Sly

Sure, I understand. I think you care more about it because you're from New York.

I don't need to see concrete evidence every time somebody tells me something. There's way too much going on for me to be running around and investigating every situation just so I know the "full truth". There's a point where you listen to and believe "trusted sources". They gain their status of being "trusted sources" through various ways and they remain "trusted sources" until they give you reason not to trust them.

That is how most people think.

I don't need to be in Lebanon to know that a war is raging. I don't need to be sitting in on a UN meeting to know that people are getting pretty pissed. I don't need to be sitting in on a dinner between the Israeli big shots to know that the war isn't going to be over this week.

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Sly

Continuing with that thought...

I have yet to see one good conspiracy theory from a "trusted source". Every theory is from some guy that nobody has ever heard of and has always created theories and ideas of "what really happened". Now could one of these guys actually be right? Oh absolutely, but its going to need REALLY good evidence because it bends away from "common sense".

I was reading earlier today about a theory of the plane in Pennsylvania getting shot down. Some Corp. told Alex Jones that all of this took place and I found tons of stuff on the Internet about it. Doing research on this Corp., from what I found he's been retired for over 25 years. He went on to claim that he had regular weekly access with the Joint Chiefs of Staff and they gave him this information.

So lets think about this for a second... the Joint Chiefs of Staff and government are smart enough to frame Osama and stage a massive "terrorist act" and yet they allow a 25 year retired Corp. in on weekly meetings and tell him "yeh, we ordered the National Guard to shoot down the plane".

That just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. None. That is totally ridiculous and it amazes me that people don't ask themselves "and how does this guy know this information and why is the government allowing him to go on National radio making these claims yet supposedly they're keeping the other hundreds of involved people quiet?"

I wish I could find more information on this guy. He's probably sitting in a shack in Montana rambling on about aliens coming in through his sink faucet.

Yappo.

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Mr. Soul

Sure, sure, I understand what you're saying. You may be right, I may be more passionate about this particular event because of where I live, and because I know people directly affect. But I really think that this is a special situation. I'm not the kind of guy who thinks that everything on TV is some zionist or Catholic conspiracy or whatever.

Our government has used this event to lead us into 2 wars, plus a proxy war. And we all know, even if only in the back of our minds, that this is probably only the beggining. It's not just any run of the mill world event. It's probably the most serious thing that will happen in our lifetimes. I just think that we shouldn't be expected to blindly accept the government's word about who is involved. We the people, the victims of this crime, should be shown the evidence. Either in a courtroom setting, or some other reasonable form of investigation. This is one of the few crimes in the US that has not been investigated, and that worries me.

Mr. Soul

I totally agree. These sorts of accusations are widespread, and I do not give them much credit. Just because someone is ex military, sorry, that does not mean they're not presently crazy.

I do not pretend to have any answers about 9/11. All I know is what's right there in front of me. This horrible crime was committed that has affected our country more than anything since Pearl Harbor, and it has not been properly investigated. In fact, attempts at investigations have been stifled by the federal government. The majority of the people believe that Bin Laden did it for no other reason than, from what I can see, CNN tells them he did. As they did 5 minutes after the second tower was hit. This is what doesn't sit right, in my eyes.

Pleasurepays

haha.. exactly. good thing conspiracy theorists are apparently shitty at math or they would realize that the ratio of "suspected conspiracy" to "proven conclusively to have been a conspiracy" is hovering right at around.... uhm... i would guess.... about 551,566,134,233:5

huey

Lets just say the old boys club knows how to maximize profit and power in a given situation created or not created by them. At the end of the day 911 was great for Haliburton.
last point no conspiracy theory in that article. It's matter of fact of how the US went to war with Iraq after 911. It's why bush was not falted for deciding to go to war.
Did you watch it?

__________________
opinions are like assholes.................


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Mr. Soul

lmfao, sorry dude, but you obviously don't understand who you're talking to.

Did you watch it.

As if learning something that is contrary to his ideology will make him rethink his views. You give this man way to much credit. Anything he hears that opposes what the government says will immedietly be cast aside as crazy or biased, regardless of the source. If Edward R. Murrow were alive today, 12clicks would be calling him a communist every time he exposed one of the governments lies. He is not capable of independent thought. He doesn't even really understand the word independent, as he admitted in this thread.

Go bang your head off the wall for about 30 minutes, it would be easier than attempting to have a conversation with this 12clicks charector.

baddog

In other words, unless you witnessed it, or the conclusions reached agree with you, it didn't happen.

Nice.

Mr. Blue

Does anyone question how massive this cover-up / conspiracy would have to be and just how many people would have had to be involved to pull it off? That alone dictates the fallacy of the theory itself.

Why does the size and scope of the conspiracy theory make it impossible to pull off? Look how many agencies, how many people, how many players would need to be involved to not only pull the thing off, but then to subsequently cover it up.

It falls into what Sly was saying regarding "common sense" and just the infeasibility of it all. I mean, Bush is too stupid to turn the mic off while he's speaking to Blair about the situation in Lebanon...do you honestly think monkey boy can pull off a conspiracy like this? He can't say the word nuclear. Here's a quote from Bush:

Huh? Umm, okay, if he pulled off the biggest crime in world history and you believe it...I got a bridge to sell you.

http://www.debunking911.com/massivect.htm

Just give that a read and just kind of think about it for a few minutes. Even if you don't believe in the government, believe in the essential flaws of human nature to keep a secret :D It's impossible to keep something of that size and scope a secret...too many people would be involved.

__________________
See Sig...oh wait.

Mr. Soul

Wow, do you have a reading comprehension problem or what? Honestly. How did you take my comment and come to this conclusion???

I clearly said that if a jury of 12 Americans was presented with evidence, and found Bin Laden guilty, I would accept it.

To you, this sounds like, well, whatever you just managed to spit out. "unless you witnessed it, or the conclusions reached agree with you, it didn't happen." Who the fuck said anything like that? You have serious issues. Let me guess, another high school dropout? Fucking amazing, the ignorance on this board sometimes.

Is it possible you are even more stupid than I originally thought?

Mr. Blue

Yep, the man pictured below pulled off the biggest conspiracy ever:





Come on people...just say no to tinfoil.

__________________
See Sig...oh wait.

dRI-X

hahaha, no more nonsense pls....

__________________


ICQ:327383017

huey

lol I think his sig used to say I'm the wall you bang your head against or something like that. This shit is to deep for a porn board : )

__________________
opinions are like assholes.................


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Pleasurepays

.... and this is the point where the conspiracy crowd comes in to inform us that "uhm... well, its not really him you see, its the establishment and those around him"

Mr. Soul

Mr. Blue is telling people not to believe stupid shit they read on the internet...

YET...

He's posting DOCTORED pictures from the internet, as if they are true.

No, son, Bush did not have that book upside down. Bush did not have those lens caps on. It's a miracle called photoshop.

Amazing the stupid shit that stupid people will believe and repeat.

Rolo

Found this slip-up by world trade owner Larry Silverstein:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ry+Silverstein

Now, when he says "pull"... is that an freudian slip or something else?

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pocketkangaroo

Does you guys actually believe that a ton of government officials, media outlets, engineers, and so on are secretly hiding "the truth"? That 9/11 was some play that people acted out for the public? That not a single person involved has leaked the "the truth"? I mean this government leaks just about everything to anyone. Yet they somehow have kept arguably the greatest story ever under wraps despite the fact selling it could make them millions upon millions?

Rolo

Good logic... however how many knew exactly what the Manhattan Project was about, while they were building the first nuclear weapons?

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Mr. Soul

Nope.


678

Mr. Blue

Gee, it was light humor not ment to be taken seriously, but I guess you got that stick shoved so far up your ass that you didn't notice. However, the fact remains that Bush is a dolt. So:

You honestly believe that Bush is a mastermind of the biggest conspiracy ever?

Maybe you believe Cheney is behind it, yeah he's really good at covering up stuff...like that whole getting drunk and shooting his friend.

Maybe you believe Karl Rove is behind it, he did a wonderful job keeping out his name out of the press regarding the leaked CIA operatives name.

I also think the Bush administration did a great job keeping Gitmo out of the press, Abu Ghraib, and a number of other fuck-ups that happened along the way.

I'm glad you think so highly of Bush's mental capacity and the Republicans that they could pull off something so elaborate and how mentally challenged the Democrats must be for letting something that massive slip under their noses.

You're such a fucking tool, lol, use some of that "common sense" you were blathering about earlier and realize that there's no way in hell such a massive cover-up could be perpetrated by monkey boy or the christian choir he's got backing him.

btw, I have a bridge to sell you, it's in New York, slightly used, but I'll give you a special discount.

__________________
See Sig...oh wait.

Manowar

oh noes, politics

Rolo

This was the "state of the union address" the mideast saw:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...94390378871865

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Rolo

Here they claim he is "pre-senile dementia"

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...32664644484246

__________________
Surfmastering : a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery

Rolo

Of course this German TV report might have found the truth:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...88900154749704

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Kimo

lameeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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...

iDope

It was the US government!

It says so here http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...37943386&q=911

tahiti

if it's on Fox and on the Internet IT IS TRUE!

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tahiti

I CAN FLYYYYYYYYYYyyyy

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12clicks

yup, once again, when your nose is thoroughly rubbed in your idiocy, you stoop to playground tricks like changing my quotes.
only the tinfoil hat crowd thinks Bin Laden wasn't responsible.

please, child, tell us, who in the government was responsible and why?
all the commonly held beliefs are wrong in your mind, there is no evidence (in your mind) so lets hear it. how was this all done by the government?

__________________

12clicks

yeah, when you push these wing nuts to explain their demented theory they go quiet.

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12clicks

yup, not investigated by the FBI, not investigated by the CIA, not investigated by the intelligence agencies of germany, UK, etc., not investigated by the 9/11 commission, not no investigations at all. You're right.

__________________

12clicks

the government lies
the media lies
its all lies
I'm the only one who knows the truth

__________________

Tdog

12clicks, here is an interesting article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...080101300.html

9/11 Panel Suspected Deception by Pentagon
Allegations Brought to Inspectors General

By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 2, 2006; A03

Some staff members and commissioners of the Sept. 11 panel concluded that the Pentagon's initial story of how it reacted to the 2001 terrorist attacks may have been part of a deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public rather than a reflection of the fog of events on that day, according to sources involved in the debate.

Suspicion of wrongdoing ran so deep that the 10-member commission, in a secret meeting at the end of its tenure in summer 2004, debated referring the matter to the Justice Department for criminal investigation, according to several commission sources. Staff members and some commissioners thought that e-mails and other evidence provided enough probable cause to believe that military and aviation officials violated the law by making false statements to Congress and to the commission, hoping to hide the bungled response to the hijackings, these sources said.

In the end, the panel agreed to a compromise, turning over the allegations to the inspectors general for the Defense and Transportation departments, who can make criminal referrals if they believe they are warranted, officials said.

"We to this day don't know why NORAD [the North American Aerospace Command] told us what they told us," said Thomas H. Kean, the former New Jersey Republican governor who led the commission. "It was just so far from the truth. . . . It's one of those loose ends that never got tied."

Although the commission's landmark report made it clear that the Defense Department's early versions of events on the day of the attacks were inaccurate, the revelation that it considered criminal referrals reveals how skeptically those reports were viewed by the panel and provides a glimpse of the tension between it and the Bush administration.

A Pentagon spokesman said yesterday that the inspector general's office will soon release a report addressing whether testimony delivered to the commission was "knowingly false." A separate report, delivered secretly to Congress in May 2005, blamed inaccuracies in part on problems with the way the Defense Department kept its records, according to a summary released yesterday.

A spokesman for the Transportation Department's inspector general's office said its investigation is complete and that a final report is being drafted. Laura Brown, a spokeswoman for the Federal Aviation Administration, said she could not comment on the inspector general's inquiry.

In an article scheduled to be on newsstands today, Vanity Fair magazine reports aspects of the commission debate -- though it does not mention the possible criminal referrals -- and publishes lengthy excerpts from military audiotapes recorded on Sept. 11. ABC News aired excerpts last night.

For more than two years after the attacks, officials with NORAD and the FAA provided inaccurate information about the response to the hijackings in testimony and media appearances. Authorities suggested that U.S. air defenses had reacted quickly, that jets had been scrambled in response to the last two hijackings and that fighters were prepared to shoot down United Airlines Flight 93 if it threatened Washington.

In fact, the commission reported a year later, audiotapes from NORAD's Northeast headquarters and other evidence showed clearly that the military never had any of the hijacked airliners in its sights and at one point chased a phantom aircraft -- American Airlines Flight 11 -- long after it had crashed into the World Trade Center.

Maj. Gen. Larry Arnold and Col. Alan Scott told the commission that NORAD had begun tracking United 93 at 9:16 a.m., but the commission determined that the airliner was not hijacked until 12 minutes later. The military was not aware of the flight until after it had crashed in Pennsylvania.

These and other discrepancies did not become clear until the commission, forced to use subpoenas, obtained audiotapes from the FAA and NORAD, officials said. The agencies' reluctance to release the tapes -- along with e-mails, erroneous public statements and other evidence -- led some of the panel's staff members and commissioners to believe that authorities sought to mislead the commission and the public about what happened on Sept. 11.

"I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described," John Farmer, a former New Jersey attorney general who led the staff inquiry into events on Sept. 11, said in a recent interview. "The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years. . . . This is not spin. This is not true."

Arnold, who could not be reached for comment yesterday, told the commission in 2004 that he did not have all the information unearthed by the panel when he testified earlier. Other military officials also denied any intent to mislead the panel.

John F. Lehman, a Republican commission member and former Navy secretary, said in a recent interview that he believed the panel may have been lied to but that he did not believe the evidence was sufficient to support a criminal referral.

"My view of that was that whether it was willful or just the fog of stupid bureaucracy, I don't know," Lehman said. "But in the order of magnitude of things, going after bureaucrats because they misled the commission didn't seem to make sense to me."

CDSmith

By independants (citizens) or by the appointed professionals (cops)

??

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CDSmith

Everyone knows Bush has Wolf Blitzer on the speed dial.

"You can mention this. No, you can't say anything about that. You mention that and a black helicopter'll be landing on your mother's lawn"

If you're watching CNN then you are GUILTY... guilty of allowing yourself to be brainwashed! Everyone who's anyone knows the only HONEST news sources are in EUROPE, and the BBC, and that one in Russia, what's it called? I forgetski.

:D

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Tdog

Good point. The 9/11 commission was a group of independants (citizens)

We need to appoint professionals (cops, investigators) to do a real investigation.

12clicks

Tdog,
its somewhat interesting. it clearly states that "probable cause to believe that military and aviation officials violated the law by making false statements to Congress and to the commission, hoping to hide the bungled response to the hijackings"

the article clearly blows away the tinfoil hat theory that the 9/11 commission was not independant enough or somehow involved in some sort of cover up.
And there's no surprise that people would try to cover their ass when the defense system did not work as quickly as promised.

This article kinda makes my point.

__________________

12clicks

huh?
lee h hamilton:
Lee Hamilton, vice chair, is president and director of the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. Prior to becoming director of the Woodrow Wilson Center in 1999, Hamilton served for 34 years in Congress representing Indiana's Ninth District. During his tenure, he served as chairman and ranking member of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs (now the Committee on International Relations), chaired the Subcommittee on Europe and the Middle East from the early 1970s until 1993, the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, and the Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran. Hamilton also served as chair of the Joint Economic Committee, working to promote long-term economic growth and development. As chairman of the Joint Committee on the Organization of Congress and a member of the House Standards of Official Conduct Committee, he was a primary draftsman of several House ethics reforms. Since leaving the House, Mr. Hamilton has served as a commissioner on the influential United States Commission on National Security in the 21st Century (the Hart-Rudman Commission), and was co-chair with former Senator Howard Baker of the Baker-Hamilton Commission to Investigate Certain Security Issues at Los Alamos. He is currently a member of the President's Homeland Security Advisory Council. Mr. Hamilton is a graduate of DePauw University and Indiana University law school, as well as the recipient of numerous honorary degrees and national awards for public service. Before his election to Congress, he practiced law in Chicago and Columbus, Indiana.

Richard Ben-Veniste:
Richard Ben-Veniste is a partner in the Washington law firm of Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw. He served as assistant U.S. attorney, Southern District New York, from 1968 to 1973, which included service as chief of the Special Prosecution Section from 1971 to 1973. Mr. Ben-Veniste was chief of the Watergate Task Force of the Watergate Special Prosecutor's Office from 1973 to 1975 and Special Outside Counsel Senate Committee on Government Operations from 1976 to 1977. From May 1995 to June 1996, Mr. Ben-Veniste was chief counsel (minority) of the Senate Whitewater Committee. Mr. Ben-Veniste received an A.B. from Muhlenberg College in 1964, an LL.B. from Columbia University Law School in 1967, where he was a Harlan Fiske Stone Scholar, and an LL.M. from Northwestern University School of Law in 1968 under a Ford Foundation fellowship grant. He is a member of the bars of New York and the District of Columbia.

Fred Fielding:
Fred Fielding is senior partner and head of Wiley, Rein, & Fielding's Government Affairs, Business & Finance, Litigation and Crisis Management/White Collar Crime Practices. From 1981-1986, he served as Counsel to the President of the United States, as deputy counsel from 1972-1974 and as Associate Counsel from 1970-1972. He also served as clearance counsel during the Bush-Cheney Presidential Transition. In addition to his public service as White House counsel, Fielding has served as the U.S.-designated arbitrator at the Tribunal on the U.S.-U.K. Air Treaty Dispute (1989-1994), as a member of the president's Commission on Federal Ethics Law Reform (1989) and as a member of the secretary of transportation's Task Force on Aviation Disasters, (1997-1998), as well as numerous other commissions. He is a member of the District of Columbia and Pennsylvania Bars, the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania, the U.S. District Court, Eastern District of Pennsylvania; the District of Columbia Court of Appeals; U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia; U.S. Courts of Appeals for the D.C., Federal, First, Third, Fourth, and Ninth Circuits; the U.S. Court of Military Appeals; and the U.S. Supreme Court. He holds an A.B., with honors, from Gettysburg College and a J.D. from the University of Virginia School of Law, where he served on the Editorial Board of the Virginia Law Review.
---------------------------------------------------
I could go on, but I think you get the point.

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Tdog

Looks like they are all lawyers on that panel.

Yup Lawyer are qualified to conduct investigations into the largest criminal act in the history of the planet.

CDSmith

No, I believe the 9/11 commission members were all qualified to do the job they were appointed, thus they would be considered professionals.

Nice try though.

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CDSmith

Actually, that's exactly what lawyers do.... they not only stand up and talk in front of rooms full of people, there is a lot of investigation done in order to back up what they are saying.

Am I saying I always believe what these kinds of lawyers tell me? No, not at all. What I'm saying is show me some irrefutable evidence that there is some kind of coverup or conspiracy, don't come at me with your "feelings" or your suspicions or innuendo, because when people do that then 12clicks is right on the money with the tin foil hat analogy.

And I know how some of you hate when 12clicks is right

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Tdog

This is my opinion, and its only an opinion why I think there is a cover up
and the commission is not qualified.

The number one reason is the crime areas (WTC, pentagon) were removed very fast.

Do you remember TWA flight 800? They reconstructed the entire plane with the parts in a hanger to find the problem.

Now im not saying they should have reconstructed the WTC but they should have taken all the metal out to a hanger and done a proper investigation on it. All of the remains were shipped off to china for scrap.

Looking how fast they cleaned up WTC7 and the towers tells me there is a cover up. Someone didnt want anyone to do a proper investigation.

The only one that has done any real tests on the metal is Professor Steven E. Jones. Someone at the WTC took samples and sent them to Professor jones and he found thermite all over it. Thermite is used to cut thru steel.
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

12clicks

ok, so planes really didn't slam into the towers, a couple of guys with blow torches cut through the steel.
How long should we have left the pile of rubble with human remains in the center of the city to convince you there was no coverup?

__________________

Tdog

What part in there did I say that planes did not hit the towers?

And did you read, I asked why they didn't move all the metal off to a neutral site to let investigators work on the remains? All investigations rebuild to find out what they can.
Maybe rebuild part of the plane to see what they can find out. Non of that was done.

All the material was shipped off and sold as scrap. No one got a chance to even investigate. Why would the government allow this?

12clicks

because if you watched it live, you would *know* how the towers came down.
There was no controlled demolition. the towers lost their structural integrity from a plane hitting it and then causing a massive fire. unless the charges went off exactly where the plane flew into the building, your theory is pointless. as is an investigation into controlled demolition.
The buildings didn't collapse from the bottom, they pancaked down from the point the plane crashed into them.
The end.

and I support my government's not wasting money appeasing the tinfoil hat crowd by investigating why the sky is blue.

__________________

Tdog

Oh so the government just watched Fox news and said "Yup thats it, thats how it happened"

I also saw Bill Clinton on Fox news say "I didnt have sex with that woman"

That sure didnt stop ken star from spending $60million to investigate that.

BradM

12clicks does it again. Thank you for this thread.

Mr. Blue

Did that stop people from saying that TWA 800 was shot down by a shoulder launched missile? Another conspiracy theory at work. Are you starting to see a pattern that every major attack, every accident, anything that can possibly be made into a conspiracy theory gets made into one.

I'm not sure if its a case of vaulting hubris that makes Americans believe that the U.S. can't be attacked without our government having something to do with it.

Pearl Harbour - had the conspiracy theory that FDR knew it was going to happen and let it happen so we could enter the war, lol.

TWA 800 - Shoulder launched missile

First WTC Bombing - The FBI knew in advance

9/11 - well you get the idea.

Now you say the selling of the scrap metal...okay...so that means Gov. Pataki was involved as well? Are you starting to see that to make this conspiracy plausible you'd basically have to have half the government involved, all the media would have to play along, civilian agencies that confirmed what happened, and no one would leak the information??? Sorry, but that's a jump off in reality that's just not feasible.

Human nature dictates a large group of people needed to pull off a conspiracy like that couldn't keep a secret. Now if Bush could honestly spin something so huge like that, wouldn't he continue spin the media? He's pretty much gotten nothing but negative press the second he stepped into office.

Basically anyone that believes in the 9/11 conspiracy theory believes that Bush is the greatest evil mastermind in history. Now say this aloud a few times, "Bush is a evil genius", around the third time saying it reality should start setting in again....take an aspirin, it'll be alright...you'll recover from your case of Illuminatitis

__________________
See Sig...oh wait.

12clicks

no, they actually talked to the engineers and architects who knew everything about the building.
but please, keep pretending it happened another way.

hmmmm, so what you're saying is that one president couldn't keep getting a blow job in the oval office quiet but another president was able to keep quiet a conspiracy that would involve at least 100s if not thousands of people and change the entire world.

can I have some of that dope?

__________________

12clicks

why do I never know how to take this?

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