rants

I was reading a bunch of articles about social mobility and the class structure in America. There is a chart here http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html.../index_01.html
where you can enter your own info in regards to occupation, income, and education and see what class you are in, lower class, middle, or upper.

I myself as a webmaster would consider myself in sales, not in the computer/math section as I don't know how to program and don't have a degree in computer science. So I clicked on "sales" and then "sales advertising" which unfortunately falls in a very low "class. I suppose anything having to do with sales is low class in general but porn is probably worse It says "advertising sales" is in the 36th percentile which is low

Even if you make a lot of money, prestige also helps determine the class that you are in. Even if you make more than a lawyer for example, the lawyer would still be in the upper percentile and higher in prestige in terms of his/her
profession.

My income says I'm in the 97th percentile which is high enough for me, but occupation is 36th percentile My education is also low, only high school, so it brings my class level down. Although my income is decent, my wealth isn't too great because I'm still saving/investing working on that so I'm not yet where I want to be.

How do you guys feel about the job of internet sales in general in the "class structure" of America? I'm a bit miffed it's so low.

Also I know class in general also has to do with how refined and cultured you are and if you do activities such as going to the opera, visiting art museums, etc...

I just find it a very interesting topic and wanted to discuss with people how being an adult webmaster affects class/social standing...

RobbieRye

Social class is determined by the people you associate with. If you associate with affluent important people who are considered by others to be in a high social class, then you yourself are in a high social class.

Measurements of income, job description, education, etc, are tangible inaccurate measurements.

rants

This is true, but I think class also has to do with being exposed to certain culture growing up. There are a lot of very rich people who are still considered low-class and vulgar. For example those footballers wives I read about on gossibp blogs, like that Colleen woman in England, their multi-millionaires but still considered tacky and noveaux riche, and do crass things, such as the way they talk (loudly and without class) and dress tackily (such as head to toe designer clothes).

I think class also has to do with going to museums, enjoying art, wine tastings and things of that nature. Anyone can go to Paris on vacation, but if all you do is go clubbing that's not really "high class", someone more cultured
would go to the Louvre... etc

Your right that it does have to do with the people you associate. If you go to those boarding/prep schools for rich kids your more likely to mingle with kids of politicians, etc...

I think class also has to do with knowing which fork to use and how to properly set your fork. I guess I'm low class cause I was never even taught that properly. My friend told me that he can tell someone's breeding by how they place their fork, you don't just place it on the plate... It has to be pointed a certain way and put on the correct section of the plate...

Doctor Dre

I guess you could call your business sales, and your job webmaster. 2 different things.

People don't seem to do the difference thought.

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rants

Yea on the Ny times chart it tells you how high class your profession is in terms of "social class" and sales is considered very very low, in the 36th percentile. So I guess it doesn't matter if you sell porn, not matter what you sell, as long as its in sales it's low. I also wonder why that is, why is sales low? I guess it doesn't contribute as much to society as a doctor or lawyer does and not much education is involved. Even if you make good money they still consider it low class.

ajrocks

I think its how you carry yourself and how much money you make.

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travs

true that

rants

According to the chart it's also according to your education and occupation. If you make a million a year but your have only a high school education and your job is in "SALES", it will not rank you high class.

Just the occupation of being in SALES whether it's porn or cars or houses will bring your class down. Go to the chart and put it in your income, no matter how high it is, if your occupation is sales it will bring it down a lot and not consider you high class.

If someone is a doctor and makes less than a webmaster, it will rank the doctor with higher class and prestige, much higher than someone who makes more but is in sales. so the actual occupation matters too.

Agent 488

class is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

don't let no fucking chart confuse you.

Spunky

So true..but sales always flucuate..you may be doing well one year and scrape by the next

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rants

Also I think "old money" is more prestigious than "new money, people born into money are have different manners and more refined taste usually.

A sociologist named Warner said:

"American social class was based more on attitudes than on the actual amount of money an individual made. For example, the richest people in America would belong to the "lower-upper class" since many of them created their own fortunes; one can only be born into the highest class. Nonetheless, members of the wealthy upper-upper class tend to be more powerful, as a simple survey of U.S. presidents may demonstrate (i.e., the Roosevelts; John Kennedy; the Bushes)"

This makes me think it's more than about just money.

Also here is how class is defined:

* occupation
* education
* income
* manners, style and cultural refinement. For example, Bourdieu suggests a notion of high and low classes with a distinction between bourgeois tastes and sensitivities and the working class tastes and sensitivities.
* net worth
* power
* ownership of land, property, means of production, slaves...
* political standing vis-à-vis the government
* reputation of honor or disgrace
* social prestige, as from an honorary title, or association with an esteemed organization or person
* Language, the distinction between elaborate code, which is seen as a citerion for "upper-class", and the restricted code, which is associated with "lower classes"


Income is PART of it, but not all I think.

rants

I am reading about this topic and I found this on a pbs site :

At the bottom, people tend to believe that class is defined by the amount of money you have. In the middle, people grant that money has something to do with it, but think education and the kind of work you do almost equally important. Nearer the top, people perceive that taste, values, ideas, style, and behavior are indispensable criteria of class, regardless of money or occupation or education.

So their saying that basically if you only use money to identify class, that's actually a sign of being low-class

Agent 488

so if you have no $ but have great "taste, values, ideas, style, and behavior" you are top class? yeah right! tell that to the country club!

Doctor Dre

I don't think this was made for business owners.

An employe on comission is under a lot of stress, and don't make that much.

But adult sites (profetional people), even affiliates, are small business owners.

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rants

I think you probably need everything to be well rounded, because money of course can give you access to do things which are more high class such as going to the opera and visiting museums in Europe, I think they are just saying that money is not enough. That if you just have money but are not cultured, you are not really high class. That high class people act refined and have different mannerisms, they know which fork to use and how to place them properly... Things like that...

I do think it's possible to be high class if you don't have a ton of money, but it's impossible to be high class if your really poor/destitute. For example some families have lost their fortunes, but they still mingle with the elite society crowd...

Sometimes I think you have to be born into it. Sometimes I am bored and I read this site called the NewYorkSocialDiary, and I think that most of the people there are high class and from "old money". If you are a millionaire it doesn't necessariy mean those people will accept you. They are very tightly knit and I think you have to be born into it or something. For example the "Mortimers" in the NY scene, to be honest I don't even know who they are or what their about but they are always in those society pages, and I guess Tinsley Mortimer is considered "high" on the social ladder in NY.

Doctor Dre

You can be stupid, not know how to manage money and get rich... you don't laways have to be the smartest tool of the bunch.

People who have been for generations have tons of contacts, and know what to do with their money to make it work for them.

I guess that's what they are talking about.


I personally think knowledge is 80 % of class... knowledge of how to talk / treat people. About having class by spending a lot of money in a restaurent ... well in mtl there is 2 italian restorants who's cuisines are the same ... one charge 25-30 $ per plate, other charge 8-10. Same shit.

Class is an illusion to a lot of people.

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rants

Yea your right. I looked again on the chart and went to "business" and then "management and operations", that's probably for business owners which we would fall in, and it's considered 53rd percentile, right in the middle.

reynold

I agree to that saying. money should'nt be the only basis of any webmasters social standing but it's the buy product of a hardwork and luck.

rants

What do you think of activities that determine your class tho? From what I have been reading, high-class and being cultured :

Going to museums
Being knowledgeable about art
Going to opera/theater
Going on wine tastings
Having intellectual pursuits

Low Class:

Flaunting too much logos/designers, being "newly rich"
Talking loudly, bad manners
Bad etiquette, not knowing which fork to use
Not being cultured/refined

I always wondered who those NY society people that I read about? How did they get to be high society? Mostly they are rich but connections too I guess...

CDSmith

Well, you've got your grunt webmaster who works for others and is always broke or near-broke,

and then you have your webmaster who owns their own business, who is their own boss, who runs their own network of sites and services, who is financially secure.

One is a grunt, the other is not.

So the term "webmaster" has different connotations, thus it holds varying positions on the proverbial "class ladder".

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Libertine

Social class is a complicated concept. The first thing you have to realize about it is that there are various "ladders", most of which overlap in part yet at the same time are mostly independent.

For example, there is the "intellectual" ladder. This depends partly on education and occupation, but also on erudition, debating skills and other such things. A university professor is an example of someone who is high on this ladder, but so is a radical philosopher.
Then, there is the "refinement" ladder. This depends on behaviour and habits, as well as such things as language, etiquette, social network, etc. Old money tends to rank well here.
After that, there is the "cultural" ladder. This depends not on things such as visiting museums and drinking good wines, but on actually being involved in or (even better) producing original, authentic culture. Artists, gallery owners, avant garde authors, etc. do well in this.
Then, of course, there is the "money" ladder - how that one works is obvious.
Also, there is "fame" - just as obvious.
Further, there is "power", which is more about perceived power than real power. Politicians and those with good social networks do well here.
Also, there is "tradition", which fully depends on good heritage.
And then there are tons of small other ones.

This is the reason that the controversial artist looks down on the university professor (who is a part of the establishment), who looks down on the politician (who is an intellectually empty populist), who looks down on the businessman (who is greedy and lacks perceived power), who looks down on the aforementioned controversial artist (who is poor and commercially unsuccessful).

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rants

That's a very detailed and thorough explanation of everything, thanks Punkworld

Major (Tom)

well it boils down to this..
you can have a nice lambo and a nice house and be in porn and be considered amongst many to be on top of the world. You can also be a plastic suregon with the same income as the porn guy and will never be able to touch the md's social status.
I guess thats the way it works.
Duke

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Pete-KT

Depends how hard you work

rants

Iv'e always been fascinated with "old money" people in America and the things they do, like go to the Hamptons for the summer or Nantucket, and they wear a lot of Lily Pulitzer?

This is something interesting I found from a book review from amazon.com reviewing a professor's book on class:

Paul Fussell has concluded that overweight people are usually of lower class. Clothing and clothing color, also expresses class. A scarf is considered upper class, simply because it is useless.

A person wearing a white shirt and white pants can be considered to be upper class while a person wearing blue is thought to be middle class, and a person wearing purple is considered to be of lower class.

Too much jewelry can also lower a person's class. Flashy jewelry represents middle to lower class, while simple, elegant jewelry represents the upper class. An upper class watch is very simple but the more the watch does, the more middle to lower class the watch becomes. Also, simple accessories such as neck ties and hats can raise or lower one's class. A necktie, is upper class while a bow tie, is lower class.

Hats that have adjustable straps and brand names are lower class hats while simple, leather or white hats are upper class hats.

A house's surroundings, accessories, and architecture represent a person's class. A driveway that is longer and the harder to find is upper class. Next, the way in which the number of the house is presented, can raise or lower class. A simple display of the numbers are considered by Paul Fussell to be middle to lower class. However, a house with the numbers spelled out represents upper class.

A person's lawn also determines their class. The upper class will have trees in their lawn, the middle will have an immaculate lawn and the lower will have a discolored and unhealthy lawn. Also, the larger the windows the person has, the higher up they are on the class hierarchy.

Paul Fussell, also describes how a television represents one's class. The lower class might have one or two small televisions, the middle will have five televisions, and the upper will hide their televisions. Paul Fussell, also explained the drinking habits of the classes. The lower class will drink beer, the middle will consume bourbon and ginger, and the upper will drink white wine or other light alcoholic beverages. The upper class will have a cocktail hour in which they drink and talk prior to the dinner. The middle and lower classes will simply have their drinks during dinner.

The automobile also represents a person's class. The lower class drives dated Fords, Plymouths, Cheveys and Crystlers with bumper stickers stuck to the back of the car. The middle class drives new Fords, Plymouths, Cheveys, Crystlers, and S.U.V's. The upper class drives BMW's, Mercedes, and any other expensive car.

The only audible reference to class made by Paul Fussell was that of a person's speech. A person's vocabulary is a marker of their class. The lower class will use expressions such as "Golly!" or "Oh my Lord!" The middle class speaks very intelligently using complex words every now and again. The upper class speaks with complex words continuously integrating them into their speech. Also, little variances in a person's speech can express their class. The upper class tend to use less syllables.
When saying beautiful the upper use three syllables while the middle and lower use four.

The names given to clothes by people also can represent their class. The upper class call a tuxedo a "formal dinner jacket," the middle call a tuxedo a "tuxedo", and the lower call a tuxedo a "tux" In conclusion, Paul Fussell discusses many aspects of class. After reading Class, one can easily judge their own social standing as well as the class of others. Class, correctly depicts the signs, symbols, and customs of the American class system. Thus, by describing what class is, Paul Fussell provides the reader with a description of America.

rants

I thought plastic surgeouns are higher in occupation status than general md's? They went through the same schooling except a plastic surgeon had more in depth training than a general family practitioner and specialized in a given field, so they actually had more education than a md?

Just like all surgeons are higher than md's and have had more traning...
And orthodontist are considered higher than regular dentists.

Major (Tom)

I was just pointing out a plastic suregon is an md. Even if he was just a regular md, making the same money as a porn guy, be it he owns a billing company, or owns the biggest affiliate program, you are in porn... He is not..
Thats what it boils down to... But i dont care really. seems my m.d. and lawyer neighbors dont mind getting head when i have some hoes over in my pool... So as Plato said, we all have our usefullness and come together to form a community.

Duke

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Choppa

I cant comment on the american situation but i had a 6 year degree in Pathology/medical biotechnology in Australia, under the AMA Australian Medical Association a GP (general practioner) is basically at the lower end of the foodscale as per se. More qualified degrees whereby the student or doctor goes into a chosen field like Vascular, Pathologist, ENT, Genterological etc these degrees come with greater Social stratafication

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Pornwolf

That attempt to quantify social class misses in a lot of regards.

As someone said before class is pretty much defined by your associations, friends, job, employers prestige & location. A moderately successful fashion designer is considered a higher class of person in New York than an upper level Manager at WalMart.

But, on the other hand, if you switch locations to Bentonville, Arkansas which is the world headquarters for WalMart, then you couldn't be a bigger willy than to be a mid to upper level manager for the chain. A fashion designer then becomes an odd homosexual that is avoided.

Class is specific to surroundings in more cases than not.

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rants

Yes this is true, that fashion designers are of course considered elite and extremely popular in a fashionable place like NY, Paris or Milan but in middle-america they would probably considered very gay and odd

Also a lot is upbringing/associations like you said, like those old families from NY like the Mortimers or those other society people who do charity balls and events for the Metropolitan Museum or whatever... I find it all really fascinating. I always wondered how those people got to be there, it seems most are just kids/descendants of parents who have made a fortune and a name for themselves, for example I hear the "Traina sisters" are very popular in NYC even though they haven't really accomplished anything, just their mother was the famous novelist Danielle Steele.

I guess in "really high society" you just have to be born into it, even your a millionaire that doesn't necessarily make you high society. I read that a lot of very rich people (multi millionaires), had difficulties being accepted by high society and nobility, one of them was a Vanderbilt.

Pornwolf

Oh, let me add one thing relevant to the thread subject.

The cool thing about webmasters is that the biz is so new that most people, old money included, aren't sure where to place you. That's why there wasn't an entry on the list. Thanks to Sergey & Larry, Jerry & David, Pierre O. and others you are automatically placed in a, "He could be richer than me" category that allows you to associate with any class of business people easily... depending on how you carry yourself.

Sometimes being hard to categorize is a good thing.

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bringer

average 75th percentile
who cares?

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rants

Yes, the internet has made a new "class" of people who are more difficult to place in a social class, but I have to say it's much more respectable to be the founder of google or yahoo than just someone who sells porn, selling porn has got to be at the bottom of the totem pole and most people probably feel that selling porn is not very admirable, while on the other hand, creating one of the biggest search engines in the world is worthy of a lot more praise, respect, and mainstream sucess.

Pornwolf

Those people you speak of are becoming less and less important every year. Once upon a time they kept control of the money. All the big companies were run by them and their offspring. One look at the fortune 500 will tell you that's no longer the case. The ones that are on there have nothing (real) to do with business and that's diminishing their influence. Personal money influences little, how much money you can put into other people's hands IS the influential lifeblood of those familes. Running the family company allows you to do that on a large scale. But, as I said, the kids aren't continuing the tradition.

I wouldn't be too amazed by them. The NY social circut has them but it's been infiltrated by everyone else. They still have some very uninteresting events together but places like The Hamptons and Martha's Vineyard have plenty of the "others" nowadays. Their kids hold very little clout... again, because the parents are holding less business clout than ever before.

The only place where the Society kids still matter is the UK. They still have a King and Queen over there so that tells ya how much they value that little network and way of life. Ever read Tatler? Pasty, inbred and unattractive... but still "fabulous" in their own way. It's an interesting thing to watch.

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rants

That's very good! Mine is lower, because I didn't go to university plus my net worth is not good... My income hasn't been high for long enough for me to have acquired enough property/investments for a high net worth, but in time it will come.. I am still young!

rants

The only Tatler article I ever read was the edition where Nicole Richie was on the cover, I didn't know Tatler was a magazine about the priviliged uper class in Britain though. I only read that article from a scan on-line I never really read the full magazine.

Yea, I also heard class is much more pronounced in England, and that you can tell someone's class from their accent and the area they were born in. And Monaco still has royalty too, like that Charlotte Casiraghi girl...

I like to imagine I am upper-middle class but I don't even think I am.... I'm probably middle... My family doesn't have "real wealth" nowadays, even though everyone is well-educated, we have a lot of professionals in the family like doctors and such but they aren't really wealthy though. My father used to be a diplomat for the embassy over 30 years ago, I wonder if that makes more more high class???

Peaches

Walk into a non-industry party and tell people you're an adult webmaster and you'll find out pretty fast what "social class" you are ;) Even better if you do it at a kid's birthday party

AmeliaG

I'd take Paul Fussell more seriously if he didn't spend hundreds of pages talking about how everyone is in a class, whether or not they like the concept, and then he says that of course writers are X-Outs or some such thing and thus exempt from the notion of class.

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rants

Bump

I also just realized that the fact that I am so into "class" and appearing "upper class" probably means that I'm middle-class Usually it's the middle-people who like to impress others and be flashy and buy things to impress, when the upper class are more subtle and sometimes even dress down.

Sadly the fact that I even think about "class" means that I'm lower class, people who are upper-class already know they have "arrived" and are therefore probably don't discuss crass subjects such as "class" and "money".

rants

This is only for people who are born into great wealth such as heiresses though. I think that people who made their fortunes in their own lifetime, even though they may be multi-millionaires are probably still obsessed with "class" especially if they came from humble/poor roots and feel like they don't quite fit in with "arrived gentry".

I don't think money alone buys class, although it helps it. I would like to be all around classy, not just money but also be cultured, refined, and more well-bred, even though I'm not really well-bred

I don't think yuppies are high-class either, their more like social-climbers but haven't really arrived yet. I wonder what it takes to really "arrive".

seeric

i am king of my world. thats the only one that counts.

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

Whats funny is...


We were all created equal.



What a mother fucking lie.

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rants

This is what we were taught in school, that everyone is equal and that America is a meritocracy, yet there are definitely are social classes in America, and I read that there is actually LESS social mobility in America than in Great Britain.

It's usually the middle-class who is uncomfortable about the idea of class because they are worried about where they stand.

Someone who makes a decent living might "think" they are middle-class, because they are certainly not poor or anything, but if they speak a certain way (loudly using slang) and didn't go to college, and don't do the right activities (for example not going to museums or being cultured about the world around them), they might be considered lower-class and they themself might not even realize it.

They might think "Well, I'm not on welfare, I have a house and I'm not starving, how can I be low-class", but it's their mannerisms and behaviour which makes them lower class.

It takes good breeding to install high-class mannerisms. I am afraid I'm not high-class either, I didn't really know how to properly place my fork until someone told me exactly WHERE and at WHAT ANGLE it has to be placed, this is something rich kids learn at boarding and etiquette school, somewhere I never went.

Also you have to know how to use forks/knives continental style or American style, plus at certain functions they use 5 forks... Most people are not taught which fork goes first...

stev0

do people actually worry about "social class"? what is this... high school?

rants

Well high school certainly has "social classes", such as the nerds, popular kids, smart asians, jocks, cheerleaders.. whatever...

Even though most Americans are not aware of it, there DOES exist a social class in America and it IS significant. Most people live and die in their social class, it is very hard to get out of it and move "up" in a sense. People don't even realize that they are in a social class, but they are...

This is Warnerian Social Class model :

* Upper-upper class. "Old money." People who have been born into and raised with wealth.
* Lower-upper class. "New money." Individuals who have become rich within their own lifetimes.
* Upper-middle class. High-salaried professionals (i.e., doctors, lawyers, corporate executives).
* True-middle class. Professional with salaries and educational attainment higher than those found among lower-middle class workers (i.e.. professors, managerial office workers, architects)
* Lower-middle class. Lower-paid professionals, but not manual laborers (i.e., police officers, non-management office workers, small business owners).
* Upper-lower class. Blue-collar workers and manual labourers. Also known as the "working class."
* Lower-lower class. The homeless and permanently unemployed, as well as the "working poor."


This is Fussell's model :

Fussell's model classifies Americans according to the following classes:

1. Top out-of-sight: the super-rich, heirs to huge fortunes
2. Upper Class: rich celebrities and people who can afford full-time domestic staff
3. Upper-Middle Class: self-made well-educated professionals
4. Middle Class: office workers
5. High Prole: skilled blue-collar workers
6. Mid Prole: workers in factories and the service industry
7. Low Prole: manual laborers
8. Destitute: the homeless
9. Bottom out-of-sight: those incarcerated in prisons and institutions

SilentKnight

Exactly my thoughts.

Social class is bullshit.

rants

I would have to disgree since social class is a subject that is studied in sociology in many universities all across the country.

Most people think that it is bullshit because they would like to believe that everyone is created equal and it seems unfair that in today's world in America that their could be "Classes" or people "not as good" as another group. The fact that the matter of class is not even discussed often makes it more elusive and most people are not even aware or don't want to really know what class they are in.

People in the upper-crust tend to inter-marry and therefore keep the "power" and "money" within their circles, they are not accepting of "new money".

It has been proven that the more high-class you are, you get better medical treatment and are more likely to survive. I read an article about this in the NY Times.

People of high class intermingle with other high class people. Their kids go to Exeter or whatever those boarding schools are called. That's the ticket into Ivy League, where they mingle with kids of politicans and senators. And make connections and network. It is very hard for someone from the lower classes to achive this, although it is possible, old money would most likely not "fully accept" them as they would their own.

2HousePlague

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polish_aristocrat

great thread, I spent almost half an hour reading it

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rants

Aren't you an aristocrat and blue-blooded? I read that you were. Are blue-blooded aristocrats different from us normal folks? Were you taught which fork to use first when their were a bunch of them? Do you wear an expensive watch? Someone told me that all upper-crust men have to wear an expensive watch , it's the same thing as women who buy designer purses as status symbols...

Do you call it a "formal dinner jacket" instead of a tuxedo?

I always was curious about blue blooded aristocrats..

Do you know Charlotte Casiraghi of Monaco and the Swedish Royals? What about Princess Chantal of Greece?