to all MUSLIMS

[playa]

I understand not all muslims agree with
BIN LADIN,,,even his own family disowns him,,,

but why are the certains ones hate the US?

-is it because the women can drive?
-women are allowed the same rights as man and don't cover up their body and face?
-is it because we are allowed all the basic freedom for man kind?

Yesterday on the news they interviewed some students in a Pakistan college.. They said that Bin Laden was their HERO!!!
but what was ironic was they spoke very good ENGLISH

Something is wrong when i hear that we are knowned as the SATAN country..

please educate a dumb american

------------------
------------
Playa
icq#38147712
I ain't no NEWBIE
www.NoBSdialer.com

[Sjayne]

A lot of people in Pakistan and India speak English because of the past where the British had control of their countries.

The Taliban has roots in Pakistan. A lot of the time the massive border between them and Afghanistan is just a formailty. So a lot of the people in Pakistan that are calling Bin Laden a hero are of the same sort of stock as him.

I am just now on tv watching a news report on Pakistan's opinion towards the US and one point that keeps comming up over and over is that some feel resentment because they were supported during the cold war and then when it was over the US pulled out all support. So, they feel used.

Sure that isn't the while reason just a part of it.

[Hypo]

Wasnt Ben Laden U.S.'s hero too once? After all the CIA is the one who trained him how to bomb and kill humans.

[Amputate Your Head]

It doesn't take a Masters Degree to kill people.

[playa]

hero i don't know but
it was just a political move,,,
trying to stop communism,,maybe even helped to end it in russia?

russia fighting afghans so US was helping afghan,,

same as Russia helping vietnam when US was fighting them,,,

------------------
------------
Playa
icq#38147712
I ain't no NEWBIE
www.NoBSdialer.com

[Hypo]

Since when is killing people 'just' a political move? Killing Russians is ok, but killing Americans is not? CIA's been funding terrorist camp in Afghanistan for so long that it's finally come back to haunt them.

[Hypo]

And what's wrong with communism? Who is U.S.A. to decide which policy a country should adopt?

[Amputate Your Head]

Originally posted by Hypo:
And what's wrong with communism?

Are you kidding?

TRUE communism actually has some good points. But there is no true communism in the world. Only the perverted versions of it used by dictators to keep their people under the thumb.

[Sjayne]

Well think of it this way. We are educated and have the ability to read different newspapers and the such.

People under the Taliban have little education. The women have none. So, what they saw was the US comming in and using their nations and then dropping them when they were no longer needed. They don't know why they just know we did.

They can't research things on their own as the only media they have are newspapers and radio controlled by the Taliban. Therefore their opinions are based on what they are allowed to see and read.

[Gary]

Hypo=Communist

[playa]

Originally posted by Hypo:
Since when is killing people 'just' a political move? Killing Russians is ok, but killing Americans is not? CIA's been funding terrorist camp in Afghanistan for so long that it's finally come back to haunt them.

it was a WAR,, at the time it was in the best interest of free world,,,

and what's wrong with communism?
lets be for real,,
are you a communist or something?

i like my freedom and my capitalistic society which i live in,, without i wouldn't be able to buy my own house and car,,own my own business,,

if Russia wanted to be a communist country that was fine,,but the point was that they wanted to spread communism to other countries,,,that was the problem,,which is not OK

------------------
------------
Playa
icq#38147712
I ain't no NEWBIE
www.NoBSdialer.com

[Taz]

if Russia wanted to be a communist country that was fine,,but the point was that they wanted to spread communism to other countries,,,that was the problem,,which is not OK

********

Sounds kinda like a lot of religious groups huh?

[Hypo]

You guys are trying to make excuses for the killing of innocent Russians by terrorist camps in Afghanistan funded by the U.S.?

No, I'm no communist, but I would not like to interfere with another country which is.

[Hypo]

If Christians wanted to be Christians that's fine, but they want to spread Christanity, so they ought to be killed. Sound right?

[Kimmykim]

Originally posted by Hypo:
And what's wrong with communism? Who is U.S.A. to decide which policy a country should adopt?

To each his need, from each his ability. One of the prime credos in the Communist Manifesto.

You tell me what is NOT wrong with that.

[playa]

religion and government are two different things,,,,

how bout all the americans that died during the vietnam and korean war because russia helped the country to spread communism?

tell me hypo would you rather be living in a communist country or a democratic country?

if communism kept on spreading this world might not be the same,,

be thankful for what the US and other free world countries did

------------------
------------
Playa
icq#38147712
I ain't no NEWBIE
www.NoBSdialer.com

[Sjayne]

*bang head against the wall*

For a second there I thought someone was asking a question they actually wanted answered so they could better understand what is going on. My mistake.

I don't recall playa actually putting down anyone in his post. It just sounded like an honest question. Next time I will come armed with the 'our way is better than yours' (on both sides of this thread) retorts.

Also..if you have to answer a question with a question you aren't answering it.

[playa]

sjane,,

thanks for your input,,,i understand that the main topic was drifted away,,,

please i want more info from other muslims,,

i feel this might educate the people that don't know,,,

what's is going on here is that there are alot of hatred of the arab community,,

like a story of a guy that drove his truck into a MOSQUE...people spitting on the ARAB people...its a shame,,

i got a neighbor whose a arab don't know who they are never met them but what was scary is the news said that you never know who can be a terrorist in the US,,maybe even your neighbor?

------------------
------------
Playa
icq#38147712
I ain't no NEWBIE
www.NoBSdialer.com

[Hypo]

If there was a society where a person got a richer better lifestyle because he/she had better looks, would that be acceptable? You would say that just because I was born ugly I'm homeless. Similarly, if a person is born with better intelligence and gets a better lifestyle because of that, communist nations do not consider that acceptable. Of course I would not like to be in a communist country because I'm intelligent and have money, but if I was poor and homeless I would have.

Whatver, the arguement here is not about communism, what I'm saying is it was U.S.'s fault in funding terrorist camps for whatever reasons, as innocent lives were lost because of that, first there, and now in the U.S. When lives were lost there, the CIA loved Ben Laden, and now that lives are lost in the U.S., it's obvious Pakistan would consider him a hero.

[richard123]

Originally posted by playa:
...
please i want more info from other muslims,,

i feel this might educate the people that don't know...

OK. How about this: No muslim will be reading this board because pornography is sinful (or however you wanna put it) in *all* religions.

If you are truly interested in Islam, then go and find some muslims. They aren't real big on "spreading the word" (compared to many other religions), but have a look at
http://www.islam-qa.com/ http://www.islam.com/

or just search for it in Google.

There is no straight simple answer as to why USA is so hated in the Middle East. But you will soon see that it's easy to understand (in general terms) if you do some research yourself.

[YoYoBean]

Personally I dont know how Bush can say that bashing Muslims in America is not the Merica he knows...me must not get out that much because massive amounts of Muslims are getting harassed and beaten up...

Especially in aussie...in arab controled area like bankstown...they see a white face they run for da hills! LOL

[playa]

Originally posted by richard123:
OK. How about this: No muslim will be reading this board because pornography is sinful (or however you wanna put it) in *all* religions.

.

i believe there is alot of "muslim" webmasters that are on this board..

i can read all the publications and watch all the tv,,,i just wanted feedback from people


------------------
------------
Playa
icq#38147712
I ain't no NEWBIE
www.NoBSdialer.com

[Heinz]

In 1996 the whole world was proud of an american muslim. He growed up with the name Cassius Clay, later he joined the black muslims and took the name Muhammed Ali. He was one of the greatest sportler ever, after his sportlive he gave his money and his power to different welfare projects. And even when he got the parkinson syndrom, he tried to help other people.
I hope nobody is flaming now Muhammed Ali for beeing a muslim and a murder.
In one aspect, the islam is like every other great religion. You can take the holy book or the koran and you will find what you need. In the bible you can find the message of love, and you can find a message of "one-eye-for-another". In the name of Jesus were some millions killed, maybe you have heard about the crusades or the inquisition, the religion wars or the witchburning.
I never read the koran, but I'm sure you will find there paragraphes about the holy war and you will find paragraphes about love and peace.
Not the books are guilty, not the religions, and sure not god.

[jimmyf]

I really don't think the CIA saw very much of Ben Laden,
from what I've heard he did very little if any fighting for Afghanistan when they were fought Russia.
He mostly made appearances at hospitals, schools, and got butt fucked mostly.

And he sure the fuck was no hero to the CIA nor any American.

And yes killing russians was ok at the time. After all they wanted to change a World
that did want to be changed. And wanted to kill Americans

Yes the Americans funded funding terrorist camps in Afghanistan and we will be funding them again, the sooner the
better.

The USA has helped others and it has come back to haunt them and am sure it will happen again. That's one of the
cost of doing business.

None of you have ever made a mistake I guess.

You've got to remember people are making these dissuasions and people make mistakes.

Jim

[ammo325]

I feel I have some experience in this area since I have studied and been exposed to it a bit.

First of all, no one should ever confuse the Muslim extremist and the ones practicing Islam and go the way of Muhammud.

Muslim extremists impose rules that better their causes, yet are not part of the actual religion. Such countries exist for power, money, greed. Such as when the Shaw of Iran was in power, he tried to better his country by trashing some of the previous laws that controlled the society.

Most of the laws pertain to the women. Why? If you give a woman a taste of freedom, she is going to fight back. She fights back and then the men become weak, or in other words, women based on their emotions can turn a stone cold man into to an understanding and responsible individual. Then Khomeni took over, well Iran became a rough state to live in at that time. Khomeni, imposed laws, supposedly based on religion and killed many people that got out of line. Its called control.

The actual practicing Moslem people are as free as christians are, with one aspect that we don't have, they are supposed to commit their entire life to Allah. Now Chrisitanity kind of does that same thing, except sins are forgiven. To be a Moslem you must be totally committed, no sin, nothing otherwise you are not a Moslem.

This is how they control the people in those countries and brainwash them into thinking we are the devil because we are sinners.

So to see a real person following the Islam ways may happen but not that often.

Government and religion do not mix



[This message has been edited by ammo325 (edited 09-18-2001).]

[richard123]

Originally posted by ammo325:
[B]... Most of the laws pertain to the women. ... To be a Moslem you must be totally committed, no sin, nothing otherwise you are not a Moslem.
... Government and religion do not mix
B]

OK I cut a bit out. First: Most of their "laws" do not pertain to women. There are relatively very few laws that pertain exclusively to women.
Sins: Example: Masturbation is a sin. If you are 14 years old and masturbate 3-4 times a day, the muslim leaders (talking sunni muslims, which are the most common by far) say that God doesn't expect you to stop doing something you cannot stop. He also does not want you to stop enjoying yourself. It's a sin. So what do you do? You simply repent by praying or whatever. Easy peasy And very similar, if not the same as most Christian religions.

You are entirely right in saying that religion and politics don't mix (IMO). That's what I see the main problem being with Islam: Government and church are the same. That equals big trouble.

Playa: I get your point, but I think asking people here about Islam is a bit like asking me about Christianity. I am supposed to be one, but I'm buggered if I know hardly anything about it. I mean, I cannot speak with authority on the subject. I think most people here are in the same boat, or else they wouldn't be here (due to the porn thing). I also think that the posts you read here prove that to be the case.

You deserve credit for asking the question, however, rather than just striking out at the unknown.

[ammo325]

Actually if you read my post carefully, you would have seen that I was speaking about the countries that use the Muslim religion as a tool to control their people, not the religion itself

[playa]

basically what i hear so far in the news that the US is trying to get support from the non extremist muslim,,,
with support from pakistan and other area are helping the US,,,

hopefully with the support of the Muslim nations together we can get rid of the militant terroists,,,



------------------
------------
Playa
icq#38147712
I ain't no NEWBIE
www.NoBSdialer.com

[richard123]

Originally posted by playa:

hopefully with the support of the Muslim nations together we can get rid of the militant terroists,,,

I hope so too. I suppose yo heard too that the anti-arab/anti-muslim stuff happening in the US (and elsewhere) is hurting the US cause. Pretty goddamn hard to stop, tho.

About the media, by the way: Listening to CNN and all the others appears to give a biased view in many cases. Did anyone ever find out if the "we want Bin Laden dead or alive" was mis-reported? Down here, it was reported like that was exactly what he said. But somehow I don't think he did...

ammo: OK, no problem.

[Sjayne]

I watched the press conference where he said it. Someone asked him directly if he wanted Bin Laden dead. Bush said something like 'I want him brought to justice.' Then a slight pause and he said 'In the old west there was a poster when they were looking for criminals. It said 'wanted dead or alive'

He repeated that last bit twice in the the press conference which leads me to belive it wasn't on his script of answers. Probabbly had his spokes people wetting their pants.

Just like him using the word crusade today. WOW! what a bad word to say if we are looking for help from middle eastern countries.

[titmowse]

http://religioustolerance.org

This is great source of information and history on all the world's religions.

love


------------------
tit,
writer for:
COZYFROG and EROTICOPY

[Tucks]

Originally posted by playa:

Something is wrong when i hear that we are knowned as the SATAN country..

please educate a dumb american

I may be a bit naive, but I think I can offer a decent metaphor:

Christians = Muslims

Crazy abortion bombing Christians = Bin Laden's type of Muslims

There's a very small percentage of each religion that is so militant as to do these acts of terrorism, but that small core is prepared to do anything it takes to end, what they believe, are acts against their god. Every time an abortion clinic is destroyed, or a doctor killed, there's a small subset of Christians that rejoice and truly believe they've helped the world. Likewise with Muslims.

Imagine abortion-clinic bombing Christians deciding they were going to stop the practice worldwide. The difference is the abortion bombers view a relatively small part of society as the problem - abortion clinics. Fundamentalist Islams believe the entire concept of Western culture is an affront to their god. So they don't set out to destroy a small part of society like abortion clinics; they set out to destroy the society.

The past wars and such are strictly incidental. Fundamentalist Islams believe western society violates the 'orders' their god has given them. In their mind, not only is this evil society NOT changing their ways to meet their interpretation of Allah's vision, but far worse - they're evil practices are encroaching on the few parts of the world they feel ARE following Allah's advice.

99% of Muslims are the same as 99% of Christians and 99% of Jews - some deviations on who and how their god came to be, but following similar principles. It's the 1% of each group that's scary. 1% of Muslims equates to about 10 million people, many of whom have lived in a society where even viewing other ideas is not allowed - hence they tend to be extremely set on what they've been taught. And OBL is viewed as the person that's going to lead this 1% to unequivable victory, because after all - they're fighting for a holy cause - they can't lose.

That's my take, anyhow...

[Rip]

There are fanatics in every religion, the main thing is, that up until now, they have been killing each other

and in most cases feared death

most of these people are brainwashed into believing that when they kill their 'enemy' in the name of their religion, that there can be no more glorious way to enter 'heaven'

did anyone see that tape of disinformation played to young lebanese males, promising them wall to wall virgins waiting for them in 'heaven'? (talk about sexual perversion)

anyway with nut cases willing to commit suicide, it makes things a helluva lot tougher

The US president was advised, though - if you remember, that 'star wars' was a waste of money and that a bigger threat came from someone packing a NUKE in a suitcase and strolling into NYC - it's very sad, but they weren't that far wrong

------------------
$$ DIRTY GOLD $$ Revenue Program

JackThumbsTGP VideoKAT-ViDeOpOsT
Post Gallieries - Trade Traffic

[This message has been edited by Rip (edited 09-18-2001).]

[AWC]

bin Laden is to Muslims

as

David Koresh is to Christians

[richard123]

Originally posted by Tucks:
The past wars and such are strictly incidental. Fundamentalist Islams believe western society violates the 'orders' their god has given them. In their mind, not only is this evil society NOT changing their ways to meet their interpretation of Allah's vision, but far worse - they're evil practices are encroaching on the few parts of the world they feel ARE following Allah's advice.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that they are fighting for Islam alone. If you look at the pics coming from Palestine, there are banners saying "change US foreign policy now". Muslim countries are reported to say that they condemn the terrorist actions, but they understand why this happened, and it's because of the wars fought for US self interest that appears to be the motivatiuon there.

Also Bin Ladens personal history seems to have been affected by the wars. He was reportedly furious when Americans were in Saudi Arabia because Saudi Arabia is their holiest land. He also reportedly believes that his victory over the Russians means he can beat the USA as well. Back in '79 the Soviet Union was a pretty happening super power. Bin Laden reckons he was instrumental in the downfall of communism.

Still... who's to know the inner workings of a complete head case?

[richard123]

And also: It appears that the USA was attacked for their foreign policy because otherwise, they would have gone for (say) India or Japan or somewhere where there are no "people of the book" (since Jews and Christians are "higher" or "better" or whatever than any other religion).

[playa]

damn good post TUCKS

i never looked at it like that

------------------
------------
Playa
icq#38147712
I ain't no NEWBIE
www.NoBSdialer.com

[UnseenWorld]

I'm always frustrated when people discuss the "causes" of Islamic extremists and leave out the most obvious cause: the creation of Israel after World War II, which displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinian arabs. Arabs have hated Jews ever since, and since we tend to support Israel at every turn, no matter how they treat their Arab citizens, we are hated, too.

Because the Arab population of Israel will surpass the Jewish population in coming decades, Israel will have to decide whether to become a democratic Arab country or a Jewish dictatorship along the lines of the old South Africa.

Now, before you jump to any conclusions, I'm not a Nazi sympathizer or even an anti-semite. I know and love several Jewish people now and as I grew up some of my buddies were Jewish. I was, as a Protestant boy, along with my Jewish friends, the minority in a largely Catholic neighborhood.

However, none of that changes the fact that the creation of Israel was one of the most monumental blulnders in modern history, showing (if I may blithely mix metaphors) that the road to Hell is paved with unintended consequences.

------------------
Check out the new teen/young woman content at Wonders of the Unseen World

[Sovjetz]

good point unseen!

Glad to see this is one of the first ´intelligent´ discussions on the matter!

------------------
life's about making money and spending it!

[baddog]

Originally posted by Hypo:
You guys are trying to make excuses for the killing of innocent Russians by terrorist camps in Afghanistan funded by the U.S.?

hypo you never fail to amaze me with your blatant ignorance. the killing of innocent Russians? In Afghanistan? What fucking innocent Russians were killed in Afghanistan?
You fucking idiot, if you had half a brain, you would be dangerous.

oh, and if communism practiced what it preached, it would actually be the best of all possible scenarios, however, we are dealing with human beings, and thus have to include greed, and desire for power into the formula

fact is, there is no communist country that actually practices communism. rather, they have decided that capitalism is a much more efficient way to run a railroad, along most other, for profit, businesses.

the killing of innocent Russians in Afghanistan! dude you crack me up

------------------
see me for free hosting of movie galleries, your domain, no banners, full FTP

[titmowse]

Unseen, I hope that if I answer your post, you don't jump all over me like you have in the past. Frankly, I think you're brave for bringing this up.

Whether or not the formation of Israel was "right" makes no difference. They are there. Is the UN (or whoever) supposed to tell them: "Sorry, we made a mistake. You have to move now".

The Zionists and the Nation of Islam both believe that area of the world is their sacred, holy land.

I wish the whole world would leave them both alone and let them work/fight it out. I wish they could share but, apparently they can't. Which is ironic because they both believe in the same deity.

I could make wishes like these all day long, but it won't change a damned thing.

love




------------------
tit,
writer for:
COZYFROG and EROTICOPY

[baddog]

Originally posted by richard123:
Did anyone ever find out if the "we want Bin Laden dead or alive" was mis-reported? Down here, it was reported like that was exactly what he said. But somehow I don't think he did...

yep he said it. he said in the old west there was a poster that said, wanted dead or alive. we want bin laden dead or alive

I think the general concensus is that we do not really want him dead or alive, dead will be just fine, and preferred. Alive will just result in a prolonged triak where he will be given certain vivil rights guaranteed by the American Constitution, none of which he deserves or should be granted. Besides, he would just use the Courts as a platform to continue spewing the bile which lives and grows within, and it would make him a martyr to others, and that kind of publicity he does not need. Too expensive to let him continue to live. He must and will be executed as he has caused to be done to others, then he can learn who the true satan really is.



------------------
see me for free hosting of movie galleries, your domain, no banners, full FTP

[Gemini]

For the nth time, Bush said the dead or alive and then capped it with 'We just want justice or we just want him brought to justice'. THAT implies alive, kicking and cuffed.

Selective memories cause more problems then machine guns. Sheesh.

[baddog]

sorry unseen, do not know how to break this to you, but Israel was Israel long before WWII or the United Nations or Kuwait, or South Africa, or Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Russia, USA . . . .

------------------
see me for free hosting of movie galleries, your domain, no banners, full FTP

[titmowse]

and before the last ice age, the world belonged to the dinosaurs. land "belongs" to no one.

love


------------------
tit,
writer for:
COZYFROG and EROTICOPY

[This message has been edited by titmowse (edited 09-19-2001).]

[drumsicle]

Originally posted by UnseenWorld:
I'm always frustrated when people discuss the "causes" of Islamic extremists and leave out the most obvious cause: the creation of Israel after World War II, which displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinian arabs. Arabs have hated Jews ever since, and since we tend to support Israel at every turn, no matter how they treat their Arab citizens, we are hated, too.

Because the Arab population of Israel will surpass the Jewish population in coming decades, Israel will have to decide whether to become a democratic Arab country or a Jewish dictatorship along the lines of the old South Africa.

Now, before you jump to any conclusions, I'm not a Nazi sympathizer or even an anti-semite. I know and love several Jewish people now and as I grew up some of my buddies were Jewish. I was, as a Protestant boy, along with my Jewish friends, the minority in a largely Catholic neighborhood.

However, none of that changes the fact that the creation of Israel was one of the most monumental blulnders in modern history, showing (if I may blithely mix metaphors) that the road to Hell is paved with unintended consequences.

I doesn't make sense. We give Egypt 2 billion a year and sell them all kinds of weapons. We blow the shit out of Iraq to liberate kuwait and protect Saudi. During the 1973 war Israel was set to invade Egypt and Syria...we paid them not to and still give them 3 billion a year. How is are policy not even-handed. The only thing we haven't done "right" is support the destruction of Israel. Sounds like blackmail to me.

As for the displaced Arabs, in 1948 between 600 and 800 thousand Jews were expelled from Arab lands when Israel became a state.

The fact that they will not except Israel's right to exist, is not our problem nor should it be.

[Gemini]

On May 14, 1948, authorities in Israel declared the State of Israel an independent country.

http://www.mtnbrook.k12.al.us/mbjh/s...Dowd/main.html

Funny, Britain helped the Arabs in the early 1900's to gain control over that whole area from the Ottoman Empire which I believe was the precursor to Turkey in some way.

The UN basically formed Israel as an Independent country.

[playa]

there is a big history lesson going on in here..

which one is right?

------------------
------------
Playa
icq#38147712
I ain't no NEWBIE
www.NoBSdialer.com

[Big Ben]

hmmmmm guys you sooo don't know what are you talking about. In 1948 UN has given it's proposition to divide the holy land into 2 countries 1/2 Israel and 1/2 Palestine. Well the Jews agreed to take their half but the Palestinians didn't wanted to satisfy with their half they wanted all and didn't wanted to compromise.

So On May 14, 1948, authorities in Israel declared the State of Israel an independent country. And the Arabs/Palestinians started a war with Israel in intention to destroy all Jews and to take all the land. Well during that independence war Israel won and conquered all of the holy land.

Now they want their country back. Israel didn't say no nor don't to continue to occupy them for many reasons. Israel agrees to give them their independent country. So the question now is "How their country going to look and on what territory?" In Kemp David Israeli President Barak puts his own political career on sake and agrees to give them 99% percent of their original territory and all the others rights they would never get from other president. But guess what for Palestinian president Arafat that's not enough he want's everything and chooses the use of force to achieve his goals and looses all the terrorists from all of the jails and gives them the right to prepare suicide bombers against Israel.

To sum the thing's up Israel wanted to compromise but Palestinians didn't. So the next time think again before you piss on the only democratic country in the Middle East that been Americas partner for many years.

[Gemini]

Hmm how old are you Ben? Just out of curiousity.