Monsieur

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SinisterStudios

$1500 for a days worth of shooting is not alot of money, but it really depends on what kind of content is being shot. If your shooting chromes or super high rez magazine worthy photos and the video to match its a good price.

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Mutt

those Max Candy prices are from his imagination not reality - he gets paid what every other shooter gets for your average exclusive solo girl set - 120-150 bucks per set. he does shoot for ATK's Premium site and that does pay more but more is expected quality wise for that work.

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Paul Markham

When we first came here we were paying the girls $300, but with your marvelous President and his astoundong management of the US$ we are now paying the $450, add the agents comm. and you get to $500. The girls are not getting anymore, just the dollar in the toilet.

This obviously effects us when we are budgetting one off jobs, with non exclusive sales keep coming and the revenue has grown to replace the falling dollar.

DukeSkywalker I know it's tough using these Eastern European skags, but where else can I get girls to work for a day for a beer and sandwich, then give me a BJ before they go home?

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Paul Markham

They get my assistants shooting, good but not as good as Eva or I. We are worth slightly more than $500 a day. LOL

Seriously if the client wants his house painted for $500 that's what he will get. We have a client who pays $1500 for a lesbian set and video, but that is shot by Eva or myself and his site and conversion rates are at the top of the business.

I know better than most the conversions on poor, average and good content. If you convert 1-1000 on poor, expect to convert 1-500 on good. The problem is knowing what is good, getting it in a regular supply and paying for it.

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Paul Markham

I know he works cheaper. He got some jobs we quoted on and I know what I quoted and he had to go low to get them. Max is a great guy and shoots good stuff that is worth more.

I'm starting to think is a set at $150 better off with brokers. If Ounique, Photorama, Zappu and a few more can't sell it ten times in a couple of months the set is serious shite.

We are content producers, it's in our interest to see sets sold to saturation point. Trust me sets we shoot make a bit more than $150 over their life time.

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AaronM

I don't think so, Tim.



Charly, you and I have had this discussion a few times. Each time you have had a firm stance that you can make more by shooting non-exclusive. Why the consideration of changing that now?

And for the record......I charge at least $1,500 a day when I shoot exclusive solo content and I have the payment records to back that up. At that rate I am booked solid and well in advance for at least the next 6 months. So much in fact that I have had to subcontract 2 other shooters to keep up with client demands.

I'll be more than happy to show you the numbers first hand next week so you can see them in black and white then make the decision if it is worth it to you or not.

AaronM

From a "newbie perspective"...You have no business starting up a paysite in the first place. That's newbie mistake number 1.

seven

Well, bottomline is that some people are happy with a bit less profit than you are and many of us try to find those who are happy with that little less profit.

Anyways Charly, how long do you keep your non-exclsuive sets regular priced before moving them to bargain basement?

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AaronM

Those number are dead nuts on.

They are EXACTLY in line with what I charge.

seven

i second that.

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AaronM

Every other shooter gets that huh?

UH.....OK.

I'm not going to post my contracts or exclusive numbers here but let's just say that I disagree with you.

Yes, there are companies who only wish to pay 120-150 per set.....BUT.....Not all companies.

There are only 2 companies that I have considered shooting at those prices for and at this point, I have not shot a single set for either of them even though I have girls which the companies have already approved. Now, if I happen to have an opening in my schedule and I happen to have a model around who wants a little work for less pay...THEN, and only then will I consider these lower rates. It's all about timing, I guess....and so far the timing has not presented an opening for me to justify doing it.

Just 3 years ago I was selling exclusive solo sets for $400 per set with 70 to 100 pics per set and my quality was nowhere near what it is today. Man, I miss the days of those prices. Now that every Tom, Dick, and Harry will shoot for less, we have all had to drop our prices. That doesn't mean that I need to drop them even lower to stay in business.

Paul Markham

I do make a LOT more than $150 a set or video from the content stores, everyone says non exclusive is saturated, 10 sales would hardly saturate a set and we are pretty good shooters so sell 10 times easily.

But we have another problem.

Because of extra staff we've recruited for video editing and will employ soon as content manager, I have two girls sitting in the office doing very little work. We shoot 2-3 days for ourselves and the couple of custom clients we do have, Eva and I shoot for them, and just shooting more content will not resort to more sales.

The top content goes int PMCS, the lesser stuff goes into BBCS both sites get enough new content to keep sales rolling. Putting up more sets will not mean more $$$. We will also be brokering for a UK DVD distributor so sales are at the top.

So shooting exclusive was an option, I can put the two girls into the studio full time, they have both had their work published in magazines so not crap shooters, and leave them to it.

$1500 a day is reasonable money for an easy days solo girl shoot. Problem is some think that's a lot. Lensmans offer of $1,000 a day is a joke and anyone working for that price is a fool or not very good. Respect to him and good luck if he gets it done at that price but, the shooter could earn a lot more brokering the sets or he is a very bad shooter.

So maybe I should of started a thread asking what do I get these two girls to do, but that would of invited the idiots in.

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Paul Markham

No body is happy with less profit everyone wants more. It's just some with less ability have to settle for less profit. Don't try to kid us a shooter is selling it for $150 when he could get $300 because he's happy with earning less.

Most of the time we can tell if a set will make the grade in PMCS so there is no need to move it over. The few that do not make the grade we move after 3 months and under 4 sales. Can't remember the last time I did that though.

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Paul Markham

Don't know about you but I do know about us. We shot for ATK exclusive for their Hairy Girl site. They paid $1500 for 10 sets, when the dollar plummetted we dropped them. we only shot 2-3 days.

They refused to pay more even though we had hairy girls and they needed them. We shot them for others and ourselves and made a lot more money. It was also Eva and I shooting the content.

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Kyo

I have no intention of starting with a paysite, but doing paysite(s) is the end-result goal of the current plan.

Thank you for your informative input and pardon me for trying to learn a bit more about it all. And to think you were one of the guys I had some respect for here.

Now, please, go fuck yourself.

seven

so you get all offended by what he said to you huh?

well, see if it's your "end-result goal" maybe you should put off your "learn a bit more about it all" til the end. Don't think Aaronm has the time to write a tutorial on "how a newbie could reach his end-result goal". There are lot more things for newbies to learn a bit more about than end-result paysite so may wanna try to spend your time learning those first. And once you do that in a few years read your ever so genius post again and will very well be able to see why you were annoying others here with:

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Paul Markham

You were looking for respect?

That's next door, this is abuse.

Would you like a five minute session or the full ten?

Python fans will see the joke.

You will learn a lot here and my reply told you reams, but also expect a tough crowd to please.

This is the Internet version of the Collosium, Christians and Lions.

Forgive my spelling please.

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Istrijan

You're based in Slovakia. Still you ask $ as if you were based in the US. Huge differenses in cost and girls. If you can do $1500+ why not just do it, or keep doing non-exclusive as that's even better, you claim.

You keep on saying you're so good and blah blah blah.... everyone charging less is bad.... well for you info there are some damn good photographers doing way less than you can even imaging and have damn nice models. (And those photographers still make enough money to live a decent life.) And best of all, the members seem to agree. And THAT is what is of importance, nothing else.

You seem to be a greedy person if you ask me. Don't take it personal, but you keep coming back to this stuff every few months and claiming all the same every time.

seven

well, look at it this way: I'd be happier too if my members paid $300/month instead of $30/mon. Well I could ask for atleast $100/mon cos to myself my shit is well worth $100/mon and maybe I could even get few members agreeing to pay $100/mon but majority surfers wouldn't wanna signup and I'd be in dipshit paying my bills. Same way if a shooter takes $150 he'll probably makeup for it well in volume of orders he will get. So I'm not kidding when i say he's happy earning less.. less from me but not from his total targetted income which also doesn't make him less able either.

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imageman

$1500 for 4 sets and a short video is very reasonable. Its possible to shoot 20 sets a day and video, i know i've done it, but you end up with duplicate images because either you or the model did'nt move around fast enough.
I guess what webmasters don't fully realize is what's involved in shooting models professionally.

When you hire cheap models you can get ones that are new or inexperienced or not really interested in modeling but just need rent money, shooting this type of model is usually a pain in the ass and the results less than perfect. If a model is disinterested it shows in the images and in the effort she puts into the videos.


Makeup artists if used can cost $200. A good reliable and energetic model from LA will cost at least $500 plus agents commission of $50 to $100 and that's just for Solo/ pink/toys.
A well know model can demand and get anything from $900 to ##### for hard-core scenes and then you have to pay the guy to do the pop shot again adding anything from $200 to #####
Add in the studio costs editing ( if required ) and some basic image sharpening and color correction and that $1500.00 is sounding very cheap to me.

The most important aspect of exclusive content is it can be custom shot to the webmasters requirements. The webmaster can own something no other site has. It can be guys fucking car exhausts to girls making love to a vacuum cleaner, whatever it is the webmaster is in complete control of his content, the model choice, the makeup and even the location.
All this for just $1500.00 is a steal IMHO.

Paul Markham

I'm based in Czech so wrong from the start.

The price of production has little to nothing to do with the price of the sale, it's the products value that determines the selling price. I do say we are good, because we are. As for those charging less maybe you would like to show them to me because I would love to see what you think is good.

Greedy or just want to make as much money as possible from a days work? Do you stop taking money from members or sponsors when you hit a certain level?

so show me the guys who can shoot good content for $1,000 a day. Shooting 8 pieces of content that would be $125 a piece, they are robbing themselves they would make more money brokering the content.

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Paul Markham

Very good point, lower the price and raise the volume. the problem with the formula that works for a paysite is it does not work for those shooting content. 100 extra surfers produce $3,000 in Turn Over less processing and affiliates payments the extra cost is BW. So a lot of extra profit.

With shooting at $1,000 a day 50% goes straight to the model and possibly agent. Then there are lots of other costs. Cameras, lights, clothing, props, studio or locations, film tapes, DVD discs, postage. All these costs have to be met for a days shoot. Cameras and lights need servicing yearly or replacing, props and clothing need replacing, studios need decorating. Yes the studio and staff are paid for so no need to add them on

These are costs that are paid out on every days shoot. The only way to shoot for less is to pay the model a lot less and we can't do that here.

As I said show me the guys who shoot custom for $1,000 a day. I might want to talk to them about brokering or even buying in their work to resell.

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basschick

4 short shoots including pics AND video for $1500, that's a great price - ESPECIALLY for the lighting and pretty girls paul's content usually has.

or he could do 6 shorter rushed shoots, for your basic amateur site. that seems like a good deal to me. sure, there are people who shoot it cheaper, but usually their lighting or girls leaves something to be desired...

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AaronM

LOL...You respected me? You don't even know me. And now here you are telling me to GFY because I made a GENERAL comment about the biggest newbie mistake that is constantly made?

Pull your head out of your ass, son. You are not the only newbie on this block.

Kyo

I already paid for the full ten!

Indeed, it's why I'm here...in amongst the drama and would-you-hit-it threads, there's a few gems. This thread isn't bad itself. As for pleasing the crowds, well, I knew that was a lost cause before I ever made my first post. The only people here I'll be concerned with pleasing are the ones I do business with. There's a few here that give me hope that good old honest business is possible in this industry.

AaronM

Good business is very possible to do in this industry. You may want to try to not alienate yourself by taking offence and then attacking when people offer advice that you don't wish to hear.

I didn't insult you, I made a general comment. And look how you reacted. Yeah, I can see the people lining up to do business with you now.

Kyo

No, never met you. Was (am?) looking forward to it, though. The respect of which I spoke was due to things like your Ambush Interview and some other posts here.

And no, not saying GFY because of a general comment about a big mistake, I said it because it appeared you were saying "you know nothing so don't even try". I don't expect anyone to spend their time educating me, but spending time telling someone they're making a big mistake without pointing out what that mistake is seems rather pointless.

If the mistake you're referring to is that of a green newbie going straight to opening a paysite, I'm sure I concur. Hence my attempts to learn what I can before starting. And also why I peppered my post with the words "newbie perspective"...meaning I know full well that I'm not speaking with any authority and may well be making mistakes.

Paul Markham

You know the power of good content, the product we all ultimately sell. You have the ability to spot it, know how to utilise it and recognise it as an investment.

However there are people with another business model. They are getting their "100K" hits a day and converting 1-1,000 and think the best way to inprove on that is more hits. So they spend more time, money and effort in getting more affiliates with more free gifts, banners and lures. Which works but costs money. (The figures are to illustrate a point)

What some others do is look at the conversion ratio of 1-1,000 and turn that into 1-500. They then double their membership, but more importantly they double the money their affiliates earn and need to spend less $$$ on getting them.

Then there are the guys that adopt method 1 and 2 and now we are talking about the giants of the industry.

When someone criticises my wanting more money for my work he had best not have a link in his signature that sends me to a site that has saturated sets in the tour and low quality sets as well. This guy needs to think hard about method two, assuming he has the money to invest.

Yes you have to sift the advice from the abuse. But listen to Aaron and ignore his caustic tongue. He's a survivor in an industry with a very high casualty rate. The mistake in your posts was simple. There is absolutely no need for 100% exclusive content, unless you can't buy it good and new, to start a paysite, it's expensive and exclusive is not what provides the sign ups. Unseen and good content is what does it. 50/50 is a better ratio.

Plus today you should not even dream about starting up a paysite unless you can compete with 10% of your competition, look around at what's available in the niche and make the calculations. I would say in todays business the first thing you need is a lot of money to start a proper paysite. $20,000 is not a lot of money.

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AaronM

I'm sorry, I thought I made it abundantly clear that a newbie opening a paysite was a common and huge mistake. WTF more do I need to educate people on than that?

Now, about this Ambush Interview that contributed to earning me your respect......Kindly link me to it because as far as I can recall, I've never done an Ambush Interview....And I'd love to read whatever it is that I had to say.

Thank you.

Kyo

OMG. Erm. Umm. *mutter* Well, looks like I've been owned on this one.

I coulda swore I read an interview with you somewhere, assumed it was one of the Ambush ones. Maybe not, perchance you are mentioned by others in their interviews. Or maybe I read a post or two of yours when I was reading all the other interviews. Dunno. Doesn't matter, all I can say is that it stuck in my mind that you'd been around for a while, established, experienced, and were apparently known for honest dealings. Was I far off the mark? I know that you were on the list of people I thought it'd be cool to meet when I got further in and started doing the industry show thing.

Just your response to my post caught me off-guard; I inferred it to be an insult...my original post was just me trying to look at things the way I currently understood them and to provide some insight to charly regarding a newbie's reaction to the prices he was asking about. And yeah, I probably replied a bit in haste with the wrong tone (based on reading a lot of GFY lately, but that's no excuse)...but it really did seem to me that you were just saying that since I didn't know anything about the biz that I should stay out of the biz. If that wasn't your intention, I apologize for my reaction.

AaronM

No, that wasn't my intention. My attitude is pretty much "do it right or get the fuck out." If you intend to do it right then more power to you. The average newbie doesn't do much right.

As for your apology.....Consider it accepted.

Thank you.

Kyo

Yes, I see the point about not needing 100% exclusive, but as I look around, many sites are beginning to update more than once per week. Although I didn't mention it, there was the concept in the back of my mind that one could use non-exclusive to fill in, i.e. doing 2 updates per week, while still being able to market to affiliates and surfers that exclusive content being added at least once per week. Doing more than 1x update/week fits in with that "being able to compete with the competition" bit you mentioned.

And yeah, I don't think $20k is a lot of money (in relation to starting a business); my original post came from the concern of not being able to get enough return on the $$ to justify buying (most of) one's content at those prices. But standard supply-and-demand comes into play....if that's what quality content costs, that's what it costs.

Thanks for entertaining my queries, and I apologize for the mini-hijack that happened when I misunderstood AaronM's post.

Kyo

If it appears that I can't do it right, I'll pull the plug on the whole plan. That concept has served me well so far in life, I doubt it'll change.

So....any chance of you doing an Ambush Interview? :D

AaronM

Sleazy has asked me to do it a few times....I'm just too busy right now but I'm sure I will do one some day.

Paul Markham

The problem is we are all talking about content as if it's bags of potatoes, but even those have a different pricing according to quality.

But we can supply sets like this shot by one of my assistants

Or brand new girls like this.





Excuse the poor image I shot it on my little digital camera and I know it's crap.

And yes we can still shoot quick and simple.

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Paul Markham

What Sleazy was asking you to do had nothing to do with an Interview. LOL

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Paul Markham

And look what just walked into the studio for a casting.







She does everything, including boy girl anal.

So I'm taking orders now on her. Don't insult me by offering $150 a set.

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SleazyDream

you have been asked though

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Doctor Dre

For solo girl... a whole day ... I think it's very acceptable ... you can shoot many sets in a single day.

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AaronM

Yep...A few times. All in good time, my friend.

See you Wednesday.

Paul Markham

depends on the level of quaility, style and ther actual model.

But producing porn is not about numbers, there are shooters who boast they can shoot a set in 20 minutes. But will it sell, convert and retain as well as a set that was shot in 40 minutes or even an hour?

If you look upon it purely as a numbers game dont be surprised if the people you sell to are not the top quality and don't be surprised if it's harder to sell to them.

We are not in the vegetable business, don't think of porn as sacks of carrots. Then even those are sold by quality. There are sites who do think of it as a numbers game and some do well, but the new Adult Net is looking at a different model. As I said you can convert 1/1000 and throw more traffic or you could look at getting one of the 999 non buyers to buy instead of leaving your site.

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Paul Markham

There is a thread on this board about a custom shooter and his constant fuck ups, it has dragged in another shooter. They are not unique, one of the constant themes here are the fuck ups of custom shooters.

When you screw your supplier into the ground on price you are left with a supplier working on a tight margin, limited resources and not able to invest. He is also more likely to screw up, let you down and not break his balls to put things right and keep your custom.

I know what it costs to shoot porn, Eva is a trained book keeper and tells me reguarly. The cost of cameras, lights, bulbs and tubes for the lights, accessories for the equipment, getting the equipment serviced and maintained. Then computer equipment, programs, Internet connection, hosting, and building a site. Then studio or locations, transport to the location, props, furniture, vibrators and batteries do not last for ever. You do not want an exclusive set of a girl shot to saturation point on a sofa in 100 sets and underwear in more. Don't expect the model to turn up with everything, she's there because she broke.

Then there is the model herself, she needs to be paid pretty well so she's happy, often you need to find her via an agent, if not you need to advertise. They don't just walk in off the street.

Then there are little things like insurance, accountants and book keeping.

Now if you scrimp on any of the above you end up with a product that is less likely to hit your traffic with a product they will pass over. Cut down on the quality of what you deliver your client and you raise the level of refusals, what good is content at $200 a set or video if it converts half as well as content at $400 a set or video?

I have repeatedly asked for the names of the mystery suppliers who do this marvelous work at cut prices, yet to see an answer.

The business is changing by the day, the bar is being lifted every time a surfer joins a site. You need to think a lot harder about what you deliver to your surferm because if you do not your competitor will.

Beside the surfer the biggest reason to raise your bar is the affiliate. The newbie is not going to really send a lot of traffic and if it does not convert he will soon give up. The experienced affiliate knows what's good and what's bad. He won't even join a site with crap content.

So spend on converting and retaining members and affiliates or spend $3,000 a month on a banner on GFY?

This is without the trouble some are going through today trying to get content out of a supplier who is obviously working on the minimum resources.

As for us, I've picked up two clients who do want us to shoot for them and at more than $1000 over models fees a day. Maybe they are thinking "If I have his stuff exclusive my competitor does not"

We're not the best in the business, but pretty close to it on the teens side.

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Paul Markham

I forgot another cost on every shoot. Tapes, Discs, packing and postage. So add another $50 to a days work. That should cover the basics.

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seven

See you don't know what the real deals are that go on behind, you are simply ASSUMING the deals. See someone may not book a whole day's shoot but book a tiny fraction of the days shoot. Someone may not worry to get magazine quality but quality just good for him in his niche (trust me not everybody wants the best quality, some may actually require the shoots to be amateur/unprofessional). Some can give up the print rights, dvd rights to the shooter or make those commission based etc. etc. Shooter can also reserve time from the day's shoot for semi-exclusives and non-exclusives in different niches. Now, shooter can make many such deals and end up with much more than >$1500 per shoot yet make his clients happy cos clients don't always care what the shooter made in total as long as they got to pay a reasonable amount for their needs & budgets.

I used to shoot a little bit for myself and a friend of mine some time ago so i'm well aware of the costs that go in there then again it's a bit different mindset there cos when you shoot for your own sites you don't think much about the behind the scenes costs cos you'd be otherwise paying many of those bills anyways (cost of business), not to mention you don't pay the same rate for every model, they can also be referred/non-referred so cost can be a bit different per shoot (again cost of business). But prob is shooting is a fulltime job by itself and so is webmastering. You gotta pick one or the other.

I agree $1500 is not a bad price for a day's shoot without any background deals but the only prob is that in my very personal opinion, if I want czech content it'd be to save some money and not to pay the same amount i'd pay for u.s. shoots at the same token, other people's opinion can be different than mine ofcourse

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Paul Markham

The more sets you shoot the less the quality. After about 4 sets+videos the shooter and the model are fucked and going through the motions.

So a site owner has to balance quality with quantity.

The bottom line with all these prices is what some will pay and some will sell for. We can get $1,000 a day plus models costs for 100% exclusive, some cannot.

But the other consideration is what the content is worth, if we put a days work on the site it's worth a lot more than $1,500. But we are at capacity on the content store, 10 new sets or videos released a week. we are at capacity for magazines, 120 a year. So will do exclusive.

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Paul Markham

I hear what you're saying Seven and we do sometimes just shoot a one off set or video for a client and charge accordingly. Often a client will want a set of a girl in his T-Shirt or a particular scene.

As for selling off other rights this might be possible, but most magazines now want non exclusive Internet rights and the level of quality needed to sell to magazines does not come form a shooter and model doing 4-5 scenes a day. Magazines pay $1,000 for a set non exclusive, they take what is right not cheap. But if I could find a market for semi exclusive that allowed us the to retain some of the rights I would be very interested.

As for the cost of models and people not wanting Czech girls, the biggest problem we have is the US crews here paying girls $1,000 a day or even a scene. So it seems many do want these girls.

The best girls will simply not rush out to work for less and they don't need to because many realise the cost of content is the last thing the consumer is thinking while he has his dick in his hand.

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DeanCapture

This has been my experience as well. I try to shoot 6 sets of pics and an hour of video for most of my clients but sometimes I can't achieve that and still keep the quality up there. Of course, I could shoot less quality and more sets of pics but luckily for me.....that's not what my clients are looking for

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ServerGenius

what makes you think u.s. models are superior? Because they have plastic tits
or an american flag tattood on their ass? Half the world is shooting in (eastern)
europe......what do you think that does to the rates of models? Apart from that
I hate ignorant people that seem to think that just because it's out of the U.S.
people will work for a dollar a day.

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MikeSmoke

This is something I don't understand why more shooters don't do - every once in a while over the years, I've found a provider who was happy to do extra scenes with girls he already had in for the day - and it worked out great for both sides. Since I'm in a specific niche and not competitive with whoever else they're shooting for, they can use the same outfit, props, whatever - for very little extra time spent, they throw the girl a little extra money, make more toward their cost of the shoot, and everyone comes out happy. I guess most shooters don't feel the need to do that, though, if everyone's paying $1500+ for a day's shooting. Pity.

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