BBC interview with US Marine - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

Webby · 09-27-2004, 11:37 PM

theKing:

Quote:

The "insurgents" are composed of foreign fighters...former baathists (many of which will be put on trial when if they are captured)...follwers of a couple of Ayatollas (that are attempting a power grab)...loyalists to Saddam/Iraq...and those who hate Americans...for whatever their individual reasons. The estimated number of "insurgents" range from 10,000-50,000...which represents a very small number compared to the 27,000,000 population.

If you think that is a balanced assessment - ya are miles out of line.

What do you think guys do when their families have been blown to bits? Say "shit happens" and forget it?

I'm sure you will find many who have very serious problems with the US and are resolving them with a few RPG's. Sure as hell, if that happened to me, I'd be killing every last asshole I could find until they were out of the place.

Your assessment reminds me of the days Rumsfeld claimed this was "just a minority band of thugs". Another "balanced judgement".

I have little doubt the US will be doing one of these "departure routines" again shortly - tho maybe not before they have bombed the fuck out of a few more thousand and the US body bag count has increased.

Iraq and that region is not a place where there are "winners". These people have their own culture/customs which is their biz - not anyone else's. They have fought for many decades and grew up with a gun and some arms strapped around em.

This latest invasion is not going to "change minds" and make em love "western customs" and "democracy" as it is imposed. They clearly want the US out of the place along with the latest "interim government".

Sure, there are good intentions stuck in the middle of this hellhole, but people don't want to know "how it is" or "how it will be". They will make up their own minds "how it will be". You can't change minds easily (and certainly not by bombs), and in the meantime, they deserve the respect of their "ways".

They were living a culture long before the US was ever a gleam in someone's eye.

There is good and bad on both sides - there ain't no "innocents" in this lot. Some folks have a lot to answer for - on both sides.

When you sit back and look at the overall - the first blatant question has got to be - What the fuck is the US doing there in the first place? It has nothing whatsoever to do with a country miles away from Iraq. Same applies to Israel. Again.. another problem.

If folks minded their own fucking business in the first instance and actually started managing the shit in their own backyard, perhaps we would see nada of "anti US terrorism". There would be no reason for their "terrorism" or "hatred".

100:1 bet we ain't seen anything yet - this "war" ain't even started. That is a great pity - for those both outside and inside the US.

A few more months and we'll have the glimmer of how it *is* all another Vietnam - that is, when the "state of denial" changes into reality.

PS.. Afghanistan is the same.. a fuckup which cannot be managed. Won't bore ya with the usual "how opium is doing well" and "how only 9 million are on electoral roles". It's just so damned pathetic.

theking · 09-27-2004, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by liquidmoe
If you want an accurate picture of the real effects of war on the Iraqi people as a whole the only way to get that is to travel there and see it for yourself, otherwise speak directly with people who had first hand experience, actually being overseas.

The only real commentary here that I put any weight behind is the_wizz's because he is talking about first hand accounts that he has received from friends. That kind of information is the only kind you can really trust, after all, remember, the media is a business, it has no journalistic integrity and if you honestly believe that it does on any large scale you need to seriously re-examine your beliefs. With that said, if the_wizz is telling me that he has friends who say the situation actually has quite a few bright spots I'll give him some weight.

After all what makes for more headlines, more sold newspapers, and more hours of watched TV, a new power plant being opened, a bridge being built, or an American hostage being beheaded.

Just ask yourself when was the last time you saw a thread on GFY boasting to be first about having the video of a hospital being opened in Iraq, and compare that to the fanfare that occurs when a terrorist kills a hostage.

I too have more than twenty friends that I am in contact with(some of which I served with during my 12 years of service) that are currently serving in Iraq...or have returned from Iraq (most of them that have returned will probably be going back at some point)...and everyone of them report a different "big picture" than the media reports. We all know that the media reporting dwells upon the negative and not the positive...they think that is what attracts viewers and they are probably right about that.

liquidmoe · 09-27-2004, 11:50 PM

If Im not mistaken the death toll for US troops in Iraq has just hit 1000 and alot of that is from friendly fire and mission accidents. The death toll in Vietnam based on various sources hovers between 48,000 and 58,000. Not to mention the landscape of the fighting is much different, and the politics of the time is very different as well. Although there are some similiarities between the two wars, and the main would be we are fighting a war in a nation that has nothing to do with us, the death tolls, circumstances, and everything regarding the two wars is vastly different on vastly large scales to seriously compare the two.

Let's see if the death toll will even hit 10K for US soldiers. That is not to downplay the war effort at all, but simply to say that Vietnam was a fuck up by all accounts left and right, while Iraq can still certainly be redeemed.

The reasons for war were obviously false, but we should have seriously questioned those reasons before we went to war, finding out they are untrue does nothing because we simply cant end our involvement over night, so lets focus on what we are doing there, instead of why we are there, when its obvious we are there because of a bunch of lies that none of us really cared about, until the time for change had already passed.

Webby · 09-27-2004, 11:52 PM

theKing:

Quote:

I too have more than twenty friends that I am in contact with(some of which I served with during my 12 years of service) that are currently serving in Iraq...or have returned from Iraq (most of them that have returned will probably be going back at some point)...and everyone of them report a different "big picture" than the media reports. We all know that the media reporting dwells upon the negative and not the positive...they think that is what attracts viewers and they are probably right about that.

King... this "media" stuff and "different pictures"... - that just don't stand up.

It is well-known what the hell is going on there, irrespective of the slants of media.

I sat and listened to a young man who was actually "proud" that he managed to shoot some folks while in Iraq. I wasn't the only one who was speechless listening to that shit.

Don't expect some solider to show a "big picture" - they ain't got a clue.

Don't expect the "leadership" to show a big picture either - they have lied persistantly about this. Next week they are announcing "Iraqi Flower Day" when all "insurgents" are going to throw petals over the US troops.

The whole world "knows" what is going on. That is the fundamental reason they want no part of it - at least until the US is outta the place and a legitimate government in place.

Ya can paint pictures till doomsday - rest assured, none of them are rosy scenarios - for anyone.

piker · 09-28-2004, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamChicks
People who defend this "war" seem to forget that the (latest) justification for this "war" was that we're somehow "saving" them from Saddam, or ourselves from "terrorists", or some such crap. But how can you listen to this interview (or any of the news from Iraq) and not understand how many more enemys we are making for ourselves, when every single day soldiers with OUR FLAG on their sleeve are gunning down people in the street.

Maybe we should of waited for a Saddam regime WMD landed in your neighborhood?

Oh wait I forgot, there were no WMD's and Saddam was a good boy now.. hed never make more...

theking · 09-28-2004, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Webby
theKing:

King... this "media" stuff and "different pictures"... - that just don't stand up.

It is well-known what the hell is going on there, irrespective of the slants of media.

I sat and listened to a young man who was actually "proud" that he managed to shoot some folks while in Iraq. I wasn't the only one who was speechless listening to that shit.

Don't expect some solider to show a "big picture" - they ain't got a clue.

Don't expect the "leadership" to show a big picture either - they have lied persistantly about this. Next week they are announcing "Iraqi Flower Day" when all "insurgents" are going to throw petals over the US troops.

The whole world "knows" what is going on. That is the fundamental reason they want no part of it - at least until the US is outta the place and a legitimate government in place.

Ya can paint pictures till doomsday - rest assured, none of them are rosy scenarios - for anyone.

I will take the word of the boots on the ground...most of which I have served with and some of which I have known for more than twenty years...over any media report...or report from anyone else...thank you very much. They live what is going on every day.

Webby · 09-28-2004, 12:06 AM

liquidmoe:

Quote:

The reasons for war were obviously false, but we should have seriously questioned those reasons before we went to war, finding out they are untrue does nothing because we simply cant end our involvement over night, so lets focus on what we are doing there, instead of why we are there, when its obvious we are there because of a bunch of lies that none of us really cared about, until the time for change had already passed.

That's the problem solving time - the *actual* solution to this shit. Sadly the track record on dealing with relationships/reconciliation/pacifying is very poor and flippant as fuck.

As for the "false reasons" - of that there is no doubt. Those involved need some justice. It ain't just all about Saddam.

How can *any* nation allow some idiot to take them into a war based on bullshit and ignorance?? Unbelievable - and also unbelievable this ass is actually standing for re-election and even has support of around 50% of the US population?

If they do elect him again - well.. the US deserves everything they probably got coming. One day maybe they will get a clue.

piker · 09-28-2004, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by liquidmoe
If Im not mistaken the death toll for US troops in Iraq has just hit 1000 and alot of that is from friendly fire and mission accidents. The death toll in Vietnam based on various sources hovers between 48,000 and 58,000. Not to mention the landscape of the fighting is much different, and the politics of the time is very different as well. Although there are some similiarities between the two wars, and the main would be we are fighting a war in a nation that has nothing to do with us, the death tolls, circumstances, and everything regarding the two wars is vastly different on vastly large scales to seriously compare the two.

Let's see if the death toll will even hit 10K for US soldiers. That is not to downplay the war effort at all, but simply to say that Vietnam was a fuck up by all accounts left and right, while Iraq can still certainly be redeemed.

The reasons for war were obviously false, but we should have seriously questioned those reasons before we went to war, finding out they are untrue does nothing because we simply cant end our involvement over night, so lets focus on what we are doing there, instead of why we are there, when its obvious we are there because of a bunch of lies that none of us really cared about, until the time for change had already passed.

I don't buy into the left wing agenda that we were lied to and had no right to goto war in Iraq... Saddam, had terrorist ties... and he had potential to make WMD's... not to mention our allies where starting to do business with him again.. It is not like the left are trying to paint it.... That Saddam was a good boy.. he radically changed his beliefs and views and suddenly just wanted to run a peacefull nation... These same leftist seem to forget who stole his people's food for oil money to build palaces and who knows what else....

Webby · 09-28-2004, 12:17 AM

theKing:

Quote:

I will take the word of the boots on the ground...most of which I have served with and some of which I have known for more than twenty years...over any media report...or report from anyone else...thank you very much. They live what is going on every day.

I can't say King... don't know enough of em to make generalised statements. But I doubt from the little I have seen of US troops, that I'd take any "reasonable judgement" from.

Individually, I'm sure there are many good guys who can "assess", but we have one massive load of ... literally kids... who are being punted out there and possess absolutely nada experience of fuck all.

That is sure part of the problem - no "creds". It's like Rice said, "US forces are trained to kill, and that's what they should be doing". These kids can't "manage" things or relate to people - screw the concept of "peacekeepers".

It's even more sad when ya look at the ages on the death lists. Some asshole needs to be accountable for that shit. It has bugger all to do with "military law" - it's criminal.

Webby · 09-28-2004, 12:25 AM

Piker:

Quote:

Saddam, had terrorist ties... and he had potential to make WMD's... not to mention our allies where starting to do business with him again

Exactly where is there *any* evidence that Saddam had "terrorist ties"?? Who's "terrorists" were they? bin Laden's?

Someone had some "potential to make WMD"s" means they need to be bombed to fuck??

What's with "our allies were starting to do business with him again"?? There some gripe about being left out?

What "your allies" did not do is "use" Saddam to do their dirty work in assasinating democratically elected members of other governments, supply him with arms to fight more wars (with Iran), and support his rise to power - when it suited.

theking · 09-28-2004, 12:35 AM

To give an example of how the media reports events...a month or two ago a Division Commander that had recently returned from Iraq was interviewed. At one point the interviewer asked the General how well was the media doing at reporting events. He replyed by relating this story. One of the units in his command one one day were on the receiving end of two mortar rounds. That was reported my the media as the unit fell under heavy artillary attack. No artillary involved and two rounds from a motar does not consist of a heavy attack. The General also talked about the relationship between his troops and ordinary Iraqi's and he said for the most part the relationship was good in is AO.

I take all media reports from any source about any subject with a grain of salt. They mis-report...they use adjectives to exploit their reports to the point that there is actually little truth to what actually occurred...all to attrack viewers and increase the bottom line.

Paul Markham · 09-28-2004, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RocHard
Have you ever played paintball? It's about as close to combat as you can get. At any given moment, no matter how well concealed you are, you can be hit.

Now imagine walking down a crowded street with a loaded machine gun and at any moment you can get shot. The only difference is your not gonna get a welt from a paintball, your gonna die. Your walking down the street and you have kids comeing up to you asking for gum or chocolate, and then suddenly your fellow Marine walking next to you goes down becasue he was just shot in the neck.

This is a war zone, and warzones have civilians in then. The Marines aren't walking down the street shooting people at random; They are dealing with threats and engaging in fire fights.

The basic problem are were the orders given to Sgt Massey as he stated, if so they are against the Geneva Convention and a charge of war crimes could be made.

I have a friend who was in Iraq as a Royal Marine Commando. His job was to go into villages and do a recce with his team. They would approach a village and Iraqia would rush out shouting "Soldiers" "Soldiers" "Soldiers" some holding objects they could not determine. They kept walking, at times he says they were terrified but their orders were to proceed.

US Marines in the same situation called in the airforce to level the village.

There to establish a democracy, get rid of terrorists and make the world a safer place?

Look at the difference between how the UK dealt with a terrorist war in Northern Ireland and how the US deal with it.

Look at what has happened in Yugoslavia and the disgust by the West of these tactics.

theking · 09-28-2004, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Webby
Piker:

Exactly where is there *any* evidence that Saddam had "terrorist ties"?? Who's "terrorists" were they? bin Laden's?

Someone had some "potential to make WMD"s" means they need to be bombed to fuck??

What's with "our allies were starting to do business with him again"?? There some gripe about being left out?

What "your allies" did not do is "use" Saddam to do their dirty work in assasinating democratically elected members of other governments, supply him with arms to fight more wars (with Iran), and support his rise to power - when it suited.

He had ties to "terrorists" orgs and was open about it. I have been an advocate for taking down Saddam within the first year of the cease fire agreements that he immediately broke. The US did not supply him with any arms other than a few rotary wing aircraft (not gunships) and indirectly with some cluster bombs...during the Iran/Iraq war. His weapons of war were supplied primarily by Russia...some by France...and some by Germany.

theking · 09-28-2004, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by charly
The basic problem are were the orders given to Sgt Massey as he stated, if so they are against the Geneva Convention and a charge of war crimes could be made.

Clueless...you should not speak about things that you know absolutely nothing about. There was not a single statement made by the Sgt that is a violation of the Geneva Convention.

Webby · 09-28-2004, 01:14 AM

theKing:

Quote:

He had ties to "terrorists" orgs and was open about it. I have been an advocate for taking down Saddam within the first year of the cease fire agreements that he immediately broke. The US did not supply him with any arms other than a few rotary wing aircraft (not gunships) and indirectly with some cluster bombs...during the Iran/Iraq war. His weapons of war were supplied primarily by Russia...some by France...and some by Germany.

Oh fuck!! I can't be bothered with the blinkered "one picture only" views.

Na.. all that is bullshit! I never read such a load of bullshit in a few weeks from ya King. "Rotary wing aircraft" - fuck me. Hitler was a kindergarten teacher and provided social services to his community in his spare time.

First.. the US spent months on end with him conspiring to assassinate members of the Iranian government when that country was a democracy. He evertually succeeded in this murder.

Second.. the US then aided Saddam into power in Iraq. Till this time, Iraq was the most "western orientated" country in the Middle East. Again.. it is clear why the US did this.

Third... The US then supplied him with PLENTY arms - in fact, with the express object of "using" him to attack Iran. This included "weaponary" we are not supposed to talk about.

The US did also not supply this weaponary "during" any fucking war, but prior to it, in an effort to arm him.

I wish to fuck you were "real" - I can't be bothered writing stuff that is common knowledge and not even disputed by your own government.

As for the "terrorist orgs that he was open about" - what fucking orgs and since when was Saddam open about fuck all? The main was a evil senile idiot - he was a little more preoccupied with "self" than some "terrorist orgs".

Why is it that only 50% of the US population consider "Saddam had links to terrorism" when the "admin" keep having to admit he did not - despite the fact they always try to "imply" this. It's called propaganda - and you are obviously an avid follower.

Sometimes when I read such utter dribble, I really think the US is some island, not in this world. The amazing ignorance (or maybe denial?) is deafening.

But then again... fuck me.. there is even dispute over your own history. Fat chance of getting the history of elsewhere right.

CamChicks · 09-28-2004, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by piker
I don't buy into the left wing agenda that we were lied to

Here is proof that we were lied to,
that any sane person will accept.

http://www.bi30archive.org/extras/Po..._no_threat.asx

Quote:

Originally posted by piker

Saddam, had terrorist ties...

Osama hated Saddam. They are ideological enemys. Osama gave press interviews in which he called Saddam an "infidel" and a "bad muslim" and called for him to be overthrown. Saddam was secular. Osama cannot stand a secular government in the 'holy lands'. he hated Saddam almost as much as he hates Israel and America. Before the Kuwait incident, Saddam was a US ally. Saddam embraced US culture. Saddam waged war on Iran for fucks sake! Saddam was an enemy of Islam. Why is that so hard for the average american to understand still. He spent his whole life fighting the same groups we're fighting now. Yes, he was brutal, but "the enemy of your enemy is your friend." It is absurd to think that Saddam would do anything to help Al Queda. The only intelligence connecting them is a sketchy account of some meeting that was diplomatic in nature; much in the same way as we would meet with the Russians in the 80s, or maybe the North Koreans today. Sending an ambassador to find out what the other side is up to is not akin to working together.

Quote:

Originally posted by piker

and he had potential to make WMD's..

Untrue. The world knows this now, and we also knew it before the war. See video link above.

Quote:

Originally posted by piker

not to mention our allies where starting to do business with him again..

The only reason Saddam was demonized for attacking Kuwait was because of Bush Sr's political backstabbing. Saddam asked our permission before taking military action against Kuwait and we gave him the green light. But then Bushs Saudi buddies got upset ... and the west is history.

Need proof?

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/glaspie.html

Quote:

U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960's, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America. (Saddam smiles)

Quote:

Originally posted by piker

It is not like the left are trying to paint it.... That Saddam was a good boy.. he radically changed his beliefs and views and suddenly just wanted to run a peacefull nation...

Saddam was always our best asset in the middle east. He wasn't bad for Iraq either. He turned a darkages islamic blackhole into a modern civilization. He built infastructure, roads and hospitals (america doesnt even have free heath care), and made literacy mandatory (you go to jail if you dont learn how to read). He advanced public education and womens rights, allowed them to work and go to school. No, Iraq was no paradise, but he built a more progressive society than the theocracies around him.

click here for a quick history lesson about who Saddam is:
http://www.ericblumrich.com/thanks.html

Webby · 09-28-2004, 01:22 AM

charly:

Quote:

Look at the difference between how the UK dealt with a terrorist war in Northern Ireland and how the US deal with it.

It's the difference between a sane balanced mind and a neurotic spoilt brat in heat.

Personally I think the UK should just have told some lies about how wicked the people of NI are and sent 100 helecopter gunships to "cure" the problem - it would be in keeping with current US mentality. Insane.

Doctor Dre · 09-28-2004, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Citizen
This bullshit war is so wrong on so many levels.

The re-electing of Bush will do even more dammages

nofx · 09-28-2004, 01:36 AM

fucked up shit

theking · 09-28-2004, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Webby
theKing:

Oh fuck!! I can't be bothered with the blinkered "one picture only" views.

Na.. all that is bullshit! I never read such a load of bullshit in a few weeks from ya King. "Rotary wing aircraft" - fuck me. Hitler was a kindergarten teacher and provided social services to his community in his spare time.

First.. the US spent months on end with him conspiring to assassinate members of the Iranian government when that country was a democracy. He evertually succeeded in this murder.

Second.. the US then aided Saddam into power in Iraq. Till this time, Iraq was the most "western orientated" country in the Middle East. Again.. it is clear why the US did this.

Third... The US then supplied him with PLENTY arms - in fact, with the express object of "using" him to attack Iran. This included "weaponary" we are not supposed to talk about.

The US did also not supply this weaponary "during" any fucking war, but prior to it, in an effort to arm him.

I wish to fuck you were "real" - I can't be bothered writing stuff that is common knowledge and not even disputed by your own government.

As for the "terrorist orgs that he was open about" - what fucking orgs and since when was Saddam open about fuck all? The main was a evil senile idiot - he was a little more preoccupied with "self" than some "terrorist orgs".

Why is it that only 50% of the US population consider "Saddam had links to terrorism" when the "admin" keep having to admit he did not - despite the fact they always try to "imply" this. It's called propaganda - and you are obviously an avid follower.

Sometimes when I read such utter dribble, I really think the US is some island, not in this world. The amazing ignorance (or maybe denial?) is deafening.

But then again... fuck me.. there is even dispute over your own history. Fat chance of getting the history of elsewhere right.

Pig shit.

Mojiteaux · 09-28-2004, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RocHard
There is a huge difference between genocide and the killing of civilians by accident. Genocide is when you set out to destroy an entire race, similar to what Hilter did to the Jews. The United States Marines is not killing Iraqis by the tens of thousands by sending them to gas chambers.

No, but they are trying to exterminate Falluja

theking · 09-28-2004, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamChicks
Here is proof that we were lied to,
that any sane person will accept.

http://www.bi30archive.org/extras/Po..._no_threat.asx

Osama hated Saddam. They are ideological enemys. Osama gave press interviews in which he called Saddam an "infidel" and a "bad muslim" and called for him to be overthrown. Saddam was secular. Osama cannot stand a secular government in the 'holy lands'. he hated Saddam almost as much as he hates Israel and America. Before the Kuwait incident, Saddam was a US ally. Saddam embraced US culture. Saddam waged war on Iran for fucks sake! Saddam was an enemy of Islam. Why is that so hard for the average american to understand still. He spent his whole life fighting the same groups we're fighting now. Yes, he was brutal, but "the enemy of your enemy is your friend." It is absurd to think that Saddam would do anything to help Al Queda. The only intelligence connecting them is a sketchy account of some meeting that was diplomatic in nature; much in the same way as we would meet with the Russians in the 80s, or maybe the North Koreans today. Sending an ambassador to find out what the other side is up to is not akin to working together.

Untrue. The world knows this now, and we also knew it before the war. See video link above.

The only reason Saddam was demonized for attacking Kuwait was because of Bush Sr's political backstabbing. Saddam asked our permission before taking military action against Kuwait and we gave him the green light. But then Bushs Saudi buddies got upset ... and the west is history.

Need proof?

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/glaspie.html

Saddam was always our best asset in the middle east. He wasn't bad for Iraq either. He turned a darkages islamic blackhole into a modern civilization. He built infastructure, roads and hospitals (america doesnt even have free heath care), and made literacy mandatory (you go to jail if you dont learn how to read). He advanced public education and womens rights, allowed them to work and go to school. No, Iraq was no paradise, but he built a more progressive society than the theocracies around him.

click here for a quick history lesson about who Saddam is:
http://www.ericblumrich.com/thanks.html

Well...you have me convinced. Saddam is a great man indeed. FREE SADDAM. FREE SADDAM. FREE SADDAM.

On a serious note. You have your opinions and conclusions. I have mine...and I am of the opinion that we should not waited all of the years that we did to take him down. He should have been taken down within the first year of the cease fire...for breaking the agreements that he agreed to.

Webby · 09-28-2004, 01:55 AM

theKing:

Quote:

Pig shit.

Yeah.. noticed how undisputed facts are known as pig shit.

Is that what happens when your brain gets fucked?

theking · 09-28-2004, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojiteaux
No, but they are trying to exterminate Falluja

If we wanted to exterminate Falluja...it would be done in a single day...and may eventually be done...along with all other sanctuarys.

sacX · 09-28-2004, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theking
...and those who hate Americans...for whatever their individual reasons. The estimated number of "insurgents" range from 10,000-50,000...

Perhaps a majority of those people aren't dead end Baathists or foreign fighters and were no threat to US interests before the invasion.

Now they're full blown "terrorists"

theking · 09-28-2004, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Webby
theKing:

Yeah.. noticed how undisputed facts are known as pig shit.

Is that what happens when your brain gets fucked?

They are only undisputed facts in your mind...but virtually everything in your post has been and still is disputed by any number of sources.

Webby · 09-28-2004, 02:00 AM

theKing:

Quote:

I am of the opinion that we should not waited all of the years that we did to take him down.

Your opinion on any aspect is irrelevant - I'm pleased to say.

You got a severe "taking folks down" mentality...

Suppose that's why the US is fucked right now - sounds like that is the same mentality that was used in the "decision making process" - arrogance and ignorance.

theking · 09-28-2004, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sacX
Perhaps a majority of those people aren't dead end Baathists or foreign fighters and were no threat to US interests before the invasion.

Now they're full blown "terrorists"

What is your point? We are their enemy...they are ours...and they are the enemy of their people as they are killing far more of their own people than we are.

Webby · 09-28-2004, 02:03 AM

theKing:

Quote:

They are only undisputed facts in your mind...but virtually everything in your post has been and still is disputed by any number of sources.

That's nice to know.. always wondered who killed off the Iranian Finance Minister... it must have been Donald Duck.

It is little surprise you ain't got a clue...

sacX · 09-28-2004, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theking
What is your point? We are their enemy...they are ours...and they are the enemy of their people as they are killing far more of their own people than we are.

that each action in Iraq is creating more enemies.

theking · 09-28-2004, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Webby
theKing:

Your opinion on any aspect is irrelevant - I'm pleased to say.

You got a severe "taking folks down" mentality...

Suppose that's why the US is fucked right now - sounds like that is the same mentality that was used in the "decision making process" - arrogance and ignorance.

My opinion is far more relevant than that of a foreigner. I at least have the power of my vote and the ear of my congressman. You have nada to say about the decisions made by my government or the American people. You say the "US is fucked" and I say the US is still the richest...most powerful...and most important country the history of the world has ever known...and will remain in that status for the foreseeable future...certainly for my life time and yours.

Webby · 09-28-2004, 02:07 AM

theKing:

Quote:

What is your point? We are their enemy...they are ours...and they are the enemy of their people as they are killing far more of their own people than we are.

What a stupid response. Can't you read??

I "think" SacX is trying to say... they were never *your* enemy - they did not give a shit about *you*.

You elected to be their enemy. You whining now?

"They" are not attacking the US - why are you bothering?? It's called mind your own fucking business.

Go find some more enemies - it's clear you need them and have a need to hate.

Webby · 09-28-2004, 02:09 AM

theKing:

The US is fucked.. well fucked.

sacX · 09-28-2004, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theking
My opinion is far more relevant than that of a foreigner. I at least have the power of my vote and the ear of my congressman. You have nada to say about the decisions made by my government or the American people. You say the "US is fucked" and I say the US is still the richest...most powerful...and most important country the history of the world has ever known...and will remain in that status for the foreseeable future...certainly for my life time and yours.

Well as a block the EU has a bigger GDP than the US, and China will in 10-15 years.. Of course on a per capita person they're not..
And with huge deficits all those USD going to trade partners who buy up US assets..

Perhaps you're planning on dying reasonably soon. *shrug*

sacX · 09-28-2004, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Webby
theKing:

What a stupid response. Can't you read??

I "think" SacX is trying to say... they were never *your* enemy - they did not give a shit about *you*.

You elected to be their enemy. You whining now?

"They" are not attacking the US - why are you bothering?? It's called mind your own fucking business.

Go find some more enemies - it's clear you need them and have a need to hate.

yeah I didn't think it was that hard to interpret

Webby · 09-28-2004, 02:17 AM

SacX:

Quote:

Well as a block the EU has a bigger GDP than the US, and China will in 10-15 years.. Of course on a per capita person they're not..
And with huge deficits all those USD going to trade partners who buy up US assets..

Perhaps you're planning on dying reasonably soon. *shrug*

In all seriousness.. dumping Kings "my dick is bigger" bullshit - I don't think the US has seen fuck all in "bad times" yet.

Ya may question why they are having "bad times" - it seems to originate from past actions. Else, who is giving a shit?

People don't "hate" and "attack" cos the US has Disneyland.

Hell knows what the next 10 years will be like... at a guess, I think we will see more isolation and "lack of cooperation". This will extend thru all levels... economy, "relationships" and loads more....

The "damage" started decades ago and they ain't got a clue in repairing this - we are still at the my-dick-is-bigger stage of adolescence.

It's almost pointless wasting time over the shit..

theking · 09-28-2004, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Webby
theKing:

What a stupid response. Can't you read??

I "think" SacX is trying to say... they were never *your* enemy - they did not give a shit about *you*.

You elected to be their enemy. You whining now?

"They" are not attacking the US - why are you bothering?? It's called mind your own fucking business.

Go find some more enemies - it's clear you need them and have a need to hate.

Apparently the world per se viewed them as their enemy as the UN took it upon themselves to impose 12 years of sanctions against them...which some say cost as many as a million Iraqi lives...though a true number will never be known.

Yours and others "beloved UN" did this to those poor innocent Iraqi's. Since the coalition invaded Iraq the US convinced the UN to remove the sanctions...but it did take some convincing by the US.

Webby · 09-28-2004, 02:23 AM

theKing:

Quote:

Yours and others "beloved UN" did this to those poor innocent Iraqi's. Since the coalition invaded Iraq the US convinced the UN to remove the sanctions...but it did take some convincing by the US.

I can't be bothered King - it's not even an intelligent conversation...

I see your hatred of the UN is alive and kicking.

The US is obviously on the right hand side of God.

It must be the rest of the world that is out of step.

Webby · 09-28-2004, 02:28 AM

btw... what "coalition"?

You must be joking??

This was the Texas Village Idiots "term" - you actually believe him?

If so, ya might as well slit your throat now... it's not worth continuing...

PS... I see the US govt has still not removed some "members of the coalition" off their websites as requested by the respective nations. Can you have a word and ask em to remove these countries? That alone is a fraud.

CamChicks · 09-28-2004, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theking
I am of the opinion that we should not waited all of the years that we did to take him down. He should have been taken down within the first year of the cease fire...

General Schwartzkopf can answer that with more authority.

http://www.bushflash.com/wmf/Schwartzkopf.WMV

Webby · 09-28-2004, 02:32 AM

CamChicks:

Quote:

General Schwartzkopf can answer that with more authority.

A far superior authority than the "alleged President" or King

theking · 09-28-2004, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Webby
theKing:

I can't be bothered King - it's not even an intelligent conversation...

I see your hatred of the UN is alive and kicking.

The US is obviously on the right hand side of God.

It must be the rest of the world that is out of step.

I have little use for the UN...and I would not feel badly if the US kicked it out of our country and withdrew from it...but I do not advocate doing that. It is a debating society and debate is not all bad.

I do see though that when you are confronted with real real facts...you have very little to say.

Fact...the UN viewed Iraq as a threat...thus the 12 years of sanctions and the 17 resolutions against Iraq...with the last being 1441 which clearly stated severe consequences...and the US being a major player in the UN followed 1441 and developed approximately 40 other members of the UN to form a coalition and provide the serious consequences.

theking · 09-28-2004, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamChicks
General Schwartzkopf can answer that with more authority.

http://www.bushflash.com/wmf/Schwartzkopf.WMV

General Schwartzkopf is speaking to what the UN mandate was in '91 and not too any events post '91 such as Iraq breaking almost all cease fire agreements within the first year of the cease fire. So what is your point?

CamChicks · 09-28-2004, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theking
So what is your point?

He's explaining why it is/was a stupid idea.

Seems like everybody knew what would happen except baby bush...

Webby · 09-28-2004, 02:53 AM

theKing:

Quote:

I have little use for the UN...and I would not feel badly if the US kicked it out of our country and withdrew from it...but I do not advocate doing that. It is a debating society and debate is not all bad.

I can see you have little use for the UN - that is clear.

The UN are not excited about their prescence in the US either. It was your own government that fought tooth and nail to have the UN there.

The UN is not a "debating society" - it IS the international community, whether you like this or not.

The US also, at least this week, wants to "belong" to that international community - although it has that track record of blocking/raising objections on every subject you care to mention. It also has the tendency to rip the place apart, like a spoilt brat, when it does not get it's way.

There may come the time when the US should fuck off out of the UN. It is sadly a country that is unable to comply with agreements/treaties signed - basically no "cred" again.

Or maybe one day the US will reach some maturity and manage to quit behaving like a rapid dog in heat and realise there is more important shit in life instead of the "need" of enemies and the clever techinques ya find in collecting so many percieved enemies.

There are many good people in "power" in the US - they just ain't the good people who hold enough sway in controlling the asylum for the insane and clubbing the idiot element. It's classic that this is called a "democracy" - this level of "democracy" is sure not seen in any *real* civilized society.

Don't even start on "our values of freedom" - that's a joke...

Basically... when ya can behave, come back and join the party.

Cogitator · 09-28-2004, 02:55 AM

Thing is, all we ever hear about from Iraq on the TV is negative. I heard a soldier on the radio who came back recently and he was in an area of Iraq where they were happy to see the Americans and even had a huge going-away dinner for them.

Webby · 09-28-2004, 02:59 AM

theKing:

Quote:

General Schwartzkopf is speaking to what the UN mandate was in '91 and not too any events post '91 such as Iraq breaking almost all cease fire agreements within the first year of the cease fire. So what is your point?

The man actually mirrored exactly what is happening in Iraq right now.

Your issue of time is irrelevant - this is happening now.

Why are you asking about "points" now? Is it not clear?

Some clearly can't learn from history - that's blatantly obvious.

Webby · 09-28-2004, 03:02 AM

Cogitator:

Quote:

Thing is, all we ever hear about from Iraq on the TV is negative. I heard a soldier on the radio who came back recently and he was in an area of Iraq where they were happy to see the Americans and even had a huge going-away dinner for them.

Clearly there is a big difference between radio and TV in the US.

I always thought the "media" was the media...

Sounds real nice... which area was that?? :-)

FuckFind · 09-28-2004, 03:13 AM

this dialouge is in featured in a lamb of god song, didn't know where it came from so good post. They are very anti-war band.

related song = http://log.radiotakeover.com/

FF

thunder99 · 09-28-2004, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RocHard

Now imagine walking down a crowded street with a loaded machine gun and at any moment you can get shot. The only difference is your not gonna get a welt from a paintball, your gonna die. Your walking down the street and you have kids comeing up to you asking for gum or chocolate, and then suddenly your fellow Marine walking next to you goes down becasue he was just shot in the neck.

This is a war zone, and warzones have civilians in then. The Marines aren't walking down the street shooting people at random; They are dealing with threats and engaging in fire fights.

The problem is US troops aren't walking down the streets to patrol them, they are bombing from the air. The are too afraid to loose their own troops so they just bomb from the air and don't care how many women and children get killed.

Firepower alone will NEVER win the war the Iraq, brainpower will, but I'm afraid our 'leaders' will never understand that until its too late.

09-27-2004, 11:50 PM	#53
liquidmoe Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NY Posts: 4,994	If Im not mistaken the death toll for US troops in Iraq has just hit 1000 and alot of that is from friendly fire and mission accidents. The death toll in Vietnam based on various sources hovers between 48,000 and 58,000. Not to mention the landscape of the fighting is much different, and the politics of the time is very different as well. Although there are some similiarities between the two wars, and the main would be we are fighting a war in a nation that has nothing to do with us, the death tolls, circumstances, and everything regarding the two wars is vastly different on vastly large scales to seriously compare the two. Let's see if the death toll will even hit 10K for US soldiers. That is not to downplay the war effort at all, but simply to say that Vietnam was a fuck up by all accounts left and right, while Iraq can still certainly be redeemed. The reasons for war were obviously false, but we should have seriously questioned those reasons before we went to war, finding out they are untrue does nothing because we simply cant end our involvement over night, so lets focus on what we are doing there, instead of why we are there, when its obvious we are there because of a bunch of lies that none of us really cared about, until the time for change had already passed. __________________ Take Luck! Last edited by liquidmoe; 09-27-2004 at 11:51 PM..

09-28-2004, 12:35 AM	#61
theking Nice Kitty Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The good old USA!!! Posts: 21,053	To give an example of how the media reports events...a month or two ago a Division Commander that had recently returned from Iraq was interviewed. At one point the interviewer asked the General how well was the media doing at reporting events. He replyed by relating this story. One of the units in his command one one day were on the receiving end of two mortar rounds. That was reported my the media as the unit fell under heavy artillary attack. No artillary involved and two rounds from a motar does not consist of a heavy attack. The General also talked about the relationship between his troops and ordinary Iraqi's and he said for the most part the relationship was good in is AO. I take all media reports from any source about any subject with a grain of salt. They mis-report...they use adjectives to exploit their reports to the point that there is actually little truth to what actually occurred...all to attrack viewers and increase the bottom line. __________________ When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me! FOR THE LYING LOWLIFE POSTING AS PATHFINDER...https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-pr...athfinder.html

09-28-2004, 01:36 AM	#69
nofx Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Virgin Mary's womb Posts: 16,826	fucked up shit __________________ Often times I wonder why There's love and hate, theres live or die. When sickness comes I must decide: When feelings go, theres suicide.

09-28-2004, 02:55 AM	#96
Cogitator Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 672	Thing is, all we ever hear about from Iraq on the TV is negative. I heard a soldier on the radio who came back recently and he was in an area of Iraq where they were happy to see the Americans and even had a huge going-away dinner for them. __________________ - this space intentionally left blank -

09-28-2004, 02:09 AM	#83
Webby Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Far far away - as possible Posts: 14,956	theKing: The US is fucked.. well fucked.

09-28-2004, 02:28 AM	#89
Webby Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Far far away - as possible Posts: 14,956	btw... what "coalition"? You must be joking?? This was the Texas Village Idiots "term" - you actually believe him? If so, ya might as well slit your throat now... it's not worth continuing... PS... I see the US govt has still not removed some "members of the coalition" off their websites as requested by the respective nations. Can you have a word and ask em to remove these countries? That alone is a fraud.

09-28-2004, 03:13 AM	#99
FuckFind Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,188	this dialouge is in featured in a lamb of god song, didn't know where it came from so good post. They are very anti-war band. related song = http://log.radiotakeover.com/ FF