The Hun

I thought of something that could help us fight cheaters on link-sites and TGP's. Might be an idea to get something going that a lot of sites cooperate on though. People can pay for a submitter pass. Not a lot, maybe even just a dollar or 5 dollars or something, but it means we have personal information of such a submitter on file. And a creditcard number. Once a submitter is caught cheating his account could be blocked. Of course all information on this person will stay on file to prevent him from submitting again.

I have the resources to set something like this up. And I also have the tendency to go for it, 'cause a lot of people have been trying to cheat their way in to a couple of dollars... Luckily my bot takes care of 'em ;-)

Anothing thing I have been thinking of is to get sponsors to work on this. Cheating on a link-site or TGP should be illegal. If people still do this the funds they made so far could be donated to charity (which could also be the pockets of the needing sponsor-owner). That way cheating would simply not be profitable. I talked to a lot of sponsors. They all agree on one thing: traffic generated by cheaters is not making any sales, only costing money and a lot of trouble from pissed of users who report to the sponsor, or the FTC. All in all giving that sponsor a pretty bad name. I'd love to see some cooperation going on regarding this.

Jakke PNG

There's not much my little efforts could do to help this matter, but I find it an intresting idea. Even a very good idea.

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Milton

i think thats a great idea ! you get my creditcard asap hun

realed

Well, I don't operate the largest TGP www.voyeurzine.com but it is very successful and the main problem we experience is CHEATERS!

I have setup a PASSCODE system which generally means that 90% of the galleries posted at my site and from VERIFIED submitters.... to this day I have not had 1 instance of cheating....

I'm not sure that gallery submitters will subscribe to the idea that they need to show CC details upfront before submitting though.... Let's not forget that without gallery submitters we wouldn't have TGPS!

So, I guess what I am trying to say is that specific PASSCODE/PARTNER/AFFILIATE lists should suffice for TGP submissions - no need for CC subscriptions from the point of the submitters..... I really don't think anybody would buy into this model to be honest...

Terry
www.projectvoyeur.com
www.thetruevoyeur.com
www.voyeurzine.com

Tipsy

The pass idea works for me

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sexyavs

Hun,

This was discussed before with cheaters and major sponsors.. I believe there is a legal issue with blackballing someone and restricting their right to earn income..

I think somone should consult an attorney in the USA before doing that.. otherwise sponsors could list cheaters and share the info with other sponsors.. and I believe some do.. but I think also it is technically illegal here in the USA.

Im sure one of the adult attorneys could answer this. I just seem to remember it being an issue.


Chris

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mike503

if you store credit card info, it might be required now that that data be hosted behind a strong firewall. not sure if visa passed that restriction or not, but it was a rumor before...

just assign everyone a username/password, and have them give you a phone number. you call once and verify, good enough. if they fuck you over, post the # all over, or find out who owns the #.

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GTS Mark

Sounds good to me Hun... Where do I send my credit card information?

DH

pr0view

you would like me to give my CC info to 200 tgp guys over there? pardon my french, but have you gone insane?

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The Hun

Terry, I already have a system like that. All confirmed submissions. But still people cheat. Lately especially Russians (surprise, surprise).

The main reason I don't go ahead and set this up, but post it here first is what you are saying. My site exsists 'cause of gallery submitters. Now I will make it harder for people to submit. Maybe even creating a feeling with people that when they 'sign up' they would have a better chance of getting listed. So I'm trying to find out if there are enough people willing to try something like this. It will be one of the first projects where people's credit card's will INDEED be used for verification only ;-)

Anyway, the good have to suffer for the bad, no matter how you put it. That's why I'm trying to get something going that will work for all sites. Maybe people could upload their submit page to a system or something. That way gallery submitters would pay the least possible for verification. Chances of the honest submitters to get listed would increase as well...

The Hun

The creditcard numbers are used for verification only, not to bill anybody. So the actual number doesn't have to be stored. There are checksums you can calculate which would be unique for every creditcard number but are impossible to generate the original creditcard number from. The checksum would be stored, not the original creditcard number.

This same system is commonly used for passwords. So there's no reverse algorithm. Even when someone would hack into the database he wouldn't get any useful information. So no, you won't have to give your creditcard information to a link-site, only to a billing party that can verify your card. I'm sure there's a billing company what will drop me an e-mail with an offer now ;-)

realed

Hun, no doubt you are in the ultimate position to do this and I do not doubt that you could make this work...

Maybe it will take something this extreme to eradicate cheaters ( althought, no matter what you do there will always be cheaters, jut less of them )

Obviously only the BIGGEST and BEST tgp's will be able to do this and ultimately this model will filter down to the smaller TGP's....

In saying that, it would probably work for a site like www.thehun.com but never for a new site www.xxxtgp2002.com etc.....

You say you already have a PASSCODE system in place.... I would concentrate on doing more to those cheaters than you probably currently do.... PUBLISH NAMES, EMAIL ADDRESS, DOMAINS ETC ETC on a CHEATERS page @ thehun... I remember you did this with advertisers at one point...

As you know... 99.99% of TGP submitters do not cheat... why create a brand new infrastructure to catch or deter maybe 5 cheaters per week?... I think dealing with the cheaters retrospectively rather than pro-actively would work better..... and would ultimately be less labour intensive and more productive in the long run.

Think of all the TGP owners who could download a comprehensive cheater/blacklist from thehun on a daily basis?... we all would do it! - and give you OUR CC numbers ;-)

Terry

ServerGenius

why wouldn't honest webmasters want to pay a dollar or even
5 dollars? Gallery builders are only thinking of making money.
In any normal business you have to invest some money in order
to make some money.

It's a 1 time fee per TGP right? It will weed out a lot of bad guys
which helps increase the good guys change of listing...and it will
save the TGP owners a lot of hassle hunting down cheaters.

I support this idea will defenitely want to use it and wouldn't mind
paying a one time fee to TGP's for verification purposes in order
to be known as a good guy.

DynaMite

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ServerGenius

you should see the cheater logs of a good spiderscript no matter
if it's a big or a small TGP 99.99% fair webmasters is very far from
reality. Again it would be one time fee per webmaster. Even for
the small tgps maybe even especially for the small ones...since
those are the ones that get cheated most.....usually they just
don't know.

DynaMite

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The Hun

It would be a one time fee for people willing to submit through a system like this. Maybe there could be a monthly fee or something for sites joining (wanting to use this to block cheaters), but I think that if submitters pay 1-5 USD that renevue would cover the bandwidth.

It should be a system where as many link-sites as possible could work with. Preferably at no, or a very low fee...

MikeEP

TheHun,

I believe the idea is exceptional. Not only with their information be stored, but being paysite owner and soon to be affliliate, i have tons of content that i'm sure people will steal and use on galleries. Or even promote other sponsor with my content.

One of the best advantages to this, is if a sponsor has proof that a gallery submitter is using their stolen content, there personal information is already on file.

This would make the cheater think twice about using unlicensed content and cheat. Obviously the other advantages you already mentioned.

I'm all for this. I also run a TGP and can see how this would benefit both TGP's and paysite owners...hell, this obviously would benefit content providers more then anyone.

I hope to see this system working one day.

The Hun

Mike, good point indeed. Didn't even think of that. I will have my attorney check into the legal issues regarding that though.

Mikey

This idea has been brought up a few months ago by Due. It could probably work under certain conditions, like if there was a submit pool that the submitter was submitting to and all the tgps involved got their galleries from that pool. As a submitter, there is no way I would give my credit card out to 200+ tgps, 50+ link lists separately even if I wasn't be charged.

Also, you have to define what is cheating, we all know the basic forms, redirecting, cp and stolen content. But there has to be a set group of rules in writing. Otherwise you start running into problems with people breaking a rule of a tgp and being labeled a cheater. There is a difference between cheating and breaking a tgp's rules. Both will get you blacklisted though. But what is acceptable at one tgp may not be accepted at another tgp. I've been blacklisted at one tgp because my url was too long! Sure it was against that tgp's rules, but does it warrant being put on a blacklist and labeled a cheater? It is a violation of that tgp's rules but accepted at 99% of the other tgps.

Now if you wanted to setup something like thehuntgpsubmits.com and set up your pass system and all the tgps that wanted to use the galleries submitted also had to subscribe to it and adhere to the same rules, then maybe it might work. That way with your name, The Hun, backing it there is some legitimacy to it.

If I had to pay to prove that I was a legitimate submitter, I would at some point like to get listed at some of those tgps I was paying!

Tipsy

Do people actually bother to read threads? There was never any suggestion that a CC number would be given to any TGP. All that was ever suggested was that a billing company process a nominal fee to ensure that name/address details given are correct. Then you go on about paying to prove your a submitter - good grief. A fee of $1 or $5 really is just a nominal amount for verification. Your hardly paying any TGP as such for a listing. Try reading the other posts and understanding them!

As for the blacklisting thing - this would be my main area of concern as with Mikey. Many people will dish out a blacklist at the drop of a hat. If people are blacklisted it should be for cheating and not something silly like a typo or server going down for 20 mins. Unfortunately some people do currently blacklist for this.

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The Hun

The blacklisting thing would indeed be a problem. If it's for one site it would be easy. Even to open up the system for other sites but keep the administration up for one site would be a problem. Not everybody submits to all sites out there.

Easiest would be to make a set of options for a link-site joining in this system. They can have the option to blacklist people. And with certain reasons. They could tag an option to blacklist all people that are blacklisted elsewhere or they could decide to build their own list. So 'cheaters' could then be blocked from certain sites. I'm sure there's a system that could be made up for this...

GTS Mark

Some excellent points raised in this discussion.... I am all in favor of weeding out the cheaters... They take the listings I might have possibly landed. Which in turn takes money out of my pocket.

A monthly credit card payment I think would be in order however I think there would have to be a governing body to regulate the system so good webmasters would not get banned for silly reasons. Maybe it should work on a point scale... The more mistakes you make the more points you lose and after a while you will be assessed with no points and be banned from the system. The more points you have, the more valuable you look to large TGP's that are looking for quality submitters.

All we need now is for someone to go ahead and create this system and get the ball rolling. To tell you the truth an operation like this could really be a profitable venture and well worth the start up captital invested.

Ie. You have 1,000 gallery submitters each paying $25 a month for access to the system.

Anyways I don't know if any of this stuff makes sense? It is 7:00am and I have to hit the sack. I will be very interested in reading this thread when I wake up to see more input.

DH

hahmike

I hate to bring you guys down to reality, but the system will fail if nothing is billed to those cards. Russian kids will just start using credit card generators. Its a no-brainer.

Or how about if my server fucks up and the files need uploading once again? Thats going to take a few days to upload everything on my connection.

Ever thought about false accusations? For example, I accidentally delete something from the server. And yes, it happens. I didn't even realise it. I have a submitter pass for VoyeurZine and last week Terry mailed me because one of the galleries was redirecting to a sponsor. Turned out I'd accidentally deleted the file. Everything was fixed within 1 hour of sending the mail. But many people wouldn't even send the mail in the first place.

How about movie gallery makers that use cookies on their galleries, to prevent cheaters from hotlinking them? If a tgp owner doesn't have cookies enabled and clicks on the movie, they'll be sent to an error page. So the movie gallery maker gets shitlisted because he is trying to prevent cheaters from eating his bandwidth.

Although the Internet is pretty wild, many TGP owners seem to think that the Internet is the wild west. Take the owner of Babes4Free for example. That guy would blacklist you for filling out his submission form. How would you prevent assholes like that from ruining it for honest webmasters?

hahmike

I assume that another aim of this system would be to make it fair for everyone. How would you deal with webmasters that don't have VISA or MASTERCARD, or whose cards would be rejected by the processor?

I have Switch card and processors like iBill and Jettis don't even recognise it.

Eliminating honest webmasters because their card is rejected, the processor doesn't recognise the card, and "such and such" means that it isn't a fair system.

Tipsy

Mike I'm with you on the blacklist point but again it's somebody else who didn't read the original suggestion. There never was a suggestion that nothing would be charged. A small, nominal fee would be processed by a 3rd party billing company to ensure that personal details matched the card. You could still cheat but only with stolen cards not generators.

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hahmike

I did read it Tipsy, I promise.

hahmike

Also, taking the card numbers to generate a check digit may be a problem. Say you set the system up, using Jettis. No way would they ever hand the card number over, therefore generating a check digit would be impossible.

zip

Shit... there goes my bread....

Tipsy

That was more to the point ;)
However - that'd probably not be needed. If the card is verified with those details and a username/pass issued would the checksum thing actually be any use?

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tradermcduck

The Hun,

great idea but I have to agree with Mikey and Tipsy concerning the blacklisting rules. I would suggest only to blacklist gallery submitters for let's say CP, redirecting, using stolen content and obvious things like that. If all the TGPs want to have ALL their rules implemented in the system you would have to hire someone for administration...

However thanks for my listing in the top 20 today - this really convinced me to buy gallery spots :-)

Mikey

If tgp owners could agree on more things besides that cheaters have to go, then maybe this could work.

I think you should also charge tgp owners for using this system as well. Tgps also benefit from this system.

It could possibly work if there was a centralized submission area. Tgps could pull the galleries they want from it and the ones that don't follow their rules they won't get, that way tgp submitters won't get screwed for some stupid rule on that particular tgp (example of a stupid rule - I was declined and told I risked blacklisting if I continued to submit galleries with the word "next" in it. It was not a "next" page link, it was text describing the girl in the gallery as a girl "next" door.)

The Hun

The checksum thing is only used to block cards. If the billing company that is going to do the billing for this has ways of blocking cards then that is what can be used. People shouldn't be able to sign up more than once with one creditcard.

I'm sure I can come up with a system to check people. A site could store events of cheating, with a reason. Other link-sites should be able to either review those and blacklist the submitters as well or automatically blacklist submitters that are blacklisted by others. Also depending on the reason they're blacklisted. I might blacklist someone for adding a picturebanner, but someone else might not care about that. He could then automatically blacklist people I add to the list for adding consoles, but not the once I blacklist for adding picturebanners for instance...

Shrek

Yep.... what he said!



Your BIG.... but not so big that you could pull off some crazy ass shit like that.

FATPad

You're nuts.

Most of the regular posters to The Hun and other big TGP's would gladly pay a nominal fee if it helped reduce the amount of cheaters.

No matter how many posters refuse to participate, there would definitely be enough people who WOULD pay the fee to make this easily workable.

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rogerbo

All that sounds good but what happens now to the wm who does submit a gallery ? Because he did pay does he get the right to get listed on the Hun ?
Hun you do list maybe 100 Gallery's a day what's with the rest ?
If you going to sart something like this then it has to be a neutral Name to keep the hoppe down to be listed on the Hun. However one advantage would be that even smaler TGP's could get HQ-Gallery's

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Mikey

What if I came out and said The Hun was cheating? Would you believe me? You would think I was on crack. Now if the Hun came out and said I was cheating, chances are you'd believe him.

So what is to stop someone from getting into this system and saying that someone else was cheating? What I mean is, there are webmasters that loathe each other and would take delight in screwing the other guy even without proof.

What is to prevent Joe Schmoe from saying so-and-so should be blacklisted? There are shitloads of tgps out there and new ones are made everyday. I have been submitting daily for 3 years, I make good galleries, the last thing I want is some new guy getting into the tgp business and ruining my rep because maybe he doesn't know what is accepted or not. He could say "this is a good idea, I want to participate" then see my gallery which has 15 thumbs and three banners and say Mikey should be blacklisted for constantly submitting galleries which don't conform to my rules. Which happen to be 16 pic minimum and 2 banners.

Nysus

I had thought of this idea myself a while back, though I don't have a large TGP, or any TGP , so I never brought it up. It would definitely cut back on cheaters, and galleries posted - would be a bitch to setup though. And regarding the sponsors, I think they might abuse it - who says someone won't ban you because they don't like you? Or you go against one of their opinions on a message board?

Mikey, good post too, same thoughts I have.

Cheers,
Matt

hahmike

spacedog jr.

the real magoo

Why don´t you just blacklist the submitters sponsor links?
Like : http://www.sponsor.com?ref=xxx

Nysus

The Hun - What about people getting multiple credit cards, under different names and such? I'm sure a lot of online cheaters wouldn't do this stuff in a local area, but I'm sure a lot would still be inclined to.

Cheers,
Matt

Mikey

How does it benefit the submitter? It seems to me it benefits the tgp owner more. So instead of The Hun getting 2500 galleries a day, he gets maybe 1500. I guess my odds of getting listed increase a little bit.

XM

Why not just improving your bot Hun??

Together with
1. Forbidding changing galleries while listed (like RichardsRealm has)
2. Stopping posting freehosts (like other Big TGPs)
3. Banning domain freehosting nameservers (easy)
4. Checking PROPERLY sponsor codes (Brownie script does it for example)


you'd get rid off 95% cheaters. Number of good sponsors is not infinite, so these guys couldn't sign-up forever...

You are giving currently too many oportunities to cheaters compared to how big your site is...This results in people doing this biz seriously being fucked more then they deserve.

XM

MikeEP

I seem to get the impression that people are thinking this will be one large gallery pool which it's not...(i think)

The whole point from i gather from TheHun, and i may be wrong, is to make this as efficient and simple as possible. With everyone maintain there own control over decisions of blacklists, etc.

Basically, i would set it up like this.

The webmaster would sign up for a submission "code," and pay the fee. The webmaster then has his code, and submits to TGP's as usual. Only difference is, there is a new field in submission forms that ask for this code.

All the code really does is "ACT" like any normal credit card would. Once the webmaster submits, the code is check at a database. If the code has to may blackmarks on it, the submission STILL goes through to the TGP, but the TGP webmaster will be sent an email regarding the blackmarks and the reasons on them.

TGPs will still maintain control on their own blacklists. I for one will have no one control my blacklist. It doesn't make sense to me. My criteria for blacklisting may be different then others on certain subjects.

The way a code gets blackmarks is you can a system like Ebay where you can add commets to the persons code. Only people with proven TGPs, affiliates programs, content providers, and the person OF that code, will have access to that feature to post good or bad things. Obviously the person who owns that particular code will have access to write his own feedback on the issues for or against him. But he will not have access to anyone else's. This give the TGP owner the choice to make his own decision to blacklist that person from his TGP.

This way, TGP webmasters maintain control over there submissions, their blacklist, and everthing. The submitter can write there own response to good things about them, or bad things about them.

The point is is freedom from the system. The system should be a TOOL...nothing more. No gallery pools, no blacklist, nothing. The choices are left up to the TGP's webmasters to make there OWN final decision about a certain submitter, etc.

Either way, just something to think about. The appropriate structure would be the biggest issue to make this work.

Mikey

Well why don't we just use The Hun's galleries on our tgps? THat way we know they have already passed quality control. Just kidding.

But seriously, this is a herculean task. I am all for cleaning out the cheaters, but it would be nice to have some cooperation from the sponsors as well.

meRx

This is where id get screwed.
I am 100% honest at submitting. Have been submitting for 2 years already.
But in my past my credit has been totally trashed.
I dont have a CC due to my bad credit. Thats why i use paypal straight with my bank account. I dont really like the idea but i can totally understand the reasons backing it also. Just make sure you have like a way to Paypal too

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The Hun

XM:

1. Forbidding changing galleries while listed (like RichardsRealm has)
This would include deleting all free hosts when they make a header change. Or deleting galleries if a fix is made, or a sponsor code is fixed... Too many galleries would be deleted for no reason.

2. Stopping posting freehosts (like other Big TGPs)
Don't want to do that. Many people, especially when they first start out, work on a free host. I want to give those people a shot at starting out as well. So I will keep listing free hosts. Part from that, the number of cheaters on a free host are about equal to to the number of cheaters on their own hosting. People cheating on their own servers usually are even harder to detect 'cause they can play tricks in the operating system which is not possible on a free host. Free hosts are easier to check with a robot

3. Banning domain freehosting nameservers (easy)
See 2. I do have the option to blacklist someone's server and all domains he has on it...

4. Checking PROPERLY sponsor codes (Brownie script does it for example)
Already do that.

There's no improvements in the bot that I could make not which would get rid of cheaters 100%. The bot indeed takes care of 95%, I think it's even more than that. But it's the few rotten apples I want to hunt down as well.

It's a pity we have to talk about a subject like this in the first place. But this problem won't go away by itself, so I'm just trying to think of ways to get rid of it.

Multiple cards could be a problem. But people don't have 250 cards. 250 names are easily made up though.

Another solution could be an international dialer or something. Not one that charges an arm and a leg of course, but one that stores the phonenumber people submit from. If they cheat and get blacklisted they have to submit from another phonenumber. And that could be a problem for people. It's easier to get access to more than one creditcard then to more than one phonenumber every time you submit...

Mikey

Thats a good idea, but passcodes can be compromised rather easy that way. Maybe if the submission forms were behind within a members area where you just had to enter the passcode once.

MikeEP

To be honest, i don't want the TheHuns galleries, or anyone elses.

I want my galleries, from people that i know and trust. Im sure TheHun would probably have the cleanest no-cheating galleries on the planet. And thats great for him.

But it does me no good when i don't know the webmasters personally or their submission history.

Also, these webmaster that im used to get better placements, etc. Would be shame to shut them out for a whole new list of galleries i know nothing about. I think any TGP webmaster would vouch for this. New TGP's wouldn't care.

The Hun

Any way of verification could work. Like said before, you could apply for a submitter pass leaving a phonenumber or address where a confirmation is sent to. But that would be a very costy project. The good thing about a system like described here is that it could pretty much pay for itself. If people register and pay a small fee that could cover the bandwidth. It will never cover the programming time involved, but that's made up for by having a tool to stop cheaters... I'd be willing to invest the time needed to set this up... there are still a lot of problems to solve before a good system is up and running though... It's good people are posting their opinions here regarding this

meRx

Great. I like the phone number idea too.
But if you do have a small fee , and have paypal compatibility (prays)
I'll pay the fee without hesitation

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Mikey

Basically what it comes down to is verification, you are who you say you are and not 10 different people.

BUt you gotta be realistic, cheater cheat. No matter what you do to prevent them, I think is only a temporary solution. Until they find a way around it.

For example, look at the domains of cheaters, how many of them have bogus information in the whois? All of them.