what really is causing these chargebacks - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

Pipecrew · 07-14-2003, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

this is your basic cross sell

Click here to signup for a 4 day NO CHARGE Membership to whatever site Four Day Trial Subscription. After 4 days, Membership renews automatically at $36.19 every 1 month.

I guess people can't read and its a trial so they get an email sent to them that they can cancel from disclosing the price.
Or is it to hard to cancel on a trial?

Personally I don't think surfers are that dumb.
before cross sells the retention and chargebacks were about the same.

I think we need to censor the free stuff so people have to pay for it. Just my 2 cents

I wish people could give solutions to change things. you guys think its just cross sells and high subscriptions.

I think its something bigger like Smart surfers and a shit load of free porn out there causing it.

You have 2 of them

Special Offer to New Members!!!
Click here to signup for a 4 day NO CHARGE Membership to School Girls Four Day Trial Subscription. After 4 days, Membership renews automatically at $36.19 every 1 month.

Click here to signup for a 4 day NO CHARGE Membership to Teen Cumers No Charge Four Day Trial Membership. After 4 days, Membership renews automatically at $36.19 every 1 month.

Not too mention the base subscription?

Your trial membership for somesite - Three Day Trial Membership will begin as soon as your transaction is complete.
Your price is $4.95 for 3 days.
Thereafter you will be charged $37.12 for every 1 month(s) until cancelled.

Lets assume the surfer is an idiot, like most of them are, and does not understand any of this and doesnt cancel the trials.. You will be in heavy chargeback zone.

4.95 (initial)
37.12 recurred from inital trial
39.12 (cross sale 1 after 4 days)
39.12 (cross sale 2 after 4 days)

$120.31 charged to the average idiots credit card. It is this reason I vote that the adult industry brought this upon themselves, too much greed.

theking · 07-14-2003, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

now that can be a problem if abused and made so it can't be read.

but I don't think this is the major problem for chargebacks.
just like visa and mastercard going to the root of what they need to do to shake us .

We need to do the same with the surfers and give them less free stuff and censor everything. Like I said this is just my opinion.
it's supply and demand

You have mentioned "free stuff" several times. What does the amount of free porn that is available have to do with CB's?

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pipecrew

You have 2 of them

Special Offer to New Members!!!
Click here to signup for a 4 day NO CHARGE Membership to School Girls Four Day Trial Subscription. After 4 days, Membership renews automatically at $36.19 every 1 month.

Click here to signup for a 4 day NO CHARGE Membership to Teen Cumers No Charge Four Day Trial Membership. After 4 days, Membership renews automatically at $36.19 every 1 month.

Not too mention the base subscription?

Your trial membership for somesite - Three Day Trial Membership will begin as soon as your transaction is complete.
Your price is $4.95 for 3 days.
Thereafter you will be charged $37.12 for every 1 month(s) until cancelled.

Lets assume the surfer is an idiot, like most of them are, and does not understand any of this and doesnt cancel the trials.. You will be in heavy chargeback zone.

4.95 (initial)
37.12 recurred from inital trial
39.12 (cross sale 1 after 4 days)
39.12 (cross sale 2 after 4 days)

$120.31 charged to the average idiots credit card. It is this reason I vote that the adult industry brought this upon themselves, too much greed.

this is where we don't agree.. I don't think surfers are dumb
if they can't read they wouldn't be able to join.

they can check or uncheck those boxes

how about this can you ask your friends if they would pay for porn.
I want to know there response.

your right cross sells might have something to do with chargebacks but I think its a small %

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theking

You have mentioned "free stuff" several times. What does the amount of free porn that is available have to do with CB's?

lets start with censoring the free stuff and programs wouldn't have to use free trials etc.

and maybe if they can't get it free they might pay and retain better then maybe there would be les deceptive marketing.

we need to start at the root of it. it's all about Supply and demand
how can we profit if they can get it all free. all they need is something to spank to.

Just like visa and mastercard is doing with us.

Paul Markham · 07-14-2003, 12:02 PM

There is little we can do about the guy that has every intention of charging back or the fraudulent card.

All we can do is make sure our CC processors scrub, we don't let any guy run an affiliate program. Unless we do it the way the CC processors do it, hold back 15% for 6 months.

What we can do is make sure the surfer knows it's $1.99 for 24 hours though only 30 minutes actually inside the site. What he sees on the tour he gets inside. I would bet most charge backs are for these two reasons.

The problem is simple, the Internet is changing. 18 months ago I was told the surfer wants garbage, he just wants the highest pile of content for the least money the webmaster can buy it for, that any idiot with a camera can be a content provider.

Well those days are gone, the adult surfer is the biggest moving market in the Net. He'll spend 3 months looking and downloading a site then move on. So if he comes out of a quality site where he's respected and goes into a site which clearly sees him as someone to be conned, what do you think he will do?

Can't risk that with a 1% ceiling.

theking · 07-14-2003, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

lets start with censoring the free stuff and programs wouldn't have to use free trials etc.

and maybe if they can't get it free they might pay and retain better then maybe there would be les deceptive marketing.

we need to start at the root of it. it's all about Supply and demand
how can we profit if they can get it all free. all they need is something to spank to.

Just like visa and mastercard is doing with us.

I think that stopping the flow of free porn is analogous to putting the toothpaste back into the tube...a virtual immpossibilty.

And deceptive marketing is wrong with, or without, the availability of free porn. There are consequences for deceptive marketing and one consequence comes in the form of CB's.

FATPad · 07-14-2003, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

and maybe if they can't get it free they might pay and retain better then maybe there would be les deceptive marketing.

Maybe people who need to stoop to deceptive marketing should either a) build a better quality product or b) go away.

Blaming other people because someone needs to lie to get sales is lame. People need to be responsible for their own actions.

easyfun · 07-14-2003, 12:38 PM

If the problem was all of the choices for the poll, then all sites would show: (% wise)
Similar chargeback ratios -
Similar fraudulent partner webmaster scams
Similar fraudulent customer scams.

No maths involved - The figures would even themselves out in the end.

Problem is - The figures do not even themselves out at all.

Any pornlord can come here and give his reasons why this, why that, what about...

At the end of the day, Visa are not pornlords - They have the most experienced banking brains in the business - They also employ some of the top business brains too -

When they say there is a problem in certain areas of our business - I assume they have done an in depth study over several months. Checking and cross checking several stats etc.
Who the fuck here has the business accumen to tell them they have it wrong?
They obviously see some areas which causes some programmes to have much higher chargebacks than others.

basschick · 07-14-2003, 12:54 PM

many people keep saying it's cross sales that are the problem. i'd rather hear from someone from a processor about this. considering that epoch is cutting out free trials but not cross sales, and that jettis and ccbill offer cross sales, that leads me to think it's "free" that is the problem - not cross sales.

roger v, do you have people with your sites offered as cross sales on their join forms? if so, are you seeing any extra problems with those cross sales becoming chargebacks?

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by basschick
many people keep saying it's cross sales that are the problem. i'd rather hear from someone from a processor about this. considering that epoch is cutting out free trials but not cross sales, and that jettis and ccbill offer cross sales, that leads me to think it's "free" that is the problem - not cross sales.

roger v, do you have people with your sites offered as cross sales on their join forms? if so, are you seeing any extra problems with those cross sales becoming chargebacks?

no we don't see a higher % like I said the % is the same even when we didn't do cross sales.

You guys think all that free porn out there is not the problem?

what if gas was free would you pay for it. even if they raise prices you still pay for it why? cause it makes it easier for you to get around, you don't really need it there is the bus system etc. but it makes it more convenient.

If they couldn't get the porn free they would pay for it. unless they wanted to drive to the neariest video store.

free porn was made to tease them to upsell to a paysite or something right?
all I'm saying is if we censor it they will pay for it. cause there would be nowhere else to get it.

Removing free trials and cross sales will not stop chargebacks

censoring the free porn would make them have to pay to see something. then its up to the Paysites to be good enough to retain them. and with less free porn = Higher payouts cause the retention might go up.

or maybe i just don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.
I remember the good old days when joins where rolling in but then there wasn't as much free stuff either don't get me wrong there was some.
But now we make it super simple for them to spank it without having to pay a dime.

49thParallel · 07-14-2003, 02:47 PM

Companies like yours who think that everyone else is to blame. Seems to me that the problem is as close as your own backyard!

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theking

I think that stopping the flow of free porn is analogous to putting the toothpaste back into the tube...a virtual immpossibilty.

And deceptive marketing is wrong with, or without, the availability of free porn. There are consequences for deceptive marketing and one consequence comes in the form of CB's.

quik question does anyone think this is a deceptive site?

http://www.buttmagic.com/defaultD.php

If we worked together we could censor the free porn I'm not saying remove it all but maybe not show pink for free.

or since they see free shit before they get to us which is the case most of the time should I show more hardcore on the pages maybe they will join.

or do we censor our home pages after they came from seeing it all
free maybe they will join.

Is anyone getting my point or am I just wasting my time?

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 49thParallel
Companies like yours who think that everyone else is to blame. Seems to me that the problem is as close as your own backyard!

No you just don't get it... I'm not worried about the 1%
we are way under.

what I'm saying is converting more traffic and what we can do to increase retention.

What is your average retention? and chargeback %

I have nothing to hide I have always been out spoken. you can see what we do and we are way under 1%

I'm trying to get to the root of it? not trim the tree

how long have you been in the biz and how long have you had pay sites?

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 03:08 PM

I guess I'm wasting my time back to business as normal

If anyone needs Free content for there members section
get strokemag for free at Pornkings. it's basically a full members section for your paysite.
It might help your trial to go active, retain members longer or even lower your chargebacks.

It's free to all our affilates

send me an email to get it today Roger at Pornkings.com

Tornado · 07-14-2003, 07:41 PM

1st of all FREE TRIALS are here to stay!

As long as the card associations dont kill them all together AND there are other options to 3rd party processors there will be free trials and upsells. I think if we just hold tight we will see that a few programs (dont wanna name them, look around) are already using their own merchant accounts and several other programs will be acquiring them.

This may end up hurting the 3rd party industry in the long run. Do your research! DO NOT assume that because a program lowers payouts that this means they are making less profit! It might be quite the contrary. Also you might wanna look up the definition of price fixing as i dont have the time or energy to explain it now.

Sly_RJ · 07-14-2003, 07:58 PM

Porn is an impulse purchase, is it not?

I'm surfing The Hun, I happen upon a gallery with an incredible blonde babe. Long luscious legs, a nice tight and toned ass, with a beautiful pair of 34C tata's. Instantly my pecker pops up and I feel like beating my meat. I need more. I need to see those sweet and tender pussy lips being ripped apart by a rock hard cock.

I see a link on the gallery that says "click for more". I click, and get ready to sign up. I land on the join page and see a bunch of writing about "free trials" and "free porn". I think "sweet!" But, the gallery did such a great job at getting my dick stiff, I need to get inside the site as quickly as possible. I ignore the free stuff for now, thinking maybe I'll check it later after I spank it.

I join. I get charged for the original membership, fine. Then I get charged for "free trials", wtf? Why would I get charged for free trials? Fuck it, I'm not paying for something that's supposed to be free, something I didn't even want. Charge back.

--

A couple of you are saying "oh, it's the surfers responsibility to read everything listed". Sure, fine, maybe it is. But at the same time, you damn well know that one of the main selling points of porn is the impulse buy. You want to get that surfer inside your site as quickly as possible, and so do they. When their cock is in their hand and they're ready for more porn, they aren't thinking clearly, they want pussy now. At this vulnerable state, they click through the site as quickly as possible to get more porn, ignoring all rules.

Now I'll admit, when I want to join some site (porn or non-porn) I fly through the registration process without reading the terms. Always. Don't know if I have ever read any. I consider myself to be a responsible consumer, I know that when I'm buying something that I should be held accountable for whatever those terms say.

So, if I buy something from your site and you pull some shady tricks with me in your terms, you'll still get your money. But you can bet your ass that I will NEVER buy from you or anyone associated with you again. Fuck that. Break my trust barrier? Fuck you. You'll never get it back.

--

Yeh, we have our consumers fucking over paysite companies. And we have our paysite companies fucking over our consumers.

Who really has the right to bitch?

Tornado · 07-14-2003, 08:55 PM

I know whenever i buy something online i read the join page. I dont understand how a member could miss the legal ease. Thats assuming they read it AND understand it. Its possible to NOT read the actual terms and conditions, join a free trial and get away with not paying. If you read the cc page and the subsequent emails. Am i giving surfers too much credit?

I support upsells because i know them to be a very valuable marketing/income generating tool when used appropriately and responsibly. However, i think a upsell to another site should almost always (which is pretty strong for me) be less expensive than the original site. In some cases, depending on the actual upsell product, considerably less than the charge for the initial site.

Pornkings · 07-15-2003, 10:34 AM

funny how most of you think its number 2.

Tipsy · 07-15-2003, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by easyfun
If the problem was all of the choices for the poll, then all sites would show: (% wise)
Similar chargeback ratios -
Similar fraudulent partner webmaster scams
Similar fraudulent customer scams.

That really is the most stupid statement I've seen for a long while.

TDF · 07-15-2003, 10:47 AM

I AM VERY PROUD TO SAY I HAVENT HAD A SINGLE CHARGEBACK ALL YEAR TO DATE!

johnny5 · 07-15-2003, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings
funny how most of you think its number 2.

its the deceptive marketing way more than crosssales, those should have been 2 seperate options.

SunTzu · 07-15-2003, 10:56 AM

I wonder how many chargebacks a company like freecreditreport.com gets? They advertise heavily on TV/radio that you get your credit report free, no mention of a fee at the end of the trial. And their fee is something like $80.

Pornkings · 07-15-2003, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by johnny5

its the deceptive marketing way more than crosssales, those should have been 2 seperate options.

true but by the time I hit make a poll I couldn't go back and add more. lol

I think its all of the above there are many reasons some more for others.

I'm going to give you guys an example of what is being done out there and its very hard to catch the fraudulant webmasters unless you watch your stats closely.
I don't want to reveal how we catch them here but programs need to have a meeting and work together to put a stop to it.
maybe make a board where we can all post the cheaters and then each sponsor can check and monitor that acount if they are in there system.

from what I here thru the grape vine is these guys put up fake pay sites. the surfer goes and tries to join, they put all ther info in and when its done they are not excepted because there card was bad etc.

then they have all the info with the CC and then they run it thru everyones system. so the surfer gets the bill and charges back.

these guys can run one card thru 10 programs and make like $300 of each one. we credit them and payout and don't realize it till the next month when all there cards start chargeing back

by the time you catch them they have a new front and go thru another 10 programs. etc.
just imagine how many programs are out there and how many surfers they can scam. we need to put an end to it and work together.

and normally they don't just have one acount with you they have multiple acounts and only get like 1-4 sales thru each one daily.
so its hard to catch they don't hit you with all at once under one acount. etc

Carrie · 07-15-2003, 11:42 AM

Ack. That's just... evil.

Pornkings · 07-15-2003, 11:46 AM

kinda hard to catch them before they hit your system up. because we would have to join sites to see which ones are fake fronts.

the best thing for us to do is stick together and communicate more to put a stop to it. every program has there own way of flaging fraudulant acounts. now we need to help each other.

some programs might not have the advanced stats to do this but at least we can do the work for some and help eachother. using a board or something for programs.
and there are many types of programs out there not just PPS
if there is a program there is webmasters who have figured out a way to scam it. like anything else

Carrie · 07-15-2003, 11:51 AM

Maybe you guys need to remember back to the days when you were a surfer. Stop "understanding how things work" as a webmaster when you get into the member's area, and look at it as a surfer.

1. If it says I get A, B, and C on your tour, then when I login to the member's area, make sure I can see A, B, and C plainly. Don't make me look for it. Don't *even* lie to me and it's not there.

2. Advertise free live chat? Better give me FREE live chat then. It's okay if she's in a bra and panties and won't even show a nipple unless I go private and fork out the $$... she's still LIVE and she's still FREE. Don't make me sign up for something else or pass through HomeSexNetwork's $1 registration thing. I see that $1 registration, my first thought is "Hey, it was supposed to be FREE! WTF? What else am I gonna have to pay for here?"

3. Don't make me see the same exact thing everytime I log in. Give me something fresh and new. A picture of the day. Some little personal-type text. A thumb representing the latest picture gallery or movie that's been added. You say there's updates, *show* me that there are updates.

4. Make it easy to find the cancel button. Maybe my transmission blew this morning and I really need that $30 for the next month, but I'll join up again after this personal shit settles down. So make it easy for me to cancel, and then when shit is okay I'll come back and join. Don't make it easy for me to cancel? Well then, my only option is to call the card company...

5. Don't pre-check anything on my join page. I want to join your site, the one I just saw the tour for, not some other site that I have never seen. Treat me right. I'm your customer. Charge me what you tell me on the tour it's going to cost, and nothing more. If you establish trust with me and don't fuck me over, I'll be more likely to buy from you again.

It's simple stuff, guys.
We can't help the fucktards who purposely join and then chargeback because they've learned that Visa gives them a get-out-of-paying-free card with every purchase they make.
But we *can* keep regular Joe Schmoe surfer from charging back just by remembering what it's like to be him.

Carrie · 07-15-2003, 11:56 AM

Btw Rog I *have* asked non-porn friends (all guys) if they had ever joined a porn site and all 7 of them (they were in a group at the time) said "Why the hell would I do that? I can get all the hardcore shit I want for free!"
And then of course they started sharing URLs like Thumbzilla, Sublime, and TheHun.

Pornkings · 07-15-2003, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Carrie
Btw Rog I *have* asked non-porn friends (all guys) if they had ever joined a porn site and all 7 of them (they were in a group at the time) said "Why the hell would I do that? I can get all the hardcore shit I want for free!"
And then of course they started sharing URLs like Thumbzilla, Sublime, and TheHun.

LMAO exactly my point. thanks for the post. I ask my friends all the time and get the same response.

thats why I think we need to censor the free shit so they have to pay for it somewhere. it should only be a tease with no pink.
I don't think it would be hard to do if the industry saw it as a way of profiting more.

we need to look at things in the long run not blame one or the other.

we all have a part in this to make our industry more excepted or at least get the gov off our backs.

We censor all our paysites thats why I have to give them a great deal to get them to try it out. thats why we launched Porn4abuck
a full trial for a month.

example of one of our sites http://www.buttmagic.com/defaultD.php trying to do my part and not give the golden goose away

Pornkings · 07-15-2003, 12:38 PM

alot of people are choosing
Porn sites having free trials and cross sells etc. deceptive marketing

I don't think your looking at the big picture on why sponsors have to word things to gain a member.

we need to get to the root of it all and I think its all the free hardcore out there

why have paysites if surfers can get it free with no age verification

something I posted a long time ago.. I new this was all coming
http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...ghlight=rogerv

thats why I had to make a new business model and give the surfers a great deal. I have to move with the industry but I think its time we clean it up in many ways

thetrog · 07-15-2003, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

Alot of people are choosing:

Porn sites having free trials and cross sells etc. deceptive marketing

Interesting to see what people really think versus what is posted.

I never would have guessed that a large number of webmasters would have voted for that explanation.

It definitely speaks volumes.

FATPad · 07-15-2003, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings
alot of people are choosing
Porn sites having free trials and cross sells etc. deceptive marketing

I don't think your looking at the big picture on why sponsors have to word things to gain a member.

we need to get to the root of it all and I think its all the free hardcore out there

why have paysites if surfers can get it free with no age verification

something I posted a long time ago.. I new this was all coming
http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...ghlight=rogerv

thats why I had to make a new business model and give the surfers a great deal. I have to move with the industry but I think its time we clean it up in many ways

So now you're trying to blame TGP's and free porn for paysites have sneaky billing?

You know what the problem is? Too damn many paysites that are boring and unoriginal whose product isn't worth shit, so the only way they can make money is by trying to fuck surfers over.

MetaMan · 07-15-2003, 04:17 PM

crappy members section,
only reason why people sign up is they want "more" and members areas suck ass!

Pornkings · 07-15-2003, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MetaMan
crappy members section,
only reason why people sign up is they want "more" and members areas suck ass!

You guys just don't get it...

Not sure about other programs but we spend alot of money on our members section monthly.

Why would someone stay a member if they can spank it for free!

Like I said ask all your friends if they would pay for it and see what they say

Btw Rog I *have* asked non-porn friends (all guys) if they had ever joined a porn site and all 7 of them (they were in a group at the time) said "Why the hell would I do that? I can get all the hardcore shit I want for free!"
And then of course they started sharing URLs like Thumbzilla, Sublime, and TheHun.

Pornkings · 07-15-2003, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FATPad
So now you're trying to blame TGP's and free porn for paysites have sneaky billing?

You know what the problem is? Too damn many paysites that are boring and unoriginal whose product isn't worth shit, so the only way they can make money is by trying to fuck surfers over.

boring and unoriginal give me a break.

what does it take to get you off? Let me know cause I bet I can find it so you don't have to pay for it

49thParallel · 07-15-2003, 06:23 PM

Looks like everyone is still wasting their time on this one. Pornking has decided that his sales strategy is fair and nobody's going to change his mind.

This in a nutshell is the real problem in this industry. The snake oil salesmen have somehow convinced themselves that they are clever marketers and businessmen. Back in the real world, anyone with a shred of "normal" business ethics would look at these stratagies and know that they are fundamentally wrong.

On a separate note, has anyone ever looked at the T & C's of almost every free or paid trial site out there. You will usually find the cancellation terms somewhere around word 1,000 +, usually prededed by the standard Copyright...you will not share these pictures...blah blah blah. Even the most diehard legal beagle will close the page long before they get to the part which tells them that their trial most likely needs to be cancelled and sometimes 24 hours before end of trial, to avoid rebill.

Think this is fair..give your head a shake!!

Pornkings · 07-15-2003, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 49thParallel
Looks like everyone is still wasting their time on this one. Pornking has decided that his sales strategy is fair and nobody's going to change his mind.

This in a nutshell is the real problem in this industry. The snake oil salesmen have somehow convinced themselves that they are clever marketers and businessmen. Back in the real world, anyone with a shred of "normal" business ethics would look at these stratagies and know that they are fundamentally wrong.

On a separate note, has anyone ever looked at the T & C's of almost every free or paid trial site out there. You will usually find the cancellation terms somewhere around word 1,000 +, usually prededed by the standard Copyright...you will not share these pictures...blah blah blah. Even the most diehard legal beagle will close the page long before they get to the part which tells them that their trial most likely needs to be cancelled and sometimes 24 hours before end of trial, to avoid rebill.

Think this is fair..give your head a shake!!

since your such a guru on what is right and what is not.
what is your paysite or do you only promote adultfriendfinder.
since thats the place to meet your dream date.

has anyone or anyone here know of someone finding there dream date on adultfriendfinder as anyone gotten laid form that site. anything fell free to post it.

What is deceptive about Porn4aBuck? please enlighten me.

Let me guess the cross sells? everyone can see them plain as day. if they were a problem don't you think the proccessors would remove them completely. and if they do I don't have a problem with it.
that just means lower payouts for the webmasters and the average retentian will still be 2 months

unless you have a plan to help everyone here please feel free to post it

all you do is complain

FATPad · 07-15-2003, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

boring and unoriginal give me a break.

what does it take to get you off? Let me know cause I bet I can find it so you don't have to pay for it

So why do some sites do well on TGP traffic?

CFF. Did well.

Oxcash. Did well.

Nasty Dollars. Did well.

Lightspeed. Did well.

Quiet's site. Does well on gallery traffic.

What do they all have in common? It's not a set of leased feeds and it's not the fact they have 100 different "niche" tours.

Pornkings · 07-15-2003, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FATPad
So why do some sites do well on TGP traffic?

CFF. Did well.

Oxcash. Did well.

Nasty Dollars. Did well.

Lightspeed. Did well.

Quiet's site. Does well on gallery traffic.

What do they all have in common? It's not a set of leased feeds and it's not the fact they have 100 different "niche" tours.

what do you mean by did well.

did well to convert it?

I don't know what there average retention is maybe they will post it

just cause they converted because someone just wanted to see whats inside doesn't mean its good enough to keep paying for it

unless they can only jack off to there content. they will realize they can get it free where they came from.

most people live pay check to pay check they don't have the money to pay for it. they are just curious and its an impluse buy.

so what should we do to keep them paying? I think we need to censor the free shit just my

johnny5 · 07-15-2003, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

what do you mean by did well.

I don't know what there average retention is maybe they will post it

just cause they converted because someone just wanted to see whats inside doesn't mean its good enough to keep paying for it

unless they can only jack off to there content. they will realize they can get it free where they came from.

most people live pay check to pay check they don't have the money to pay for it. they are just curious and its na impluse buy.

so what should we do to keep them paying? I think we need to censor the free shit just my

i keep seeing you say to censor the free shit. but the problem is, us webmasters have to do that and they will decrease our signup count for a longtime. while we wait for everyone else to censor their pics/etc. but your gonna still be doing the same thing your doing now... making the same money you do now. its easy for you to say thats the problem because you dont have to do anything to fix it....

Pornkings · 07-15-2003, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by johnny5

i keep seeing you say to censor the free shit. but the problem is, us webmasters have to do that and they will decrease our signup count for a longtime. while we wait for everyone else to censor their pics/etc. but your gonna still be doing the same thing your doing now... making the same money you do now. its easy for you to say thats the problem because you dont have to do anything to fix it....

your right thats not my thing i run paysites.

I'm just saying if you guys want to make more.
the free porn needs to be censored I'm not saying remove it just censor the pink.

that means you and I will both make more

the way things are headed will both be making less

and how will it decrease your signups? I don't get it. it will increase them cause they will pay to see more

49thParallel · 07-15-2003, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings
unless you have a plan to help everyone here please feel free to post it

all you do is complain

My plan is simple...honest practices...no tricks. Yes, the profit will be significantly reduced for both the program owners and the webmasters who promote the sites....but still way above the ROI you could expect from any mainstream business.

Does this mean no paid trials? Not at all. A mainstream (I should add- an "honest" mainstream business) would price the product trials so that these were also part of the total profit picture. And then with CLEAR disclosure the consumer would be able to make an educated choice as to whether or not to continue his/her membership. If they cancel, well so be it. The paid trial will still contribute to the bottom line.

And while you are at it...and this certainly doesn't just apply to your program...the elimination of outrageously high payments to webmasters for free or paid trials would certainly be a step in the right direction. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that $30 + paid to webmasters for trials couldn't be supported without a deceptive strategy.

And no, I don't just promote AFF, but I DO only promote programs with rev share - no trials - no cross sells - in a nutshell - quality honest programs.

johnny5 · 07-15-2003, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

your right thats not my thing i run paysites.

I'm just saying if you guys want to make more.
the free porn needs to be censored I'm not saying remove it just censor the pink.

that means you and I will both make more

the way things are headed will both be making less

and how will it decrease your signups? I don't get it. it will increase them cause they will pay to see more

it will decrease cuz of all the other webmasters not censoring.... they are just gonna close our pages and skip to the next

Pornkings · 07-15-2003, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by johnny5

it will decrease cuz of all the other webmasters not censoring.... they are just gonna close our pages and skip to the next

Oh I see what you mean..

hmmm let me think about it. unless anyone has any ideas

PornBroker · 07-15-2003, 07:45 PM

In our case fraudulent webmasters caused the majority of chargebacks by far. If you are running a program and paying a high PPS or even a high recurring % (a couple of months worth of full memberships mixed with trials etc ) you will get stung - as we did.

Chargebacks are *miniscule* for all our internal traffic.

Having said that, I have had the *good fortune* of having my sites included on a stack of password sites lately, so while I have been busy scanning those lists and removing the usernames etc I have checked out a HEAP of members areas...

Without a hint of exaggeration, every one of them has been a fuckin' disgrace!!

I mean..
- having bright flashing banner gifs above the plug-in movie viewing screens - trying to upsell something else so you can't even view the movies properly.
- having dialler popups *inside* members areas that you can't get rid of.
- not to mention the standard half a dozen picture sets, a couple of videos and some second rate movie plug-ins....being the sum total of the content.

So if I ever got conned into parting with money for any of this shit - I would seek a refund instantly.

Pornkings · 07-15-2003, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 49thParallel

My plan is simple...honest practices...no tricks. Yes, the profit will be significantly reduced for both the program owners and the webmasters who promote the sites....but still way above the ROI you could expect from any mainstream business.

Does this mean no paid trials? Not at all. A mainstream (I should add- an "honest" mainstream business) would price the product trials so that these were also part of the total profit picture. And then with CLEAR disclosure the consumer would be able to make an educated choice as to whether or not to continue his/her membership. If they cancel, well so be it. The paid trial will still contribute to the bottom line.

And while you are at it...and this certainly doesn't just apply to your program...the elimination of outrageously high payments to webmasters for free or paid trials would certainly be a step in the right direction. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that $30 + paid to webmasters for trials couldn't be supported without a deceptive strategy.

And no, I don't just promote AFF, but I DO only promote programs with rev share - no trials - no cross sells - in a nutshell - quality honest programs.

I can live with that. we already have Clear disclosure

but the only way people will not cancel is if they can't get it free

supply and demand

I don't no of any other industry that gives the golden goose away
then expects people to pay for it.

why do you think napster is gone.

Sly_RJ · 07-15-2003, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

I can live with that. we already have Clear disclosure

but the only way people will not cancel is if they can't get it free

supply and demand

I don't no of any other industry that gives the golden goose away
then expects people to pay for it.

why do you think napster is gone.

Uhh... what? You're telling me Napster is no longer operating because of supply and demand?

Pornkings · 07-15-2003, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sly_RJ

Uhh... what? You're telling me Napster is no longer operating because of supply and demand?

I'm telling you the music industry wasn't going to give away all there music for free. why even be in business then.

they cut off that free supply so now they have to pay for it simple

Sly_RJ · 07-15-2003, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

I'm telling you the music industry wasn't going to give away all there music for free. why even be in business then.

they cut off that free supply so now they have to pay for it simple

What?

The music industry was never giving any music away free, let alone all of it. It was the common consumer who was giving the music away free. And the free supply wasn't cut off, it's still there. People are still taking the music free off the Internet, nobody is paying except the Mac users with that new service.

Napster wasn't shut down because the music industry cut off their free music supply. They were ordered to shut down.

Pornkings · 07-15-2003, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sly_RJ

What?

The music industry was never giving any music away free, let alone all of it. It was the common consumer who was giving the music away free. And the free supply wasn't cut off, it's still there. People are still taking the music free off the Internet, nobody is paying except the Mac users with that new service.

Napster wasn't shut down because the music industry cut off their free music supply. They were ordered to shut down.

Ok and why were they ordered? why would they do that to such a great idea?

http://pittsford.monroe.edu/jefferso.../EconMain.html

Pornkings · 07-15-2003, 08:07 PM

Many times advertisers try to appeal to consumers in such a way that the consumers feel they needs certain goods or services when in fact they only want them.

I got it we need to make surfers feel they need Porn

http://pittsford.monroe.edu/jefferso.../NeedWant.html

ok I'm getting tired be back later

View Poll Results: what really is causing chargebacks
savvy surfers knowing how to chargeback and not having to pay	29	16.57%
Porn sites having free trials and cross sells etc. deceptive marketing	65	37.14%
theives running stolen cards thru online companies	7	4.00%
all of the above	74	42.29%
Voters: 175. You may not vote on this poll

07-14-2003, 12:02 PM	#55
Paul Markham Too old to care Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: On the sofa, watching TV or doing my jigsaws. Posts: 52,943	There is little we can do about the guy that has every intention of charging back or the fraudulent card. All we can do is make sure our CC processors scrub, we don't let any guy run an affiliate program. Unless we do it the way the CC processors do it, hold back 15% for 6 months. What we can do is make sure the surfer knows it's $1.99 for 24 hours though only 30 minutes actually inside the site. What he sees on the tour he gets inside. I would bet most charge backs are for these two reasons. The problem is simple, the Internet is changing. 18 months ago I was told the surfer wants garbage, he just wants the highest pile of content for the least money the webmaster can buy it for, that any idiot with a camera can be a content provider. Well those days are gone, the adult surfer is the biggest moving market in the Net. He'll spend 3 months looking and downloading a site then move on. So if he comes out of a quality site where he's respected and goes into a site which clearly sees him as someone to be conned, what do you think he will do? Can't risk that with a 1% ceiling. __________________ Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500. PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

07-14-2003, 12:38 PM	#58
easyfun Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Somewhere Posts: 731	If the problem was all of the choices for the poll, then all sites would show: (% wise) Similar chargeback ratios - Similar fraudulent partner webmaster scams Similar fraudulent customer scams. No maths involved - The figures would even themselves out in the end. Problem is - The figures do not even themselves out at all. Any pornlord can come here and give his reasons why this, why that, what about... At the end of the day, Visa are not pornlords - They have the most experienced banking brains in the business - They also employ some of the top business brains too - When they say there is a problem in certain areas of our business - I assume they have done an in depth study over several months. Checking and cross checking several stats etc. Who the fuck here has the business accumen to tell them they have it wrong? They obviously see some areas which causes some programmes to have much higher chargebacks than others. __________________ <p><embed width="120" height="60" src="http://www.harlotcash.com/harlot_3.swf"><br> </p>

07-14-2003, 03:08 PM	#64
Pornkings Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Roger V Posts: 5,334	I guess I'm wasting my time back to business as normal If anyone needs Free content for there members section get strokemag for free at Pornkings. it's basically a full members section for your paysite. It might help your trial to go active, retain members longer or even lower your chargebacks. It's free to all our affilates send me an email to get it today Roger at Pornkings.com __________________ Pornkings.com

07-14-2003, 07:58 PM	#66
Sly_RJ Live Hard - Die Hard Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Ready to leave... Posts: 17,042	Porn is an impulse purchase, is it not? I'm surfing The Hun, I happen upon a gallery with an incredible blonde babe. Long luscious legs, a nice tight and toned ass, with a beautiful pair of 34C tata's. Instantly my pecker pops up and I feel like beating my meat. I need more. I need to see those sweet and tender pussy lips being ripped apart by a rock hard cock. I see a link on the gallery that says "click for more". I click, and get ready to sign up. I land on the join page and see a bunch of writing about "free trials" and "free porn". I think "sweet!" But, the gallery did such a great job at getting my dick stiff, I need to get inside the site as quickly as possible. I ignore the free stuff for now, thinking maybe I'll check it later after I spank it. I join. I get charged for the original membership, fine. Then I get charged for "free trials", wtf? Why would I get charged for free trials? Fuck it, I'm not paying for something that's supposed to be free, something I didn't even want. Charge back. -- A couple of you are saying "oh, it's the surfers responsibility to read everything listed". Sure, fine, maybe it is. But at the same time, you damn well know that one of the main selling points of porn is the impulse buy. You want to get that surfer inside your site as quickly as possible, and so do they. When their cock is in their hand and they're ready for more porn, they aren't thinking clearly, they want pussy now. At this vulnerable state, they click through the site as quickly as possible to get more porn, ignoring all rules. Now I'll admit, when I want to join some site (porn or non-porn) I fly through the registration process without reading the terms. Always. Don't know if I have ever read any. I consider myself to be a responsible consumer, I know that when I'm buying something that I should be held accountable for whatever those terms say. So, if I buy something from your site and you pull some shady tricks with me in your terms, you'll still get your money. But you can bet your ass that I will NEVER buy from you or anyone associated with you again. Fuck that. Break my trust barrier? Fuck you. You'll never get it back. -- Yeh, we have our consumers fucking over paysite companies. And we have our paysite companies fucking over our consumers. Who really has the right to bitch? __________________ PHAT SERVERS - Quality dedicated hosting at a quality price! sly AT phatservers DOT com - 147479144

07-14-2003, 12:54 PM	#59
basschick Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: el lay, ca usa Posts: 2,540	many people keep saying it's cross sales that are the problem. i'd rather hear from someone from a processor about this. considering that epoch is cutting out free trials but not cross sales, and that jettis and ccbill offer cross sales, that leads me to think it's "free" that is the problem - not cross sales. roger v, do you have people with your sites offered as cross sales on their join forms? if so, are you seeing any extra problems with those cross sales becoming chargebacks?

07-14-2003, 02:47 PM	#61
49thParallel So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,197	Companies like yours who think that everyone else is to blame. Seems to me that the problem is as close as your own backyard!

07-14-2003, 07:41 PM	#65
Tornado Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 287	1st of all FREE TRIALS are here to stay! As long as the card associations dont kill them all together AND there are other options to 3rd party processors there will be free trials and upsells. I think if we just hold tight we will see that a few programs (dont wanna name them, look around) are already using their own merchant accounts and several other programs will be acquiring them. This may end up hurting the 3rd party industry in the long run. Do your research! DO NOT assume that because a program lowers payouts that this means they are making less profit! It might be quite the contrary. Also you might wanna look up the definition of price fixing as i dont have the time or energy to explain it now.

07-14-2003, 08:55 PM	#67
Tornado Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 287	I know whenever i buy something online i read the join page. I dont understand how a member could miss the legal ease. Thats assuming they read it AND understand it. Its possible to NOT read the actual terms and conditions, join a free trial and get away with not paying. If you read the cc page and the subsequent emails. Am i giving surfers too much credit? I support upsells because i know them to be a very valuable marketing/income generating tool when used appropriately and responsibly. However, i think a upsell to another site should almost always (which is pretty strong for me) be less expensive than the original site. In some cases, depending on the actual upsell product, considerably less than the charge for the initial site.

07-15-2003, 10:34 AM	#68
Pornkings Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Roger V Posts: 5,334	funny how most of you think its number 2. __________________ Pornkings.com

07-15-2003, 10:47 AM	#70
TDF Triple OG nigga on GFY Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: in the BP4L family compound Posts: 27,296	I AM VERY PROUD TO SAY I HAVENT HAD A SINGLE CHARGEBACK ALL YEAR TO DATE! __________________ Sig heil

07-15-2003, 10:56 AM	#72
SunTzu Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: the box Posts: 456	I wonder how many chargebacks a company like freecreditreport.com gets? They advertise heavily on TV/radio that you get your credit report free, no mention of a fee at the end of the trial. And their fee is something like $80.

07-15-2003, 11:42 AM	#74
Carrie Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Virgin - nee Posts: 3,162	Ack. That's just... evil.

07-15-2003, 11:46 AM	#75
Pornkings Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Roger V Posts: 5,334	kinda hard to catch them before they hit your system up. because we would have to join sites to see which ones are fake fronts. the best thing for us to do is stick together and communicate more to put a stop to it. every program has there own way of flaging fraudulant acounts. now we need to help each other. some programs might not have the advanced stats to do this but at least we can do the work for some and help eachother. using a board or something for programs. and there are many types of programs out there not just PPS if there is a program there is webmasters who have figured out a way to scam it. like anything else __________________ Pornkings.com

07-15-2003, 11:51 AM	#76
Carrie Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Virgin - nee Posts: 3,162	Maybe you guys need to remember back to the days when you were a surfer. Stop "understanding how things work" as a webmaster when you get into the member's area, and look at it as a surfer. 1. If it says I get A, B, and C on your tour, then when I login to the member's area, make sure I can see A, B, and C plainly. Don't make me look for it. Don't even lie to me and it's not there. 2. Advertise free live chat? Better give me FREE live chat then. It's okay if she's in a bra and panties and won't even show a nipple unless I go private and fork out the $$... she's still LIVE and she's still FREE. Don't make me sign up for something else or pass through HomeSexNetwork's $1 registration thing. I see that $1 registration, my first thought is "Hey, it was supposed to be FREE! WTF? What else am I gonna have to pay for here?" 3. Don't make me see the same exact thing everytime I log in. Give me something fresh and new. A picture of the day. Some little personal-type text. A thumb representing the latest picture gallery or movie that's been added. You say there's updates, show me that there are updates. 4. Make it easy to find the cancel button. Maybe my transmission blew this morning and I really need that $30 for the next month, but I'll join up again after this personal shit settles down. So make it easy for me to cancel, and then when shit is okay I'll come back and join. Don't make it easy for me to cancel? Well then, my only option is to call the card company... 5. Don't pre-check anything on my join page. I want to join your site, the one I just saw the tour for, not some other site that I have never seen. Treat me right. I'm your customer. Charge me what you tell me on the tour it's going to cost, and nothing more. If you establish trust with me and don't fuck me over, I'll be more likely to buy from you again. It's simple stuff, guys. We can't help the fucktards who purposely join and then chargeback because they've learned that Visa gives them a get-out-of-paying-free card with every purchase they make. But we can keep regular Joe Schmoe surfer from charging back just by remembering what it's like to be him.

07-15-2003, 11:56 AM	#77
Carrie Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Virgin - nee Posts: 3,162	Btw Rog I have asked non-porn friends (all guys) if they had ever joined a porn site and all 7 of them (they were in a group at the time) said "Why the hell would I do that? I can get all the hardcore shit I want for free!" And then of course they started sharing URLs like Thumbzilla, Sublime, and TheHun.

07-15-2003, 12:38 PM	#79
Pornkings Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Roger V Posts: 5,334	alot of people are choosing Porn sites having free trials and cross sells etc. deceptive marketing I don't think your looking at the big picture on why sponsors have to word things to gain a member. we need to get to the root of it all and I think its all the free hardcore out there why have paysites if surfers can get it free with no age verification something I posted a long time ago.. I new this was all coming http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...ghlight=rogerv thats why I had to make a new business model and give the surfers a great deal. I have to move with the industry but I think its time we clean it up in many ways __________________ Pornkings.com

07-15-2003, 04:17 PM	#82
MetaMan I AM WEB 2.0 Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,682	crappy members section, only reason why people sign up is they want "more" and members areas suck ass!

07-15-2003, 06:23 PM	#85
49thParallel So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,197	Looks like everyone is still wasting their time on this one. Pornking has decided that his sales strategy is fair and nobody's going to change his mind. This in a nutshell is the real problem in this industry. The snake oil salesmen have somehow convinced themselves that they are clever marketers and businessmen. Back in the real world, anyone with a shred of "normal" business ethics would look at these stratagies and know that they are fundamentally wrong. On a separate note, has anyone ever looked at the T & C's of almost every free or paid trial site out there. You will usually find the cancellation terms somewhere around word 1,000 +, usually prededed by the standard Copyright...you will not share these pictures...blah blah blah. Even the most diehard legal beagle will close the page long before they get to the part which tells them that their trial most likely needs to be cancelled and sometimes 24 hours before end of trial, to avoid rebill. Think this is fair..give your head a shake!!

07-15-2003, 07:45 PM	#94
PornBroker Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 686	In our case fraudulent webmasters caused the majority of chargebacks by far. If you are running a program and paying a high PPS or even a high recurring % (a couple of months worth of full memberships mixed with trials etc ) you will get stung - as we did. Chargebacks are miniscule for all our internal traffic. Having said that, I have had the good fortune of having my sites included on a stack of password sites lately, so while I have been busy scanning those lists and removing the usernames etc I have checked out a HEAP of members areas... Without a hint of exaggeration, every one of them has been a fuckin' disgrace!! I mean.. - having bright flashing banner gifs above the plug-in movie viewing screens - trying to upsell something else so you can't even view the movies properly. - having dialler popups inside members areas that you can't get rid of. - not to mention the standard half a dozen picture sets, a couple of videos and some second rate movie plug-ins....being the sum total of the content. So if I ever got conned into parting with money for any of this shit - I would seek a refund instantly. __________________ please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste...I've been around for a long long year stolen many man's soul and faith...I was around when jesus christ had his moment of doubt and pain...made damn sure that pilate washed his hands and sealed his fate...pleased to meet you hope you guess my name...but's what's puzzling you is the nature of my game...

07-15-2003, 08:07 PM	#100
Pornkings Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Roger V Posts: 5,334	Many times advertisers try to appeal to consumers in such a way that the consumers feel they needs certain goods or services when in fact they only want them. I got it we need to make surfers feel they need Porn http://pittsford.monroe.edu/jefferso.../NeedWant.html ok I'm getting tired be back later __________________ Pornkings.com