Designers and those that buy from them.

[After Shock Media]

When will the design portion of this industry evolve?
Currently everything is based on showing some of your past work that displays no other signs of success other than it looks pretty, after that all things being equal pretty wise the only selling point is price.
Then of course it is just a matter of how the money works, half up front; all up front; pay only when finished, whatever.

Then in nearly every other industry that deals in advertising design (thats basicly what designers are and do), ad firms (designers) compete for jobs. They place bids, have mock ups or concepts ready to present before any given one is hired. They come ready with track records, demographical targets, pitches as to why this given element will target the group the buyer wants and so on.

I ask will we ever reach this day or are we forever doomed with buy now test latter and if it sucks move on?

[enter »]

Well, first off, ad firms that compete and bid on jobs or do presentations are doing so in hopes to gain a 6 or 7 figure contract. It's not worth a designers time to write up a proposal for a $1,000 gig. Especially since if they're any good, there's another job waiting for them anyway.

As for your points about fancy design and price being the only criteria.. that's true of most. A lot of people just care about price and they ultimately pay more in the long run when they realize the low end design they bought sucks and need to pay for another one. That's why I don't see outsourcers as a threat. Most are so bad that anyone who uses them eventually realizes they need a real designer.

I've actually done hosted galleries for a lot of programs who were referred to me by other programs who had success with my designs. My portfolio is just there as a sample. I think designers who actually know this business and have proved it will always have work and the rest will be forced to scour gfy for any shitty job they can find.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by enter »

Well, first off, ad firms that compete and bid on jobs or do presentations are doing so in hopes to gain a 6 or 7 figure contract. It's not worth a designers time to write up a proposal for a $1,000 gig. Especially since if they're any good, there's another job waiting for them anyway.

As for your points about fancy design and price being the only criteria.. that's true of most. A lot of people just care about price and they ultimately pay more in the long run when they realize the low end design they bought sucks and need to pay for another one. That's why I don't see outsourcers as a threat. Most are so bad that anyone who uses them eventually realizes they need a real designer.

I've actually done hosted galleries for a lot of programs who were referred to me by other programs who had success with my designs. My portfolio is just there as a sample. I think designers who actually know this business and have proved it will always have work and the rest will be forced to scour gfy for any shitty job they can find.

Just a point of topic of course.

Though if various design companies are charging say 500.00 (just an easy number folks) for a simple tour. Why would it be so outlandish for them to show a mock up base idea (1 page) of what they have in mind. That would typically only run about a fifth of the design cost typically (retail) and as many know a lot of buyers are repeate buyers once they find someone that works well. Just a thought of course or a point to talk about. I have after all had 10.00 banner jobs turn into 1000.00 design jobs before.

As you did say word of mouth does work wonders as well. Though that also can be a double edged sword. Sometimes buyers do not wish to disclose who made the promo material or tour, or how well that designers stuff is doing out of fear that the competition may also use them.

I just find it odd that once the money and the psd or image files change hands the deal is done, it is now sink or swim for the buyer. Though yes if the stuff works well the designer will get rehired often enough which is a plus, but it makes the buyer take all of the real risk.

[The Truth Hurts]

I wouldn't trust many people in this biz with a mockup or concept before some cash was disbursed.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by The Truth Hurts

I wouldn't trust many people in this biz with a mockup or concept before some cash was disbursed.

Your a designer right?

[The Truth Hurts]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

I just find it odd that once the money and the psd or image files change hands the deal is done, it is now sink or swim for the buyer.

I think most of the more well known and established designers are more than willing to work on tweaking their work if something isn't working out.

Then again, that's something that can be easily taken advantage of.

[enter »]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

Just a point of topic of course.

Though if various design companies are charging say 500.00 (just an easy number folks) for a simple tour. Why would it be so outlandish for them to show a mock up base idea (1 page) of what they have in mind. That would typically only run about a fifth of the design cost typically (retail) and as many know a lot of buyers are repeate buyers once they find someone that works well. Just a thought of course or a point to talk about. I have after all had 10.00 banner jobs turn into 1000.00 design jobs before.

valid points, but the truth is, a decent designer doesn't need to do that. I've turned down jobs because someone wanted sample galleries first. I would just rather spend my time on a sure thing. If I was short on work, I would probably take the time to do some samples.

Originally Posted by The Truth Hurts

I think most of the more well known and established designers are more than willing to work on tweaking their work if something isn't working out.

Then again, that's something that can be easily taken advantage of.

True and VERY true.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by The Truth Hurts

I think most of the more well known and established designers are more than willing to work on tweaking their work if something isn't working out.

Then again, that's something that can be easily taken advantage of.

I understand that.

I also understand nobody likes hand holding and getting constant status updates showing previews during each step. What happens when someone starts the project and it seems both have same basic idea, or at least they think they do since they talked about it using text. Yet when the designer is basicly done and the buyer sees the project it somehow went wrong somewhere?
Should the designer eat it and revise it more to how the buyer percieved, or should the buyer eat it and hope they can describe it better next time and so on?

[psili]

I fucking love this thread.

Just so I can say, once again:

Designers are useless, premadonna pussies working behind their beloved Apple computers wasting their time and the time of those who employ them so they can later say after a project:

1. project doesn't work: Designer says "It was a bad project."
2. project works: Designer says "It's all because of me."

[After Shock Media]

By the way sorry about all of this, I know I should not be trying to get my fill of an actual business topic here. I just felt like it today and figured what the fuck.

We will return to your regularly scheaduled spam and hit it threads shortly.

[Renny]

good smart designers don't do design work for a living forever..
They make their own sites and programs..
Why help other people make way more $ off your shit than what you charge when you can do it for yourself.

[$tandaman]

"The Truth Hurts" summed it up pretty well imo.
A mockup of 1 page is much more then 20% of website work. It's 80-90% of creative work in general for an average adult site.

Designers in this industry do not work for budgets anywhere close to the mainstream, and that's exactly the reason you do not see the abovementioned conditions be met here.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by $tandaman

"The Truth Hurts" summed it up pretty well imo.
A mockup of 1 page is much more then 20% of website work. It's 80-90% of creative work in general for an average adult site.

Designers in this industry do not work for budgets anywhere close to the mainstream, and that's exactly the reason you do not see the abovementioned conditions be met here.

Then please move on to my follow up questions.

[Renny]

Designers in this industry do not work for budgets anywhere close to the mainstream

I don't see where all the work is in mainstream. Seems like there would be loads more in adult.

[$tandaman]

Originally Posted by Renny

I don't see where all the work is in mainstream. Seems like there would be loads more in adult.

He has been talking about ad agencies. Everything you see around you every single day is what those agencies produce, and get paid for those 6-7 figure sums.
Such as logotypes, slogans, tv advertisements, magazines advertisements, promo events, ad boards.. etc.. you see these things every single day of your life, you just don't realize it.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by $tandaman

He has been talking about ad agencies. Everything you see around you every single day is what those agencies produce, and get paid for those 6-7 figure sums.
Such as logotypes, slogans, tv advertisements, magazines advertisements, promo events, ad boards.. etc.. you see these things every single day of your life, you just don't realize it.

That is part of it. I am talking about a little more than that as well though.

[$tandaman]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

Then please move on to my follow up questions.

The answer is still the same. Budget.

You pay 100,000 for design of a paysite that will convert, i'll work with you for 6 months, making as many changes as needed, we'll get focus groups together, we'll do testings, we'll go back and make changes...
What do you expect?
Pay a few hundred, maximum a few grand, and receive 100,000 worth of service? c'mon man.. In my opinon, and maybe someone can tell you otherwise, that's the only reason.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by $tandaman

The answer is still the same. Budget.

You pay 100,000 for design of a paysite that will convert, i'll work with you for 6 months, making as many changes as needed, we'll get focus groups together, we'll do testings, we'll go back and make changes...
What do you expect?
Pay a few hundred, maximum a few grand, and receive 100,000 worth of service? c'mon man.. In my opinon, and maybe someone can tell you otherwise, that's the only reason.

So in essense a design in adult is only required to make purty images and there should be yet another niched b2b style company that provides layout and copy?

[travs]

Originally Posted by Renny

good smart designers don't do design work for a living forever..
They make their own sites and programs..
Why help other people make way more $ off your shit than what you charge when you can do it for yourself.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by travs

Ok clap all you wish.

Though some people do design and will pretty much design forever. Not everyone has dreams of their own sites and programs. Then honestly do you know how many sites fail in comparison to how many succeed? Designers still get the work neverless though.

Some people are happy with what they do. Then some people also can do more than just one thing.

[$tandaman]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

So in essense a design in adult is only required to make purty images and there should be yet another niched b2b style company that provides layout and copy?

Layout not necessary, copy - yes. Copywriting is not part of design service. Designer lays out the information given, in an easy to understand, sellable manner, although many designers in adult industry are just people who know photoshop, they have no marketing or advertising background or experience, so therefore they do NOT know how to make a site sell.

Prettier sites sell better, it's been proven by research, but of course that's not always a case, as it depends on what you are selling, and the approach you take.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by $tandaman

Layout not necessary, copy - yes. Copywriting is not part of design service. Designer lays out the information given, in an easy to understand, sellable manner, although many designers in adult industry are just people who know photoshop, they have no marketing or advertising background or experience, so therefore they do NOT know how to make a site sell.

Then if a designer has marketing and or advertising experience should they not also use this as a selling point besides price and looks?
Do designers often charge more and or should they if they provide copy? I ask because many seem to think part of design is coming up with and making the copy.

Originally Posted by $tandaman

Prettier sites sell better, it's been proven by research, but of course that's not always a case, as it depends on what you are selling, and the approach you take.

I think that portion is debatable but maybe in another topic. And even then which would be more important layout or looks?

[Hammer]

In mainstream no designer is held accountable for whether or not a magazine ad produces results. Maybe the company's product sucks and no one wants to buy it. That's not the designer's fault. So why is it that an adult site designer should be held accountable for how well some guy's big tits site -- that is just one of thousands -- will convert?

[jonesy]

im waiting for alien to weigh in on this.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by The Hammer

In mainstream no designer is held accountable for whether or not a magazine ad produces results. Maybe the company's product sucks and no one wants to buy it. That's not the designer's fault. So why is it that an adult site designer should be held accountable for how well some guy's big tits site -- that is just one of thousands -- will convert?

Wasnt asking about accountability for the end product after the buyer agrees that is what they want. Because you are right some things are just shit and will sell worse than shit.

[$5 submissions]

I sense a HUGE OPPORTUNITY in the core of your question, though.

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

When will the design portion of this industry evolve?
Currently everything is based on showing some of your past work that displays no other signs of success other than it looks pretty, after that all things being equal pretty wise the only selling point is price.
Then of course it is just a matter of how the money works, half up front; all up front; pay only when finished, whatever.

Then in nearly every other industry that deals in advertising design (thats basicly what designers are and do), ad firms (designers) compete for jobs. They place bids, have mock ups or concepts ready to present before any given one is hired. They come ready with track records, demographical targets, pitches as to why this given element will target the group the buyer wants and so on.

I ask will we ever reach this day or are we forever doomed with buy now test latter and if it sucks move on?

[$tandaman]

Originally Posted by The Hammer

In mainstream no designer is held accountable for whether or not a magazine ad produces results. Maybe the company's product sucks and no one wants to buy it. That's not the designer's fault. So why is it that an adult site designer should be held accountable for how well some guy's big tits site -- that is just one of thousands -- will convert?

particular designer, no, but an ad agency yes. big companies don't use freelancers, they use agencies, and when agencies do not perform, they fire them. and agencies do provide work free, before the contract is secured like was mentioned above.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by $5 submissions

Very good question, After Shock. You hit the nail on the head. I sense a HUGE OPPORTUNITY in the core of your question, though.

Great I am glad to see some are seeing a bit more into what I am talking about or trying to get talked about. (Yes reading into things and between the lines helps)

[$5 submissions]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

Great I am glad to see some are seeing a bit more into what I am talking about or trying to get talked about. (Yes reading into things and between the lines helps)

I adressed the same underlying issues a while back: http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showthread.php?t=489988

There are some stumbling blocks but I don't think they are insourmountable.