who killed the electric car

[crockett]

Finally got around to watching that movie and I'd highly suggest everyone should watch it. I always found it Interesting that Electric cars have been around for years and years but it always seemed like the auto industry fought them.

Seems that was true..

A interesting fact from the film that I never knew was 100 years ago, there were more electric cars on the road than gas powered cars.

I kinda wondered what happened to the EV cars that they made in the 90's I always assumed they stopped making them because they didn't work. Well seems they worked great and it was the powers that be that didn't want them to work.

The film is well worth the watch.

http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/

[notabook]

George Bush did it.

[emjay]

Yes, watching all those brand new EV1's getting destroyed made quite an impression...

[Jensen]

thinking of getting the toyota prius.. hybrid car... to bad its starting at $46000 here and I see its $22000 in the US :/

[Brad Gosse]

GREAT documentary!

[crockett]

Originally Posted by notabook

George Bush did it.

He actually played a key role in it, but wasn't him alone. Key point of interest on George Bush's role is I think anyone with a brain can figure out Bush is nothing more than a lobbyist for big oil/gas industry.

With electric cars there is no more need for oil and gas companies or at least not the demand there is today. Hence the reason they push hydrogen and ethanol because it gives big oil and gas companies a product to sell and a chance to corner the market because the technology isn't here today.

Meanwhile electric cars could have already been mass produced..

[RawAlex]

It is a nice documentary, but it is a bit loaded on one side.

What really killed (and continues to kill) the electric car is a combination of:

1) Poor battery life, long recharge times,
2) That pesky problem that americans want to drive more than 30 miles per day
3) That pesky problem that americans sometimes want to drive to another state, to the beach, or whatever on an occassional basis.
4) The current electric power grid isn't up to handling millions of cars getting plugged in every night.
5) Americans live in places with extreme cold and other issues that make an electric car all but useless.

Mass production of electric cars just wouldn't be happening. Until battery technology improves dramatically, the rest is pretty much a moot point.

Just remember too: in many states, the electricity is generated by burning either coal, natural gas, or oil based products. As much as a plug in electric car would be a nice thing from a personal responsibly point of view, the reality is in those areas, it would actually take more oil per mile driven with an electric car than with a current car.

An interesting documentary, yes... but a little short on showing both sides of the issue.

[Big_D]

fuel = money

[tornell]

old

check out : http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/

[crockett]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

It is a nice documentary, but it is a bit loaded on one side.

What really killed (and continues to kill) the electric car is a combination of:

1) Poor battery life, long recharge times,
2) That pesky problem that americans want to drive more than 30 miles per day
3) That pesky problem that americans sometimes want to drive to another state, to the beach, or whatever on an occassional basis.
4) The current electric power grid isn't up to handling millions of cars getting plugged in every night.
5) Americans live in places with extreme cold and other issues that make an electric car all but useless.

Mass production of electric cars just wouldn't be happening. Until battery technology improves dramatically, the rest is pretty much a moot point.

Just remember too: in many states, the electricity is generated by burning either coal, natural gas, or oil based products. As much as a plug in electric car would be a nice thing from a personal responsibly point of view, the reality is in those areas, it would actually take more oil per mile driven with an electric car than with a current car.

An interesting documentary, yes... but a little short on showing both sides of the issue.

Where did 30 miles come in? The EV1 with todays batteries could go 300 miles on a charge. Hybrid cars of today are supposed to have I think it's a 7 year battery life. Most people don't own a new car 7 years.

I also don't think the newer batteries have the same issue with cold as older lead based batteries. However I'm not 100% on that. I agree with the power grid issue and the travel out of state aspect but over time the power grid issue would be updated. The long distance traveling is the only major disadvantage I can see with them.

[Elli]

If people are buying "smart" cars for their daily hopping around their local area and short commutes, then why wouldn't they buy electric cars? The argument that there isn't a market for them simply doesn't fly.

[LiveDose]

There is too much money in oil. Gas burning cars are being protected...

[Dollarmansteve]

I have three words for everyone: Free Market Economy.

If electric cars made any kind of economic sense they would exist. Oil is CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP, cheaper than electricity... and unless you have a tree permenantly shoved up your ass, no rational thinking economic actor will for over the extra dough for an electric car - our economy would break down if people became irrational like this.

[slapass]

The thing I am waiting for is ethanol cars. Brazil is almost all "Flex" so they can use gasoline or ethanol. The biggest manufactorer here is GM. So why can't the US do that? It is pretty cool to see a huge rush hour with almost zero smell or smog. The taxis all use methane but that is probably harder to get going.

I always thought the issue with electric cars was the making of the batteries is really a horrible environmental deal so it was hard for the green movement to support them?

[Dollarmansteve]

Originally Posted by slapass

The thing I am waiting for is ethanol cars. Brazil is almost all "Flex" so they can use gasoline or ethanol. The biggest manufactorer here is GM. So why can't the US do that? It is pretty cool to see a huge rush hour with almost zero smell or smog. The taxis all use methane but that is probably harder to get going.

I always thought the issue with electric cars was the making of the batteries is really a horrible environmental deal so it was hard for the green movement to support them?

Ethanol is fine as long as you prefer to fuel your car with corn rather than eat it. The price of corn meal and corn-based products will skyrocket as a larger %age of the corn crop is devoted to ethanol production.

There was more corn grown in the US than ever last season, ie supplies have skyrocketed, but the price for corn has also increased because the supply of corn available for food has dimished. Go try and buy corn tortillas in mexico..

There is no magical way to get away from oil - as one of the most simple economic truisms says "There's no such thing as a free lunch".

P.S. - The actual answer is to PUT LESS CARS ON THE ROAD!!!!!!!!!

Every car on the road means resources have been used (ie oil - as it is a major input at every stage of industry). I swear I am going to punch the next dumb-ass celebrity who steps up to a podium and says "Oh, I drive a Prius". If anyone actually cared about the environment THEY WOULD RIDE A FUCKING BIKE!

[scardog]

Nobody, it is alive and well!
250 mile range. This is awesome!

http://www.teslamotors.com

[DateDoc]

Originally Posted by Jensen

thinking of getting the toyota prius.. hybrid car... to bad its starting at $46000 here and I see its $22000 in the US :/

When they 1st came out they could not keep them in stock and they were selling above sticker price. Now dealers have inventory on hand and can't get rid of it. They were leasing them for $249/mo. not long ago and I'd bet you can get one for even less than 22k these days.

[V_RocKs]

Originally Posted by crockett

Hybrid cars of today are supposed to have I think it's a 7 year battery life. Most people don't own a new car 7 years.

Imagine trying to sell a car after 5 years of use when the owner knows he can only drive it another 2 years.

Also the batteries degrade over time too. So you won't drive as far as before and you will have less pep.

[jonesonyou]

Originally Posted by Dollarmansteve

I have three words for everyone: Free Market Economy.

If electric cars made any kind of economic sense they would exist. Oil is CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP, cheaper than electricity... and unless you have a tree permenantly shoved up your ass, no rational thinking economic actor will for over the extra dough for an electric car - our economy would break down if people became irrational like this.

When have drastic economic changes occured and what were their causes and effect?

Oil will be used until its all gone...

[ztik]

Electric cars suck. Like other people have said, long charge times, short drive times.

Hydrogen is a good fuel, but its very hard to store. It currently takes up too much to be effective.

Gas is just all around the best for now.

Come out with an electric car tht will run for 300 miles, and charge in 10~ minutes for another 300 miles, you can bet you will see them all the roads. But for now, they are a POS.

[ztik]

Originally Posted by V_RocKs

Imagine trying to sell a car after 5 years of use when the owner knows he can only drive it another 2 years.

Also the batteries degrade over time too. So you won't drive as far as before and you will have less pep.

In order to get max battery life, you need to drain one all the way, then charge it all the way. I guess they could possibly fix that problem by running 2 dif batteries that switch back and fourth. But that may be too heavy or take up too much room.

[shoeaholicanon]

that's interesting.
im guessing it was more expensive then than gas cars perhaps?

[Elli]

Originally Posted by scardog

Nobody, it is alive and well!
250 mile range. This is awesome!

http://www.teslamotors.com

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/04...t-wont-be-met/

"It is important to note that at greater than 200 miles, the Tesla Roadster will still have the highest range of any production EV in history by a large margin, and we will be working hard to deliver even better range in the coming months.

The original premise of this groundbreaking car was that its range would be high enough that you would not have to worry about charging during a typical day, even if you have a long commute, take the car out for dinner and chores, or even take the scenic route home. Once home, you plug it in - just like you would your cell phone - and by the time you're ready for another day, your Tesla Roadster is fully charged and ready to go. We believe that this premise is still intact with a range above 200 miles."

[scardog]

Originally Posted by Elli

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/04...t-wont-be-met/

"It is important to note that at greater than 200 miles, the Tesla Roadster will still have the highest range of any production EV in history by a large margin, and we will be working hard to deliver even better range in the coming months.

The original premise of this groundbreaking car was that its range would be high enough that you would not have to worry about charging during a typical day, even if you have a long commute, take the car out for dinner and chores, or even take the scenic route home. Once home, you plug it in - just like you would your cell phone - and by the time you're ready for another day, your Tesla Roadster is fully charged and ready to go. We believe that this premise is still intact with a range above 200 miles."

That's a shame it won't hit 250, but 200 is still a dramatic improvement on previous electric cars, and it looks pretty good too.

[stickyfingerz]

The Government has cars that run on WATER! ON WATER MAN!!

[Jensen]

Originally Posted by BusterPorn

When they 1st came out they could not keep them in stock and they were selling above sticker price. Now dealers have inventory on hand and can't get rid of it. They were leasing them for $249/mo. not long ago and I'd bet you can get one for even less than 22k these days.

sucks that the prices are so insanly high up here... half the price or more is pretty extreme

[madawgz]

yep, i would suggest everyone watch this movie too

its so depressing when you actually think about it

[JasonB]

great documentary. i watched it a few months ago

[tony286]

Ive got to rent it

[crockett]

Originally Posted by ztik

Electric cars suck. Like other people have said, long charge times, short drive times.

Hydrogen is a good fuel, but its very hard to store. It currently takes up too much to be effective.

Gas is just all around the best for now.

Come out with an electric car tht will run for 300 miles, and charge in 10~ minutes for another 300 miles, you can bet you will see them all the roads. But for now, they are a POS.

Hydrogen is one of the worst of all the fuels. It doesn't get anywhere close to the distance per mile as even gas gets today. That and it's more expensive than gas let alone they can't put enough in the car to travel far.

The hydrogen fuel car they had in this move only had a 100 mile range.

[KustomKowgurl]

Gimme my truck with one of these options and then we'll talk - until then, I'm stickin with my baby

[crockett]

Originally Posted by shoeaholicanon

that's interesting.
im guessing it was more expensive then than gas cars perhaps?

No according to the movie the EV1 was something like 22k back in the late 90's. They also had a waiting list to buy them and had to force people to give them up because GM only leased them.

Just to show you who wanted them gone, a group of activists wanted to buy back the last remaining cars because GM was destroying them all. They offered GM 1.3 million (the buy back lease price for all the cars think it was 70 of them) and GM turned them down.

If you watch the movie they had a few actors Tom Hanks and Mel Gibson whom both had them and loved them.

Personally I've always watched the hybrids and electric cars and it always seemed to me that the car companies went out of their way not to sell them to you. The cars were always ugly and you almost never saw any advertisements for them until the last few years.

There is a market for them but the car companies don't want to produce them.

[crockett]

Originally Posted by KustomKowgurl

Gimme my truck with one of these options and then we'll talk - until then, I'm stickin with my baby

Ford offered the Ranger as electric in the 90's.

[Marketing Yoda]

Originally Posted by crockett

There is a market for them but the car companies don't want to produce them.

Wrong. You're definition of 'a market' and a 200 billion dollar company's definition of 'a market' are not the same. 50 tree hugging celebrities is not 'a market'.

If you were GM and invested however many billions of dollars in developing the EV-1, would you want to sell all of that invested intellectual property for a measly 1.3 million dollars?

No company intersted in staying in busness would want to sell expensive (therefore low-volume) low-margin (or even money losing) cars - it's the exact opposite of how to run a profitable company. A company has limited resources and to devote a portion of those limited resources to a product with virtually no financial or R&D benefit is insanity. GM, for example, has shareholders to answer to.

[Red Ezra]

i watched that movie and loved it - big oil killed the electric car - that cant sell oil with them so they moved their power against them - crushed them out of existance - i think japan will bring them back - someone said something about new hybrids being plug ins - sounds like a blast formt he past

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Marketing Yoda

Wrong. You're definition of 'a market' and a 200 billion dollar company's definition of 'a market' are not the same. 50 tree hugging celebrities is not 'a market'.

If you were GM and invested however many billions of dollars in developing the EV-1, would you want to sell all of that invested intellectual property for a measly 1.3 million dollars?

No company intersted in staying in busness would want to sell expensive (therefore low-volume) low-margin (or even money losing) cars - it's the exact opposite of how to run a profitable company. A company has limited resources and to devote a portion of those limited resources to a product with virtually no financial or R&D benefit is insanity. GM, for example, has shareholders to answer to.

They had something like 4 thousand people on the waiting list and the car was already through R&D. As it was a product on the sales floor buy with a very limited supply. That was 4k people with out even much of an advertising campaign.

[Marketing Yoda]

Originally Posted by crockett

They had something like 4 thousand people on the waiting list and the car was already through R&D. As it was a product on the sales floor buy with a very limited supply. That was 4k people with out even much of an advertising campaign.

Ford and GM sell 40,000 - 50,000 trucks EACH per MONTH. 4000 vehicles might be a market if you're Ferrari or Lambo, but it's an insignificant drop in the bucket to someone who sells 2 - 3 million total units a year.

[pornguy]

Similar things have happened to other car designers. Tucker, and delorean.

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Red Ezra

i watched that movie and loved it - big oil killed the electric car - that cant sell oil with them so they moved their power against them - crushed them out of existance - i think japan will bring them back - someone said something about new hybrids being plug ins - sounds like a blast formt he past

Well it was interesting with the fact that a big oil company bought up the battery company and the patient, but it wasn't big oil alone.

[V_RocKs]

The story parallels the story of the TV...

[Jace]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

1) Poor battery life, long recharge times,
2) That pesky problem that americans want to drive more than 30 miles per day
3) That pesky problem that americans sometimes want to drive to another state, to the beach, or whatever on an occassional basis.
4) The current electric power grid isn't up to handling millions of cars getting plugged in every night.
5) Americans live in places with extreme cold and other issues that make an electric car all but useless.

wow, i don't think you actually saw it with a response like that...all of those issues were touched on in the movie

and come on 30 miles? LOL....watch the movie, then come back, and if you watched it already, watch it again and actually pay attention

on a side note...there is a lady here in town that still has one of the original RAV4's, the electric ones, she LOVES it, and every time she is in a parade or somewhere public, she gets standing ovations from EVERYONE around

you can still buy the toyota rav4 EV
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Toyot...QQcmdZViewItem

[CamJack]

GREAT MOVIE, just saw it over the weekend. I think the strongest point was that there was virtually no maintainence or replacement parts needed for the electric car. This would've crippled automotive part stores, oil change companies and service departments. This all equates into hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars. The movie did a GREAT job putting various groups on trial for the death of the electric car. They did end up getting the battery up to 300 miles per charge. I'd buy one of these cars tomorrow.

You have companies like Exxon with their net income up 75% to $9.92 billion, people are starving in the US. and soldiers are dying for oil in Iraq.

[Fabien]

There is a model which doesn't require a battery charge (well rarely). It's actually recharged with the wheels turning and the brakes applied.

[Meeper]

All I know is im about to start riding my bike to work with these gas prices.

[Dollarmansteve]

Originally Posted by Fabien

There is a model which doesn't require a battery charge (well rarely). It's actually recharged with the wheels turning and the brakes applied.

Regenerative braking isn't that efficient. If it were greater than 100% then the car would be a perpetual motion machine - which violates.. ohh.. just a couple of the fundamental laws of physics.

I can't wait til someone comes in here and starts talking about zero point energy, et al.

[Elli]

Originally Posted by Dollarmansteve

Regenerative braking isn't that efficient. If it were greater than 100% then the car would be a perpetual motion machine - which violates.. ohh.. just a couple of the fundamental laws of physics.

I can't wait til someone comes in here and starts talking about zero point energy, et al.

A friend of mine reviews cars for a local car mag, and he gave me a ride in the Lexus whatever. It was a hybrid with the battery recharging from the brake friction and during coasting. That thing had BALLS and drove like a dream. But the price tag was a weeeeee bit out of reach for what it was. It was still mostly gas-driven, but the recharging meter was fun to watch.

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by Dollarmansteve

Regenerative braking isn't that efficient. If it were greater than 100% then the car would be a perpetual motion machine - which violates.. ohh.. just a couple of the fundamental laws of physics.

I can't wait til someone comes in here and starts talking about zero point energy, et al.

Wouldnt be 100% perpetual though, down hill coasting would be energy from the power of gravity. Why hasnt someone made a vehicle the same as they are now for electric, with hood roof and trunk covered with solar panels?

[Drake]

It's just a matter of time. When oil runs out we'll have no choice and the market will adjust in favor of alternatives.

[Dollarmansteve]

Originally Posted by Mike33

It's just a matter of time. When oil runs out we'll have no choice and the market will adjust in favor of alternatives.

We'll never run out of oil. The last drop of oil will be infinitely expensive (or completely worthless)

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Elli

If people are buying "smart" cars for their daily hopping around their local area and short commutes, then why wouldn't they buy electric cars? The argument that there isn't a market for them simply doesn't fly.

I would buy one for daily commute. It's 13 miles to and back from work a day. One charge a week, that's all it would take.