Interesting post Trenton, while I am somewhat aware that "Jihad" can be used in different ways, maybe you can explain why it is most commonly used by Muslims to mean a Holy War? Is this a perverted use of "Jihad" or not?

I'm encouraged to see that there are some decent human beings here that do not think that putting an explosive device on your body and marching to the nearest pizzeria, discotheque, cafe', bus stop or school, detonating it and killing scores of civilians, children & babies is a legitimate thing.

I want to add another thing.
I am not on the pr minister of Israel and believe it or not, I have lots of criticism regarding Israel's action in many issues - including the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.
I guess that I'm not different than any citizen in any country in the world.

Since I was a teenager, like many Israelis, I was dreaming about the day when we and the Palestinians can finally reach a peace agreement.
I am willing to sacrifice a lot for peace, and when I say a lot I mean land, money and practically anything except my life in an independent state as a free man.

During my reading here, I saw lies, half truths, slander, hate but some decency too.
Some of the hate is originated by ignorance, some by just not knowing the facts good enough, some by anti semitism and some probably by KKK membership.

My grandparents came to Israel after surviving 6 (!!!) death camps in Poland and Czechoslovakia.
Prior to Israel establishment in 1948, the UN decided to divide the land: half goes to Israel, the other half to the Palestinians.
Israel accepted the plan, the Arabs didn't and the day after the Palestinians and 5 Arab armies including Lebanon, Syria, Jordan & Egypt invaded Israel in order to destroy it.
They were bigger in force and fire power - but we won.
Back then, there were no "territories", and between 48-67 the Palestinian were living in their homes under Jordanian (in the west bank) & Egyptian (in the Gaza strip) rule.
Those dear Arab countries didn't lift a finger for their poor Palestinian "brothers".
They never gave them a state (in their own territory), they didn't provide them with proper housing and they kept them poor.

In 1967 the Arabs decided to try and destroy Israel again with 4 armies - but once again Israel won the war and captured Jordanian owned west bank and Egyptian owned Gaza strip.
There was never a state called Palestine.
Palestinians were living under their Jordanian and Egyptians rulers.
In 1973 Egypt and Syria attacked Israel once again and lost again.

You can't attack another country time after time and then cry that your territories were lost (after YOU initiated the war in the first place).
It's like the joke about the guy who murdered both his parents and then asked mercy from the judge because he's an orphan.

Now, I know that many in the world are sick and tired of hearing about "The Situation in the Middle East".
Well, if you're sick about it, you can only imagine how we feel about it.
For you it may be 2 minutes of TV news reporting while for us it's the 24/7 reality for the past 2 years.

When I was given the right to vote, 12 years ago, I voted for the labor party which called for a peace process with the Palestinians.
In 1993 the Oslo accords were signed.
In 1994 the first Palestinian suicide bomber appeared in our doorstep.
Between 1994 to 2000 there were many suicide bombings made by Palestinians although we already started the peace process.

In 1996 there were still suicide bombings, but I wanted peace so badly that I voted again to the labor party.
In 1999, there were another elections.
Again, I wanted peace so much, that this time I voted to the extreme left party called Merrets.
In 2000 Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak, Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and US president Bill Clinton met in a peace summit in Camp David.

Now, I don't want to give you the Israeli side view.
See what the Americans are saying, and when I say Americans I mean both Clinton and his aids & Bush and his aids.
All of them agree that Israel put on the table the most serious, generous offers ever made by Israel - but Arafat was not willing even to discuss it.
The summit collapsed.

A couple of months later, the Palestinians started their terror war known as the Intifada (it's an Arab word).
Israel tried to restrain itself but nothing helped.
More and more suicide bombers came into Israel in one purpose: killing as many innocent Israelis as possible in restaurants, cafes, hotels, markets etc.
When you live in a reality where your citizens are being murdered in the streets on a daily basis you have no other choice but reacting with force.

If any of the members here would have been in the position of suffering from terrorism on a daily basis, I can promise you that your distinguished governments would have done the very same thing.
The US was attacked.
3000 civilian lives were lost.
The entire world saw how the US took Afghanistan and turned it into rubble.
Many innocent Afghans lost their lives in the US campaign, but they did so because their government assisted Osama Bin Laden to murder tounsands of Americans.
I also know one thing for sure.
No American pilot ever killed an innocent Afghan intentionally while OBL and his Afghan counter parts did everything in their power to kill as many Americans as possible.


I am very sorry when innocent Palestinians lose their lives although they're my enemies while when innocent Israelis are being killed the Palestinians are celebrating in the streets (exactly as they celebrated on 9/11).
When it comes to defending my life from the next suicide bomber I'm giving my government a green light to do whatever it takes to defend my life.

I'm sure that when the Palestinians will understand that Israel can't be extorted or intimidated and when they will stop the terror campaign after it brought them nothing - then and only then I will be willing to sit around the negotiating table.

I am old so it is not going to happen in my life time, and I doubt that it will happen in your life time. The hatred is to deep.

The wheel will continue to turn.

Well Pathfinder, I understand what you're saying but I don't agree with the conclusion.
The hatred is too deep now, I agree, nobody trusts nobody, that's true too.
I don't know how old are you, but I think that when Arafat will not be the leader anymore, and after terrorism will be nothing but painful history, the Israeli public (and myself) will elect someone which wiling to take risks on the path to peace.
It will not happen today and probably not tomorrow, but I expect it to happen in 3-5 years.

Israel will forvever be a thorn in the side of militant and fundamentalist Islam.

So long as it exists, it will be attacked.

And do you think Islamic Extremism is going away anytime soon?

Seems to me to be spreading.

What I am worried about is how sucide bombing have become
a tradition in palestinian culture.
suicide bombing is considered a nobel thing,
these are brian washed killers like charels manson family,
boys 16-20 brainwahsed by muslim preachers,
and who are sent to cause death and destruction to israel.

It is the palestinian society, leadership, and thier anti semitic supporters around the world, who promote terror,
It is financed by Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia,
all of these countries are now after long range missile,
and chemical biological, nuclear weaponary, where they can threat also Europe and USA.
That is why a war agiants terrorism is going on,
I am not worried
USA, NATO, Israel, and India will win the war.

What about Canada?

I totally agree with you dada.
It's easy to berry the head in the sand and not looking around your square mile neighborhood.
Irresponssible governments are trying to posses weapons of mass destruction that can hit the US, Europe and other places around the world.
In 1981 Israel destroyed Iraq's nuclear plant that was built in order to provide Saddam Hussein with a nuclear option.
Can you imagine the situation today if Saddam had 50 nuclear war heads ?
Iran Is building a new nuclear plant in Bushar.
Libya is also maximizing its efforts to gain nuclear power.

Canada is part of NATO

i would like to see whoever started this fuckin thread get a fuckin beating

Actually from my perspective it has been daily, weekly, monthly, year after fucking YEAR for the past 35+ years now. THAT is why most N. Americaners are sick of the Middle East. 2 minutes of news? Hardly. We've been watching the endless mindless desctruction for decades.

I know, living it is a whole world of difference, but the whole focus of my obvious anger is that the people in that region can't just get over their shit and raise their babies and live in fucking peace for once.


There's one other small thing to consider here. It may not be a big thing, but to some people it is. There are many many famous religious landmarks in your region, much to see that holds a lot of meaning for Christians and Jews around the world. While there is so much fighting, no one from anywhere else in the world feels safe taking their family on a tour of the holy land. No, before anyone laughs, it very much is an unfair thing for a lot of people. Peaceful people that would otherwise go there and enjoy those world treasures. Who the hell want's to go there as a tourist when you or your family may get blown up in a cafe or crushed by a tank while sleeping at a bed-and-fucking-breakfast?

I have been listening to it since the UN partition. It has been going on so long and may be the reason why Nations (including the USA) provide little more than lip service to "peace".

Of course the USA does also provide Israel with several billions of dollars in aid and weapons of war, and also provides some aid to the Palestinians, but has been mouthing "peace" since the partition.

Well CDSmith, I agree that it's very unthoughtful and actually rude of us to be murdered in cafe's and by that - destroying your trip plans.
Now seriously, it's true that there are many extremely holy landmarks for Christians, Muslims and Jews here, but for me the most holy, valuable precious thing is the life of myself, my family and my people.
No historic landmark can match that.

I agree it's not a good time for trips around the region.
In fact, I live my life totally differently than what I used to a couple of years ago.
I don't leave home if I don't have to.
I'm doing my shopping on a single day and in a less crowded hour.
I'm not going to shopping malls, markets, cafe's unless they have security.
I lost my mainstream job a few months ago due the economic situation.
Still looking for a new one but no luck yet.
To be short, life sucks.

I actually feel like a pawn in some larger game.
I'm trying to survive this period and hope for a better time.

Israel won the God given lands in a war, they should keep the lands.


Should we give California back to Mexico ?

How about giving most of Irag back to Turkey ?

Should the separtists in Spain get their own country ?

Should China be forced to give up Tiben? well i thick China should :)

Well actually you are a pawn in a much larger game. I would not allow my family to remain in the type of danger that exists there.

Have you ever considered moving to a different country?

Sorry, when I say "you" (felafel) I mostly mean your countries, the people of the Middle East region. Not you personally.

And when I say the people of the world are mad at you, well, you can hopefully understand why. We have concerns that you, your respective countries/governments, are going to start world war three. That is another item towards the reason why we (the west & most of the rest of the world) have absolutely had it up to the hairline with you (the region).

Just so you know where my anger comes from. I wish you well (you personally) and the same for any innocents living in the area. I don't understand why you don't take up your family and move to a safer country. If your life and your family are as important as you say, surely moving should be a serious consideration.

Very hard to imagine.
I don't want to go anywhre although it's tough.
Even if I wanted to leave (and again, I don't) where will I go ?
Is there something better waiting for me anywhere ?
If I'll come to your neighbourhood, will you accept me with open arms and a big smile or will you curse the moment I landed in your block ?
I think I know the answer.

Bottom line: I have nowhere to go.
This is my country and I'll stick to it even if it's bad.

You may move to Canada - here nobody care where you came from and I live in the north of Toronto - many Jews and people from Israel live here.

I say keep the killing going. If it looks like peace may break out, then send in the CIA to get em all pissed off at each other again. Makes CNN worth watching. I'm a child of the MTV generation, and feel neither highs nor lows. But I just love to watch shit blowin' up. Sure, they kill the piss outta each other in Africa...but machetes just don't make good news clips.

And what you will be filling if somebody from your family or even you will be blow away one day as this people from WTC ? I think in this case not an MTV melody will be in your freaking head

Mic, first of all thanks for the offer :)
One of my best friends works in a big hitech company and he's in charge of an account of a big Canadian company.
He just returned from his 7th trip to Canada this year alone.
I asked him how are the Canadians and how is Canada and he told me that Canada is a beautiful country and the Canadians are great people.
So I was really impressed.
I also know that Canada has very flexible immigration rules.

But, as far as I'm concerned, a foreigner will always be considered as a foreigner.
I prefer to live with my people who love me and appreciate me.
If I'll move to another country, I think I will always be treated as an outsider and I'd hate that.
Actually I have family in the US.
After the holocaust part of my family wen to Israel and the other part to the US.
I have relatives in LA and in Chicago but I never thought of moving just because it's hard here.
I want a better life for myself here and actually I'm pretty optimistic about the 3-5 years future.

Trenton, sorry to break it to you but WEB Du Bois was a black elitist. His theories about racial equality had more to do with middle class light skinned blacks [such as himself] gaining parity with whites than the whole black "race" [to use his word] gaining parity. His concept of the "Talented Tenth" is elitist and as unAmerican as arguing for the imposition of Latin American latifundismo in the US.

Booker T Washington, which Du Bois hated, cared more for regular black people than Du Bois ever did. If anything, the "twoness" that Du Bois felt related more to his discomfort of being both black and middle class at the same time. While Washington's Atlanta Compromise sought to secure a firm economic base from which blacks can then ascend the social hierarchy after some generations [same assimilation trajectory as the Irish, the Jews, the Italians, etc] Du Bois was concerned more with blacks getting an elevated social status in society when they did not have a widespread economic base. This desire really emanated from the small percentage of blacks in the 1890's to 1920's that have achieved middle class status.

Du Bois' failed and bankrupt strategies and philosophies are unfortunately enduring--from the vulgar race baiting of Al Sharpton to the corporate shakedown shenanigans of Jesse Jackson to the sophisticated yet subsidy-addicted visions of the current NAACP.

Not if you live in Toronto. I live here last 8 years and nobody care where I live before (and I live in many countries, including US).

Frank W:

Direct and correct.

Before oslo and all of the peace accords there was a lot less violence in Israel, and I think no they will just reocuppy the west bank, sure they may suffer bad press for a couple of months but violence will die down and nobody will give a fuck

Talking like a true palestinian

It was sardonic humor foe.

If israel falls where do you think they will go next

Israel will never fall. The US will never allow it.

Yep actually it provided weapons to the Israilies mostly after the Yom Kippur war which was the 3rd or forth Arab attack on Israel, The Arabs staged a suprise attack on the holiest day of the Jewish calander .... and almost overran Israel

Never say never.

Good point, because I certainly can visualize scenarios where we should/would allow this to happen.

Israel has nukes. If it gets to that point Israel will use them and probably without too much flack from the US government. There are a lot of Jewish voters here and Christians who support Israel.

So you've pretty much got it all figured out have you? It's set in your mind that my suggestion is no good for you no matter what anyone says. Right?

Then don't sit there and say that your life and the lives of your wife and kids are most important to you. They aren't. If they were you wouldn't hesitate.

It's not only in Toronto that you'd be welcomed. All over Canada, and I'm sure most of the big U.S. cities as well, people simply wouldn't really care where you're from. You speak decent English, you're a smart guy, I'm sure you'd get along just fine and feel like anything BUT an outsider.

But don't tell me your family is important to you and then reject a direct suggestion to aid in their safety bro. It doesn't wash. You're willing to subject them to living in fear for another 3 to 5 years, never knowing if one day one of you or all of you will get blown up. Crazy.

Allah'u akbar

Yes, Israel has nukes.
They have not been fully tested yet though.

Have you considered the effect of using nuclear weapons on a peace of land only 20,000 square KM in size?

If it comes down to them possibly losing they're home they'll do whatever they have to do.

This is the Holy Land. I dont think the Jews are dumb enough to nuke a land as important as the place that God allegedly gave them as their home. I think the dirt means more to them than the dirt in your backyard does to you.

If they are under attack, there military can hold up quit well. As they nuke off there borders.

Who's dumb enough to nuke themselves??

The holy land comprises the entire region though, not just Isreal. There are many noteable sites and structures that are considered sacred to much of the Christian & Jewish world that are far outsite the border of Isreal.

Think about it. They're going to risk levelling the pyramids? The sphynx? Pollute the sea of Galilea? C'mon now. Possessing nukes comes with some responsibility, or it should.