Sure it would be small, but the number of cheaters is small compared to the number of honest webmasters. It is those few cheaters that submit the 100 plus domains each per day that fucks the tgp owners.

Everyone makes it seem like every other webmaster out there is a cheater. Most of the cheating is done by a relatively small number of people. For example this guy:
http://www.tgpowners.com/members/ubb...ML/000242.html

and this guy

http://www.tgpowners.com/members/ubb...ML/000251.html

I would bet the majority of tgp owners would not blacklist a site that submitted with the wrong recips or something minor.
I'm sure a few TGPS (as you said 2-3) blacklist for no reason at all, and I'm sure a few blacklist for little mistakes, but many would simply decline the gallery. Perhaps blacklist if they spot you submitting over and over again with the same mistakes.

If you eliminate free hosts and free email addresses and require a submission application to be filled out - complete with sample galleries before a submission password is generated - wouldn't it help on the cheaters?

Seems like most cheaters use free hosts and free email. The price of hosting - even for heavy TGP submitters has certainly come down in price lately so free hosting for TGP's isn't the issue it once was.

I don't see any way that a cheater wouldn't have a credit card or a card number gen script. How would a cc number prove someone wouldn't cheat?

I have no problem putting up some money - especially if it was a pool of TGP's - for submission, but I don't understand how a cc system would keep out cheaters and not harm honest webmasters with no credit card.

A credit card number doesn't take the place of a background check. If TGP owners banded together and had the same rules system - no free hosting, no free email, submit sample galleries, etc. and had a "white list" rather than a black list - maybe that would help.

Uhmm lemme think, my credit card with all private info in a pool for tgp webmasters? You guys start taking yourself too seriously, really.

Lets not forget what biz we are dealing with here folks. Its not like everyone here is just a college kid or has no life. me thinks there is a reason why everyone and his mother uses a nick here, heck even employees and owners of hosts often use only nicks in their correspondence with clients.

Hun, you never answer when one of those I-know-him-closely type of guys yells at you with "Patrick this and that" so that you won't even confirm that little part of privacy, and this although you made your millions already, how can you expect people who make just a few grand to give all their friggin details away to a bunch of porn peddlers just for the remote POSSIBILITY to get listed somewhere.

What's next, my phone number and address listed all over the place because someone had such a feeling that I may have cheated him.

Hell even my main sponsor doesn't have my credit card and other details but the company name, and he pays my house rent and everything ya know.

And someone mentioned make your bot better, and you said uhmm that would hit some people by accident who just wanted to fix their sponsor code. Well I say then get your friggin gallery straight BEFORE you post it.

Caring about such tiny BS but to hell with privacy? Hmmmm....

The only possibility I see is with accounts confirmed through phone calls like sublime does, although I'd surely like to see with which submitters you'd be left with that credit card thingy as you seem to go for the "I do it for the porn" hobby type of guys rather than serious webmasters to are in it for the money.

There is maybe 3-4 tgp's that I'd give my phone number, including the Hun, but my cc, address and shit? Uhmm lemme think.... :1orglaugh

and you don't have enough scripts to handle such stupid cheating?

most of the tgp guys would fall in love with that idea because that way they would feel oh-god-soooo-fucking important. :1orglaugh

just think about it - not only that they have tons of rules and arrogant behaviour but now they'd also "go financial" - their tgp will be like a "real bank and stuff" :1orglaugh

i can bear the consequences of being a gallery submitter - especially in the part where i'm treated like shit even though the surfers go to his tgp because of MY galleries. just don't go pushing it too far.

ah, shit, i guess i'm too drunk to post anymore :glugglug

Oh come one!!! this can't be serious!!!


The same guy that started out with hotlinking complete directories of pics on his Yellow pages wants to weed out cheaters!!!!


And don't tell me it isn't so I was there!

And we the gallery builders should trust that? pleassse!

Now with that out of the way let me recap:

In order to receive 80k of freeloaders watching our content, burning our bandwith and are the sole reason they return to your Yellow pages we now will have to pay????

I don't think so!

Another point I'm one of those lucky SOBS that know how CC verifictaion works technically and I can asure you ripping CC info online is childsplay!!! ergo I will NEVER I repeat NEVER use my CC online I'd rather download my own dialer and pay $ 3.99 a minute on my phonebill :1orglaugh

Third blacklists: ever compared your rules to those at Al4a? or Zilla's to Richard's?

Pipe dream that's all I can say.

Bottom lin eis this:

TGP site owners chose to be in that area of teh adult biz and as the saying goes can't take the heat? stay out of the kitchen!

Gallery reviews are part of the job, so is abuse management.

If you're to lazy to weed those fuckers out yourself go run pay sites or be a sponsor :321GFY

Let's see teh developement of the larger TGP's over the years:

They use bots to verify submisions so they have an easier time reviewing. when TGP Brownie arrived it becaime even easier it checks links, counts, thumbs, checks recips and more.

So these days they hardly have to do anything more then click yes/no a few times untill their list is complete.

For the gallerybuilders those large TGP's blacklist ya ass if you use an autosubmitter.

We get limited by often crazy rules on how to design our galleries

We get a shitload of traffic not converting because we can't do no real advertising on those galleries(yet the BW bill is comming)

Have to submit by hand because the idea of getting automated is unspeakable! and I should be burned at the stake for even mentioning it!(accurding to some of these mighter then thou TGP webmasters)

These days I submit to a handfull TGP's who's owners I find decent good folks and that's it I stick to picposts, TGP2 and linksites.

Thanks Hun for reminding me why I haven't submitted to ya in months now.

Good luck squeezing the gallery builder some more.

BTW Dossed anybody lately I know a few that received an honest load of that from ya!

Honest eh? Catching cheaters right? Well I know a certain dude that runs the Yellow pages who would be a good start.

<-- END OF RANT -->

Feeling better :)

CC

Who are the "rotten apples" you want to "hunt" down?

This is the point I am trying to make, The Hun has his shitlist, I may have my own shitlist. Is it fair to the people on my shitlist to get on The Hun's shitlist? Who controls the shitlist? For example, The Hun may have a good working relationship with Paul Markham, but he may be on my shitlist, by theory of this master plan, Paul Markham's galleries should be banned from The Hun, because I said he was on my shitlist.

Well said Codecrawler!

I would be for it.

Set it up through CCBill as a $1/mo recurring charge. Subscriber picks his own password which is automatically added to the password file (for password protected submission forms) of all participating tgp/link sites. Each tgp/link site owner can easily remove that password if the submitter cheats or doesn't follow their submission rules or whatever and it does not affect any of the other participating sites.

The $1/mo charge could go to the CC processing company for this service. If the amount wasn't sufficient to cover the processing fees, the participating tgps/linksites would have to pay a monthly fee to participate as well.


I would gladly use it.

Ok it's time to ask the Pro... OK woman were are you??

You know who am talking about...

Tell these people about the security issues with giving out credit card number on the Internet....

KK

Speak up lady... :winkwink:

I 100% agree with this part. Kind of hypocritcal.


But... the only reason I think the credit card thing is a good deal is because, anything that lessens the competition, I'll support!!
:) Has nothing to do with weeding out cheaters, etc..

I think it would also be a good idea to only accept webmasters who use platinum cards and whose last names start with S.


RD

I'm sure this is not about the "real" cheating that you mean. His own scripts beats those listed above a hundred times. So that cannot be the real concern here.

My guess is he just wants to ultimately enforce his "one per 4 days" rule through this.

If true, then it's too much asked for in my opinion, considering the possible "damage" and the fact that he is tracking everything under the sun already, from what I hear.

Tooooo funny, but am sure you hit it right on the head for some of the people for something like this...:thumbsup

More quality galleries for free, not to mention 5 bucks from everyone who submits, every day, every week, every year... not to mention if you dont think the cost will go up your an idiot, sure it will be 5 now, but in 6 months it wont be.

Variable multiplied by the number of submitters and days in the month times 12 is what this is about, better galleries and 5 bucks [per submitter to list them]

Thats what I'd say this is really about.

Fletch I think you underestimate how serious the Hun is about that one per 4 days thingy, and I think he is NOT going for the 5 bucks or whatever it would be, he has really that equal chances for everyone thingy deep in him

and is a GOOD GUY for sure DID YOU HEAR THAT HUN hehe

Indeed. Quit fucking the submitters and make your money from the surfers, as it is SUPPOSED to be.

I just have to say that coming from a new webmasters point of view, getting listed on some of the larger TGP sites is extremely difficult. Trying to come up with "clean" galleries, with little advertising, layouts, pictures etc can be a pain. We are expected to put more pictures of unique content with fewer banners on hosts that we pay for. So where does our money come from? Granted I made the decision to get into this business and I am sticking to it, however my point is that I can see both sides.

1. If the webmasters are "GUARANTEED" on the galleries this would be fine. I quite often dont submit to the larger sites more than once every few days anyhow, while I submit to the smaller ones daily. But with that the guidelines should be loosened for those webmasters who are going to be validated. By giving the gallery makers a little more flexibility they have the better oportunity to make money. Everything must be in moderation of course, I still dont think dialers etc should be placed, but we should be able to put more than 1 banner on the page. Clean doesnt mean NO advertising , it just means a nice looking page. We cannot be expected to pay for submissions, pay for content, pay for hosting, etc and not have but 1 banner on the page. It just wont convert. (I am learning that :) )


2. I can see where others dont want to submit for verification because of credit issues, as well as lack of guarantees. I am a beginner and would not even know how to CHEAT a TGP site. I use some auto-submission programs to reduce my workload. After all automation is the key. I still hand submit to all the larger TGP's and use things like RS for the smaller TGP's. I just think the rules would need to be adjusted properly to make it advantageous for all.


Again, I am still new to the industry and so I don't know what types of cheating takes place etc., but even from what I have read I have a disadvantage to getting posted based on time zone. That alone could be a big difference on if you get posted. I believe Shemp even stated that when he gets through the first X number of submissions he doesnt really pay attention to the rest. I think simple partnership arrangements and an organization of legitimate webmasters is probably the key. If the organization was created handled by a 3rd party non-profit organization, etc it might be to everyones benefit to have some sort of governing authority over blacklists, listings etc. Ok, I am done rambling on....just my thoughts.


peace,
AJ

I would agree with that and that's not really aimed at the hun - at least you can usually have a reasonable amount of banners with him. Many just take the piss but then it could be argued if you don't like the (often very OTT) rules.....

Hun - how about this for an idea:

Have a script that 'looks' at a gallery page when it is submitted (similar to the one you have now) - and then checks it again periodically. If there are any changes made on that page, then the script will 'kill' the gallery.

I think that sounds like a good idea - and it could be done inexpensively - and that would solve your cheater dilemma.


:2 cents:

Well this whole scheme sounds to me like the next way to try to make mony while hiding the fact that it is getting harder and harder to make money of a TGP due to all the freeloaders they created themselves!

I'm TGP2 all the way and threads like thi smake me even more determined :winkwink:

CC

The bottom line was a plan to be setup that would make it harder for cheaters to continue to submit galleries after they have been caught cheating.

Maybe it could be some free system or you pay a damn buck to a third party processor.
This wasn't some master plan by thehun to make millions more dollars or squeeze the gallery submitter even more.
He simply wants to weed out the assholes who 404 galleries and such after they are listed.

What the fuck is the problem?
submit honest galleries and your fine, this plan was to screw the guys who make a living cheating and being dishonest.

Exactly.

Directed to everyone: I also want to know, how much do you guys make off of gallery listings? Honestly.

Lets hear how big these tgps are making you.

There are as many cheaters on Free Host as on paid hosting. Don't bash on the free hosts idiot..... The honest free hosts offer a good service to those who need it and to those who know how to use it to their advantage. Stop blaming Free Hosts for the scum bag webmasters that cheat.

I don't really see why a good bot can't detect cheating and still allow freehosts. A bot that spoofs http_referer and http_user_agent fields and works through proxies can't really be detected. If that bot checks for banned words, banned sponsors, banned javascripts, server redirection and whatnot then how do the cheaters get through?

I don't run a tgp and have only ever submitted about a dozen galleries as it isn't really my cup of tea; I'm just surprised that a well coded LWP bot can't keep 'cheating' down to a tiny window of vulnerability equal to the time it takes the bot to re-check a gallery.

On another note the accountability of this type of system would probably reduce content copyright violations significantly.

cheers

you find this idea great? ok then, i have a suggestion - my lawyer will prepare a legal document that will make you liable for all financial losings that i might experience while using that system and you will sign it. if you find the system so perfect and great, you'd have no problem with that... right?

Its my opinion many here barely have diplomas or a degree, let alone Lawyers bro, I do, and I wouldnt sign that.

:thumbsup

if tgp owners wanna get more lazy than ever and have 100% clean listings, they should accept a load of responsibility on their fragile shoulders :1orglaugh

you can't get something without giving back another thing.

and, please, spare me the bullshit that the honest submitters will benefit if your listing is 100% cheater-free. the only one who benefits something is the tgp owner because his bookmarkers will remain with him.

For Fletch:

About 2 years ago I made about $ 250 of a gallery listing on the larger TGP's

This slowly decreased to $ 100 these days(at least up to 3 months ago when I stopped posting to those all together)

This goes to show you how it's going downhill.

Now something different:

I still submit to about 20 mid sized TGP's (Think 20 to 50k TGP's) and link to my TGP2 for it.

I can easily make teh $ 250 from TGP traffic filtered to my TGP2

Just to show you canmake a buck from TGP traffic but you gotta be more creative now ;)

CC

Sorry about touching the nerve on free hosts but every TGP or Link List owner I've ever talked to who's been in the business longer than 5 minutes has always said the majority of the problems they have is with people on free hosting with free emails.

And there seems to be quite a number of LL's and TGP's who out right ban submissions from them. Now maybe some of it is the redirect techniques or the slow loading or other problems associated with free hosts but I ran a non adult free host for a while and I know from experience that the scum bags of the net world are attracted to them like moths to a flame.

Yes free hosts serve a purpose - but they are also targets for abuse. There are major programs who won't accept affiliates from certain countries. And that doesn't mean that everyone in that country is a cheater or scammer. Everyone does what they need to in order to stay in business and make a profit and if that means blocking those areas that a majority of cheaters come from - whether its a host, an ip or an entire country - well then those are the steps they have to take.

Don't know how I missed this thread, and honestly I've only read the first page of yet.

Quite frankly, I'd say you can do it if you like Hun -- be it charging a couple bucks or not for a passcode. I can think of an easy way to get around having to charge and still being sure you have the right person, but I'll leave that to the details.

Personally I think you might as well charge -- anyone who can't pony up 5 bucks to get listed shouldn't be in the business to start with. I've told alot of freehosts over the years that if they had a nominal setup charge, collected real information from the people uploading to their servers, that they wouldn't have ten percent of the problems they have.

Now, regarding the legality or illegality of the whole thing regarding resellers.

No, you can't just up and start a blacklist that passes from person to person and is used to stop people from making money.

What you CAN do, is form an association, have a set of rules, and so long as the person isn't blacklisted from sites outside the association due to things that have happened within the association, then there really shouldn't be any sort of issue with it from a legal standpoint. Just make sure you are disclosing to the reseller what he is getting and what the terms are up front and in plain wording.

Maybe I should send you an email Patrick ;)

WoW Kimmikim and TheHun let's go for this stuff....

I will be really happy to add it for my tgp

Rocco

So what is to stop someone from getting into this system and saying that someone else was cheating? What I mean is, there are webmasters that loathe each other and would take delight in screwing the other guy even without proof.

Mikey

=================================

Ain't that the truth !

Scam, Scam, Scam!

Let's see

I pay for the content

I pay for the bandwidth

I supply the TGP with content(TGP without content = CJ2)

And if Hun has his way I pay for a submission without guarantee of placement.

Now The TGP owner:

He reviews the shit and pays the laughable Bandwidth bill of his site that doesn't host any content.

Now can anybody explain to me how this is a fair deal?

TGP the way it is now is anal enough allready we don't need crap like this.

And like I said and will say again it's a scheme to make good for the decline in sales on the TGP itself.

So in a nutshell:

They created the freeloaders.
They can't make enough money of em anymore(their own fault!)
We get to pay the bill.

I'd say that warrant a big fat GFY!

CC

This has all-ready been answered... Won't work... although some TGP do this and then blacklist you for making a correction on your gallery..

heheeee I think I like you......

Well it's the truth!

The more I see from The Hun the more I'm inclined to believe that this good guy image he built up is a clever disguise for a money hungry shark

Look at this thread:

During all his posts he kept referring to a fee
While this could easily be done free
But free isn't an option because he needs to compensate for his decline in $$$

Another strong argument to support my suspicion is his own webmaster page:

Read and weep:

Taken from http://www.thehun.net/webmaster/

The only thing I agree with is the Cyberthrill scam. They rippe dme off to in those days.

All the others on there are chargebacks!

Which in turn says something aboutthe traffic I'd say.

So yes I stand by my earlier remark:

IT'S A SCAM!

CC

It's a dirty job that somebody has to do I suppose :winkwink:

Do I detect a hint of jealousy? :winkwink:

CC

I think it's a good idea, but the thing about cheaters is that it's almost a game with them to try and beat the system so there will ALWAYS be some idiot trying to pull some sort of crap. The trick is to minimize it as much as possible.

Personally I think getting to know a submitter is the best route. Reputations take time and effort to build and they, and references, are usually the BEST route to finding trustworthory people. I've actually had people use me as a reference and TGPs have phoned me verifying that reference. They know I don't give out my reference lightly.

The question remains - how does a new guy break in? Hun's idea is good, I'm all for it but it may scare some new people away as newbies tend to be timid on things like verification. I suppose they should learn to deal with it though, one can'nt live in a bubble forever.
I've always been for things like verification of a submitter. I believe in phone calls and meeting people in person too. It's a lot more difficult to screw someone you know over then just a nameless and faceless website.

OK I think I've sorted thru the rest, except for some long shit that was way too ranty for the topic and I'll comment a little bit more --

First off, if you used a processor, the card numbers don't float around anywhere. The only person that has them is the person that processed them. That's a Visa regulation and is therefore not an issue.

Second off, if the submitters are paying a recurring billing, it's got to be at least 2.95 a month or you won't get processors to touch it, since no one is going to go in the hole doing this. If you need the math on this let me know.

Third -- and very important here IF you had a processor manage it -- there would have to be a web site -- even if it's only one page and a join page -- that CLEARLY spells out the terms and conditions of what's being sold. Meaning that whatever rules were going to be enforced, would have to be clearly stated on the terms. The sites that were participating would also have to be clearly stated on the terms. There would also need to be some disclaimer about the sites keeping their own specific rules for actually being listed, etc. since that wouldn't be part of the blacklisting, just being turned down, as I understand it.

As to who got the money, that's an accounting issue, and I'd imagine there would be some division of it, though it wouldn't be a processing issue, since we'd simply cut the check(s) as directed by the person who started the account.

On the topic of just how someone would be blacklisted, well, some processors, specifically us, do not use a negative database per se -- while we do keep a db of bans for processing, they are not built around card number, so they do work. Site owners can request that certain subscribers be banned from charging anything else at their sites and we honor those requests.

Once again, if someone doesn't have five bucks to prove they are in business, they probably shouldn't be in business. I'd suggest that if this were done, Paypal, US checks, maybe even a Web900 type payment be utilized as options, that should pretty much cover everyone. Otherwise I'm sure that mailing in a money order for X months pre-pay would work too.

Last but not least, if the Hun, or anyone he partners with, decide to do this, if they've got the clout to get people to comply, more power to them. This is a business, not a freaking charity ward. If you don't like the idea, don't pay, don't submit... same thing with sponsors, if you don't like them, don't use them...

I agree Sleazy it's not the verification thing I have a problem with.

It''s the way it's proposed:

1 Use of CC's it is just not safe! Take my word on it ripping CC info online is childsplay I coul dteach it to a goddamn monkey!

So I will not use it online EVER!

2 The fee part. That leads me to believe that it's a scheme to make money from the gallerybuilder to make up for declining sales on the TGP.

So in a nutshell verification fine, partner accounts, passwords or Al4a's new system no argument from me.

But what has been proposed here is wayyyyyyyy off!

It's insane stuff like this that creates cheaters.

It's like back in the 90's we has those speeding signs on the highway saying 120 km/h with the picture of a female politician next to it.

At the first sign you think yeah right
At the second you get irritated
At the third you go fuck you bitch and drive 180

Same goes for TGP

First rule limits your ads you go well ok
Second you can't use certain sponsors you get a bit annoyed but go along

Third What has been proposed here by then a lot of people that would otherwise never have cheated go allright you bastard now ya gonna get it!

It's counter productive.

CC

Cyberthrill Casino - Probably the biggest scam site in the history of the Internet.

I haven't been to their site since they fucked me a few years ago, so I clicked on the link above there - but there's a comma in the hyperlink, so it doesn't work properly.

If you go to their site, it looks like it's being forwarded to Slotland, with a ref code no less!

Those rotten bastards.


:mad:

Open your own TGP and post your own galleries - it will be fair deal for you. But you will make 0 out of it.

Sleazy which one of your sites do you accept submissions for, Ill call you now.

Kimmy Kim,

You're missing my point.

It's not about a lousy 5 bucks it's the why.

If I the gallerybuilder provide the webspace, bandwidth and the content I allready pay the most of the operation.

Its dudes like me keeping the TGP in business. And don't say they would go self stocked if we stopped because I'd like to see it producing 50 - 100 fresh galleries with new content a day, paying the BW and the content :winkwink:

We allready pay and we shouldn't have to pay just to be able to submit.

Now if it guaranteed placement that's another story.

But not just for submitting.

CC

SO let me get this right, I have to pay a fee to "verify" that I am a legitimate webmaster and then give up my private details just so I could submit a frigging gallery that might or might not get listed while at the same time give joe-i-don't-know-the-difference-between-declining-a-gallery-because-he-didn't-follow-my-dumb-ass-rule-like-no-amateur-pages-sponsor-so-i-will-just-label-this-submitter-a-cheater-tgp-owner the right to say what is acceptable and what is not.

I could see it now, then next will be your galleries must look like this:

banner
pic pic pic pic pic
pic pic pic pic pic
pic pic pic pic pic
banner

Then after that it will be, you can only use these sponsors.

Then after that it will be, we have decided to charge you to submit a gallery to our site, but that in no way guarantees a listing, just that it will be reviewed by a human being instead of sitting in the cue (sound familiar you yahoos?)

I allready do but thenwith TGP2 and I make good money with it thank you :321GFY

CC

The Hun already doesnt allow MANY sponsors, I ws suprised to see Cashquest banned, since Webquest runs Flynt Digital.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by mic

Open your own TGP and post your own galleries - it will be fair deal for you. But you will make 0 out of it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


As I said before go to my site http://superbooger.com and see who gives what away...

I make hundreds a week off of fake tgps supplied with my own galleries. And judging by my own calculations, you show me a gallery that you consistently make hundreds off of per week.

:thumbsup

I think it is a good idea to know who everybody is who is submitting. The main reason people cheat so much i sdue to the anonymity of the internet. People cheat becasue they think they can get away with it.

So I have no problem with people having to submit credit cards.

I would even go a step further and fine people who are caught cheating.

Also every TGP rule could have a fine asociated with it. Too many banners: $10 fine, Blind Links: $20, use of pop-ups: $45, Change the pages after submitting: $50 fine, use stolen content: $100 fine. :BangBang:

And another thing lol ---

as to the actual being able to submit and all that -- it would be really simple to implement that part -- on the site you're using for joins, you also have a members area -- in the members area is the submit area for the sites that are participating, so if someone hasn't paid they can't get access to the submission page.

This member area could also be used in a way to help submitters as well. Keeping them up to speed on what each site prefers etc, giving them tips to getting listed that others dont see, etc etc