Anthony

You sound like a Marc Laimon broken record.

Fact is that Rickson in BJJ circles is still considered one of the best, period.

You give him shit about fighting 2nd rate fighters in MMA, that's what he was given to fight. I've heard all kinds of reasons why didn't he fight Bas, from being scared (As you state), to not being offered the money he wants.

At the end of the day, we argue about it on a messageboard, and he's happy and content with what he's acomplished.

Though, the rumours are strong again, that he might fight again.

__________________

xroach

xroach

the last place i'd want to be in a bar fight is rolling around on the ground with some dude waiting for his buddies to stomp me trusting a system tailored to a sport where staples of streetfights (ie headbutt) are illegal.

dunefield

Well considering you treat BJJ as some kind of Oracle of martial arts every BJJ expert should win... Why didn't Nog submit Barnett? If anyone was close to the submission it was the knee bar at the end...

Plus whats wrong with Wrestling, Sambo or Judo? Those arts deal with submissions as well... Times have evolved and it's pretty much under one header of GRAPPLING in general now... I'm sorry but your nuthugging BJJ love has clouded up your vision...

But if you wanna keep looking back at UFC 1-5 thats fine... I'll look back further and remember a certain Judo expert armbarring Helio... After all BJJ is god gift to martial arts right?

__________________

dunefield

So you're telling me he couldn't of fought Bas outside of the ring? I mean just look at his "400-0" record... Do you really think all of those would've been competitive fights? I guess training and sparring adds up to the tally right...

__________________

Anthony

This bears some correcting, as you seem to be ignorant of what MMA fighters train in.

Matt Hughes trains under Militech Fighting Systems, Pat Militech is a BJJ Black belt. Matt Hughes himself has said, that MFS does not have belts, but if they did he would be a BJJ Black Belt.

Sakuraba is an acomplished wrestler that took up submission grappling, he beat 4 Gracies, using strikes and kicks. He's also lost repeatedly to a BJJ Black Belt, by the name of Wanderlai Silva.

Genki Sudo trains at Beverly Hills BRAZILLIAN JIU JITSU CLUB and is considered an expert. If you need the video where he goes to Westside Strangler's Tourney and triangled everyone, lmk.

Frank Shamrock's Submission skills came from the Lion's Den, which is Brother Ken owned. They LEARNED BJJ after Ken got his ass choked the fuck out in the first UFC. This is documented, by Ken himself, and a MMA book that's name escapes me, but I'll find at home.

Kid Yamamoto is the only one that does not train in BJJ, and has defeated Genki Sudo at K1 Heros. Kid is trained in Shooto that has a ground game.

This bears repeating again...


BJJ WINS AGAIN

__________________

Anthony

It is, or we wouldn't have the Martial Arts World we have now. You throw out red herrings, but won't answer the question.

If the Gracies did not start the UFC, would you still be doing katas thinking that TKD guys could kick ass?


I'm trying really hard not to call you an idiot. Where have I said that Wrestling Sambo or Judo sucked? Stop being an idiot. You can't post without throwing out red herrings.

To get it correct, it's called "Submission Wrestling" now.

BJJ was. MMA has evolved past it now, and it now is an integral part of MMA training.

You suck at debates. You can't stay on your own tangents and are everywhere with false accusations and red herrings.

__________________

dunefield

BAHAHAHAHA!!! Matt Hughes is primarily a Wrestler... Once again you're using the term BJJ so loosely... The training system is GRAPPLING in general... I guess since Pancrase take a few elements of Jiu Jitsu it's BJJ right? Josh Barnett is a BJJ practitioner as well then? Good heavens... Who would've thought the evolution of Grappling is really all called BJJ... Lets take all ground elements and call it BJJ whilst you're at it, if a BJJ fighter wins a fight by KO lets call them BJJ strikes as well...

Your nuthugging has reached new heights...

__________________

xroach

are you talking about fighting ? or performance in a controlled environment ?

Fouls: [Top]
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Anthony

You claim BJJ nuthuggers have blinders on, my facts are true. Pat Militech is a BJJ Blackbelt, and Matt Hughes quote is correct.

Please show me where in wrestling that the rear mount transition to a RNC comes from.

Thanks.

__________________

dunefield

You've never heard of Shoot wrestling? It was around way before UFC started...

Also I guess people like Inoki who submitted Spinks in an exhibition shouldn't be classified right?

Also whats wrong with doing Kata's? Is there something wrong with that? If people want to do a martial art like Karate of Kung Fu is that wrong? Just because it's not going to be useful in a cage fight you make it sound like all those years of developing discipline and improving health is useless... I'm sorry but Martial Arts in more than just about bashing the shit out of someone and proving you're the tough man...

__________________

dunefield

"Sleeper Hold" in professional wrestling

Pro-wrestling's first "sleeper hold" is thought to have been performed by Jim Londos on June 29, 1931. Suspicion was abound as to the nature of Londos' move (which had looked suspiciously like a choke against the windpipe), however Londos was quoted the next day in The New York Sun as simply having performed "a new hold I perfected which shuts off the jugular vein."

Though Londos' original move may or may not have been inspired by judo's "hadaka jime," pro-wrestling's sleeper and MMA's rear naked choke both share a similar style of execution. However, in order for the sleeper to be used in the performance art-related world of pro-wrestling, the "leverage" arm is positioned in a relaxed state so the hold is not actually applied.

Brought to light once more in the 1960s by Johnny Weaver, the sleeper became a traditional move throughout professional wrestling history. As with many potentially devastating moves in pro-wrestling, however, the sleeper's "effectiveness" in the ring has been watered-down to an almost non-threatening maneuver used solely for dramatic effect during a match.

In reality, the "effectiveness" of this move would not at all be questionable, as a properly-applied "sleeper hold" would cause an opponent to quickly lose consciousness.

__________________

Anthony

Oh yeah, shoot wrestling is your answer to MMA. It stayed in Japan, it was a novelty here in the US.

If it were not for the Gracie's, there would be no UFC, No Ultimate Figher TV show, no MMA at all.

Sure the Martial Arts is for all that stuff. It's what the McDojo's sold to parents, good on yours for believing it.

Look up the definition of Martial, you don't seem to know it.

If it wasn't about bashing someones head in, then the "marital arts" would be called "Yoga".

__________________

Anthony

RED HERRING

Matt Hughes was never a Professional (FAKE) WRESTLER.

He was an accomplished NCAA Amateur (REAL) Wrestler.

You forgot to show me where the Rear Mount came transition to RNC came from.

Nice try.

__________________

dunefield

Another bit of info...

The term rear naked choke likely originated from the technique in Jiujitsu and Judo known as the "Hadaka Jime," or "Naked Strangle." The word "naked" in this context suggests that, unlike other strangulation techniques found in Jiujitsu/Judo, this hold does not require the use of a keikogi ("gi") or training uniform.

I can't see where it says... BRAZILIAN Jiu Jitsu founded the hold?

__________________

dunefield

BAHAHAHAHA!!! I guess all type of "SOFT" types are for poofs right? I mean OMG god forbid people doing Tai Chi as well... I mean who cares about the whole spiritual aspect of things... It's all about smashing heads... Lets forget all types of tradition...

__________________

dunefield

Barnett is fake? Fujita is fake? Sakuraba is fake? Help me out here...

__________________

Anthony

Please show me where I said the RNC came from Brazillian Jiu Jitsu.

The transition that Matt Hughes used, came from BJJ. You don't understand and can't see my point because you don't train in it and done it yourself.

I've said it earlier, BJJ = Basicially Just Judo read post above.

There isn't one thing in BJJ you won't find in Judo, the differences are positional strategy, to ensure maximum leverage.

__________________

Anthony

Oh please, don't even start. You know as well as I do that they have all done works.

Don't be more of an idiot.

__________________

Anthony

Stop it already. If you want to study Tai Chi, go right ahead and delude yourself that you can fight.

I train in MMA, I have empirical data that it works.

__________________

dunefield

And? So what if they've done works... Thats ENTERTAINMENT... I guess Barnett and Sakuraba beating BJJ experts are fake as well

__________________

dunefield

Once again it's not ALL about fighting...

But hey what you've shown is ignorance

__________________

adultfora

I have been fighting and training Wing Chun for 9 years now - and still learning alot.

__________________
yes i know - im a rabbit

Anthony

You kill me dunefield, and I hope you understand I actually enjoy our back and forths with each other.

I go back to my original point that without the Gracies, Modern MMA would not exist.

__________________

Anthony

I'm still waiting for your definition of the word Martial... as in Martial Arts.

Thanks.

__________________

dunefield

Don't use the word LITERALLY!

Thanks...

__________________

dunefield

But hey since you're looking for the definition... Here ya go...

Martial arts are systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat. Today, martial arts are studied for various reasons including combat skills, fitness, self-defense, sport, self-cultivation (meditation), mental discipline, character development and building self-confidence. A practitioner of martial arts is referred to as a martial artist.



Now who would've thought there was some kind of CULTURE behind it all...

__________________

Anthony

Then why use it all?

Why not call it... New Age Arts? Explore your mind and soul class?

Or something else?

__________________

MarkTiarra

MMA for me. I go to Tae Kwon Do with my kid for the positive atmosphere and some physical training but the MMA school where I do Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is by far a greater workout. The school is www.armlock.com. I also train wherever I can in BJJ while I travel. There is a great school in Vegas and Eddie Bravo's in Burbank.

__________________

dunefield

Because of interest? See unlike yourself who wants to bash peoples heads in only... People find soft arts interesting...

__________________

Anthony

I was wondering why you were quiet for so long, I guess it took some time to find something to bolster your argument, eh?

Please provide link to it, thanks.

As for me, I am simple. I went to dictionary.com and got this...

martial art
n.

Any of several Asian arts of combat or self-defense, such as aikido, karate, judo, or tae kwon do, usually practiced as sport. Often used in the plural.

What good is practicing a punch or kick into emtpy air and thinking it will save your life one day? That's the problem with Martial Arts till BJJ came around and changed it.

__________________

Anthony

You don't know me mate. My last fight was in 2002, and I was struck first in the face.

If you think I train to bash heads in, you are wrong. I train for excercise and well being. I don't need to fight, I live in Florida, and the law for self defense is on my side.

If I can't stop someone with 13 rounds of .40 then what use is my MMA training then? LOL

__________________

Anthony

To quote a friend from ICQ...

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you do MMA, Tai Chi, TKD, etc...

Whatever you do, it's better than sitting on the couch.

__________________

MarkTiarra

This much I agree with. It's about doing something you love, getting healthy and not just physically either.

Also the argument that MMA guys make the best "real" fighters only holds true in so far as it's the closest sport version to a real fight. But the fact of the matter is that in a street fight anything can happen and usually the person with the worst intentions and the jump initially in the fight ends up walking away in better shape. Most fights don't start face to face with both guys thinking the fight is on sadly.

__________________

Pleasurepays

hey.... weren't you supposed to fight in a competition? did that happen?

dunefield

Quiet for a long time? Look at the times... Wasn't long at all... So what if i copy and pasted a DEFINITION from my source which was WIKIPEDIA!!!

People do it for many reasons... Main one being INTEREST... Why do people do Tai Chi and Capoeira because they like to?

I mean OMG people not touching each other and not hurting each other... That can't be right... It's absolutely pointless... Someone must have broken joints or lie there in a coma knocked out...

__________________

dunefield

__________________

Anthony

We come from two different worlds dunefield, and I respect your point of view.

Maybe if I gave you the reason why I started training, it might give you an insight.

I moved from the Phillipines to Southwest Philadelphia when I was 8 years old. Southwest Philly was predominantly Black with Irish and Italian. I was the only asian in my school at the time, and within the first 2 months was jumped repeatedly. My mother threw me in Judo for a few years, I got into another fight, threw the kid with Osoto Gari, but took alot of punches to the face. My mother then threw me into Gojy Ryu. From there, it's always been about fighting and learning what I needed too to win. I did take a respite for a few years and studied Aikido, and yes, got into the hippy mental part of it.

My first class with BJJ was at the Gracie Academy. All those years of training in different styles of fighthing, and weighing 260lbs had no use whatsover the first time I got on the mats with Rener Gracie.

I don't know if you can even imagine how hard it is to look at yourself, knowing you deluded yourself with a fighting prowress that really did not exist.

It's quite a wake up call. I love MMA, and BJJ before it. I think I understand now where you are coming from.

__________________

dunefield

Sounds like more than anything you're COMPETITIVE...

This quote says it all really...

__________________

dunefield

Another article I found on Wikipedia which is great...

Martial Arts Therapy (hereafter referred to as MA-Therapy) refers to the usage of martial arts as an alternative or complementary therapy for a medical disorder. This can include disorders of the body or of the mind. MA-Therapy can involve applications such as promoting kinesthetic balance in the elderly or impaired (through T'ai Chi Ch'uan), or reducing aggressiveness in specific populations (Lamarre, 1999).

While more conventional treatments such as weight training and psychotherapy are also of significant benefit, MA-Therapy can embody unique traits that other therapies don’t incorporate into their practice. For example, in children with low self-esteem, MA-Therapy can simultaneously develop areas such as self-defense skills (to defend against physical bullying), physical fitness, instructions on how to handle stressful scenarios in a physical or mental context, and self-confidence (through successful applications of martial technique, such as board-breaking or kata).

One of the crucial features of MA-Therapy is the type of martial art, as well as the lesson plans of the instructor. For instance, a boxing program with a competition-oriented instructor will not provide the same experience as a tai chi instructor who emphasizes mindfulness of one’s actions and thoughts. Although both boxing and tai chi can be defined as martial arts, their histories, emphases, and other features are drastically different. Looking specifically at karate, a kyokushin karate class (which emphasizes full-contact sparring with bare knuckles) versus a shotokan karate class (which places more emphasis on personal discipline and control than fighting) Research in this area has not yet determined which particular feature(s) of martial arts are of definite therapeutic value.

__________________

dunefield

An important issue with MA-Therapy in a psychological context is the distinction between a therapeutic approach and a martial approach to the lessons. With the evolution of martial arts into combat systems Krav Maga and combat sports (Kickboxing, Submission Wrestling, MMA), many instructors and organizations teach only martial/combative techniques with little (if any) attention to philosophical or societal issues. In other words, students may only be taught how to fight without lessons in the proper context for applying these techniques, something that is emphasized in more traditional martial art curriculums. Hypothetically, if these philosophical/societal teachings were one of the specific therapeutic factors in martial arts study, studying an art without these teachings would be of little therapeutic benefit (and arguably, detrimental to psychological health) (Reynes, 2002). Additionally, if not properly informed, a patient undergoing MA-Therapy may erroneously believe they are acquiring martial proficiency when in fact, the curriculum they are learning is unsuitable for self-defense or competitive needs.

The bit in bold points it out...

__________________

Anthony

I think it was written by a TMA apologists myself. I'm going to take it to my MA board and see what ruckus it will start.

__________________

dunefield

Well it seems the references come from qualified people...


* Psychosocial Benefits of Martial Arts: Myth or Reality? By Brad Binder, Ph.D (1999) [1]
* Abstract of Gleser Study ? ?Physical and psychosocial benefits of modified judo practice for blind, mentally retarded children: a pilot study.? [2]
* Abstract of Lamarre Study ? ?Judo--the gentle way: a replication of studies on martial arts and aggression.? [3]
* Abstract of Reynes Study - "Effect of traditional judo training on aggressiveness among young boys" [4]
* Abstract of Endresen & Olweus Study - "Participation in power sports and antisocial involvement in preadolescent and adolescent boys." [5]
* T'ai Chi as a health practice and a form of traditional Chinese medicine (from Wikipedia's T'ai Chi Ch'uan article): [6]
* A summary of the Profile of Mood States (POMS) survey, including statistical features: [7]
* An extensive listing of studies that are related to "Sports, Exercise, and Mood", including martial arts: [8] (see also Sheet #'s 6, 28, and 43 at [9]

__________________

Anthony

I will use as references for them.

__________________

dunefield

hahaha you need to realise... it's not... THIS vs. THAT... this is dealing with BEHAVIOUR aspects... what you are doing is pitting things against each other... by saying comments such as TMA people finding a way out... it's not that at all...

you need to get out of the whole competitive frame of mind and realise what you are reading...

again look at one of the BEHAVIOUR sets a person uses...

"For instance, a boxing program with a competition-oriented instructor will not provide the same experience as a tai chi instructor who emphasizes mindfulness of one’s actions and thoughts. Although both boxing and tai chi can be defined as martial arts, their histories, emphases, and other features are drastically different."

__________________

Anthony

This probably is the best part of that paragraph.

__________________

Anthony

Dunefield, would you be interested in a debate about this on a MA board I moderate? It's a very much like GFY but MA related.

Hit me up on ICQ and I'll fill you in.

__________________

dunefield

That paragraph does hold weight...

Think about it... A brash roid headed guy who just did 6 months in a MMA training camp is going to come out thinking he's a weapon... Rather than if he was to do 6 months at a Shotokan dojo his mindset would come out totally different...

__________________

Anthony

That's because a guy coming out of a MMA school is more likely to be better trained, and battle tested against fully resisting opponents, while a Shotokan guy is still training for his orange belt.

It is a gladiator mindset dunefield. That's what MMA is.

__________________

dunefield

I don't see whats wrong discussing it in here? I mean i'm talking to you about it... It's not like we're hijacking the whole board...

__________________