Solution to fight Cheaters on link-sites - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

XM · 06-06-2002, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Hun
XM:

1. Forbidding changing galleries while listed (like RichardsRealm has)
This would include deleting all free hosts when they make a header change. Or deleting galleries if a fix is made, or a sponsor code is fixed... Too many galleries would be deleted for no reason.

2. Stopping posting freehosts (like other Big TGPs)
Don't want to do that. Many people, especially when they first start out, work on a free host. I want to give those people a shot at starting out as well. So I will keep listing free hosts. Part from that, the number of cheaters on a free host are about equal to to the number of cheaters on their own hosting. People cheating on their own servers usually are even harder to detect 'cause they can play tricks in the operating system which is not possible on a free host. Free hosts are easier to check with a robot

As for freehosts:
If we could agree on that majority of cheaters are beginners who have insufficient marketing skills to sell product so they have to cheat to make little money to survive, then your concept allowing newbies & free hosts is wrong.
This is the same like if google allowed newbies to get listed with badly optimized pages just because they can't do it properly because they haven't learn it yet. Let the newbies try smaller TGPs and when they grow up and learn, they won't need to cheat on their payhosts.

As for payhosts etc. I agree it is probably harder to catch people playing with server stuff etc. , but make sure your bot behaves EXACTLY like browser and you can get rid of the rest of cheaters.

Gonna for lunch now ;)
XM

Tipsy · 06-06-2002, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shrek

Yep.... what he said!

Your BIG.... but not so big that you could pull off some crazy ass shit like that.

Another idiot who doesn't bother to read the posts before commenting. Nobody ever suggested giving CC details to ANY tgp.

sexyavs · 06-06-2002, 05:48 AM

Hun,

Why dont you just charge your own submitters $5.00 a month to submit to you? Take paypal, ccbill etc.. would be a lil work in the beginning but would be easy to put in.

Why pool it? Take free submissions as well..

Just have 3 levels
Your paid top 10 already in place
Premium submissions (5.00 a month for submitters)
Free Submissions

Then when you get enough of your premium submissions, just dont list free ones anymore.

Pooling would be a headache, this way you keep it all in house.

Chris

The Hun · 06-06-2002, 08:10 AM

Chris, my goal in this is not to make money, it's to get rid of cheaters, which will ultimately make me money anyway. People come to my site 'cause it's clean. I'd like to keep it that way

sexyavs · 06-06-2002, 08:18 AM

Hun,

I didnt mean for you to make money off it.. I just mean $5.00 a month to take submissions from a webmaster isnt exactly making money

but it would be getting identity and getting "real" submitters. I think just getting the credit card authorization would be enough to seperate them from the real cheaters.

Take the $5.00 from each webmaster and give away prizes, Im sure that would go over ok.

I think you would get minimal complaints and may even get better submissions.. my point is that trying to pool it I think you would have more headache than your project would accomplish.

Chris

qdtobbe · 06-06-2002, 08:20 AM

The hun. you must have enought money to buy some guys. checking daily for cheaters

hyper · 06-06-2002, 08:24 AM

hun, you could simply password protect your submit page with paypal subscriptions service, set the price at $5 a month or whatever.
paypals ipn will issue a login and password instantly.
i can give you the contact for the guy who handles the large corporate accounts and probably get you a reduced service fee.

the problem is cheaters will pay also

LoveAsianChicks · 06-06-2002, 08:36 AM

Great idea to stop cheaters Mr.Hun, but I think setting up a tiny fee to submit galleries is a better solution to stopping cheaters.

If you catch a cheater you will have his info & can ban the fool from paying again.
Make it dirt cheap ($2 a month) and you at least get people submitting REAL info to pay the $2.
This idea will solve your problem & is very pratical to setup.

darksoft · 06-06-2002, 09:07 AM

rogerbo had a VERY valid point on the part of the gallery submitter. Once the submitter pays for the "privilege" of submitting, there is no more guarantee of a listing than there is right now. So with this new system in place, not only are we not guaranteed a listing somewhere, we have to PAY to not be guaranteed a listing somewhere.

Not much different than now, except we'd be paying to submit. No offense, Hun, but you don't exactly cater to the submitter anyway with your stringent rules of which sponsors can and cannot be used. Providing a list of approved sponsors on your site for gallery makers to use has been mentioned to you before many times and yet it's still not there.

TGPs aren't the only ones getting cheated. The honest submitter has to bear the brunt of all the assholes that DO cheat already. And with rules out there such as you can't use this sponsor or you can only have 2 links, etc. At which point does it make it not worth it to do galleries anymore by other than a handful of people?

I've seen some tgp's that only want ONE link to a sponsor on a gallery. wtf? At some point you(collectively) have to either lighten up on the gallery maker and let him make a few bucks or make the galleries yourself. Just my 2 cents...

MikeEP · 06-06-2002, 09:17 AM

No offense to anyone, but i believe TheHun is thinking above and way beyond the scope that has been mentioned in the few threads above.

The whole point is rid cheating and especially theft as a whole. It's not a simple task and like everything else, it's not full proof. The point is to have a system everyone can use and conform to, without changing anything to there daily routine or sites.

The honest submitter would get listed faster, the content providers with have access to people using their unlicensed content, the affiliates will have access to submitters using there content for other programs, the list goes on and on.

The solution is not paying for the submission. To be honest, i think that's silly.

Everyone complains about over saturation of most affiliate programs, content, TGP's, etc. This solution is vaulable to our industry in so many incredible ways. Stop the cheaters, stop the people stealing content, stop it all.

Imagine an adult internet with no one stealing content to make galleries with and without cheaters. Obviously, content providers and affiliate program leader have to scan galleries to report content theft, etc, but would you do it if there was a system? Fuck, I sure would.

I would guess at least 30% of the galleries makers would drop out, thus making affiliate programs less saturated, content will be worth more, honest submitters who purchase content will get listed faster, etc, etc.

I'm not saying by any means that this is a total solution. There are tons of holes in the idea, but i believe it's very good beginning idea to get something started. As anything, things take time to catch on and cycle through.

As I mentioned before, as a TGP owner, paysite owner, soon to be affiliate, and also a soon to be content provider, I would give anything to be able to surf galleries to see who's using my content for someone else's programs. Also to see who's using my content without a license.

It's a huge project, but think of the industry 3 years from now. Get something started like this now, would probably take that long and maybe longer to really start showing a positive improvement.

Backov · 06-06-2002, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Hun
Anothing thing I have been thinking of is to get sponsors to work on this. Cheating on a link-site or TGP should be illegal.

How about impromptu DOS attacks? Should they be illegal to? Or only when it's someone else doing them?

Cheers,
Backov

DrewKole · 06-06-2002, 09:25 AM

Hmm, I think it's a very good idea to verify the actual submitter in some facet.

What do I really think should be done? Instead of using credit card verification, create a "Terms and Conditions" that must be FAXED in, with the Name, Address, and Phone # of the person who wishes to have a login/pass. The # would be verified.

The Terms page would state that the content used is licensed to them, and that if needed it will be provided, in addition to agreeing not to redirect, use various, scripts... etc. That provides a LEGAL basis, a WRITTEN contract, not to cheat, this is MUCH more important than just using someone's credit card...

Who would pay for all of this? The TGP's... Wouldn't most of the big guys pay $30/mo for a service like this? Its fraud prevention, and will increase the productivity of their site.

1 person could run an operation like this... =) Hell, give me 2 weeks and I could have a legal contract and everything set up for this. =)

Any comments?

MikeEP · 06-06-2002, 09:31 AM

I'm extremely surprised the content providers aren't on this idea like flys on shit.

darksoft · 06-06-2002, 09:34 AM

How about not listing assholes who put 30-50+ pics on a fucking page and not a single ad? Galleries like that DO get listed on TGPs and yet this isn't considered cheating? It's cheating the gallery maker out of sales! Shit like this gets priority over someone who is creating galleries in hopes of making a sale.

MikeyBoy · 06-06-2002, 09:48 AM

Great ideas listed and while we are at it, it would be great if we would make new rules for the galleries like max of 5-8 pictures per gallery and so and so on

simply to limit the free pictures and movies and to ge better signup ratios

Techie Media · 06-06-2002, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by XM

As for freehosts:
If we could agree on that majority of cheaters are beginners who have insufficient marketing skills to sell product so they have to cheat to make little money to survive, then your concept allowing newbies & free hosts is wrong.
This is the same like if google allowed newbies to get listed with badly optimized pages just because they can't do it properly because they haven't learn it yet. Let the newbies try smaller TGPs and when they grow up and learn, they won't need to cheat on their payhosts.

As for payhosts etc. I agree it is probably harder to catch people playing with server stuff etc. , but make sure your bot behaves EXACTLY like browser and you can get rid of the rest of cheaters.

Gonna for lunch now ;)
XM

You are dead wrong.... The majority of cheaters are not the beginners (they don't know enough to cheat yet) its the seasoned webmaster that has figured out how to cheat. Also many of the older more established and even the new Honest Free Hosts work very hard everyday to combat cheating. I employ a staff of people that look for cheates everyday. Cheaters will cheat on free hosts just as much as they will on paid hosting.

The issue is not whether the cheater is on Free or Paid hosting, it's more a function of developing a method of stopping them, or atleast slowing them down, on any hosting. Hun is just trying to help with a solution to this major problem. It is a step in the right direction for anyone who is concerned with the longevity of the business, and not just a quick buck.

jimmyf · 06-06-2002, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tipsy

As for the blacklisting thing - this would be my main area of concern as with Mikey. Many people will dish out a blacklist at the drop of a hat. If people are blacklisted it should be for cheating and not something silly like a typo or server going down for 20 mins. Unfortunately some people do currently blacklist for this.

Correct!! You have some TGP owners that really think they a some kind of God.. And are true ASS HOLE's....

No way NO how would I give out my credit card to any TGP.. NO FUCKING WAY.

As to thehun I trust this guy all the way... but he's one of the very FEW TGP owners I do trust.

I hate to say it but alot of these TGP owners are crooks.
They don't even follow there own rules and am going to give'em my credit card number..

I know they own the dam thing and if you don't like there rules don't submit.... That's NOT the point. What kind of an example are they setting, to the people that are submitting... with there blind links just one of there OWN rules they break..

As to Russian Cheater's..... Look at the country it's all fucked up with Crooks... just ban the whole dam place... I know a FEW very FEW honest people will be hurt... But that's life....

lawpal · 06-06-2002, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sexyavs

This was discussed before with cheaters and major sponsors.. I believe there is a legal issue with blackballing someone and restricting their right to earn income.

Chris

I would have to research that some more, but I think that is bullshit argument regarding the "right to earn income." There is no right to submit to TGP galleries. They are not always freely available, and for good reason (i.e. preventing illegal content or pop-ups, consoles, etc....)

Making TGP submitters purchase a submitting license is a business issue, not a legal issue. Its like "pay to play" when a band wants to play at a certain club and they pay to have access to perform at the club. I see very little difference.

I also think it is a good idea to stop cheaters.

The money is also not a big issue. If it is 1-5 USD monthly (12-60 USD annually) the fee will pay off if you have one or two signups. Thats no big deal.

Snake Doctor · 06-06-2002, 10:12 AM

I am surprised as well that the content providers aren't chiming in here or even offering to pick up the tab for the expense involved in setting something like this up.
If we could get rid of the stolen content floating around out there, I'd guess that submits to TGP's would drop by at least half. (probably more like 70-80% though)

I agree with the principle behind the idea, but there are definitely alot of details that need to be ironed out so that its a fair system to everybody.

Shrek · 06-06-2002, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tipsy

Another idiot who doesn't bother to read the posts before commenting. Nobody ever suggested giving CC details to ANY tgp.

I got the gest of it asswipe. He wants a CC, (or some type of clamp) on those he feeds from .... and fuck you! Don't start calling me names if you don't want. the same.

Seems to me that the larger tgp's want nothing but golden fucking highways, ... as if you were annoyed to work for your money.

When you bottom feed from others bandwidth... you better expect a few bones!

Maybe you might want to improve your bots....

AND NOT..... attemt to just "kick back" and figure out a way to put your Sucker fish on auto pilot.

Shrek

SunTzu · 06-06-2002, 10:17 AM

Interesting idea, but...

It's not hard to get multiple credit cards, someone could simply call their bank and ask for a new one. Or go to multiple banks and get the visa check cards instantly. And in Russia? I'm sure it's not too hard to get multiple bank acc'ts under different names considering a large percentage of them are run by organized crime.

As for phone numbers, they're changeable (here anyway) for a few bucks within the day. We used to use weekly phone numbers for phone sex services way back when PINs weren't used.

Just playing devils advocate

^R3K^ · 06-06-2002, 10:17 AM

Am I the only one who thinks it should be more than 2-5$.. I say 15-20$ Who doesnt have 20$ to spend make some money?

BTW: Hun you have my phone number, you should accept me more often ;-))

letshunt · 06-06-2002, 10:29 AM

The idea sounds like a great one, I have some wonderful success posting with the hun and have enjoyed the fruits of my sites being posted there.

Other TGP owners, however, may not, I should say do not, adhere to the idealistic view that the hun has upheld. Giving out any information to these guys comes with a certain level of risk. Even incorporating the checksum idea...a good hacker could defeat that with the right script. I have worked in internet security for quite some time...so...where does that leave you?

Unless you are willing to invest in Cisco IOS and HIP technology...you leave yourself a bit wide open. Packets with checksums are detectable and it wouldn't take Albert Einstein to devise a script to defeat it. Kinda like the sniffers we use to monitor network usage.

I agree on one point tho, less cheaters would provide opportunities for more honest webmasters...incorporating the technology to weed them out is certainly a major undertaking, maybe beyond the means of a smaller webmaster.

With the throughput the Hun has, no PIX firewall is going to cover it...you are talking about enterprise level firewalls...software firewalls are sitting ducks for serious hackers...easy to defeat.

Just some thoughts from a guy who does WAN design all day long.

LoveAsianChicks · 06-06-2002, 10:31 AM

Password protect your submission page and charge $1 per month to submit.
Hell you could setup a draw at the end up each month for $500 and give $100 to 5 Gallery submitters.

That would cost a gallery submitter $12 per year to submit. If they can't afford that, they should starting handing out their resume to McDonalds and sell fries for a living.

If someone does cheat you could ban their CC/name and they can't rejoin.
A system like this could be setup in a week or less and the number of cheaters would be reduced 100 fold.

Brown Bear · 06-06-2002, 10:34 AM

Requiring people to have a credit card to be a TGP submitter would screw a lot of honest webmasters that currently submit galleries, but don't have a credit card. Not everybody has a credit card, and not every country in the world has credit cards. So you would be shutting out people that honestly submit galleries, but they just can't get a card.

Houdini · 06-06-2002, 10:34 AM

There's a company that is already doing this called equifax. eBay uses them right now to verfiy the identity of their buyers and sellers. The cost on the eBay site is $5.00 to be verified. It's definitely helped get rid of some cheaters over there. It may be something worth checking out.

Rocco · 06-06-2002, 10:38 AM

I like the idea Thehun If we could have a systeme like that... We could kill a lot of cheaters and we could sleep better :-0

If your project work I want to have it for my tgp :-)

Rocco

Mikey · 06-06-2002, 10:46 AM

So what now, you mean I have to have a fucking credit check done to submit a freaking gallery? Give me a fucking break!

If you want another credit card issued in another name, all you do is call the cc company and tell them to issue it, the main cardholder is liable for the bill, but the card is still issued in someone else name.

Again, how does this benefit me, the submitter?

Rocco · 06-06-2002, 10:52 AM

Mikey I have myself some TGP and I banned around 15-20 webmaster per day with TGP Brownie but the cheater come back with another domain... I'm really tired to see it and it should be more profitable for the honest webmaster because they will have a lot of less submission daily...I'm 100% with you thehun for this great idea...

Rocco

Mikey · 06-06-2002, 10:53 AM

Everyone has referred to the term, "cheating" and "cheater" but has yet to actually define it. Some tgp owners consider breaking their rules as cheating, well the problem is they don't have set rules that are adhered to, plus they can change their rules anytime they want.

There should at the very least be a set of rules adhered to ALL tgps that want to participate in this. What is considered a rule at one tgp isn't necessarily a rule at another tgp.

How is this idea different than "partner status" at some tgps where we don't have to pay to submit?

TheFLY · 06-06-2002, 10:56 AM

checksum seems like a good idea to ensure privacy -- but this idea sounds very complicated... especially where blacklisting is concerned -- and how to identify the cheaters...

cheater says, " if I get caught cheating I'll just whip out a new CC and identity... "

pr0view · 06-06-2002, 10:56 AM

before you start even discussing the specifics and details of such an idea, all of you - big tgp owners - should sit down and definte what a cheater is, what will lead to banning, will there be a "warning" system to someone who fucks-up, what methods can the submitter use to defend against a ban.

you should syncronize your submit rules or else i might get banned at thumbzilla for something that is OK with JJJ.

Mikey · 06-06-2002, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rocco
Mikey I have myself some TGP and I banned around 15-20 webmaster per day with TGP Brownie but the cheater come back with another domain... I'm really tired to see it and it should be more profitable for the honest webmaster because they will have a lot of less submission daily...I'm 100% with you thehun for this great idea...

Rocco

You banned them, ok, I can accept that, but why were they banned? I am not trying to sound like a cock, but maybe your rules for submission are different than my tgp. Some danish tgps will ban you for using Amateur Pages as a sponsor. so say there are 200 tgps in this with maybe about 50 having slightly different rules, # of pics, # of ads, etc. and I get banned by one of them when my gallery would be accepted at the other 195 tgps, is that fair?

If tgps had a general set of rules and defined what cheating was, then I could accept it if I get banned, but when you got 200 tgps with each following his own rules, I can't accept it. What is accepted at one tgp may not be acceptable at another.

Plus who has the final decision on when a person should be blacklisted? The individual tgp? Shit, then Paul Markham would create a tgp and blacklist all the people from gfy that give him shit.

LoveAsianChicks · 06-06-2002, 11:00 AM

I'm sure you can block their billing address as well.

Rocco · 06-06-2002, 11:01 AM

We talk here about redirect traffic not about 12 pics or 15 pics minimum or which host or others things....

Rocco

Tipsy · 06-06-2002, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shrek

I got the gest of it asswipe. He wants a CC, (or some type of clamp) on those he feeds from .... and fuck you! Don't start calling me names if you don't want. the same.

Seems to me that the larger tgp's want nothing but golden fucking highways, ... as if you were annoyed to work for your money.

When you bottom feed from others bandwidth... you better expect a few bones!

Maybe you might want to improve your bots....

AND NOT..... attemt to just "kick back" and figure out a way to put your Sucker fish on auto pilot.

Shrek

When somebody's being an idiot I'll call then one. If you don't wanna be called one don't be stupid and read before posting. Your post stated that you agreed there was no way you were gonna give your CC details to 200 TGP's. From almost the start it was made clear that this was never going to happen and the Hun even asked if there was a 3rd party processor who wanted to handle that side of things.

To me that makes you an idiot as you were obviously too dumb to 'get the gest of it'.

Houdini · 06-06-2002, 11:08 AM

I think there's a lot of confusion that cheaters can just use a new credit card after they've been banned. The credit card is not the identity, it's the name and address behind it. A credit card just verifies that information because it needs to match a billing address. It won't do anyone any use to use a new credit card when they have the same address. Even if they do have a completely different name and credit card, as soon as they cheat they'll have that one banned too. Eventually it'll catch up with them. If they access to that many credit cards and identities somehow I don't think they'd be wasting their time submitting galleries.

LoveAsianChicks · 06-06-2002, 11:08 AM

Mikey cheating is basically:
- Adding popups
- Redirecting traffic
- Setting up dialers to auto download
- drastic change to the gallery after listed
- Use scripts to force homepage changes or bookmarks to change.

Using the wrong number of pics, too many banners, wrong recips etc... That normally just leads to a gallery being declined.

jimmyf · 06-06-2002, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mikey
So what now, you mean I have to have a fucking credit check done to submit a freaking gallery? Give me a fucking break!

If you want another credit card issued in another name, all you do is call the cc company and tell them to issue it, the main cardholder is liable for the bill, but the card is still issued in someone else name.

Again, how does this benefit me, the submitter?

Mikey I don't really think it does benefit you, the submitter.

And some of these people have rocks for brains...

YOU can NOT have credit card numbers floating around... And don't tell me they will not be. And they would not
be just credit card numbers but good credit card number...

Shit banks get RIPPED off every day, but you'll never hear about it.

Now am wondering how many Russian's that are into credit card fraud ARE reading this thread...... lining up for the
Slaughter.

Stop the cheaters.... never... make it harder for them Yes you can.
Doing it with a credit card number..... Very bad ideal... Very Bad..

You can not make any computer system 100% error proof... That's like writing some software ( say with just
10,000 lines of code) with NO bugs.... M fucking possible...

thehun you need to put your thinking cap back on big guy... shit your a programer... and know what am saying, most
of these other people Don't.... they are just agree with you because your thehun...

Tipsy · 06-06-2002, 11:10 AM

There have been 2 very relevant points made I think.

The first is the whole blacklisting thing but as has already been pointed out this should be fairly simple. By far the biggest problems are simply redirecting and changes to galleries (ie making a thumb blind). Perhaps copyright violation too (once proved). There should be no other reason for blanket blacklisting.

The second is for the people who don't have CC's. That would be a bigger problem for many people. Unfortunately (especially outside the US) many people can't get a CC for whatever reason.

Brown Bear · 06-06-2002, 11:14 AM

There are many countries where you can't get credit cards at all.

steffie · 06-06-2002, 11:17 AM

Do It Do it The Hun Rules
I go to tgp sites and see my pictures of MY Models on there not going to MY sites but to some freaking sponsor.
When I tried contacting one of those tgp sites and told them its stolen content and they need to remove me I got an email saying "Thats to bad but we cannot help you, we do not know who submitted it"
I emailed back saying they need to remove that link
Email back from that tgp site was "We cannot do that he didn't do anything wrong"
I contacted the ISP they told me "They cannot do anything!!
Screw them all...
Get a credit card info on that submitter, if they had that we would have known who that jerk was, and blocked him, killed him, flogged and feathered the MOFO...
My members content on a tgp site with links going to a jerk off sponsor is really getting to me. I catch one like that every couple of month.
My newer pictures are digimarked, however the older once are not and I really really hate that
Do it HUN, Do IT

Fletch XXX · 06-06-2002, 11:18 AM

I still dont see why some feel tgp is so detrimental to success in this Industry. I too believed it years back, but no longer. I think the idea is good but it wont stop anything.

I have stopped submitting galleries to tgps and focused on other aspects of gaining my OWN gallery traffic away from tgps and have increased my gallery sign ups. Not to mention overall traffic.

Friends (or people you are watching less) are usually the ones who steal shit from you when you least expect it. Put your trust in someone who gave ya 5 bucks, and you're asking to be ripped. Trust costs more than 5 bucks.

There will always be those of us who make small deals with tgp owners, we do them honestly and amongst people we associate with on icq, email whatever... of course Link Sites like the Hun and Thumbzilla n such are in a different league, but nevertheless it seems tgp owners always want more for less.

I am against giving away as much porn as all of you do.

hit my site http://superbooger.com and see who givs what away.

I barelygive a fucking picture away anymore, as most of you give 16 pic galleries of movies away like its nothing. Not to mention the minimum number of pics per gallery is increasing too! I have seen tgps that only allow 16+ pics, fuck you "Daves Dirty Links" id rather piss away my money with Ad Words than put a dollar in your greedy mouth.

Maybe my opinion and choices are fueled by experience and drive, I dont know, but I dont like feeding off of others, never have, never will. I make and pave my own way.

I have paid 50 bucks for a picture set and for concern of saturation hit a few link lists and no doubt, the same set is being given away by some cheater or newbie.

You guys really need to rethink things, and re educate the surfer. Giving away galleries is NEVER going to make you money anymore. Unless you're shooting exclusive content and have a good gimmick. Content providers and tgp owners are laughing all the way to the bank.

Re-educate the surfer. Thinking about it now, some webmasters need to be re-educated as well, some have lost their way.

Tipsy · 06-06-2002, 11:18 AM

There's also a lot posted about people getting around the problem with stolen CC's etc. This is possible but in reality would be so small as to be negligable. If you have valid and working CC's numbers there are far more profitable ways to make money before that number stops working, and sooner or later it will do.

Again, as has been pointed out the CC is purely a way of making sure the personal details are correct. The number stays 100% with a reliable and established 3rd party processor BUT the details entered to verify the card ie name ,address will be valid (for the card to work) and can be used.

No it's not perfect but far more so most other systems.

At the end of the day though it's the hun's site and if he thinks it;s viable..... *shrug*

Tipsy · 06-06-2002, 11:24 AM

Interesting post Fletch on the 'bad ol TGP' side of things although maybe not too relevant to the cheater thing but then this is GFY

They never have been the root of all evils as a good pay site offers far more than you could ever get for free.

I gotta agree that the vast majority of people submitting wont be making enough to be worth it but then I suppose in theory they wont be around long either.

Mikey · 06-06-2002, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LoveAsianChicks
Mikey cheating is basically:
- Adding popups
- Redirecting traffic
- Setting up dialers to auto download
- drastic change to the gallery after listed
- Use scripts to force homepage changes or bookmarks to change.

Using the wrong number of pics, too many banners, wrong recips etc... That normally just leads to a gallery being declined.

I can accept those rules. There is a difference being blacklisting a webmaster and declining a webmaster. But some tgp owners don't know the difference.

I know for a fact one of my domains is on a tgp blacklist for "having a url that is too long" yet that domain is lumped in with 404 cheats, cp assholes, and autodownloading buttwipes.

It seems like there is a couple of levels. First the universal tgp accepted level of what is cheating, then the individual tgp level for what is acceptable at that particular tgp, and finally, reasons for declining a gallery. The level this is on should be kept at the first level. BUT THE RULES MUST BE FOLLOWED BY ALL TGPS.

pr0view · 06-06-2002, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LoveAsianChicks
Using the wrong number of pics, too many banners, wrong recips etc... That normally just leads to a gallery being declined.

you don't have even the slightest idea how wrong you are, do you? i've been blacklisted at 2-3 tgps with NO REASONS AT ALL. i tried to contact them - they wouldn't respond. i've never used dialers or consoles and i regularly get listed at all big guys. BUT a few shitheads just decided to hit the "ban" button and pump their "how-fucking-important-i-am" ego.

if this idea ever works, the tgps should be controlled in some way and their "banning" rights should be limited. but who should control them? another flaw.

not to mention the fact that CC numbers can't just be given THAT EASY to non-bank entities. if shit happens, all involved parties on the "receiver's" end could face serious legal troubles.

NoCarrier · 06-06-2002, 11:29 AM

That would be a good idea.

Although I wouldn't want my credit card number to be distributed to ANYONE (i.e. smaller tgp's).

The only way to avoid this, would be to create a database with a username and password.

I signup at one place, give my CC info..

Then, all the other tgp's are connected to this database (without being able to access the data) and the tgp submit software verify the username and password everytime when we submit a new gallery.

Brown Bear · 06-06-2002, 11:31 AM

This kind of system would be nice, but it would be a nightmare to run it.

Juge · 06-06-2002, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Hun
The creditcard numbers are used for verification only, not to bill anybody. So the actual number doesn't have to be stored. There are checksums you can calculate which would be unique for every creditcard number but are impossible to generate the original creditcard number from. The checksum would be stored, not the original creditcard number.

This was my only concern - since even if a company is legit, a hacker can still hold all the numbers as ransom - it has happened before.

But, your solution seem perfect - if you cant reverse the algorithm, then the checksum is fine - just like any user can see all the encrypted passwords on a box, but it doesnt mean anything since you cant reverse them.

BUT - passwords are made so they dont include common dictionary words, since a hacker can make a porgram that encrypts the data the same way as the password program does, and run it on a dictionary on his own computer - and if there's a match, boom! he has your password. This doesn't happen because on most boxes, using a password in a dictionary is illegal.

BUT credit card numbers are just numbers. It would be very easy to run through them all. Now that I think about it - why can't the same be done for passwords? Maybe because 62 possible combinations for each character is too many (26 upper case letters + 26 lower + 10 numbers), but for numbers, there's only 10 possibilities per character.

You would have to store the name and as much other information as possible to make this very difficult.

Just my 2 cents.

06-06-2002, 05:48 AM	#53
sexyavs Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 615	Hun, Why dont you just charge your own submitters $5.00 a month to submit to you? Take paypal, ccbill etc.. would be a lil work in the beginning but would be easy to put in. Why pool it? Take free submissions as well.. Just have 3 levels Your paid top 10 already in place Premium submissions (5.00 a month for submitters) Free Submissions Then when you get enough of your premium submissions, just dont list free ones anymore. Pooling would be a headache, this way you keep it all in house. Chris __________________ <br> <a href="http://www.sexypassport.com/webmaster/webmaster.php?siteid=752359">Join the Highest Paying FREE AVS. </a><br> <a href="http://nakedpass.com/webmaster/webmaster.php">Naked Pass New FREE Avs Also Pays $20.00 Per FREE Signup!! </a><br> Have you checked out <a href="http://makefuckingmoney.com">Make Fucking Money!</a> Get Paid on FREE Memberships!

06-06-2002, 08:18 AM	#55
sexyavs Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 615	Hun, I didnt mean for you to make money off it.. I just mean $5.00 a month to take submissions from a webmaster isnt exactly making money but it would be getting identity and getting "real" submitters. I think just getting the credit card authorization would be enough to seperate them from the real cheaters. Take the $5.00 from each webmaster and give away prizes, Im sure that would go over ok. I think you would get minimal complaints and may even get better submissions.. my point is that trying to pool it I think you would have more headache than your project would accomplish. Chris __________________ <br> <a href="http://www.sexypassport.com/webmaster/webmaster.php?siteid=752359">Join the Highest Paying FREE AVS. </a><br> <a href="http://nakedpass.com/webmaster/webmaster.php">Naked Pass New FREE Avs Also Pays $20.00 Per FREE Signup!! </a><br> Have you checked out <a href="http://makefuckingmoney.com">Make Fucking Money!</a> Get Paid on FREE Memberships!

06-06-2002, 08:20 AM	#56
qdtobbe Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,688	The hun. you must have enought money to buy some guys. checking daily for cheaters __________________ Trade Hardlinks at Linkspun \| Domains For Sale

06-06-2002, 08:24 AM	#57
hyper Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mass Ass Posts: 5,294	hun, you could simply password protect your submit page with paypal subscriptions service, set the price at $5 a month or whatever. paypals ipn will issue a login and password instantly. i can give you the contact for the guy who handles the large corporate accounts and probably get you a reduced service fee. the problem is cheaters will pay also __________________

06-06-2002, 10:12 AM	#69
Snake Doctor I'm Lenny2 Bitch Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: On top of my soapbox Posts: 13,449	I am surprised as well that the content providers aren't chiming in here or even offering to pick up the tab for the expense involved in setting something like this up. If we could get rid of the stolen content floating around out there, I'd guess that submits to TGP's would drop by at least half. (probably more like 70-80% though) I agree with the principle behind the idea, but there are definitely alot of details that need to be ironed out so that its a fair system to everybody. __________________ sig too big

06-06-2002, 08:10 AM	#54
The Hun Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,207	Chris, my goal in this is not to make money, it's to get rid of cheaters, which will ultimately make me money anyway. People come to my site 'cause it's clean. I'd like to keep it that way

06-06-2002, 08:36 AM	#58
LoveAsianChicks Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: -CANADA- Posts: 1,464	Great idea to stop cheaters Mr.Hun, but I think setting up a tiny fee to submit galleries is a better solution to stopping cheaters. If you catch a cheater you will have his info & can ban the fool from paying again. Make it dirt cheap ($2 a month) and you at least get people submitting REAL info to pay the $2. This idea will solve your problem & is very pratical to setup.

06-06-2002, 09:07 AM	#59
darksoft Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: BumFuck Ohio Posts: 768	rogerbo had a VERY valid point on the part of the gallery submitter. Once the submitter pays for the "privilege" of submitting, there is no more guarantee of a listing than there is right now. So with this new system in place, not only are we not guaranteed a listing somewhere, we have to PAY to not be guaranteed a listing somewhere. Not much different than now, except we'd be paying to submit. No offense, Hun, but you don't exactly cater to the submitter anyway with your stringent rules of which sponsors can and cannot be used. Providing a list of approved sponsors on your site for gallery makers to use has been mentioned to you before many times and yet it's still not there. TGPs aren't the only ones getting cheated. The honest submitter has to bear the brunt of all the assholes that DO cheat already. And with rules out there such as you can't use this sponsor or you can only have 2 links, etc. At which point does it make it not worth it to do galleries anymore by other than a handful of people? I've seen some tgp's that only want ONE link to a sponsor on a gallery. wtf? At some point you(collectively) have to either lighten up on the gallery maker and let him make a few bucks or make the galleries yourself. Just my 2 cents...

06-06-2002, 09:17 AM	#60
MikeEP Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 464	No offense to anyone, but i believe TheHun is thinking above and way beyond the scope that has been mentioned in the few threads above. The whole point is rid cheating and especially theft as a whole. It's not a simple task and like everything else, it's not full proof. The point is to have a system everyone can use and conform to, without changing anything to there daily routine or sites. The honest submitter would get listed faster, the content providers with have access to people using their unlicensed content, the affiliates will have access to submitters using there content for other programs, the list goes on and on. The solution is not paying for the submission. To be honest, i think that's silly. Everyone complains about over saturation of most affiliate programs, content, TGP's, etc. This solution is vaulable to our industry in so many incredible ways. Stop the cheaters, stop the people stealing content, stop it all. Imagine an adult internet with no one stealing content to make galleries with and without cheaters. Obviously, content providers and affiliate program leader have to scan galleries to report content theft, etc, but would you do it if there was a system? Fuck, I sure would. I would guess at least 30% of the galleries makers would drop out, thus making affiliate programs less saturated, content will be worth more, honest submitters who purchase content will get listed faster, etc, etc. I'm not saying by any means that this is a total solution. There are tons of holes in the idea, but i believe it's very good beginning idea to get something started. As anything, things take time to catch on and cycle through. As I mentioned before, as a TGP owner, paysite owner, soon to be affiliate, and also a soon to be content provider, I would give anything to be able to surf galleries to see who's using my content for someone else's programs. Also to see who's using my content without a license. It's a huge project, but think of the industry 3 years from now. Get something started like this now, would probably take that long and maybe longer to really start showing a positive improvement.

06-06-2002, 09:25 AM	#62
DrewKole Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 5,193	Hmm, I think it's a very good idea to verify the actual submitter in some facet. What do I really think should be done? Instead of using credit card verification, create a "Terms and Conditions" that must be FAXED in, with the Name, Address, and Phone # of the person who wishes to have a login/pass. The # would be verified. The Terms page would state that the content used is licensed to them, and that if needed it will be provided, in addition to agreeing not to redirect, use various, scripts... etc. That provides a LEGAL basis, a WRITTEN contract, not to cheat, this is MUCH more important than just using someone's credit card... Who would pay for all of this? The TGP's... Wouldn't most of the big guys pay $30/mo for a service like this? Its fraud prevention, and will increase the productivity of their site. 1 person could run an operation like this... =) Hell, give me 2 weeks and I could have a legal contract and everything set up for this. =) Any comments?

06-06-2002, 09:31 AM	#63
MikeEP Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 464	I'm extremely surprised the content providers aren't on this idea like flys on shit.

06-06-2002, 09:34 AM	#64
darksoft Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: BumFuck Ohio Posts: 768	How about not listing assholes who put 30-50+ pics on a fucking page and not a single ad? Galleries like that DO get listed on TGPs and yet this isn't considered cheating? It's cheating the gallery maker out of sales! Shit like this gets priority over someone who is creating galleries in hopes of making a sale.

06-06-2002, 09:48 AM	#65
MikeyBoy Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 537	Great ideas listed and while we are at it, it would be great if we would make new rules for the galleries like max of 5-8 pictures per gallery and so and so on simply to limit the free pictures and movies and to ge better signup ratios

06-06-2002, 10:17 AM	#71
SunTzu Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: the box Posts: 456	Interesting idea, but... It's not hard to get multiple credit cards, someone could simply call their bank and ask for a new one. Or go to multiple banks and get the visa check cards instantly. And in Russia? I'm sure it's not too hard to get multiple bank acc'ts under different names considering a large percentage of them are run by organized crime. As for phone numbers, they're changeable (here anyway) for a few bucks within the day. We used to use weekly phone numbers for phone sex services way back when PINs weren't used. Just playing devils advocate

06-06-2002, 10:17 AM	#72
^R3K^ Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,815	Am I the only one who thinks it should be more than 2-5$.. I say 15-20$ Who doesnt have 20$ to spend make some money? BTW: Hun you have my phone number, you should accept me more often ;-))

06-06-2002, 10:29 AM	#73
letshunt Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 196	The idea sounds like a great one, I have some wonderful success posting with the hun and have enjoyed the fruits of my sites being posted there. Other TGP owners, however, may not, I should say do not, adhere to the idealistic view that the hun has upheld. Giving out any information to these guys comes with a certain level of risk. Even incorporating the checksum idea...a good hacker could defeat that with the right script. I have worked in internet security for quite some time...so...where does that leave you? Unless you are willing to invest in Cisco IOS and HIP technology...you leave yourself a bit wide open. Packets with checksums are detectable and it wouldn't take Albert Einstein to devise a script to defeat it. Kinda like the sniffers we use to monitor network usage. I agree on one point tho, less cheaters would provide opportunities for more honest webmasters...incorporating the technology to weed them out is certainly a major undertaking, maybe beyond the means of a smaller webmaster. With the throughput the Hun has, no PIX firewall is going to cover it...you are talking about enterprise level firewalls...software firewalls are sitting ducks for serious hackers...easy to defeat. Just some thoughts from a guy who does WAN design all day long.

06-06-2002, 10:31 AM	#74
LoveAsianChicks Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: -CANADA- Posts: 1,464	Password protect your submission page and charge $1 per month to submit. Hell you could setup a draw at the end up each month for $500 and give $100 to 5 Gallery submitters. That would cost a gallery submitter $12 per year to submit. If they can't afford that, they should starting handing out their resume to McDonalds and sell fries for a living. If someone does cheat you could ban their CC/name and they can't rejoin. A system like this could be setup in a week or less and the number of cheaters would be reduced 100 fold.

06-06-2002, 10:34 AM	#75
Brown Bear Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,982	Requiring people to have a credit card to be a TGP submitter would screw a lot of honest webmasters that currently submit galleries, but don't have a credit card. Not everybody has a credit card, and not every country in the world has credit cards. So you would be shutting out people that honestly submit galleries, but they just can't get a card. __________________ Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

06-06-2002, 10:34 AM	#76
Houdini Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,651	There's a company that is already doing this called equifax. eBay uses them right now to verfiy the identity of their buyers and sellers. The cost on the eBay site is $5.00 to be verified. It's definitely helped get rid of some cheaters over there. It may be something worth checking out. Last edited by Houdini; 06-06-2002 at 10:35 AM..

06-06-2002, 10:38 AM	#77
Rocco Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 30	I like the idea Thehun If we could have a systeme like that... We could kill a lot of cheaters and we could sleep better :-0 If your project work I want to have it for my tgp :-) Rocco

06-06-2002, 10:46 AM	#78
Mikey Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 665	So what now, you mean I have to have a fucking credit check done to submit a freaking gallery? Give me a fucking break! If you want another credit card issued in another name, all you do is call the cc company and tell them to issue it, the main cardholder is liable for the bill, but the card is still issued in someone else name. Again, how does this benefit me, the submitter?

06-06-2002, 10:52 AM	#79
Rocco Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 30	Mikey I have myself some TGP and I banned around 15-20 webmaster per day with TGP Brownie but the cheater come back with another domain... I'm really tired to see it and it should be more profitable for the honest webmaster because they will have a lot of less submission daily...I'm 100% with you thehun for this great idea... Rocco

06-06-2002, 10:53 AM	#80
Mikey Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 665	Everyone has referred to the term, "cheating" and "cheater" but has yet to actually define it. Some tgp owners consider breaking their rules as cheating, well the problem is they don't have set rules that are adhered to, plus they can change their rules anytime they want. There should at the very least be a set of rules adhered to ALL tgps that want to participate in this. What is considered a rule at one tgp isn't necessarily a rule at another tgp. How is this idea different than "partner status" at some tgps where we don't have to pay to submit?

06-06-2002, 10:56 AM	#81
TheFLY So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: http://www.thefly.net/ --- Quit your job and live off steady traffic. Posts: 11,856	checksum seems like a good idea to ensure privacy -- but this idea sounds very complicated... especially where blacklisting is concerned -- and how to identify the cheaters... cheater says, " if I get caught cheating I'll just whip out a new CC and identity... "

06-06-2002, 10:56 AM	#82
pr0view Confirmed User Join Date: May 2001 Location: Europe Posts: 270	before you start even discussing the specifics and details of such an idea, all of you - big tgp owners - should sit down and definte what a cheater is, what will lead to banning, will there be a "warning" system to someone who fucks-up, what methods can the submitter use to defend against a ban. you should syncronize your submit rules or else i might get banned at thumbzilla for something that is OK with JJJ. __________________ Make your surfers happy on my bandwidth Need voyeur content (pictures and videos)? Hit me on ICQ 83581235

06-06-2002, 11:00 AM	#84
LoveAsianChicks Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: -CANADA- Posts: 1,464	I'm sure you can block their billing address as well.

06-06-2002, 11:01 AM	#85
Rocco Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 30	We talk here about redirect traffic not about 12 pics or 15 pics minimum or which host or others things.... Rocco

06-06-2002, 11:08 AM	#87
Houdini Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,651	I think there's a lot of confusion that cheaters can just use a new credit card after they've been banned. The credit card is not the identity, it's the name and address behind it. A credit card just verifies that information because it needs to match a billing address. It won't do anyone any use to use a new credit card when they have the same address. Even if they do have a completely different name and credit card, as soon as they cheat they'll have that one banned too. Eventually it'll catch up with them. If they access to that many credit cards and identities somehow I don't think they'd be wasting their time submitting galleries.

06-06-2002, 11:10 AM	#90
Tipsy Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: See sig Posts: 6,989	There have been 2 very relevant points made I think. The first is the whole blacklisting thing but as has already been pointed out this should be fairly simple. By far the biggest problems are simply redirecting and changes to galleries (ie making a thumb blind). Perhaps copyright violation too (once proved). There should be no other reason for blanket blacklisting. The second is for the people who don't have CC's. That would be a bigger problem for many people. Unfortunately (especially outside the US) many people can't get a CC for whatever reason. __________________ Ignorance is never bliss.

06-06-2002, 11:14 AM	#91
Brown Bear Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,982	There are many countries where you can't get credit cards at all. __________________ Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

06-06-2002, 11:17 AM	#92
steffie Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Mountains, far far away Posts: 2,422	Do It Do it The Hun Rules I go to tgp sites and see my pictures of MY Models on there not going to MY sites but to some freaking sponsor. When I tried contacting one of those tgp sites and told them its stolen content and they need to remove me I got an email saying "Thats to bad but we cannot help you, we do not know who submitted it" I emailed back saying they need to remove that link Email back from that tgp site was "We cannot do that he didn't do anything wrong" I contacted the ISP they told me "They cannot do anything!! Screw them all... Get a credit card info on that submitter, if they had that we would have known who that jerk was, and blocked him, killed him, flogged and feathered the MOFO... My members content on a tgp site with links going to a jerk off sponsor is really getting to me. I catch one like that every couple of month. My newer pictures are digimarked, however the older once are not and I really really hate that Do it HUN, Do IT __________________ Partying since '96 and not going anywhere Anna's Dorm

06-06-2002, 11:18 AM	#93
Fletch XXX GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: that 504 Posts: 60,840	I still dont see why some feel tgp is so detrimental to success in this Industry. I too believed it years back, but no longer. I think the idea is good but it wont stop anything. I have stopped submitting galleries to tgps and focused on other aspects of gaining my OWN gallery traffic away from tgps and have increased my gallery sign ups. Not to mention overall traffic. Friends (or people you are watching less) are usually the ones who steal shit from you when you least expect it. Put your trust in someone who gave ya 5 bucks, and you're asking to be ripped. Trust costs more than 5 bucks. There will always be those of us who make small deals with tgp owners, we do them honestly and amongst people we associate with on icq, email whatever... of course Link Sites like the Hun and Thumbzilla n such are in a different league, but nevertheless it seems tgp owners always want more for less. I am against giving away as much porn as all of you do. hit my site http://superbooger.com and see who givs what away. I barelygive a fucking picture away anymore, as most of you give 16 pic galleries of movies away like its nothing. Not to mention the minimum number of pics per gallery is increasing too! I have seen tgps that only allow 16+ pics, fuck you "Daves Dirty Links" id rather piss away my money with Ad Words than put a dollar in your greedy mouth. Maybe my opinion and choices are fueled by experience and drive, I dont know, but I dont like feeding off of others, never have, never will. I make and pave my own way. I have paid 50 bucks for a picture set and for concern of saturation hit a few link lists and no doubt, the same set is being given away by some cheater or newbie. You guys really need to rethink things, and re educate the surfer. Giving away galleries is NEVER going to make you money anymore. Unless you're shooting exclusive content and have a good gimmick. Content providers and tgp owners are laughing all the way to the bank. Re-educate the surfer. Thinking about it now, some webmasters need to be re-educated as well, some have lost their way. __________________ Want an Android App for your tube, membership, or free site? Need banners or promo material? Hit us up (ICQ Fletch: 148841377) or email me fletchxxx at gmail.com - recent work - About me

06-06-2002, 11:24 AM	#95
Tipsy Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: See sig Posts: 6,989	Interesting post Fletch on the 'bad ol TGP' side of things although maybe not too relevant to the cheater thing but then this is GFY They never have been the root of all evils as a good pay site offers far more than you could ever get for free. I gotta agree that the vast majority of people submitting wont be making enough to be worth it but then I suppose in theory they wont be around long either. __________________ Ignorance is never bliss.

06-06-2002, 11:29 AM	#98
NoCarrier We need more free porn Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Montreal Posts: 16,356	That would be a good idea. Although I wouldn't want my credit card number to be distributed to ANYONE (i.e. smaller tgp's). The only way to avoid this, would be to create a database with a username and password. I signup at one place, give my CC info.. Then, all the other tgp's are connected to this database (without being able to access the data) and the tgp submit software verify the username and password everytime when we submit a new gallery.

06-06-2002, 11:31 AM	#99
Brown Bear Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,982	This kind of system would be nice, but it would be a nightmare to run it. __________________ Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.