Why do people HATE outsourcing? - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

Intrigue · 09-26-2004, 10:44 PM

Hope this makes sense...

Honestly, i used to really hate outsourcers. None in particular (i've never personally worked with any),
But as a programmer, I was feeling what everyone bitches about (watching tons of jobs going to guys that could get 30 guys for 5 weeks for $2

) and it really kinda pissed me off. Why, i dunno, i somewhat felt insulted that i bust my ass as hard as i do, and 9 times outta ten, someone is going to go to someone like that.

I don't feel that way anymore, i've been noticing more and more people complaining about them (including people from this board), and I'm getting a bigger client base, a decent amount that are coming to me after bad experiances, and due to those experiances love my work even more. So as long as it doesn't come down to me going to Mickey D's and having to spend 30 minutes trying to figure out wtf 'sir

fries you

like meal with

your plz

' means, when i've already ordered the fries, or my doctor gets payed $2/hr (no thanks, med schools worth the extra $$

) i'm cool with it.

My clients know i don't work cheap, but i do good work, so things work out nicely

EDIT: 50 for $2/hr

Spunky · 09-26-2004, 10:45 PM

51 sweat shops

PenisFace · 09-26-2004, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FlyingIguana
you do realize the cost of living is much much less? they can have a house full of servants on that kind of salary.

Thats true, they still deserve to live like royalty for their talent though, just like many of the people here do.

I know a guy from India, and he said even though the cost of living is much cheaper, its still difficult to get by, even with a decent wage.

jade_dragon · 09-26-2004, 10:46 PM

actually when I talk about oursourcing I am talking abour real world business not so much design work. I have had much better prices with design from domestic workers than outsource. I will give you the name of the domestic designer but leave out the outsource companies that wanted to charge me more. The designer was Nick Papageorgio

Actually man.... yeah car manufacturing has left America haha, most of the plants left Detroit a while ago and its economy has suffered. There are some car plants still here in America.... they are mostly Japanese and European.

As far as government contol, do you really think they are not in control now? They allow you to do your business here, in exchange for living on their soil and protecting you from threats from outsiders as well as providing policing, preventing one company from cornering the market and raping you on their goods and services they take some of the money you made. In essence you rent space here in the US and the government is your landlord.

What I am saying is that rich businessmen are going to take money out of the American pool and put it in other countries, this is going to continue to happen because we have a "fuck you it's about me" attitude about any systems that are interconnected or not. The government is not communist, it is not going to subsidise and the more money you take away from it the harder it is going to clamp down to sustain the current way of life.

For outsourcing to work the way you are talking about they would HAVE to come in and control. They have to come in and set a lower cost of living, forcing businesses across the board to lower the price of their goods and services and also lowering taxes. It is an interconnected system like the pool example I am talking about, as outsourcing increases to companies that are not going to put money back into our economy the level of the "pool" here will decrease.

SpikeHeel · 09-26-2004, 11:32 PM

outsourcing sucks...outsourcing is definitely OUT!

macker · 09-26-2004, 11:40 PM

I think this thread represents both sides of the coin and attitudes towards outsourcing. Both arguments are equally valid, for their own reasons when placed in their correct contexts.

We have the business perspective which argues that outsourcing is yet another tool to be harnessed and when used correctly, can be used to empower businesses, increase margins, and thus giving businesses additional avenues to utilize these gains in the global marketplace. Taking advantage of tools that bring competitive advantage is the very thing that drives a capitalist marketplace and is what makes businesses grow stronger.

On the other side, we have those that are worried that outsourcing will result in the loss of jobs amongst those in the west. This as we all know, over time will have wider implications in terms of the ability of those nations to sustain an economy which will be of an adequate size to shape and direct global issues. However, I don?t think anybody can dispute that outsourcing has brought about increased competition. Competition DOES breed evolution? This competition will force us to develop better working methods and technologies that will once again balance things out? until this natural cycle returns.

I don?t think anybody can stop outsourcing, capitalism will see to that. There are already pools of knowledge in developing countries that are capable of competing with traditional providers in the respective industries.

If we don?t take advantage of this tool, others will. I believe the question we must ask ourselves is, are we going to be the ones profiting from it, or are we going to wait until the Chinese or other developing nations do?

Pleasurepays · 09-26-2004, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jade_dragon
You live in what's called a "trickle down economy" this means that money flows from the few who have many to the many who have less through the multiple purchases of the rich to the wages of the poor to produce the goods and perform the services to the rich.

When you outsource you effectively take that money out of the system and put it in another country that usually does not have people to return it.

Think of it as having a pool and a pump and fountain. You take water out of the pool and push it through the fountain and it looks pretty and goes back into the pool and recycles. Well if you take that hose supplying the fountain and divert some of the water to another pool you have less water in your pool..... your pool gets lower and lower as you do it. Remember Nixon removed us from the gold standard...... outsourcing is very destructive to the economy since it is the rich with more that are doing it.

you seem to understand very little about micro and macro economics. proof of this is the fact that you think the economy is a zero sum system. its not. economies grow 2-10% per year in the real world. in your world, they apparently don't.

massive profits, continued corporate and economic growth are hardly harmful to the economy.

2HousePlague · 09-27-2004, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK
One word for you: Equilibrium

Yes, of course. It's a nice theory.

But you don't think the insane xenophobia, jingoism, racism, and general lack of respect Americans have for people who happen to live in other countries will EVER abate enough to allow the US workforce to participate in a global labor economy?

It will ALWAYS be easier to HATE than to WORK.

And, so long as it's easier to become a member of a priveleged class in America (and by that I mean a member of an entrenched race-based class with the means to self-preserve by keeping "others" down and out), blue collar workers will never surmount the ideological hurdles that keep them from graduating high-school and keep them having babies they can't afford. So long as they have Wesley Snipes and Dre to hate and blame for their ills (looka the bad guy, breaking the rulez and getting paid), empoverished white America will remain as shackled by false ideas about who the ENEMY is as empoverished black America is for being thought the ENEMY.

What's happening in America is the widening of the rift between the haves and the have-nots.

When the dot-com bubble burst, the work pool was flooded with a shitload of people whose only qualification for white-collar employment was the memory of a six-figure income. Our economy did NOT fail to re-absorb them because their skills were no longer needed in the marketplace. It failed to re-absorb them because the economy decided that the "value" created by this type of worker was ILLUSORY. Hundreds of thousands who'd been livin' high on the tech-hog, were exposed for the unskilled impostors they truly were.

So, i'll sum it up:

1. Nobody who works at McDonalds goes to college and gets a cushy corporate job. The members of this quasi-slave labor class are more rigidly trapped there than at any other moment in US history.

2. The Children of Privelege are graduating college with NO skills, (for the buckling of academic standards under "leave-no-child-behind" bullshit GOP political pressures) and, what's worse, are coming into the labor force with a feeling of ENTITLEMENT to big salaries without ANY dues-paying.

3. A job going overseas DOES mean there is something wrong. It means our labor force has no high-value MIDDLE. On the one side, we have the unskilled and cheap, on the other side we have the unskilled and expensive.

IF WE HAD AMERICANS WHO C O U L D DO THOSE JOBS AND WERE W I L L I N G TO DO THEM AT A VALUE-YIELDING PRICE POINT, THERE WOULD BE NO OUTSOURCING.

J-

chaze · 09-27-2004, 12:47 AM

Trust is everything when working together, it's really hard to have it if you with the person everyday.

webmaster x · 09-27-2004, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 2HousePlague

IF WE HAD AMERICANS WHO C O U L D DO THOSE JOBS AND WERE W I L L I N G TO DO THEM AT A VALUE-YIELDING PRICE POINT, THERE WOULD BE NO OUTSOURCING.

J-

Wow. Sums it all up!

jade_dragon · 09-27-2004, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pleasurepays
you seem to understand very little about micro and macro economics. proof of this is the fact that you think the economy is a zero sum system. its not. economies grow 2-10% per year in the real world. in your world, they apparently don't.

massive profits, continued corporate and economic growth are hardly harmful to the economy.

Even if I did not understand micro and macro I do have logic and common sense. An economy growing by a margin as low as 2-10% has mostly to do with large corporate gains fueled with outsourcing and that potentially can have NOTHING to do with the people of our country asx a whole other than the elite who own the corporations.

If I have a large corporation and I use India for IT, Mexicans for lawn care, Japan for technology and Hong Kong for parts then I can make a pretty penny paying them as opposed to American programers, lawn care and local computer producers. I have a majority of my money going out of the country. Likewise my friend moves his plant out of the US and into Mexico for cheaper labor, my other corporation owners producing physical goods have also and the majority of the others use the same sources for labor and work as I do, what do you think is happening? Do you think we did this so we could lower the price we charge for our goods? I don't think so, we have a industry standard and the best way to make sure we make more money "competing" is to lower what is called production costs.

WE have effectively taken money out of our pool and put it into the pools of other countries for good and services. Then I sell those products to Americans and take money from their wages and then put that money back into the other countries to produce more to do the same thing. In the meantime more americans are born and as more and more people graduate from college they look for corporate jobs which my friends and I have given to foreigners so that we can line our pockets. I am making more profit as a business owner who is paying for cheaper labor and goods and also keeping my money in foreign banks and traveling a lot spending money in other countries. So when I am reporting how my business is doing we have effectively grown leaps and bounds as a corporation "YEAH ECONOMY IS GROWING" no my pockets are growing and so is the economy of countries I and my friends are pumping money into, meanwhile Americans here can not get a job and in a few years the masses will not be able to even afford some of the goods I am putting out unless I drop the price down or the government comes in and forces me, which is possible because it does not cost me as much to produce, that is if I am not greedy.

So macro economics are fine, 3rd world countries are making money now and coming up, micro on the other hand is dwindling. Common sense tells me if you flow from greater to lesser then greater lowers to become equal IF there is not to heavy a flow into lesser in which it becomes greater.

The guys in india I am paying money to are not traveling here, they are not buying ford mustangs, they are not buying shares of Coca-Cola, they are not eating at Wendys, they do not shop at Wal-Mart can you not see that? You just spend 60k in education but your kid can not get a corporate job because I do not want to take money out of my pocket to pay them for something someone in India can do. Outsourcing is now always going to be done by anyone who is not like Sam Walton and has a gun-ho "Americans for America" ideal and refuses to give jobs to outsourced countries no matter if it means less profit for them or not. Where do you think the money we owners of corporations (and yes I do own one) is coming from. Most of you can not grasp this because you do not work a 9-5 but bare with me. The money corps make come from products/services that you buy, that money usually comes from a 9-5 that you work at producing some good or service for another company in another or the same industry.

I am just saying do not try to sugar coat outsourcing like it is some magical equilizer, it will cause a decline in the amount of jobs here in America, it will be a long time between when there are lay offs here because of it and when the government will step in and there are reforms of cost of living drops in America so that people forced to take lower wages to compete will be able to live at what we here call a decent level of living. How do you think they will do that? Do you think they will lower taxes? And what if they do, that means lower levels of funding for schools and roads, health care, defense etc. Do you think that the greedy politicians are going to take pay cuts, do you think they will feel sorry for the families out there and spend all the money on what they say they will. Maybe in your idealistic world, but in mine the mentality of the few who are in power who believe in making money for themselves with a fuck the many and the future mentalities are in control.

My respect to those who do it and admit they do it and can say that they do not give a shit, they want money. But for all the people out there who know good and damn well the effects of it and want to lie to themselves about the long term effects all I can do is shake my head and chuckle.

tranza · 09-27-2004, 10:25 AM

I don't hate outsoursing.

And I won't be reading that long ass article you posted.

My country has cheap work force.

Raven · 09-27-2004, 10:56 AM

Quote:

IF WE HAD AMERICANS WHO C O U L D DO THOSE JOBS AND WERE W I L L I N G TO DO THEM AT A VALUE-YIELDING PRICE POINT, THERE WOULD BE NO OUTSOURCING.

There are plenty of Americans who can and will do those jobs.....we downsized them.

Pleasurepays · 09-27-2004, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jade_dragon
Even if I did not understand micro and macro I do have logic and common sense. An economy growing by a margin as low as 2-10% has mostly to do with large corporate gains fueled with outsourcing and that potentially can have NOTHING to do with the people of our country asx a whole other than the elite who own the corporations.

i am not going to address everything since you admittedly do not know what you are talking about.

i just want to point out that "outsourcing" has almost no affect on the GDP and economic growth. maybe you should take a cursory look at all the business sectors and what their contribution is to the economy before you try to argue against something you don't understand and argue against economics which you don't understand.

It is all nothing new. Your Nikes are made in China, your Levis are made in Taiwan, your keyboard was made in the Philippines etc. Almost everything you own was made outside the US. Now you are struggling to make an argument that it matters who offers customer support or who writes your code. It doesn't.

It is a behavior that is vital to economic growth and its been going on long before you were born and will continue long after.

Your arguments are more communist in nature and ignore the fact that "those fat cats" who make money are also the ones creating jobs and investing in the economy.

The harder you try to intervene in a free market and "make things fair" for everyone... the more you will fuck it up.

BRISK · 09-27-2004, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jade_dragon
Even if I did not understand micro and macro I do have logic and common sense. An economy growing by a margin as low as 2-10% has mostly to do with large corporate gains fueled with outsourcing and that potentially can have NOTHING to do with the people of our country asx a whole other than the elite who own the corporations.

You don't have to be "elite" to own a corporation. There are these things called public stock exchanges now. It's amazing, anybody can by a share in the companies that are listed on these stock exchanges.

loverboy · 09-27-2004, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wdsguy
because the quality of the work sux

we are talking "outsourcing" in general here. when you talk about outsourcing, what comes into my mind is Call Center business which the Phillipines is now the Call Center Hub in the world.

Neither countries like India and China can compete with such English speaking skills of the Filipinos.

BRISK · 09-27-2004, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jade_dragon
Outsourcing is now always going to be done by anyone who is not like Sam Walton and has a gun-ho "Americans for America" ideal and refuses to give jobs to outsourced countries no matter if it means less profit for them or not.

Wal-Mart is probably the largest purchaser of outsourced products in the world. How much of the stuff in Wal-Mart do you think is made in America? How much is China?

Quote:

Wal-Mart, which in the late 1980s and early 1990s trumpeted its claim to "Buy American," has doubled its imports from China in the past five years alone, buying some $12 billion in merchandise in 2002. That's nearly 10% of all Chinese exports to the United States.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

loverboy · 09-27-2004, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor Dre
It's always a balance ... your economy cannot be driven from your own country alone ...

one intelligent answer i will surely agree with

BRISK · 09-27-2004, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pleasurepays
It is all nothing new. Your Nikes are made in China, your Levis are made in Taiwan, your keyboard was made in the Philippines etc. Almost everything you own was made outside the US. Now you are struggling to make an argument that it matters who offers customer support or who writes your code. It doesn't.

It is a behavior that is vital to economic growth and its been going on long before you were born and will continue long after.

Your arguments are more communist in nature and ignore the fact that "those fat cats" who make money are also the ones creating jobs and investing in the economy.

The harder you try to intervene in a free market and "make things fair" for everyone... the more you will fuck it up.

loverboy · 09-27-2004, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by stocktrader23
It's real fucking simple. 100 lazy fucknuts for employees cost say 2 million a year. 100 outsourced employees working longer hours costs $400,000. I think any business would take the 1.6 million in savings.

And for those of you saying the quality sucks, you have no idea.

true, and outsourcing has made impact to a number of multi-Billion dollar companies especially in the filled of Call Center Business. don't blame the 3rd world countries if they ever advanced their technologies and level up their skills with some lazy workers.

Inorder to increase your productivity, you need to have hard working laborers who doens't complain too much on the work given.

loverboy · 09-27-2004, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by {fusion}
1. outsourcing companies steal your ideas
2. they are overpriced normally as they are run by usa companies who markup a silly amount of money
3. english standard is poor, so mistakes happen alot.

thats the main 3.

an example is I used to use Dell all the time, they then moved there support to india. now you call they dont have a fucking clue what your talking about and cant understand you very well, it makes there support shit, which is the most important part of a company. now longer use dell for this reason.

Price is not an issue when you want a great image.

Maybe in 5 years the standard will improve but for now i think people prefer to pay extra for quality.

I recently learned from a close Friend on mine who is currently working in a Call center Firm that Dell has outsourced some of their Telemarketing/Support related department in the Philippines after that incident of complaints originating from Indian support people.

piker · 09-27-2004, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spunky1
Bla Bla Bla...too long...because they pay the workers 2 bucks a day

People like you need not enter your

, if you are too lazy to read and educate yourself.. do everyone including yourself a favor.. and stfu...

Thanks

piker · 09-27-2004, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jade_dragon
Even if I did not understand micro and macro I do have logic and common sense. An economy growing by a margin as low as 2-10% has mostly to do with large corporate gains fueled with outsourcing and that potentially can have NOTHING to do with the people of our country asx a whole other than the elite who own the corporations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You don't have to be "elite" to own a corporation. There are these things called public stock exchanges now. It's amazing, anybody can by a share in the companies that are listed on these stock exchanges.

Apparently, he's even missing logic and commen sense along with his education...

loverboy · 09-27-2004, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 2HousePlague

IF WE HAD AMERICANS WHO C O U L D DO THOSE JOBS AND WERE W I L L I N G TO DO THEM AT A VALUE-YIELDING PRICE POINT, THERE WOULD BE NO OUTSOURCING.

J-

piker · 09-27-2004, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jade_dragon

Actually man.... yeah car manufacturing has left America haha, most of the plants left Detroit a while ago and its economy has suffered. There are some car plants still here in America.... they are mostly Japanese and European.

Anyone that lives or has lived in Michigan that has neighbors that work for Ford or GM know exactly why the plants are leaving. I blame unions mostly. I know people that get paid 20-30 bucks an hour to work 15 minutes out of an hour... The rest of the time they nap... And unfortunatly this isnt the exception it is more the norm...

Not to mention, the foreign firms developed more efficent production and shipping methods... While we sat still.. Now we are behind and asking wtf can we do? Can my government save me?

Anyways thats just my

BRISK · 09-27-2004, 12:04 PM

Something I find interesting is that anti-outsourcing people seem to think that outsourcing is a new thing, like some new trend that has been developed in the last few years.

Outsourcing is just another word for importing.

A company that outsources its programming to India is no different than a person who buys a Toyota that was made in Japan.

When you go to the GAP and buy some clothes, guess what? You're supporting outsourcing! Probably 99% of the clothes aren't made in your country.

The point is this: outsourcing (importing goods/services) is not new. So the argument that it is going to destroy the economy is rather weak.

jade_dragon · 09-27-2004, 12:38 PM

First of all about my education, it was in medicine not economics so the little crack about my eduction is unbased but of course you are just mouthing off behind a keyboard so continue, just thought you might want to know. I went into computers later and was smart enough to realize the bubble had popped before I spent time and money getting a degree in that like so many other people who flocked to it trying to be the next bill gates. Which is one of my points, I now know more than a few people who have lost their jobs to outsourcing and I am sure I know more and more who will never even get a job because of it. Does that bother me? Personally not at all, their fault for picking such a super saturated and easily outsourced feild, but the point still remains.

Want to see some logic in action?

Brisk: The point is this: outsourcing (importing goods/services) is not new. So the argument that it is going to destroy the economy is rather weak.

jade_dragon: Pollution is not new, so are you saying it is not destroying the environment? Drugs are not new at all but as more and more potent ones become available do they not have an impact on society? But I guess I have no logic right? The ideal that a problem or destructive thing has been around and so do not worry about it "sinking ship mentality" is EXACTLY what I was talking about.

My macro/micro comment was sarcasm, I run both a very small business and a larger conglomorate, I am starting a non profit org for buisinessmen under 25 and already have attended many conventions having to do with business and economics. So it is not like I made this up, these are all things that have been shown to me with nice over priced graphs, charts and powerpoint presentations. Even those who were pro-outsourcing basically said make the money and let the government worry about taking care of the people.

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK
Something I find interesting is that anti-outsourcing people seem to think that outsourcing is a new thing, like some new trend that has been developed in the last few years.

Outsourcing is just another word for importing.

A company that outsources its programming to India is no different than a person who buys a Toyota that was made in Japan.

When you go to the GAP and buy some clothes, guess what? You're supporting outsourcing! Probably 99% of the clothes aren't made in your country.

The point is this: outsourcing (importing goods/services) is not new. So the argument that it is going to destroy the economy is rather weak.

Importing is the purchase of goods from another country. Outsourcing is the production of goods or services from an outside source. The idea is to lower sweat equity either through the use of others besides yourself lowering profit but decreasing the amount of personal work or to reduce the amount of workers on payroll in a hopes at lowering production cost through a cut in labor. Importing is a part of outsourcing, outsourcing is not importing.

When I buy a car that is made in Japan... well first of all those cars have been produced in the United States since the late 80's, but I will play along with your argument, IF the cars had really been produced in Japan, I still have the dealerships here that have american workers, I still have american shops that work on them. As a matter of fact I own a company that does such. the Japanese companies did this because it is cheaper and more efficient to have plants here since America consumes so many of their products, they effectively began to subsidise for the detroit iron companies who moved their companies across the border.

But since you say you know so much more than I do, answer this. If more and more people outsource what happens to your educated and uneducated workers here? What happens when you build up the economies of countries outside of your borders? What happens when Jose' now wants just as much as Ryan used to because they notice what has happened? Did you look to the future or are you living in the here and now. You guys will be the first to complain about all the homeless and the unemployeed, telling them to go get a job. Stop looking at the thing on paper and start looking at human nature which is probably hard for anyone who makes money solely here on the net. I am a capitalist not a communist I just happen to be a little more civic minded than most corporate owners. As you give more and more jobs to other countries you will demoralize and dehabilitate workers here in the U.S. it will continue this way till your outsourced countries become larger and larger, wake up and decide to up the price on you. Then I suppose we will then start paying our own workers shit wages after the government comes in and subsidises or lowers the price of living and we rebuild the working force here. I am not talking about in 2-5 years I am talking about after I am gone, but I guess I shouldn't care right? Just make my money.

Pleasurepays · 09-27-2004, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jade_dragon
First of all about my education, it was in medicine not economics so the little crack about my eduction is unbased but of course you are just mouthing off behind a keyboard so continue, just thought you might want to know. I went into computers later and was smart enough to realize the bubble had popped before I spent time and money getting a degree in that like so many other people who flocked to it trying to be the next bill gates. Which is one of my points, I now know more than a few people who have lost their jobs to outsourcing and I am sure I know more and more who will never even get a job because of it. Does that bother me? Personally not at all, their fault for picking such a super saturated and easily outsourced feild, but the point still remains.

Want to see some logic in action?

Brisk: The point is this: outsourcing (importing goods/services) is not new. So the argument that it is going to destroy the economy is rather weak.

jade_dragon: Pollution is not new, so are you saying it is not destroying the environment? Drugs are not new at all but as more and more potent ones become available do they not have an impact on society? But I guess I have no logic right? The ideal that a problem or destructive thing has been around and so do not worry about it "sinking ship mentality" is EXACTLY what I was talking about.

My macro/micro comment was sarcasm, I run both a very small business and a larger conglomorate, I am starting a non profit org for buisinessmen under 25 and already have attended many conventions having to do with business and economics. So it is not like I made this up, these are all things that have been shown to me with nice over priced graphs, charts and powerpoint presentations. Even those who were pro-outsourcing basically said make the money and let the government worry about taking care of the people.

Importing is the purchase of goods from another country. Outsourcing is the production of goods or services from an outside source. The idea is to lower sweat equity either through the use of others besides yourself lowering profit but decreasing the amount of personal work or to reduce the amount of workers on payroll in a hopes at lowering production cost through a cut in labor. Importing is a part of outsourcing, outsourcing is not importing.

When I buy a car that is made in Japan... well first of all those cars have been produced in the United States since the late 80's, but I will play along with your argument, IF the cars had really been produced in Japan, I still have the dealerships here that have american workers, I still have american shops that work on them. As a matter of fact I own a company that does such. the Japanese companies did this because it is cheaper and more efficient to have plants here since America consumes so many of their products, they effectively began to subsidise for the detroit iron companies who moved their companies across the border.

But since you say you know so much more than I do, answer this. If more and more people outsource what happens to your educated and uneducated workers here? What happens when you build up the economies of countries outside of your borders? What happens when Jose' now wants just as much as Ryan used to because they notice what has happened? Did you look to the future or are you living in the here and now. You guys will be the first to complain about all the homeless and the unemployeed, telling them to go get a job. Stop looking at the thing on paper and start looking at human nature which is probably hard for anyone who makes money solely here on the net. I am a capitalist not a communist I just happen to be a little more civic minded than most corporate owners. As you give more and more jobs to other countries you will demoralize and dehabilitate workers here in the U.S. it will continue this way till your outsourced countries become larger and larger, wake up and decide to up the price on you. Then I suppose we will then start paying our own workers shit wages after the government comes in and subsidises or lowers the price of living and we rebuild the working force here. I am not talking about in 2-5 years I am talking about after I am gone, but I guess I shouldn't care right? Just make my money.

i just quoted you to enjoy the irony of the fact that people will now not read it twice.

jade_dragon · 09-27-2004, 12:51 PM

Oh and I never said I was looking for equality in countries across the board, on the contrary and maybe it makes me a bad person but I worry about my home, then my neighbors, then state, region and country before I worry about the rest of the world. I know we are all interconnected and that is beautiful, but I tend to worry about producing and keeping a job for the people down the street than putting food on the table of someone in another country.

Can you tell me why a 3rd world country is a 3rd world country and why other countries are stronger? Do you think those before us wished to have it that way or did they just fail to see it the way you guys did.

Tell me this, why can't corporations just start paying the same wages they do to foreign countries to people here? I do understand the points you have made, they are nothing new but as you have increases in unemployment one of the feasable ways to deal with this is to decrease the amount of work going to foreign countries. By the way I am a person who thinks that it is destructive but because of my own choices in life and the position I have put myself in through education and hard work I am outside the worry of being outsourced, I also do lots of business with foreign companies including those in Germany, China, Hong Kong and Japan, if I could hire a bunch of mexicans to work in my shops I would do so and pay them a pretty fair wage. I know what I do and I am ok with that, but the fact still remains I know what I am doing and I am ok with it.

jade_dragon · 09-27-2004, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pleasurepays
i just quoted you to enjoy the irony of the fact that people will now not read it twice.

lol good one

jade_dragon · 09-27-2004, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK
Wal-Mart is probably the largest purchaser of outsourced products in the world. How much of the stuff in Wal-Mart do you think is made in America? How much is China?

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

many changes were made after the death of Sam, pick up his book and read it. Trust me you all have pegged me very wrong. I asked you lots of questions and most of the answers were pretty poor. I am pro corporation, very much so as is my partner. There are a few canadians who will not even talk to me anymore because they think I am "evil" and "destructive" to the world. I purposidly opened businesses dealing with labor so that I could provide jobs and exploit the fact that skilled laborers can pretty much set any price they want on goods and services because the big flock was to get educated (this goes in cycles). So do not think I am some liberal commy pinko tree hugger. I just like playing devil's advocate sometimes.

BRISK · 09-27-2004, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jade_dragon

Want to see some logic in action?

Brisk: The point is this: outsourcing (importing goods/services) is not new. So the argument that it is going to destroy the economy is rather weak.

jade_dragon: Pollution is not new, so are you saying it is not destroying the environment? Drugs are not new at all but as more and more potent ones become available do they not have an impact on society?

If pollution and drugs were ECONOMIC issues, you might be able to relate them with outsourcing. Your argument is incredibly flawed.

GatorB · 09-27-2004, 01:02 PM

I hate it because if I want to talk to somebody about an issue now I get someone in INDIA that can hardly speak or understand english. How is that "customer service"? Indian are to be used for making shoes and soccer balls for 15¢ an hour not taking phone calls.

BRISK · 09-27-2004, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jade_dragon
Importing is the purchase of goods from another country. Outsourcing is the production of goods or services from an outside source. Importing is a part of outsourcing, outsourcing is not importing.

Outsourcing = importing

BRISK · 09-27-2004, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jade_dragon
many changes were made after the death of Sam, pick up his book and read it.

I have, and unless you can prove that Wal-Mart employs LESS Americans today than it did when Sam Walton ran the company. Your argument is flawed.

jade_dragon · 09-27-2004, 01:19 PM

keep reaching man, keep reaching. Never said wal-mart decreased the amounts of people they employeed as a matter of fact they have done a wonderful job of decreasing the amount of mom and pop stores and family run companies in areas they go into. Mom and pop only employ maybe their sons and daughters perhaps 1-2 other people. Wal-Mart comes in and provides way more goods and services, mom and pop can always work for Wal-Mart though

.

The companies that Wal-Mart buys from and sells has drastically changed after the death of Sam as well as many of the policies concerning how the company is run. It has become a corporate monster and that is A. ok with me because it means I can get cheaper goods and people can get jobs. Once again you are pegging me all wrong here.

GatorB · 09-27-2004, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK
I have, and unless you can prove that Wal-Mart employs LESS Americans today than it did when Sam Walton ran the company. Your argument is flawed.

WTF does that have to do with anything. Back when Sam ran Wal-Mart it was BUY AMERICAN. Go to wal-mart now and see how much American stuff you can buy. Wal-Mart pays slave wages and screws employees PERIOD.

Who the fuck are you to know didly squat about wal-mart.

jade_dragon · 09-27-2004, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK
If pollution and drugs were ECONOMIC issues, you might be able to relate them with outsourcing. Your argument is incredibly flawed.

no they have a tie in to each other as a fact that they are socio/economic issues. The argument is not flawed it was outside of your anylitical thinking.

jade_dragon · 09-27-2004, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GatorB
WTF does that have to do with anything. Back when Sam ran Wal-Mart it was BUY AMERICAN. Go to wal-mart now and see how much American stuff you can buy. Wal-Mart pays slave wages and screws employees PERIOD.

Who the fuck are you to know didly squat about wal-mart.

One of you thinks anylitically, seems someone found YOUR argument flawwed Brisk......

BRISK · 09-27-2004, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jade_dragon
keep reaching man, keep reaching. Never said wal-mart decreased the amounts of people they employeed as a matter of fact they have done a wonderful job of decreasing the amount of mom and pop stores and family run companies in areas they go into. Mom and pop only employ maybe their sons and daughters perhaps 1-2 other people. Wal-Mart comes in and provides way more goods and services, mom and pop can always work for Wal-Mart though .

The companies that Wal-Mart buys from and sells has drastically changed after the death of Sam as well as many of the policies concerning how the company is run. It has become a corporate monster and that is A. ok with me because it means I can get cheaper goods and people can get jobs. Once again you are pegging me all wrong here.

So you admit that even though Wal-Mart is probably the largest purchaser or imported goods, it has INCREASED employment over the years?

BRISK · 09-27-2004, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GatorB
WTF does that have to do with anything. Back when Sam ran Wal-Mart it was BUY AMERICAN. Go to wal-mart now and see how much American stuff you can buy. Wal-Mart pays slave wages and screws employees PERIOD.

Who the fuck are you to know didly squat about wal-mart.

Have you read any of this thread?

Wal-Mart employs MORE Americans today than it did when it had the policy of "Buy American"

jade_dragon · 09-27-2004, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK
So you admit that even though Wal-Mart is probably the largest purchaser or imported goods, it has INCREASED employment over the years?

All goods that are Sam's Choice are still produced by an American company, 95% of parts going into them are produced by an American company.

Wal-Mart is a reseller, a distributor if you will, not a producer, other than their store brand that is as I said AMERICAN. Brisk your argument is weakening buddy.

BRISK · 09-27-2004, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jade_dragon
no they have a tie in to each other as a fact that they are socio/economic issues. The argument is not flawed it was outside of your anylitical thinking.

They're not good comparisons at all, you're reaching.

On a side note, your posts are getting more childish

"it was outside of your anylitical thinking"

You're getting desperate to prove your point, so you resort to name calling. Sad.

BRISK · 09-27-2004, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jade_dragon
One of you thinks anylitically, seems someone found YOUR argument flawwed Brisk......

and others have found your argument flawed. your point?

BRISK · 09-27-2004, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jade_dragon
All goods that are Sam's Choice are still produced by an American company, 95% of parts going into them are produced by an American company.

Wal-Mart is a reseller, a distributor if you will, not a producer, other than their store brand that is as I said AMERICAN. Brisk your argument is weakening buddy.

so now resellers and distributors don't count

I see

very convenient

BRISK · 09-27-2004, 01:40 PM

jade_dragon, what exactly is your point? You're argument is all over the place

You think outsourcing is bad for the economy, but as a company owner you support it?

Is that your point?

Pleasurepays · 09-27-2004, 01:46 PM

Notice To All Posters.

Starting in 30 minutes, this thread will be outsourced to some wonderful posters in Romania and Czech Republic. They post twice as much at half the cost which of course gives you more free time to run your business.

Thank You For Your Attention

Now please either go work so you create more US Jobs or continue your Marxist/Leninist Studies about Capitalism leading to Imperialism and the coming Peoples Revolution.

jade_dragon · 09-27-2004, 01:49 PM

My point is anything that was in the earlier stuff was me playing devil's advocate and was intelligent asking of questions, many of which you skipped over just to prove your point. I am a capitalist and I own corporations. Nothing I said was childish and I made points on both sides of the argument. I reach for nothing because I wish to prove nothing. Good debate strenghtens the mind.

My whole thing with Wal-mart proved you wrong, it was a very pro american only company and now that corporate power took over most of its stuff is now not american only, you were proven wrong about your knowledge of Wal-Mart and its founding father's ideals of what he wanted his company to be. Once again my argument about outsourcing was about more than a bunch of Indians answering phones, it was the mass move of jobs by corporation owners to evade taxes and also use cheap, damn near slave labor to line their pockets, you are still worried about IT.

I can admit when someone counters my point and not get mad, sign of being intelligent and adult, can you say the same? Most of all when proven wrong by concrete evidence I am the first to say so.... Don't take everything so person and never think you know everything. When debating always admit when you are wrong, never attack and always give props to a good point even if it is a counter to your argument.

Outsourcing is not new, it has been around and will continue to be around and it will grow, it is the growth that is the issue, not the thing itself. Anything in moderation is fine to much of a good thing is destructive. There is no one to take responsibility for that other than the people who do it. Most of us are very greedy and very here and now. I just brought up counter points and arguments, calm yourself.

If you had read what I typed instead of trying to immediately flame and seem smarter than other people you would have noticed I made points about how corporations that remain inside the U.S. borders create jobs, the ones that are the most pro-american import but do not outsource. Once again importing is a form of outsourcing, outsourcing is not just importing

BRISK · 09-27-2004, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jade_dragon
My whole thing with Wal-mart proved you wrong, it was a very pro american only company and now that corporate power took over most of its stuff is now not american only, you were proven wrong about your knowledge of Wal-Mart and its founding father's ideals of what he wanted his company to be.

How was I proven wrong about what Sam Walton wanted the company to be?

jade_dragon · 09-27-2004, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK
jade_dragon, what exactly is your point? You're argument is all over the place

You think outsourcing is bad for the economy, but as a company owner you support it?

Is that your point?

Devil's advocate. The original post was why do people hate it, I answered that. Do I do it, not as much as many yet I know I am a part of the problem if I do it at all. Am I ok with that, indeed I am. Some people are meant to be leaders and suceed, others are meant to work for people that are in higher positions and be a follower, this is their choice for allowing the system to stunt their growth. I overcame hardships and pushed myself to be the person I am today. I know how the problem can be rectified if this was a magical world, I know people who are effected by it, I know people who do it to effect others. Why is it that people think they have to be 100% pro or 100% con, when did the world become so black and white?

09-26-2004, 10:44 PM	#51
Intrigue Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ohio, US Posts: 662	Hope this makes sense... Honestly, i used to really hate outsourcers. None in particular (i've never personally worked with any), But as a programmer, I was feeling what everyone bitches about (watching tons of jobs going to guys that could get 30 guys for 5 weeks for $2 ) and it really kinda pissed me off. Why, i dunno, i somewhat felt insulted that i bust my ass as hard as i do, and 9 times outta ten, someone is going to go to someone like that. I don't feel that way anymore, i've been noticing more and more people complaining about them (including people from this board), and I'm getting a bigger client base, a decent amount that are coming to me after bad experiances, and due to those experiances love my work even more. So as long as it doesn't come down to me going to Mickey D's and having to spend 30 minutes trying to figure out wtf 'sir fries you like meal with your plz ' means, when i've already ordered the fries, or my doctor gets payed $2/hr (no thanks, med schools worth the extra $$ ) i'm cool with it. My clients know i don't work cheap, but i do good work, so things work out nicely EDIT: 50 for $2/hr Last edited by Intrigue; 09-26-2004 at 10:45 PM..

09-26-2004, 10:45 PM	#52
Spunky I need a beer Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ♠ Toiletville ♠ Posts: 133,944	51 sweat shops __________________ *YOUR INFORMATION HERE*

09-26-2004, 10:46 PM	#54
jade_dragon Confirmed User Join Date: May 2004 Location: NEW ORLEANS/Baton Rouge BABY! Posts: 1,737	actually when I talk about oursourcing I am talking abour real world business not so much design work. I have had much better prices with design from domestic workers than outsource. I will give you the name of the domestic designer but leave out the outsource companies that wanted to charge me more. The designer was Nick Papageorgio Actually man.... yeah car manufacturing has left America haha, most of the plants left Detroit a while ago and its economy has suffered. There are some car plants still here in America.... they are mostly Japanese and European. As far as government contol, do you really think they are not in control now? They allow you to do your business here, in exchange for living on their soil and protecting you from threats from outsiders as well as providing policing, preventing one company from cornering the market and raping you on their goods and services they take some of the money you made. In essence you rent space here in the US and the government is your landlord. What I am saying is that rich businessmen are going to take money out of the American pool and put it in other countries, this is going to continue to happen because we have a "fuck you it's about me" attitude about any systems that are interconnected or not. The government is not communist, it is not going to subsidise and the more money you take away from it the harder it is going to clamp down to sustain the current way of life. For outsourcing to work the way you are talking about they would HAVE to come in and control. They have to come in and set a lower cost of living, forcing businesses across the board to lower the price of their goods and services and also lowering taxes. It is an interconnected system like the pool example I am talking about, as outsourcing increases to companies that are not going to put money back into our economy the level of the "pool" here will decrease. __________________ even ADULTS need TOYS icq: 3 6 3 2 6 6 6 7 \| aim: conglomorateman open for business, affiliates and friendships

09-26-2004, 11:32 PM	#55
SpikeHeel Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Venus Posts: 1,531	outsourcing sucks...outsourcing is definitely OUT! __________________ 100% exclusive fetish content - 60% recurring CCBill program No pop-ups – No traffic leaks – No cross sells – Hosted galleries – Promo content - Free Hosting - ICQ: 228585136

09-26-2004, 11:40 PM	#56
macker Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: www.FetishAssets.com Posts: 2,161	I think this thread represents both sides of the coin and attitudes towards outsourcing. Both arguments are equally valid, for their own reasons when placed in their correct contexts. We have the business perspective which argues that outsourcing is yet another tool to be harnessed and when used correctly, can be used to empower businesses, increase margins, and thus giving businesses additional avenues to utilize these gains in the global marketplace. Taking advantage of tools that bring competitive advantage is the very thing that drives a capitalist marketplace and is what makes businesses grow stronger. On the other side, we have those that are worried that outsourcing will result in the loss of jobs amongst those in the west. This as we all know, over time will have wider implications in terms of the ability of those nations to sustain an economy which will be of an adequate size to shape and direct global issues. However, I don?t think anybody can dispute that outsourcing has brought about increased competition. Competition DOES breed evolution? This competition will force us to develop better working methods and technologies that will once again balance things out? until this natural cycle returns. I don?t think anybody can stop outsourcing, capitalism will see to that. There are already pools of knowledge in developing countries that are capable of competing with traditional providers in the respective industries. If we don?t take advantage of this tool, others will. I believe the question we must ask ourselves is, are we going to be the ones profiting from it, or are we going to wait until the Chinese or other developing nations do? __________________ ForcedMen \| AsianViolation \| WorkMyCock \| TickleAsian \| MasturbationInstructors \| AssCleaners \| TickleTorment \| Fetish4Download (VOD) \| PantyhosePlaza \| FemaleDomination mick[at]fetishassets.com \| ICQ: 395-117

09-27-2004, 12:47 AM	#59
chaze Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 9,752	Trust is everything when working together, it's really hard to have it if you with the person everyday.

09-27-2004, 10:25 AM	#62
tranza ICQ: 197-556-237 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: BRASIL !!! Posts: 57,559	I don't hate outsoursing. And I won't be reading that long ass article you posted. My country has cheap work force. __________________ I'm just a newbie.

09-27-2004, 12:04 PM	#76
BRISK Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,240	Something I find interesting is that anti-outsourcing people seem to think that outsourcing is a new thing, like some new trend that has been developed in the last few years. Outsourcing is just another word for importing. A company that outsources its programming to India is no different than a person who buys a Toyota that was made in Japan. When you go to the GAP and buy some clothes, guess what? You're supporting outsourcing! Probably 99% of the clothes aren't made in your country. The point is this: outsourcing (importing goods/services) is not new. So the argument that it is going to destroy the economy is rather weak. __________________ I post on GFY so that when people ask me what I do, I can tell them that I work with the mentally retarded.

09-27-2004, 12:51 PM	#79
jade_dragon Confirmed User Join Date: May 2004 Location: NEW ORLEANS/Baton Rouge BABY! Posts: 1,737	Oh and I never said I was looking for equality in countries across the board, on the contrary and maybe it makes me a bad person but I worry about my home, then my neighbors, then state, region and country before I worry about the rest of the world. I know we are all interconnected and that is beautiful, but I tend to worry about producing and keeping a job for the people down the street than putting food on the table of someone in another country. Can you tell me why a 3rd world country is a 3rd world country and why other countries are stronger? Do you think those before us wished to have it that way or did they just fail to see it the way you guys did. Tell me this, why can't corporations just start paying the same wages they do to foreign countries to people here? I do understand the points you have made, they are nothing new but as you have increases in unemployment one of the feasable ways to deal with this is to decrease the amount of work going to foreign countries. By the way I am a person who thinks that it is destructive but because of my own choices in life and the position I have put myself in through education and hard work I am outside the worry of being outsourced, I also do lots of business with foreign companies including those in Germany, China, Hong Kong and Japan, if I could hire a bunch of mexicans to work in my shops I would do so and pay them a pretty fair wage. I know what I do and I am ok with that, but the fact still remains I know what I am doing and I am ok with it. __________________ even ADULTS need TOYS icq: 3 6 3 2 6 6 6 7 \| aim: conglomorateman open for business, affiliates and friendships

09-27-2004, 01:02 PM	#83
GatorB The Demon & 12clicks Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: SallyRand is a FAGGOT Posts: 18,208	I hate it because if I want to talk to somebody about an issue now I get someone in INDIA that can hardly speak or understand english. How is that "customer service"? Indian are to be used for making shoes and soccer balls for 15¢ an hour not taking phone calls.

09-27-2004, 01:19 PM	#86
jade_dragon Confirmed User Join Date: May 2004 Location: NEW ORLEANS/Baton Rouge BABY! Posts: 1,737	keep reaching man, keep reaching. Never said wal-mart decreased the amounts of people they employeed as a matter of fact they have done a wonderful job of decreasing the amount of mom and pop stores and family run companies in areas they go into. Mom and pop only employ maybe their sons and daughters perhaps 1-2 other people. Wal-Mart comes in and provides way more goods and services, mom and pop can always work for Wal-Mart though . The companies that Wal-Mart buys from and sells has drastically changed after the death of Sam as well as many of the policies concerning how the company is run. It has become a corporate monster and that is A. ok with me because it means I can get cheaper goods and people can get jobs. Once again you are pegging me all wrong here. __________________ even ADULTS need TOYS icq: 3 6 3 2 6 6 6 7 \| aim: conglomorateman open for business, affiliates and friendships

09-27-2004, 01:40 PM	#96
BRISK Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,240	jade_dragon, what exactly is your point? You're argument is all over the place You think outsourcing is bad for the economy, but as a company owner you support it? Is that your point? __________________ I post on GFY so that when people ask me what I do, I can tell them that I work with the mentally retarded.

09-27-2004, 01:46 PM	#97
Pleasurepays BANNED - SUPPORTING TUBES Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I live in a pile of boogers Posts: 11,913	Notice To All Posters. Starting in 30 minutes, this thread will be outsourced to some wonderful posters in Romania and Czech Republic. They post twice as much at half the cost which of course gives you more free time to run your business. Thank You For Your Attention Now please either go work so you create more US Jobs or continue your Marxist/Leninist Studies about Capitalism leading to Imperialism and the coming Peoples Revolution.

09-27-2004, 01:49 PM	#98
jade_dragon Confirmed User Join Date: May 2004 Location: NEW ORLEANS/Baton Rouge BABY! Posts: 1,737	My point is anything that was in the earlier stuff was me playing devil's advocate and was intelligent asking of questions, many of which you skipped over just to prove your point. I am a capitalist and I own corporations. Nothing I said was childish and I made points on both sides of the argument. I reach for nothing because I wish to prove nothing. Good debate strenghtens the mind. My whole thing with Wal-mart proved you wrong, it was a very pro american only company and now that corporate power took over most of its stuff is now not american only, you were proven wrong about your knowledge of Wal-Mart and its founding father's ideals of what he wanted his company to be. Once again my argument about outsourcing was about more than a bunch of Indians answering phones, it was the mass move of jobs by corporation owners to evade taxes and also use cheap, damn near slave labor to line their pockets, you are still worried about IT. I can admit when someone counters my point and not get mad, sign of being intelligent and adult, can you say the same? Most of all when proven wrong by concrete evidence I am the first to say so.... Don't take everything so person and never think you know everything. When debating always admit when you are wrong, never attack and always give props to a good point even if it is a counter to your argument. Outsourcing is not new, it has been around and will continue to be around and it will grow, it is the growth that is the issue, not the thing itself. Anything in moderation is fine to much of a good thing is destructive. There is no one to take responsibility for that other than the people who do it. Most of us are very greedy and very here and now. I just brought up counter points and arguments, calm yourself. If you had read what I typed instead of trying to immediately flame and seem smarter than other people you would have noticed I made points about how corporations that remain inside the U.S. borders create jobs, the ones that are the most pro-american import but do not outsource. Once again importing is a form of outsourcing, outsourcing is not just importing __________________ even ADULTS need TOYS icq: 3 6 3 2 6 6 6 7 \| aim: conglomorateman open for business, affiliates and friendships