What news channel does you watching? - their family happy when their son blowing up himself and some innocent people - they know what he is doing and support him.This is not innocent bystanders and they deserve to expel.
This is only way to fight terror.

This is exactly the kind of thinking that keeps the violence going.
First of all, you talk about "fighting terrorism with force". Now, that force - which is largely directed towards innocent people - is considered the same as terrorism by the victims of it, who, in turn, do the same thing, and keep it going.
Secondly, has that force you are talking about been working for the past years? No, apparently, since the conflict is still there. So how about trying a different tactic?
Third, you talk about the dangers for Israeli's. Now, you should know that during the course of the conflict over 10 times as many Palestinians have died. So, according to your reasoning, they would have even more reason to continue killing innocent people than Israel.
And, finally, don't you see that the exact reason that a serious. realistic, terror free Palestinian leadership doesn't emerge, is that no real attempts for real dialog are being made by Israel? (not to mention the fact that just about all leaders of Palestinian organisations - even peaceful ones - get assassinated by the Israeli military)

Really, both the Israelians and the Palestinians are using the exact same reasoning to not make progress but remain in the current situation.

Apart from your obviously wrong assumption (how many Palestinians do you know exactly? I know quite a few and most of them just want the violence to end), you are also forgetting one thing:
Do the Israeli's not react in exactly the same way when their military destroys offices and homes, or kills Palestinians?

Now, why exactly do you think the Palestinians are wrong for doing what they consider as "defending their lands", while Israel is right when doing exactly the same?

Man, I am not tacking about Israeli and Palestinians living outside the region, as I sad before - make a trip - tack to? real" people who live there and then open you mouths - you do not know nothing what happen there...

You are comparing one errant attack to a 50 year continuous war zone? Whatever your reasoning, it doesn't make sense to me. Why would New Yorkers leave? Maybe some did, but that type of attack isn't a usual occurance. There are probably a lot of people that have left NYC to get their wives and kids away from the crime though.

Point taken that you are single. In light of that I don't blame you for making the decision for yourself to stay and fight. I don't mean to be a smartass here, but wouldn't that be one way to put an end to hostilities in the region? Sorry, I had to say that.

But I will also add that for me there would probably come a time when I would be hard-pressed not to go make a better life for myself somewhere else. I wonder if you can imagine the standard of living we enjoy over here? Millions of people all ready to spend over $100 on a pair of running shoes, over $1000 on TV's, etc etc. We're ripe for the picking for smart marketers and business men.



As for dealing with the suicide bombers, how do you punish someone who has blown himself to pieces? (and taken 20 or 30 others with him) ??
Answer: you can't. But I'm sure such a person was no-doubt councelled by others, probably said goodbye to his family and went off (literally) with their blessing. So yes, finding the person's family and mowing down their homes and ruining their lives is certainly one way of dealing with the problem.

But in the end there can probably only be either of two choices.... either Isreal vacates the premises, or an all-out war serves to anihilate everyone in the region.
Which is the better of the two?

I resent your language but I do apologize for being insensitive an inaccurate.
The UK had more of its share of terrorism.

I have basically said the same thing repeatedly. The tactics being used by both sides, are doomed to fail, and only exacerbate the hatred.

In addition some of the tactics used by Israel's military are considered to be War Crimes in contravention of International Law. Terrorism is a crime also but does not fall under the category of War Crimes.

Thus the tactics of Israel will not only excerbate the hatred, but they are becoming known as War Criminals.

Great post

Include in these list religious clerics who support this and all propaganda machine (Palestinian radio and TV) and you will find a way to deal with this (like it was in 1980 - 1990)

Actually I knwo he is wrong In a recent poll 60 % of palestinians support terrorst bombings... I wouldnt call that relitively few

There is a diffrence between using badly organized fanatics to blow up military instillations etc and using fanatics to blow up women and children

International law is a joke. US cross this law some many times and nothing happen

What the US military has done, more than once, is punish our own for violations of the rules of War.

Can you account for a single time that this has happened with a member of the Israeli military.

One recent event comes to mind; when an Israeli Tank Commander gunned down civilians, because he mistakenly thought a curfew was still in place. It would be immaterial if a curfew was in place or not. It is a War Crime to intentionally shoot unarmed civilians.

Has the Israeli military Court Martialed this Tank Commander? Will he be put in Prison when he is courtmartialed.

It is true that we will not allow our military to be tried in an International Court, and this is as it should be (because of multiple reasons), but we do Court Martial and imprison our own, when we learn of a War Crime.

Actually they have inquired into the mistake and court marcialed him..

But you are a past soldier you have to admit that despite how careful you are mistakes do happen and innocent people get killed.... But surely you cannot tell me that its the same thing as targeting civilians on purpose

How do you tell who's an unarmed civilian and who's a nutcase coming to try and kill you over there?

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh
In Latin America too or Vietnam, Laos, Kamboja?

no probs

can't change my language though ... it's the way my mother raised me <img src="images/icons/1bluewinky.gif">

Unintentional deaths occur in any conflict. As I understand the event; this Tank Commander did not make a mistake. He intentionally fired upon unarmed civilians (as I recall killing one or more children) in broad daylight, because he thought a curfew was still in place (it may have been), but curfew or not, this is a clear cut case of a War Crime and if the men under his command fired also, they too are guilty of a War Crime.

Maybe you can find out for me what punishment he received? In this country he would be confined to our military prison for a large number of years.

I forgot...are you not in the USA?

Please link me to an article... What I remember was that the commender thought the curfew was not lifted as you said, but that he saw a group of people approaching his position.. When a hostline enemy (as he thought) approaches you, you fire. As you know often its not easy to tell if someone is a militant or a child, palestinian gunmen do not wear uniforms have been known to shoot behidn groups of civilians etc.

What punisment received this B-52 pilots who attack civilian targets and kill a lot of people with napalm in Vietnam, I think only appolgy from Macknamara recently.

My question would be Why are unarmed civilians approaching a tank?? It leads me to believe that some people over there are brain dead. Really, as an unarmed civilian in that region I am 100% sure I would stay the hell at home rather than walking up to tanks.

In light of that, as the tank commander I would wonder what these brain-dead civilians were doing walking up to my tank. Are they going to toss a grenade down my hatch? How close should I let them get?

Solution: Unarmed innocent bystanders should stay away from tanks in a war zone.

Maybe, maybe they misunderstood, however I know that the Israilies fired several shots into the air first before firing once into the croud to disperce them

Interesting.
I don't see where a court marial would be warranted then. I simply can not figure out why average joe citizen would be out walking around and risking this kind of incident when they could just as easily stay at home and tend the chores, mind the kids, screw the wife etc. Doesn't make sense.

If more people stayed at home in that region there would be far less violence occuring.
Stay the fuck at home.

mic, why going that far to Vietnam ?
Only a couple of weeks ago, an American plane bombarded and killed dozens of Afghans who were attending a wedding.
Is this right ? No !
Was it a war crime ? No, it wasn't.
I'm very sorry for those who died, I really do, but I have no doubt in my mind that the pilot did not mean to kill those people.

Israel NEVER sends its troops to kill Palestinian intentionally.
NEVER HAPPENED - NEVER WILL.
I wish all the terrorists lived in Terrorville and not in the middle of civilian population.
That could have prevented a lot of deaths.
The Palestinian terrorists use the civilians as a shield and don't have the guts to face the army face to face, knowing they will defeated instantly.
They only have the guts to brainwash young teenager, poison their minds and send them to kill woman & children.

Well...I do not know any thing about this specific incident.

I can tell you that it is estimated that millions of South Vietnamese civilians (a bigger loss than North Vietnamese civilians) lost their lives during the Vietnam War.

Non combatants are always killed in war, intentionally and unintentionally. This was a full blown war with the military of conflicting Nations engaged in battle.

In this kind of war civilians often become intentional targets and we targeted civilians in some instances in both Vietnam and Korea on a far lesser scale, than we did during the Second World War.

I can also tell you that I personally know that many of our soldiers were Court Martialed for War Crimes, ranging from rape, murder, killing detainees, and POW's and etc.

What I said before - International Law is a joke. US are main violator of this law. US use it only when they need something. They kill thousands civilians and bystanders in recent years and nothing happen. (Latin America, Yugoslavia, Asia, Middle East)

Intentionally and Unintentionally makes all the diffrence in my opinion

Of course it makes all the difference.
Intentional killings of innocent people = immoral war crimes, plain murder.
Unintentional killings of innocent people = tragedy, but it's not a war crime.

They had been under curfew for several days. They were out getting water, food, etc., the necessities for life.

There were literally hundreds of people outside shopping in open markets. As I recall the incident; the ones that the Tank Commander fired upon and killed were all members of the same family. A father and his children, I cannot recall if the mother was present or not. Whether or not they came to close to the Tank Commaner's tank, I do not know, but the excuse given at the time was that the Tank Commander thought the curfew was still in effect is the reason he opened fire. The Israel military admitted the Tank Commander was in the wrong.

In other words, the way I recall the incident is this: It was broad daylight, hundreds of people were out shopping, but this particular Tank was around the corner from the main area of shopping, this Palestinian family came out to do some shopping and the Tank Commander fired upon them because he thought the curfew was still in place.

If someone can find a link with the specifics of the event please post it.

I did a search and this is what I came up with.

This is a report by by CNN's Christiane Amanpour:

Not very informative.

There was video of the incident on CNN at the time (which I saw at the time), but the video only showed the people shopping in an open market. The tank was out of sight and around a corner on a different street, but you could hear the Tank fire, and see people on the street that were shopping, ducking and scattering, although they were not in the line of fire from the Tank.

I found this from a Palestinian soucrce.

Just FYI B-52's are not used to drop Napalm bombs.

.

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Is this a joke? Israel wanting to improve Palestinian life style?

Krome, what are the roots of British anti semitism?

Dont ask me I am as thick as pig shit. Educate me..

Ok, my mistake B-52 was used for carpet bombing, for napalm attack it was US F-100 Super Sabre.

This one from Russel report :
One of the important targets aimed at by the American planes is the medical network - up to 31 August 1967, they have destroyed 127 hospitals and clinics. In Hanoi, during a raid on 21 August 1967, US planes fired an aerosol missile against a hospital situated in the heart of the city right alongside the city?s big cathedral, and during a raid on 17 November 1967 the Bach Mai central hospital, with 1,000 beds, the biggest in the country, was hit with two 750-lb. bombs and a large quantity of pellet bombs. The centre for the treatment and study of leprosy at Quynh Lap, situated on a beach, far away from any other populated area, has been attacked thirty-nine times; the Quang Binh provincial hospital thirteen times and that of Ha Tinh, seventeen times. . .
In Quang Binh province, the small fishing commune of Ngu Thuy with less than 3,000 inhabitants (visited by several Japanese and French investigation teams) has been attacked over 1,150 times in two years Five hundred and sixty-one schools have been bombed, 170 of them during the first six months of this year; 230 churches, three seminaries and twenty-three pagodas have been destroyed up to 30 June 1967. On 27 September 1967 at 7.30 A.M., the day after classes reopened following the summer recess, four US jets, swooping in from the sea, fired rockets and dropped four CBUS (about 2,400 pellet bombs) on the first and second degree schools of Ha Fu (Ha Trung district of Thanh Hoa province) killing thirty-three pupils from eight to twelve years and wounding thirty more, including two teachers.
According to American estimates (the Pepper Report) there have been 250,000 children killed

How about International law?
Another good one :International Tribunal

And your point is?

If your point is that the US kills civilians. This is nothing new. I have stated that in war, civilians are sometimes unintentionally killed, and are sometimes intentionally targeted as policy.

The same as before:
International Law is a joke. US are main violator of this law. US use it only when they need something. They kill thousands civilians and bystanders in recent years and nothing happen.

I have already stated that the US will not allow its military to be submitted too any international tribunal. I have also stated that this is policy for a variety of good reasons.

"Good reasons" for whom? For US military criminals?
In this case US suppose to never mention other countries as war criminals, as you did in Israel case.

Do not mention International law - there is no such a law and never been.