just use 3rd party filters instead of layer styles :)

No psd = no deal. Period.

PSDs not being given really never occurred to me before, even in mainstream. But then again finding mainstream clients willing to pay the $ for a good design wasn't so easy where I was doing this either.

I do some design here and there for people, and will gladly give up PSDs with the project. I don't want five million requests for a typographical change piling up at little or no cost to them if I have other things going on. Fonts, well if they're shareware or freeware, no problem. If not, you can't do that.

You may develop custom layer styles, etc., but in most cases someone buying an Adobe design would take one look at 100 layers and close the file, grab a drink and call you for help before monkeying with anything. It's about subtlety, compositing, a million different effects which someone looking at your file might get a glimpse up its skirts of but not the full picture. Just because you've Quickmasked out the background in a model doesn't mean someone can look at that and do a more subtle job than Jack the Ripper. If you have trademark effects, conceal them and make only the obvious stuff like blending options visible.

Most of Photoshop can't be taught with just one file. It takes years of dealing with Adobe and its quirks, anguish and then ecstasy when new things like layers come out and you learn to use them - it's as much an art as anything, and layer styles/templates don't make someone using the PSD any more convincing than handing someone a camera who watched Ansel Adams take pictures. It takes a special creative personality to figure this stuff out.

Should be a no-brainer.

-doug

I would expect to get them. Really it should be agreed on before the work commences though.

You pay for what you ask for, and if that is a logo then that is what you get. I wouldn't give the PSDs unless that was part of the deal. Perhaps if they asked but I wouldn't feel like I was obliged to. Unless its in the agreement then I think its up to the designer to do what he wants.

Good point by Ironhorse:
the client needs to tell you IN ADVANCE that they require the files

many things I make I have to merge a lot of layers etc to achieve the effects desired.
Often text has to be raterised to add special filters etc
They can't be edited by anyone else

This is one reason i tell clients they should pay the little extra upfront and get the "free update" deal.
Coz there's no way in hell they can change many parts of the design. - And if *I* am gonna be stuck with having to update it - well that's my precious time and time is money.

BTW Eros - after this thread r you gonna offer PSD files or not? :1orglaugh

Hey Kitty will you and Firehorse be in Phoenix? I'd love to say Hi, I'll keep an eye out for Jesus, i'm sharing room with this other Jesus. Jesus I'll be surrounded by Jesus.

I disagree, the psd's should be provided if asked for. The designer does not need to offer them but if asked they should have them and give them.

I think we both said we would provide them, but there are many complexities in layered design many customers don't consider, please read my post again. And Kitty talks about compositing layers just by default, it's a little bit tough giving editable layers when they aren't available. You may feel you are entitled to a PSD but you can't control a designers work style, unless of course you discuss this at the beginning of a project, which we both stress and there are no issues with that.

Additionally I keep backups of all my files and they are always available, like you said, a customer has to just ask usually and it's no sweat. But there are the considerations that I mention above.

:thumbsup

as long as payment is made in full i have no problem sending over psd files. i don't see that it's totally neccisary. kind of like a programmer giving up his source code. but obviously they paid you to do the design because they could not do it themselves, so therefore i would assume that there isn't much one psd file could teach them that would jeapordize your buisness.

additionally, they paid you to do the design, so they own the whole thing, lock stock and barrel i suppose.

I mostly include them if wanted without extra costs. But if they don't ask for it I don't give 'm simple as that

:2 cents:

I think they should. If I was a designer I would want to give my client the freedom the change things they may not like.

However if it is something like selling a mass amount of cheap TGP designs for $20 each or whatever I wouldn't, because you are probably using the same template and changing stuff, and your designs are so cheap you would want that person to come back for more.

With an expensive design I would be upset if I didn't get the PSD.

nope - it's like a photographer giving out his negatives

if you must - flatten most of the layers before doing so

If a designer doesn't give the PSD files up, then the client really has no absolute way to prove he paid for the work

- you can fake an invoice, but you can't fake a PSD file with all those layers..

if you could you may as well have designed it yourself

ur wrong - if the designer gives the psd file - the client can turn and not pay - now that he has the layers to 'say' i made it myself

tough question to answer. when I buy designs I ask for the .psd files and I am always willing to pay a bit more to get them.
But I dont think a designer MUST give you the files, but when you asked for them you will probably get them.

I believe u should

I only give up files html and all once a client has paid and not before...unless it's a steady client or someone in this industry who I know is trustworthy.

Ironhorse - no we wont be in phoenix
maybe vegas next year we've had 2 years constant travle we are having a year off

I liek to pint out that even tho I do merge many layers etc etc
i backup all work in stages
so I can go back and edit most (to a certain degree)
a lot of stuff I make in different files then import into the design
so one site has dozens of PSD files so I can change many parts without changing whole site.

100 designers :glugglug

I always give my clients the PSD..

Hi,

We from Dickmans Design always give the PSD files to our clients.

They have paid for a tour, and therefore they have the right to edit it and change it any time they want.

kisses,

Milena

I always give my clients the LSD

oops.. wrong thread :Graucho

:1orglaugh

Okay so the next question is this....is it just a matter of cost of the product?

In other words for a $1K tour the psd files being given isn't such an issue...but as others have stated a bunch of $20-$30 galleries do you think that's another issue?

Should the psd be given up?

heres how i see it
from a designer viewpoint id hand it over

as a buyer - id say i'd take the PSD files sure
BUT if it's only a $30 job
hell I can afford to buy a brand new design - no need to update old ones
but thats just me :2 cents:

I won't buy any graphics if they don't come with the .psd's, and anything else used, like fonts.

Some of the arguments about why they dont want to give the .psds are funny.. "They can take it apart and see how its done and make a bunch of new sites!" Well I can go to subway and take my sandwich apart and see how it's made.. but I still go to subway... but if I decide when I get home this sandwich needs a bit more mustard. I can take it apart and squirt some more in without having to go back, get in line and ask them to do it for me.

I hate doing graphics. My time is better spent elsewhere.. that's why I pay for designs.

It's a buyers market out there right now..

Good thread.

:thumbsup

Yes. After the client paid.

i think its been touched on in this thread b4
but many fonts are licensed (all the good ones hehe)
unless they are freeware - designers are not spose to give you those files.

exactly.
I had someone hit me up looking for a font after they bough a template off of template monster...they didn't want to have to go buy it...LOL

I specify this all before I give the go ahead on a design.

They can either use free fonts (I really dont care what fonts a designer uses.. and there is a lot of variety with freeware fonts.) or factor the price of the font into their design bid.

I don't lowball people either on designs.. it's not like I want the world for $9.99

Depend on what you talk with the client.

it's the same with software source code. some give it some don't. it depends on the deal.

there are fanatics of open source and also the other way around. i choose not to take a side and consider it on a case by case basis.

By law anything made for a company is the property of that company, either salary or contract work, the copyright for whatever it is becomes the property of the company, not the designer.

If you make a tour for company X and then use the same tour for company Y you are guilty of copyright infringment even though you made both tours.

and if you take tour A and make
tour B C D AND E aswell as Template a1 b2 c3 d4 and banners 1-1000a and 1-2000b

out of it . it takes alot of cash from our pockets , doesnt it .
AND
you are guilty of copyright infringment even though you made all 500 tours .

I say NO. I wouldn't give out my psd's.

Its already been said that if you have the files you can make 100's of template sites from the psd's.

I always give exactly what my clients want. If they want to alter it later they can pay for an update or get another designer.

For cheap galleries, no.

There are some people that know what they are doing and can purchase one gallery, without getting the psd, and make multiple styles out of the graphics anyhow.

And at the same time there are newbies and even newbie designers who have some idea that they can buy one $20 gallery and get the psd and learn from there, or make a whole damn tour out of it. Sorry, not gonna happen.

But for logos and site designs where there might be changes, sure they probably need the psd. Then again there are some designers who stick around and are open to doing edits as well for the clients.

A good site design should be structured for updates anyhow, to where the psd will not really be needed unless there are major alterations, or maybe model specific graphics.

Case by case is the best way to make this decision.

I never realized some designers would deny the psd files.
I wouldnt buy from anyone not providing the psd, Im not gonna pay again just to change a font or a couple of letters if I decide a month from now I want my sites to say something different. or I want to remove a section.

A Lot of the analogys used in this thread are way of base.
its not like photography its not selling "the tools". The tool to make a .psd is photoshop not the .psd thats created with photoshop.

Its not like mainstream, mainstream Major players pay more (major corporations) for design. But mainstraem mid and low level players pay pennys compared to what adult mid and low level players pay. Joes resaurant would never pay a designer 2k to do his website. Sue the sluts new adult site would. There is no comparing the two.