When you stop being profitable, some sponsors turn off sales for you - GoFuckYourself.com

AkiraSS · 03-05-2005, 10:50 AM

We sent lots of traffic to various sponsors and I've noticed something with the emerging sponsors that offer free trials. We were sending constantly around 1000-2000 hits per day averaging at 10 sales per day and converting around 1:160 overall on unique hits. It was solid for 9 months.

Then the sponsor changed their stats system to one of the new, emerging, blah blah stat systems by one of the annoying board people. Since the changed, our sales stopped. I won't go into our traffic, it's the same traffic. We ofcourse contacted the owner of the program, he looked into it and told us that everything is fine with the system, every affiliate was fine, and it was only us experiencing issues. So, how come 9 months constant sales, constant conversions and since the change 0 sales.

I ofcourse dropped the sponsor. Pitty, they were our #1 sponsor and it was hard for me to change all the links.

The point is, if we weren't profitable for them, they should've told us and we'd just stop promoting them, stopping sales completely is a bad unprofessional move. I doubt we weren't profitable tho, the traffic being sent was virgin typein traffic.

cherrylula · 03-05-2005, 10:52 AM

hmmm I've had similar thing happen. Now you have me curious.

polish_aristocrat · 03-05-2005, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkiraSS

Then the sponsor changed their stats system to one of the new, emerging, blah blah stat systems by one of the annoying board people.

this made me laugh

Jace · 03-05-2005, 10:52 AM

i know it sounds cliche

but what sponsor was it?

cherrylula · 03-05-2005, 10:53 AM

did they switch to nats by chance?

polish_aristocrat · 03-05-2005, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cherrylula

did they switch to nats by chance?

i think he meant someone else, lol

PornHero · 03-05-2005, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cherrylula

hmmm I've had similar thing happen. Now you have me curious.

ditto.

I think every adultwebmaster has at least one sponsor that has the webmaster saying;

hmmmm...

Antonio · 03-05-2005, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cherrylula

did they switch to nats by chance?

I don't know of any other 'emerging, blah blah stat system', do you ?

;)

AkiraSS · 03-05-2005, 10:57 AM

No, they switched to Brad Shaw's Executive stats

I've tried sponsors with a NATS backend, they convert 3 times worse that our average.

Our main sponsors now don't use NATS nor Executive stats.

Antonio · 03-05-2005, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkiraSS

No, they switched to Brad Shaw's Executive stats

I've tried sponsors with a NATS backend, they convert 3 times worse that our average.

Our main sponsors now don't use NATS nor Executive stats.

lol I forgot about Brad Shaw........

gxer · 03-05-2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkiraSS

No, they switched to Brad Shaw's Executive stats

I've tried sponsors with a NATS backend, they convert 3 times worse that our average.

Our main sponsors now don't use NATS nor Executive stats.

now you'll see how many honest programs will post here - "try our program bla bla bla try our program bla bla bla " cause they want your type-in traffic too.
Don't send your type-ins to any honest program - open yours for god sake.

lloyd · 03-05-2005, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkiraSS

No, they switched to Brad Shaw's Executive stats

I've tried sponsors with a NATS backend, they convert 3 times worse that our average.

Our main sponsors now don't use NATS nor Executive stats.

perhaps the non-nats/executive ones werent allowing for fraudulent shit and just paying out on everything regardless of chargebacks? i dunno, just a guess here but def not trying to attack your traffic

cherrylula · 03-05-2005, 11:11 AM

maybe executive stats comes with the shave on by default.

Fletch XXX · 03-05-2005, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkiraSS

No, they switched to Brad Shaw's Executive stats

i think this was pretty obvious.

doesnt "shaw" mean shave in canadian?

Manowar · 03-05-2005, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polish_aristocrat

this made me laugh

same

Smut · 03-05-2005, 11:14 AM

Didn't the SIC in "SICCash" used to stand for "Shave In Commission"?

KRL · 03-05-2005, 11:27 AM

The worst aspect of this biz is the dreaded on/off switch.

Persius · 03-05-2005, 11:33 AM

Sounds like something i have heard in the past

FUCKERS GO TO HELL!

emthree · 03-05-2005, 08:38 PM

I've noticed this happen once or twice too.
The traffic was the same, but the sales just dropped after they did some "updates".

http · 03-05-2005, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch XXX

i think this was pretty obvious.

doesnt "shaw" mean shave in canadian?

hahaha ha

Funky Bastard · 03-05-2005, 08:53 PM

Same shit happen to me on a few sponsor's some even wiped out my webmaster referrals to It's fucking bullshit but hey what can you do just stop useing them.

TMM_John · 03-05-2005, 09:03 PM

Lots of assumptions by lots of people in this thread.

If you ever feel something is wrong with a NATS program that is costing you sales, contact us. We're here for the affiliates too.

Thomas1007 · 03-05-2005, 09:04 PM

This happens to every webmaster if your around long enough.
Sad but true. Then again you cant blame the software, you have to
look at the sponsors ethics. There are Other affiliate software suites
available to programs. You just have to ask.

Oh ya and See Sig.

OG LennyT · 03-05-2005, 09:04 PM

interesting topic for sure

Worldnet · 03-05-2005, 09:08 PM

Only industry that knows they are being screwed, and is happy with it. I trust none of them.

SomeCreep · 03-05-2005, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkiraSS

Then the sponsor changed their stats system to one of the new, emerging, blah blah stat systems by one of the annoying board people. Since the changed, our sales stopped. I won't go into our traffic, it's the same traffic. We ofcourse contacted the owner of the program, he looked into it and told us that everything is fine with the system, every affiliate was fine, and it was only us experiencing issues. So, how come 9 months constant sales, constant conversions and since the change 0 sales.

I ofcourse dropped the sponsor. Pitty, they were our #1 sponsor and it was hard for me to change all the links.
.

Name the sponsor and perhaps other webmasters can relate similar experiences they've had with them.

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 03-05-2005, 09:22 PM

Prolly somthing about the join templates.

Believe it or not traffic is very very affected by the join form.
Any change to a join form has some sorta impact.
SOmetimes good, sometimes bad.

slapass · 03-05-2005, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkiraSS

the emerging sponsors that offer free trials.

Then the sponsor changed their stats system to one of the new, emerging, blah blah stat systems by one of the annoying board people.

Who the heck matches those 2 statements?

The guy mentioned join page hit it on the head. Look closely as it is hard to see.

Meloman · 03-05-2005, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienQ

Prolly somthing about the join templates.

Believe it or not traffic is very very affected by the join form.
Any change to a join form has some sorta impact.
SOmetimes good, sometimes bad.

I agree. It could very well be that the sponsor isn't shaving but the new join form template from the new stats program just isn't converting as well as the old one.

Could be something as simple as the "free trial" checkbox isn't checked by default and the monthly one is now. Or maybe they've updated there "disclosure" to cut down on chargebacks and it's now worded in a way that cuts down on sales etc.. ie. the small print that says the trial converts to full membership at the bottom of the join page may stand out more on the new template or is worded in a way that makes it so clear it scares of some surfers cause they thought it was really free.

I think people are too quick to jump to the "shave" word. I've personally have seen the same things happen but then with further inquiry I've found that it was the join page that changed. Simple tweaks to the join page can easily increase/decrease sales.

The question though is if it really is something like the join page then ALL sales should have been effected from all affiliates.

Just my 2

slapass · 03-05-2005, 09:40 PM

I wish he would confirm the sponsor but it was a bigger change then that for the one I am thinking of. Very global and affected his conversions.

ICQ 166708909

Shoplifter · 03-05-2005, 10:11 PM

This has happened many times to me...I can remember doing $5k / month with big sponsors back when they were revshare and as soon as they went PPS with "one of the annoying systems" it went to -zero-.

Never, ever trust a system with hidden accounting.

Those people who say that PPS is fine for them almost certainly have no benchmark for comparing traffic. As I run both my own paysites and send some sponsor traffic I can easily find who is screwing me...

nico-t · 03-05-2005, 10:17 PM

have a sponsor
converted about 1:700 in the first 3 months or so
all of a sudden the whole january month converted about 1:150
and now it looks like theyre back at my first ratio

plus i have one sponsor that converts like 1:800 all the time. Im positibe theyre shaving..
but the fucked up thing is; we cant ever check if its not the case since the stats systems are run by the sponsors themselfs.

nico-t · 03-05-2005, 10:18 PM

btw; not talking about the one in my sig in both cases.. so join em ;)

Tom_PM · 03-05-2005, 10:27 PM

Did you do a test signup and observe the results? If not, why not?

I'm pretty sure I know the program, and I've had similar sales since the changeover as before the changeover.

I've also changed links to the new links because it was easy for me to do, and I like to stay up on linking codes if they change.

Anyway, good luck.

SmokeyTheBear · 03-05-2005, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkiraSS

I've tried sponsors with a NATS backend, they convert 3 times worse that our average.

I have noticed this as well.

Sponsors should be`aware when they suddenly notice a LARGE increase in sales without ref codes after switching to NATS. SOMETHING IS WRONG

Furious_Female · 03-05-2005, 11:31 PM

I've been singing this same tune for 5 years now...

"Nothing wrong on our end, must be your traffic"

Consistent traffic/sales don't change overnight, that's bullshit.

Matt_WildCash · 03-05-2005, 11:41 PM

People mention shaving too quickly. Join page changing can effect sales greatly.

thaifan99 · 03-06-2005, 01:21 AM

Shaving and blocking are 2 very different things.....

One of my sponsors regularly must block me.......i saw my epoch stats once and i was quite profitable......so i trebled my sales with them........maybe im not now.....stats started wild fluctuations.

BIGTYMER · 03-06-2005, 02:14 AM

What a thread...

zentz · 03-06-2005, 02:24 AM

like we dont know that...

bigdog · 03-06-2005, 03:04 AM

what i really like is when i open a new accout with that same sponsor the sales all of a sudden start to come back

opflix · 03-06-2005, 06:55 AM

someone hit the nail on the head here... sponsors don't "shave" anymore, they just use software to "evaluate" the productivity & profitability of your traffic & if it isn't making a certain amount more than they are paying for it, they just don't report that you ever sent the signup. simple... basically, they are putting the burden of "finding" their money rather on the webmaster rather than accepting the responsibility that is up to THEM how much money they make from your traffic (they make money whether u send signups or not so.... strange concept).

..

Worldnet · 03-06-2005, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by opflix

someone hit the nail on the head here... sponsors don't "shave" anymore, they just use software to "evaluate" the productivity & profitability of your traffic & if it isn't making a certain amount more than they are paying for it, they just don't report that you ever sent the signup. simple... basically, they are putting the burden of "finding" their money rather on the webmaster rather than accepting the responsibility that is up to THEM how much money they make from your traffic (they make money whether u send signups or not so.... strange concept).

..

You hit it right on the head!

mikeyddddd · 03-06-2005, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PornHero

ditto.

I think every adultwebmaster has at least one sponsor that has the webmaster saying;

hmmmm...

Fucking perfect!

Relish XXX · 03-06-2005, 07:15 AM

I dont believe in switching people off without them knowing but I dont see why a sponsor should pay for something when they arent making a return. If all their affiliates were unprofitable then the company would close and no-one would get paid.

Steve · 03-06-2005, 08:17 AM

maybe the new software just sucks, and doesn't credit the affiliate with the join? The sponsor sees the same total joins coming in - but your lost joins go to the master account.

mardigras · 03-06-2005, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relish XXX

I dont believe in switching people off without them knowing but I dont see why a sponsor should pay for something when they arent making a return. If all their affiliates were unprofitable then the company would close and no-one would get paid.

If sales from an affiliate aren't "profitable" and the solution is to steal them, the sponsor needs to rethink their business model.

bigdog · 03-06-2005, 08:37 AM

It would be hard for a big program to keep the fact that they shave quiet, unless the operators were programmers themselves so they don't have to rely on any tech help

Furious_Male · 03-06-2005, 08:45 AM

I have seen this over and over through the years as well. I dread any sort of upgrade at this point as it always seem to lead to lower sales (coincidence or not). I think Alien has a very valid point with the join form. When one of my sponsors is playing with the join form I am quick to catch it. The worst is the newer forms that really show the surfer they can pay by check or phone when the program doesn't pay the affiliate for those signups.

Let me also throw processors into the mix as well here. One of the private programs I send traffic to has been kind enough to show me my attempt to join/approve ratios on a regular basis. I am amazed at the amount of declines that come through on the "bad days".

So many variables..

Relish XXX · 03-06-2005, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mardigras

If sales from an affiliate aren't "profitable" and the solution is to steal them, the sponsor needs to rethink their business model.

I wasnt saying steal them. What I was trying to say is that say an affliate is sending you 100 sign ups per month on a free trail sign up program and none of them are becoming full members then why should the program waste $3500 for that traffic? If it was me I would drop an email to the affiliate saying that in 10 days from now your account will be deactivated and you will be paid up to that date.

03-05-2005, 11:27 AM	#17
KRL Entrepreneur Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: USA Posts: 31,429	The worst aspect of this biz is the dreaded on/off switch. __________________ If you would like to develop your domains, you can lease inexpensive foreign labor from the leaders in the field at iWebmasters.com TO LOWER YOUR COSTS AND INCREASE YOUR PRODUCTION! * * * * * * * * * * * * Domains Adult News KRL's Newsletter Biz Tips Just Listed Domains

03-05-2005, 08:38 PM	#19
emthree Dialer Kingpin Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New York Posts: 10,816	I've noticed this happen once or twice too. The traffic was the same, but the sales just dropped after they did some "updates". __________________ • Sell Patches & Pills •

03-05-2005, 08:53 PM	#21
Funky Bastard So Fucking Banned Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 2,544	Same shit happen to me on a few sponsor's some even wiped out my webmaster referrals to It's fucking bullshit but hey what can you do just stop useing them. Last edited by HKS; 03-05-2005 at 08:54 PM..

03-05-2005, 09:03 PM	#22
TMM_John Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 6,664	Lots of assumptions by lots of people in this thread. If you ever feel something is wrong with a NATS program that is costing you sales, contact us. We're here for the affiliates too. __________________ Too Much Media - Makers of the Industry's Leading Payite Management Platform, NATS!

03-05-2005, 09:04 PM	#23
Thomas1007 Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: BC Canada Posts: 5,542	This happens to every webmaster if your around long enough. Sad but true. Then again you cant blame the software, you have to look at the sponsors ethics. There are Other affiliate software suites available to programs. You just have to ask. Oh ya and See Sig. __________________ BUY THIS SPOT CONTACT ME FOR DETAILS Contact Email

03-05-2005, 10:50 AM	#1
AkiraSS Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ICQ: 17630227 Posts: 2,988	When you stop being profitable, some sponsors turn off sales for you We sent lots of traffic to various sponsors and I've noticed something with the emerging sponsors that offer free trials. We were sending constantly around 1000-2000 hits per day averaging at 10 sales per day and converting around 1:160 overall on unique hits. It was solid for 9 months. Then the sponsor changed their stats system to one of the new, emerging, blah blah stat systems by one of the annoying board people. Since the changed, our sales stopped. I won't go into our traffic, it's the same traffic. We ofcourse contacted the owner of the program, he looked into it and told us that everything is fine with the system, every affiliate was fine, and it was only us experiencing issues. So, how come 9 months constant sales, constant conversions and since the change 0 sales. I ofcourse dropped the sponsor. Pitty, they were our #1 sponsor and it was hard for me to change all the links. The point is, if we weren't profitable for them, they should've told us and we'd just stop promoting them, stopping sales completely is a bad unprofessional move. I doubt we weren't profitable tho, the traffic being sent was virgin typein traffic.

03-05-2005, 10:52 AM	#2
cherrylula lol Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 15,969	hmmm I've had similar thing happen. Now you have me curious.

03-05-2005, 10:52 AM	#4
Jace FBOP Class Of 2013 Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: bumfuck, ky Posts: 35,562	i know it sounds cliche but what sponsor was it?

03-05-2005, 10:53 AM	#5
cherrylula lol Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 15,969	did they switch to nats by chance?

03-05-2005, 10:57 AM	#9
AkiraSS Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ICQ: 17630227 Posts: 2,988	No, they switched to Brad Shaw's Executive stats I've tried sponsors with a NATS backend, they convert 3 times worse that our average. Our main sponsors now don't use NATS nor Executive stats.

03-05-2005, 11:11 AM	#13
cherrylula lol Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 15,969	maybe executive stats comes with the shave on by default.

03-05-2005, 11:14 AM	#16
Smut Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 654	Didn't the SIC in "SICCash" used to stand for "Shave In Commission"?

03-05-2005, 11:33 AM	#18
Persius Tap into MOBILE! Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Hollywood Posts: 11,779	Sounds like something i have heard in the past FUCKERS GO TO HELL!

03-05-2005, 09:04 PM	#24
OG LennyT Wall Street Pimp Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 14,345	interesting topic for sure __________________ Tradeking - my online broker \| 4.95 a trade \| make real $$

03-05-2005, 09:08 PM	#25
Worldnet Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atlanta Posts: 996	Only industry that knows they are being screwed, and is happy with it. I trust none of them.

03-05-2005, 09:22 PM	#27
AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE best designer on GFY Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IALIEN.COM - High Definition Video and Photographic Productions -ICQ 78943384 Posts: 30,307	Prolly somthing about the join templates. Believe it or not traffic is very very affected by the join form. Any change to a join form has some sorta impact. SOmetimes good, sometimes bad. __________________ NAKED HOSTING FTW!11 I'm On The INSANE PLAN $9.95/mo! \| The Alien Blog Adult News Worth Reading Updated Daily \| Content For Sale! 641 PICS 216 MINUTES OF VIDEO $350.00 \|ICQ: 78943384 \|

03-05-2005, 09:40 PM	#30
slapass Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 14,625	I wish he would confirm the sponsor but it was a bigger change then that for the one I am thinking of. Very global and affected his conversions. ICQ 166708909

03-05-2005, 10:11 PM	#31
Shoplifter Richest man in Babylon Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Posts: 10,002 Posts: 5,733	This has happened many times to me...I can remember doing $5k / month with big sponsors back when they were revshare and as soon as they went PPS with "one of the annoying systems" it went to -zero-. Never, ever trust a system with hidden accounting. Those people who say that PPS is fine for them almost certainly have no benchmark for comparing traffic. As I run both my own paysites and send some sponsor traffic I can easily find who is screwing me...

03-05-2005, 10:17 PM	#32
nico-t emperor of my world Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: nethalands Posts: 29,903	have a sponsor converted about 1:700 in the first 3 months or so all of a sudden the whole january month converted about 1:150 and now it looks like theyre back at my first ratio plus i have one sponsor that converts like 1:800 all the time. Im positibe theyre shaving.. but the fucked up thing is; we cant ever check if its not the case since the stats systems are run by the sponsors themselfs.

03-05-2005, 10:18 PM	#33
nico-t emperor of my world Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: nethalands Posts: 29,903	btw; not talking about the one in my sig in both cases.. so join em ;)

03-05-2005, 10:27 PM	#34
Tom_PM Porn Meister Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 16,443	Did you do a test signup and observe the results? If not, why not? I'm pretty sure I know the program, and I've had similar sales since the changeover as before the changeover. I've also changed links to the new links because it was easy for me to do, and I like to stay up on linking codes if they change. Anyway, good luck. __________________ 43-922-863 Shut up and play your guitar.

03-05-2005, 11:31 PM	#36
Furious_Female Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Upstate, New York Posts: 8,187	I've been singing this same tune for 5 years now... "Nothing wrong on our end, must be your traffic" Consistent traffic/sales don't change overnight, that's bullshit. __________________ Skype: j3nn.com ICQ 160370494 My current favorite high-converting sponsor: CrakRevenue

03-05-2005, 11:41 PM	#37
Matt_WildCash Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,699	People mention shaving too quickly. Join page changing can effect sales greatly.

03-06-2005, 01:21 AM	#38
thaifan99 Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 3,029	Shaving and blocking are 2 very different things..... One of my sponsors regularly must block me.......i saw my epoch stats once and i was quite profitable......so i trebled my sales with them........maybe im not now.....stats started wild fluctuations. __________________ ARE YOU A FAMILY MEMBER? CLICK HERE TO FIND OUT!

03-06-2005, 02:14 AM	#39
BIGTYMER Junior Achiever Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Walled Garden Posts: 17,066	What a thread...

03-06-2005, 02:24 AM	#40
zentz Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 8,053	like we dont know that... __________________ Programs that owe me money ---- Epassporte.com ~ $2700 \| Protraffic.com ~ $2600 \| XonDemand.com ~ $3000 Email: [email protected]

03-06-2005, 03:04 AM	#41
bigdog Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 6,964	what i really like is when i open a new accout with that same sponsor the sales all of a sudden start to come back

03-06-2005, 06:55 AM	#42
opflix Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: HELL Posts: 1,428	someone hit the nail on the head here... sponsors don't "shave" anymore, they just use software to "evaluate" the productivity & profitability of your traffic & if it isn't making a certain amount more than they are paying for it, they just don't report that you ever sent the signup. simple... basically, they are putting the burden of "finding" their money rather on the webmaster rather than accepting the responsibility that is up to THEM how much money they make from your traffic (they make money whether u send signups or not so.... strange concept). .. __________________ Social Escrow - Buying & Selling Accounts? Contact Me \| Social Escrow IG

03-06-2005, 07:15 AM	#45
Relish XXX Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: www.adultlabel.com Posts: 4,904	I dont believe in switching people off without them knowing but I dont see why a sponsor should pay for something when they arent making a return. If all their affiliates were unprofitable then the company would close and no-one would get paid. __________________

03-06-2005, 08:17 AM	#46
Steve Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: USA Posts: 6,894	maybe the new software just sucks, and doesn't credit the affiliate with the join? The sponsor sees the same total joins coming in - but your lost joins go to the master account.

03-06-2005, 08:37 AM	#48
bigdog Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 6,964	It would be hard for a big program to keep the fact that they shave quiet, unless the operators were programmers themselves so they don't have to rely on any tech help

03-06-2005, 08:45 AM	#49
Furious_Male Doing the grind since 99 Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Buffalo NY Posts: 16,883	I have seen this over and over through the years as well. I dread any sort of upgrade at this point as it always seem to lead to lower sales (coincidence or not). I think Alien has a very valid point with the join form. When one of my sponsors is playing with the join form I am quick to catch it. The worst is the newer forms that really show the surfer they can pay by check or phone when the program doesn't pay the affiliate for those signups. Let me also throw processors into the mix as well here. One of the private programs I send traffic to has been kind enough to show me my attempt to join/approve ratios on a regular basis. I am amazed at the amount of declines that come through on the "bad days". So many variables.. __________________ Living in Virtual Reality Contact: Email (preferred): furiousmale .at. gmail - Skype: live:shanedws