what really is causing these chargebacks - GoFuckYourself.com

Pornkings · 07-13-2003, 09:47 PM

I thought this was very interesting
http://209.61.190.23/news2002/nov02/...wednesday.html

is it fraudulant webmasters and people running stolen cards etc. through porn and mainstream?

Are surfers more savvy now and know they can get away with not paying when using a credit card online?

Or do you really think its becasue paysites have a shitty members section or they don't have exclusive content.
maybe its because they have deceptive marketing like Free trials etc.

So who is really to blame? the Surfer, Visa and mastercard or the companies selling the goods

everyone is saying the adult industry did this I don't think so

it seems to be a problem for every online company

TurboAngel · 07-13-2003, 09:55 PM

It all has a part in it!

Pornkings · 07-13-2003, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TurboAngel
It all has a part in it!

Exactly my point...

I'm just tired of people thinking the adult industry is at fault.

so what do we do? any thoughts

eroswebmaster · 07-13-2003, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

Exactly my point...

I'm just tired of people thinking the adult industry is at fault.

so what do we do? any thoughts

everything that is within your control.

BRISK · 07-13-2003, 09:59 PM

deceptive marketing

free memberships that convert to $49.99

pre-checked cross sells

Pornkings · 07-13-2003, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK
deceptive marketing

free memberships that convert to $49.99

pre-checked cross sells

I don't think so... if that is the problem why does mainstream have such a problem.
I think alot of programs need to clamp down on the fraudulant webmasters. i bet most of the chargebacks are from people running stolen cards then the surfer gets there bill and charges back.

Report: E-commerce will bleed $285M in fraud
Nearly $300 million in e-commerce will be lost to holiday fraud scams this year, says a new report from the CyberSource Fraud Survey. About $285 million, or 3 percent of the overall online earnings for 2002, will be siphoned off by credit card hoaxes and the like, even though retail respondents said that they are taking more precautions than they did last year. About one-third of the respondents think credit card fraud will increase this year over last. E-commerce has grown at a tremendous rate this year. Sixty percent of the online companies surveyed by Shop.org and Bizrate.com reported revenue increases of more than a quarter during the first two weeks of November compared to 2001. The fraud problem haunts big companies as well as small. Amazon estimates its fraud rate at about 2.5 percent so far in 2002. More retailers are thus taking precautionary measures. The number of companies using AVS, a credit card verification system, has increased by nearly two-thirds this year to 71 percent. And 59 percent of sites plan to encrypt stored credit card numbers.

heymatty · 07-13-2003, 10:02 PM

spouse disputes charges = high

Sly_RJ · 07-13-2003, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

I don't think so... if that is the problem why does mainstream have such a problem.

Report: E-commerce will bleed $285M in fraud
Nearly $300 million in e-commerce will be lost to holiday fraud scams this year, says a new report from the CyberSource Fraud Survey. About $285 million, or 3 percent of the overall online earnings for 2002, will be siphoned off by credit card hoaxes and the like, even though retail respondents said that they are taking more precautions than they did last year. About one-third of the respondents think credit card fraud will increase this year over last. E-commerce has grown at a tremendous rate this year. Sixty percent of the online companies surveyed by Shop.org and Bizrate.com reported revenue increases of more than a quarter during the first two weeks of November compared to 2001. The fraud problem haunts big companies as well as small. Amazon estimates its fraud rate at about 2.5 percent so far in 2002. More retailers are thus taking precautionary measures. The number of companies using AVS, a credit card verification system, has increased by nearly two-thirds this year to 71 percent. And 59 percent of sites plan to encrypt stored credit card numbers.

Excellent find.

Looks like some people need to go together and hit up congress. It's probably the only way...

jollyperv · 07-13-2003, 10:03 PM

greed

BRISK · 07-13-2003, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings
I don't think so... if that is the problem why does mainstream have such a problem.

You don't think 30 minute free memberships that convert to $49.99/month cause higher chargebacks than normal?

Pornkings · 07-13-2003, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK

You don't think 30 minute free memberships that convert to $49.99/month cause higher chargebacks than normal?

Nope we are well under 1% and we have free trials.

most of our chargebacks come from affiliates we catch trying to run cards thru our system. we shut them down but they hit us up with many acounts having like 1 or 2 sales.

if we get a clamp on that I think we all would be fine.

but its hard to catch them sometimes so its an ongoing battle

Kevin2 · 07-13-2003, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK
deceptive marketing

free memberships that convert to $49.99

pre-checked cross sells

I agree with this. I just checked one of my sites CB's for the past 6 months and my CB's are .004%

Sly_RJ · 07-13-2003, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

Nope we are well under 1% and we have free trials.

most of our chargebacks come from affiliates we catch trying to run cards thru our system. we shut them down but they hit us up with many acounts having like 1 or 2 sales.

if we get a clamp on that I think we all would be fine.
but its hard to catch them sometimes so its an ongoing battle

Looks like the days of approving all affiliates with references may be just around the corner. Fine by me.

Pornkings · 07-13-2003, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK

You don't think 30 minute free memberships that convert to $49.99/month cause higher chargebacks than normal?

they know what the price is after there free trial.

If you went out for dinner at a nice resturant and the bill came out for alot more then you expected and the food was shitty
would you charge back? Probably not and I'm sure this has happend to many of us.

but if you knew you could get away with it like most surfers know they can with paysites. I'm sure everyone would chargeback things that they were not happy with. the dollar amount is differant for all of us.

what if you bought a book for $50 bucks and you weren't happy with it when you were done reading it. Should you be able to chargeback?

Pornkings · 07-13-2003, 10:27 PM

I think if we can stop the fraudulant webmasters and censor the free porn out there we would have less problems.

make the surfer pay for there porn. when they see they can't get it free they will pay. then we won't have to worry about free trials etc.

and Sponsors working together keeping the fraudulant webmasters out will also help alot.

If these two things are done everything else will fall into place.
cut off there supply and see what happens.

and then maybe everyone else will get off our backs

Pornkings · 07-13-2003, 10:48 PM

I can't believe how many of you think its all just
Porn sites having free trials and cross sells etc. deceptive marketing.

I have a question for you to ask your friends maybe you already have.

ask them if they would pay for porn online and see what they say.

Just ask a couple of your friends not in the biz and post there response.

(I bet they will all say why pay when I can get it free)

Timbo · 07-13-2003, 11:03 PM

Good points, Rog

Why don't us sponsors start and share, a database of known fraudulant webmasters.

Pornkings · 07-13-2003, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Timbo
Good points, Rog

Why don't us sponsors start and share, a database of known fraudulant webmasters.

we probably should it was brought up before.

There was a problem of a webmaster or affliate being maliciously put on this fruad list.

but I think it should be built and the only way someone would get blocked or shut off. Is if a few sponsors put them on the list.

then it would be up to each sponsor wether or not to shut them off. wish would be in there best interest

but we need to start working on it together

WiredGuy · 07-13-2003, 11:14 PM

I think the preselected cross-sales really contributed the most to the excessive chargebacks. While surfers can read and unselect the cross-sale, they simply don't bother in my opinion and decide to chargeback the whole set of charges they get. Just my 2 cents...

WG

media · 07-13-2003, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sly_RJ

Excellent find.

Looks like some people need to go together and hit up congress. It's probably the only way...

Man... I am all for this one, like the way back when of the BBS age... You filled out your application, if you were a lame fuck who did not know what you were talking about then your ass was not getting into the BBS.. If you were in the know, then your all good..

Im all for this as well

Media

AaronM · 07-13-2003, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings
I thought this was very interesting
[url]Are surfers more savvy now and know they can get away with not paying when using a credit card online?

I worked as a supervisor for Wells Fargo Credit Card Division for over 3.5 years. I very clearly remember the calls from DMR Internet and Ibill. Of all the calls that were escalated to me, only 1 ever admitted that SHE had actually made the charge.

I used scare tactics to get them to call the companies directly to stop the rebills because I knew they were doing it themselves and were full of shit.

I would tell people that we will be happy to help them dispute the charge and then go into detail about how easy it is to catch the person because of IP's and so forth....And that we would be happy to prosecute ANYBODY we catch who made the charges.

I would also stress the fact that whoever made the charge clearly knew the card owner personally because of the personal info that has to be entered to make the charge in the first place. This of course means that we will be prosecuting your friend and or family member and you will be the one signing for this.

At this point, the typical response went something like this "Oh, I better check with my brother first to make sure that he did not do this."

My favorite ones to fuck with were the mothers who called in because there were re-occurring charges on their son's Student Visa that Mommy and Daddy were paying the bill for.

80%+ of the fraud that was occurring on the Internet back then was done by the cardholder themselves. This is a proven fact, NOT my opinion. I have seen the numbers first hand. I can only assume that this percentage has increased with the popularity of the Internet and the education of surfers on how to fuck the system.

So...Now with all this responsibility and fees being passed to the site owners, WTF are we paying the billing companies for? Customer Service? Yeah right....Just today we had an issue where one of our members was charged but could not access the site. They contacted the billing company and received no help. Finally they emailed us and we got it straightened out. That's not our fucking job.....Most of you would be sick to your stomach if you knew the dollar amount that we pay monthly for our billing service and we are not pushing anywhere near the volume as PornKings or many of the others.

Personally, I hate the idea of a pre-checked cross sell but the fact is that surfers are smarter than we give them credit for. They see the boxes and they leave them checked. Hell, they probably even visit the other sites and then simply forget to cancel in time before they get billed.

This whole situation reminds me of the fuckers who are screaming for tougher gun laws when the government does not do enough to enforce the ones already in place. Start prosecuting some of these fuckers instead of making us site owners eat it. Watch that shit get on the news.

HEADLINE:

Porn companies strike back by prosecuting those who make charges then file fraudulent claims.

These are the fuckers who are committing crimes, not us. Post their fucking pictures on the front page and see how quickly this shit stops.

Does that answer your question Roger?

See you in FL.

theking · 07-13-2003, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK
deceptive marketing

free memberships that convert to $49.99

pre-checked cross sells

I agree and stress deceptive marketing. If I were a surfer and a site promised one thing and then delivered another thing...if I could not get a refund...I too would charge back. In addition if I were a surfer and joined a site only to learn that it was basically a cookie cutter site that had for the most part the same leased content that the previous site had...if I could not get a refund...I too would charge back.

When these password lists are posted...sometimes with literally hundreds of sites...I usually check some of them out and if I were to have signed up for 90% of them if I could not get a refund...I too would charge back. They are so shitty and so often have the same tired content combined, with deceptive promotion, they are basically just a rip off.

I return products that I purchase from the brick and motar businesses that I am not happy with, for one reason or another, and with 99% of the businesses it is not a problem.

Now there are some that have posted that someone has been a member for weeks if not months and then charged back and that person is a crook. Some one that has been a member for a short period of time and is simply unhappy with the content being offered and cannot get a response from the Webmaster or Billing service...let alone get a refund...in my opinion a charge back should be legitimate.

So bottom line...in my opinion...is deceptive promotion.hahahahahahahaha cutter sites with basically the same content as a hundred other sites...and shitty sites that don't even rise to that level...is the reason for a charge back...in other words a very unhappy customer.

Penthouse_mike · 07-13-2003, 11:58 PM

The internet is the best tool ever invented to commit fraud.

Surfers deny visiting and paying for adult content because there is a stigma against consuming pornography and onanism

Site owners make join pages where there isn't even a checkbox for the cross sale, and the cancel page doesn't work because the adult web attracts a different type of merchant who is more driven than most by short term profitability and a 'breaking the rules' or anti-authoritarian mindset.

noshit · 07-14-2003, 12:49 AM

AaronM hits it on the head. Read again what he said.

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by noshit
AaronM hits it on the head. Read again what he said.

yep some of you get it and some don't.

Have you ever gone out for diner and the food sucked. did you just not pay for it or do you chargeback?

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theking

I agree and stress deceptive marketing. If I were a surfer and a site promised one thing and then delivered another thing...if I could not get a refund...I too would charge back. In addition if I were a surfer and joined a site only to learn that it was basically a cookie cutter site that had for the most part the same leased content that the previous site had...if I could not get a refund...I too would charge back.

When these password lists are posted...sometimes with literally hundreds of sites...I usually check some of them out and if I were to have signed up for 90% of them if I could not get a refund...I too would charge back. They are so shitty and so often have the same tired content combined, with deceptive promotion, they are basically just a rip off.

I return products that I purchase from the brick and motar businesses that I am not happy with, for one reason or another, and with 99% of the businesses it is not a problem.

Now there are some that have posted that someone has been a member for weeks if not months and then charged back and that person is a crook. Some one that has been a member for a short period of time and is simply unhappy with the content being offered and cannot get a response from the Webmaster or Billing service...let alone get a refund...in my opinion a charge back should be legitimate.

So bottom line...in my opinion...is deceptive promotion.hahahahahahahaha cutter sites with basically the same content as a hundred other sites...and shitty sites that don't even rise to that level...is the reason for a charge back...in other words a very unhappy customer.

so what do you do when you go out to eat and the food sucked or yours friends refered you but you didn't like the spices or whatever and you didn't like the food.
did you still pay for it?

BRISK · 07-14-2003, 10:08 AM

Roger, if surfers playing the chargeback game are the real problem, then why is it that some sites have 4% chargebacks and some sites have 0.4% chargebacks?

theking · 07-14-2003, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

so what do you do when you go out to eat and the food sucked or yours friends refered you but you didn't like the spices or whatever and you didn't like the food.
did you still pay for it?

There have actually been a few occasions where I did complain about the quality of the meal and the restaurant apologized and either asked me if I would like to order something else or told me that there would not be any charge. Of course I did not eat the whole meal...just a couple of bites of this or that. I never order red meat in a restaurant anymore as I like my meat cooked a certain way and restuarants cannot seem to accomplish this.

I am sure that you must be aware that most businesses, big and small, have a general policy of "the custormer is always right".

Jakke PNG · 07-14-2003, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

so what do you do when you go out to eat and the food sucked or yours friends refered you but you didn't like the spices or whatever and you didn't like the food.
did you still pay for it?

Sure, but if I was offered a 5 star gourmet meal for 20$, and I got a cold happy meal... I wouldn't pay.

I haven't seen your member areas, but some sites I've seen have absolutely fucking horrible member areas, something I would never-ever consider joining if I knew what was inside..

FATPad · 07-14-2003, 10:12 AM

Amazing how "savvy internet surfers" are to blame, yet not everyone has chargeback problems.

And yes...if I went out to dinner and ordered something that was listed as "free"on the menu only to get hit with $120 in charges, I'd charge it back.

theking · 07-14-2003, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK
Roger, if surfers playing the chargeback game are the real problem, then why is it that some sites have 4% chargebacks and some sites have 0.4% chargebacks?

Good point...and a relatively easy answer (in my opinion)...customer satisfaction on the one hand and customer dissatisfaction on the other hand...much for same reasons that I expressed in my previous post.

johnny5 · 07-14-2003, 10:28 AM

what we all need to do is stop talking about it and do what we KNOW is right. im sure we can all agree the right way to make the customer happy...

no crosssales, they dont want to join some site for $50 a month that they have never seen.

content, if your members area looks the same as the other 15 sites you own but its a different color.... you know what im getting at.

pricing, come on now. remember that a big chunk of the rest of the world... particularly the ones who sign up, are only making a grand a month. they cant afford this shit. i really think we all agree the price should be capped at $30 a month MAX probably $25 is a better number.

chargebacks, we need to share these customers emails with each other. no one likes giving away targeted emails, but i mean shit.. it would really help each other out so the same guy doesnt go from site to site pulling this crap.

retention, if everyone would put more effort into retaining the member instead of finding them... i bet chargebacks would drop a shitload...

thats just my

Tipsy · 07-14-2003, 10:33 AM

The amazing thing is that only 50% have clicked the last option. To not think that ALL of the above contribute (and the amount each contribute will vary hugely from site to site) is idiocy. How hard can it really be to open your eyes and see the whole picture?

TurboAngel · 07-14-2003, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tipsy
The amazing thing is that only 50% have clicked the last option. To not think that ALL of the above contribute (and the amount each contribute will vary hugely from site to site) is idiocy. How hard can it really be to open your eyes and see the whole picture?

Thank you!

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BRISK
Roger, if surfers playing the chargeback game are the real problem, then why is it that some sites have 4% chargebacks and some sites have 0.4% chargebacks?

are the site with 4% getting traffic thru a program. If so I bet they are getting scammed by fraudulant webmasters with stolen cards.

we monitor our acounts daily and we are well under 1%

Just our experience I don't know what others do

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theking

There have actually been a few occasions where I did complain about the quality of the meal and the restaurant apologized and either asked me if I would like to order something else or told me that there would not be any charge. Of course I did not eat the whole meal...just a couple of bites of this or that. I never order red meat in a restaurant anymore as I like my meat cooked a certain way and restuarants cannot seem to accomplish this.

I am sure that you must be aware that most businesses, big and small, have a general policy of "the custormer is always right".

I agree and thats why we have trials call it a taste test.
it there fault if they eat the whole meal and forget to complain.
they can always cancel during the trial not only do they see what the full price is when they join they get emails notifying them what the charges will be.

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FATPad
Amazing how "savvy internet surfers" are to blame, yet not everyone has chargeback problems.

And yes...if I went out to dinner and ordered something that was listed as "free"on the menu only to get hit with $120 in charges, I'd charge it back.

who says its free. its a free trial.

don't you use the 2 for one coupons buy one meal get the second for the same price etc.
why do you think they do that?

to get you to come in and then they know you will buy drinks and a salad etc. its all about upsells and getting people in the door.

clubsexy · 07-14-2003, 10:48 AM

I wouldn't know about charge backs, I don't really seem to get too many. Most PPS sponsors don't show them and I don't have my own paysite, but the few signups that do get counted, I rarely get any credits or chargebacks.

I guess when I start my paysite, I will find out huh?

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by johnny5
what we all need to do is stop talking about it and do what we KNOW is right. im sure we can all agree the right way to make the customer happy...

no crosssales, they dont want to join some site for $50 a month that they have never seen.

content, if your members area looks the same as the other 15 sites you own but its a different color.... you know what im getting at.

pricing, come on now. remember that a big chunk of the rest of the world... particularly the ones who sign up, are only making a grand a month. they cant afford this shit. i really think we all agree the price should be capped at $30 a month MAX probably $25 is a better number.

chargebacks, we need to share these customers emails with each other. no one likes giving away targeted emails, but i mean shit.. it would really help each other out so the same guy doesnt go from site to site pulling this crap.

retention, if everyone would put more effort into retaining the member instead of finding them... i bet chargebacks would drop a shitload...

thats just my

Do you really think dropping the charge will keep them retaining?
we have tried all models and it doesn't work. most surfers can't afford an extra $10 a month.

they just are curious and its all an impluse buy when they are done wacking off they will get a bill and cancel or chargeback.
there are always exceptions to everything.
this is just my opinon and I'm just trying to see waht others think.

we try many things we have a site thats $6.95 a month reacurring at $6.95 it retains the same as our other sites http://www.megaporn.com/
and it has a shit load of content in it.

I personally think most of the chargebacks are do to fraudulent webmasters running stolen cards and surfers charging back knowing they could.

johnny5 · 07-14-2003, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

Do you really think dropping the charge will keep them retaining?
we have tried all models and it doesn't work. most surfers can't afford an extra $10 a month.

they just are curious and its all an impluse buy when they are done wacking off they will get a bill and cacel or chargeback.
there are always exceptions to everything.
this is just my opinon and I'm just trying to see waht others think

yes i really do think it will hlep retain.. think of it like this for a minute. pretend your not making a milliion bucks a year, but say only 20k instead.
you join a site for $1 for a month. you like the membership and want to keep it. but you cant be spending 40-50 a month to keep it.. thats just out of the question.. but you might stay if the price was say $25... but thats just MY opinion. i havent done any testing or anything. i just know that 40-50 bucks is alot of money to alot of people.....

FATPad · 07-14-2003, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

who says its free. its a free trial.

don't you use the 2 for one coupons buy one meal get the second for the same price etc.
why do you think they do that?

to get you to come in and then they know you will buy drinks and a salad etc. its all about upsells and getting people in the door.

So upsell them in your site.

Oh wait...that's not as effective at fucking people out of $80 as two hard to read, pre-checked, cross sells buried in with a pile of other shit.

Keep rationalizing though.

Everyone knows those cross sells are pure shit designed to nail people with $80 in charges and hope they don't demand a refund or charge it back.

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by johnny5

yes i really do think it will hlep retain.. think of it like this for a minute. pretend your not making a milliion bucks a year, but say only 20k instead.
you join a site for $1 for a month. you like the membership and want to keep it. but you cant be spending 40-50 a month to keep it.. thats just out of the question.. but you might stay if the price was say $25... but thats just MY opinion. i havent done any testing or anything. i just know that 40-50 bucks is alot of money to alot of people.....

I understand even $10 bucks is alot for most people.

our charbacks are way under 1% so we must be doing something right and we give them a full month trial for a $1 which might also help.

As far as we go most of our chargebacks are from webmasters trying to scam our system. but thats us I don't know what other programs are having problems with.

but the retention is always the same no matter what price point we use.

johnny5 · 07-14-2003, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

I understand even $10 bucks is alot for most people.

our charbacks are way under 1% so we must be doing something right and we give them a full month trial for a $1 which might also help.

As far as we go most of our chargebacks are from webmasters trying to scam our system. but thats us I don't know what other programs are having problems with.

but the retention is always the same no matter what price point we use.

im not talking about your sites directly, just giving my thoughts on the industry all together. when someone signsup for a site that has a trial for only a few bucks, they KNOW its gonna renew to a higher price. if the price is too high they are gonna know they are going to cancel before they even signup...

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by johnny5

im not talking about your sites directly, just giving my thoughts on the industry all together. when someone signsup for a site that has a trial for only a few bucks, they KNOW its gonna renew to a higher price. if the price is too high they are gonna know they are going to cancel before they even signup...

I know I'm just picking people's brains

justsexxx · 07-14-2003, 11:18 AM

Don't know if you want to know my opinion but here it goes.

Big percentage of chargebacks in the industry is IMO caused because some programs don't sell a adultmembership based on content, but based on upsells.

I joined a program not so long time ago, and what I saw was upsells to other paysites....I won't mention the name, but this is one of the problems.

Then the cross sells boxes, When you join for FREE, and then see, fuck I have been charged 120 dollar, you are not happy:-)

Then of course some jerkers who get caught by their wives. They say, NO IT WAS NOT ME, and they do a CB.

Then the webmasters with stolen CC's. Actually I don't get it why there is not a system, then when you buy something online(so no signature) you have to enter some kind of TOKEN or pincode...

Any idea if that will be maybe installed on VISA/MC accounts?

Andre

scooby doo as scooby does · 07-14-2003, 11:22 AM

'webmaster & customer fraud'. What a crock of shit.

I'm sure there is a percentage in there, but no where near as high as some here are making out.

Why ?

Well, why are some sites able to maintain chargeback ratios in the 0.0x if theres all these criminal customers & webmasters out there ?

Also, basing your response to this on what customers tell you, even if you trap them in a lie is a bit daft. People lie. They know 'oh, your members section was shite' will not get anywhere and think 'oh, my credit card was stolen' is more likely to get them a refund. Which is bloody true and the whole point.

It's not a coincidence that Epoch is making these changes you know!

The blinkers on some people are amazing.

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FATPad
So upsell them in your site.

Oh wait...that's not as effective at fucking people out of $80 as two hard to read, pre-checked, cross sells buried in with a pile of other shit.

Keep rationalizing though. Everyone knows those cross sells are pure shit designed to nail people with $80 in charges and hope they don't demand a refund or charge it back.

this is your basic cross sell

Click here to signup for a 4 day NO CHARGE Membership to whatever site Four Day Trial Subscription. After 4 days, Membership renews automatically at $36.19 every 1 month.

I guess people can't read and its a trial so they get an email sent to them that they can cancel from disclosing the price.
Or is it to hard to cancel on a trial?

Personally I don't think surfers are that dumb.
before cross sells the retention and chargebacks were about the same.

I think we need to censor the free stuff so people have to pay for it. Just my 2 cents

I wish people could give solutions to change things. you guys think its just cross sells and high subscriptions.

I think its something bigger like Smart surfers and a shit load of free porn out there causing it.

FATPad · 07-14-2003, 11:35 AM

No. That's not your typical cross sell.

<font size="1" color="#999999">*prechecked* Check here ut to recieve a 4 day NO CHARGE Membership to whatever site Four Day Trial Subscription. After 4 days, Membership renews automatically at $36.19 every 1 month. </font>

That is your typical cross sell. Small, in a fucked up font color so people don't see it.

Cross sells in and of themselves are not bad. They're the same as dialers and popups. If used properly they can increase revenues and not cause problems. But like dialers and popups, they were abused to the point of being problematic for everyone.

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by scooby doo as scooby does
'webmaster & customer fraud'. What a crock of shit.

I'm sure there is a percentage in there, but no where near as high as some here are making out.

Why ?

Well, why are some sites able to maintain chargeback ratios in the 0.0x if theres all these criminal customers & webmasters out there ?

Also, basing your response to this on what customers tell you, even if you trap them in a lie is a bit daft. People lie. They know 'oh, your members section was shite' will not get anywhere and think 'oh, my credit card was stolen' is more likely to get them a refund. Which is bloody true and the whole point.

It's not a coincidence that Epoch is making these changes you know!

The blinkers on some people are amazing.

I'm just going by our info with our sites and program.

do you have any paysites? do the sites your talking about with 0 chargebacks have a program attached to them?

trust me we get alot of fraudulant webmasters who hit bot us then run cards thru. as do most others I'm sure.

we are at .66 Percent past 3 months with free trials, porn4abuck and paid trials. but most of our sales come thru Porn4aBuck so the free trials going away don't affect us much.

I think if we tighten up the free stuff out there people will be forced to pay for it. and if program shut out there fraudulant webmasters there percentage would drop.

you might be right cross sells might have an affect but I personally don't think lowering the price of a membership does. from our experience.

I guess it depends on everyone's members section what they feel is right to charge for it.

Pornkings · 07-14-2003, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FATPad
No. That's not your typical cross sell.

<font size="1" color="#999999">*prechecked* Check here ut to recieve a 4 day NO CHARGE Membership to whatever site Four Day Trial Subscription. After 4 days, Membership renews automatically at $36.19 every 1 month. </font>

That is your typical cross sell. Small, in a fucked up font color so people don't see it.

Cross sells in and of themselves are not bad. They're the same as dialers and popups. If used properly they can increase revenues and not cause problems. But like dialers and popups, they were abused to the point of being problematic for everyone.

now that can be a problem if abused and made so it can't be read.

but I don't think this is the major problem for chargebacks.
just like visa and mastercard going to the root of what they need to do to shake us .

We need to do the same with the surfers and give them less free stuff and censor everything. Like I said this is just my opinion.
it's supply and demand

View Poll Results: what really is causing chargebacks
savvy surfers knowing how to chargeback and not having to pay	29	16.57%
Porn sites having free trials and cross sells etc. deceptive marketing	65	37.14%
theives running stolen cards thru online companies	7	4.00%
all of the above	74	42.29%
Voters: 175. You may not vote on this poll

07-13-2003, 09:47 PM	#1
Pornkings Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Roger V Posts: 5,334	what really is causing these chargebacks I thought this was very interesting http://209.61.190.23/news2002/nov02/...wednesday.html is it fraudulant webmasters and people running stolen cards etc. through porn and mainstream? Are surfers more savvy now and know they can get away with not paying when using a credit card online? Or do you really think its becasue paysites have a shitty members section or they don't have exclusive content. maybe its because they have deceptive marketing like Free trials etc. So who is really to blame? the Surfer, Visa and mastercard or the companies selling the goods everyone is saying the adult industry did this I don't think so it seems to be a problem for every online company __________________ Pornkings.com Last edited by Pornkings; 07-13-2003 at 09:55 PM..

07-13-2003, 09:59 PM	#5
BRISK Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,240	deceptive marketing free memberships that convert to $49.99 pre-checked cross sells __________________ I post on GFY so that when people ask me what I do, I can tell them that I work with the mentally retarded.

07-13-2003, 10:02 PM	#7
heymatty Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Scottsdale :) Posts: 2,188	spouse disputes charges = high __________________ Cashlantis ~ Black Book Cash

07-13-2003, 10:27 PM	#15
Pornkings Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Roger V Posts: 5,334	I think if we can stop the fraudulant webmasters and censor the free porn out there we would have less problems. make the surfer pay for there porn. when they see they can't get it free they will pay. then we won't have to worry about free trials etc. and Sponsors working together keeping the fraudulant webmasters out will also help alot. If these two things are done everything else will fall into place. cut off there supply and see what happens. and then maybe everyone else will get off our backs __________________ Pornkings.com

07-13-2003, 09:55 PM	#2
TurboAngel H.B.I.C. Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: NC Posts: 30,122	It all has a part in it!

07-13-2003, 10:03 PM	#9
jollyperv Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 3,927	greed

07-13-2003, 10:48 PM	#16
Pornkings Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Roger V Posts: 5,334	I can't believe how many of you think its all just Porn sites having free trials and cross sells etc. deceptive marketing. I have a question for you to ask your friends maybe you already have. ask them if they would pay for porn online and see what they say. Just ask a couple of your friends not in the biz and post there response. (I bet they will all say why pay when I can get it free) __________________ Pornkings.com

07-13-2003, 11:03 PM	#17
Timbo Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Vegas, Bitch! Posts: 550	Good points, Rog Why don't us sponsors start and share, a database of known fraudulant webmasters. __________________

07-13-2003, 11:14 PM	#19
WiredGuy Pounding Googlebot Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 34,497	I think the preselected cross-sales really contributed the most to the excessive chargebacks. While surfers can read and unselect the cross-sale, they simply don't bother in my opinion and decide to chargeback the whole set of charges they get. Just my 2 cents... WG __________________ I play with Google.

07-13-2003, 11:58 PM	#23
Penthouse_mike Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Silicon Valley Posts: 317	The internet is the best tool ever invented to commit fraud. Surfers deny visiting and paying for adult content because there is a stigma against consuming pornography and onanism Site owners make join pages where there isn't even a checkbox for the cross sale, and the cancel page doesn't work because the adult web attracts a different type of merchant who is more driven than most by short term profitability and a 'breaking the rules' or anti-authoritarian mindset.

07-14-2003, 12:49 AM	#24
noshit Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Midwest USA Posts: 1,582	AaronM hits it on the head. Read again what he said.

07-14-2003, 10:08 AM	#27
BRISK Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,240	Roger, if surfers playing the chargeback game are the real problem, then why is it that some sites have 4% chargebacks and some sites have 0.4% chargebacks? __________________ I post on GFY so that when people ask me what I do, I can tell them that I work with the mentally retarded.

07-14-2003, 10:12 AM	#30
FATPad Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 6,693	Amazing how "savvy internet surfers" are to blame, yet not everyone has chargeback problems. And yes...if I went out to dinner and ordered something that was listed as "free"on the menu only to get hit with $120 in charges, I'd charge it back. __________________ <a href="http://www.adultcontent.co.uk">Adult Content UK - Great British Content</a>

07-14-2003, 10:28 AM	#32
johnny5 Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: i.e. - biatches Posts: 291	what we all need to do is stop talking about it and do what we KNOW is right. im sure we can all agree the right way to make the customer happy... no crosssales, they dont want to join some site for $50 a month that they have never seen. content, if your members area looks the same as the other 15 sites you own but its a different color.... you know what im getting at. pricing, come on now. remember that a big chunk of the rest of the world... particularly the ones who sign up, are only making a grand a month. they cant afford this shit. i really think we all agree the price should be capped at $30 a month MAX probably $25 is a better number. chargebacks, we need to share these customers emails with each other. no one likes giving away targeted emails, but i mean shit.. it would really help each other out so the same guy doesnt go from site to site pulling this crap. retention, if everyone would put more effort into retaining the member instead of finding them... i bet chargebacks would drop a shitload... thats just my __________________ sincerely, me

07-14-2003, 10:33 AM	#33
Tipsy Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: See sig Posts: 6,989	The amazing thing is that only 50% have clicked the last option. To not think that ALL of the above contribute (and the amount each contribute will vary hugely from site to site) is idiocy. How hard can it really be to open your eyes and see the whole picture? __________________ Ignorance is never bliss.

07-14-2003, 10:48 AM	#38
clubsexy Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 1,630	I wouldn't know about charge backs, I don't really seem to get too many. Most PPS sponsors don't show them and I don't have my own paysite, but the few signups that do get counted, I rarely get any credits or chargebacks. I guess when I start my paysite, I will find out huh? __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

07-14-2003, 11:18 AM	#45
justsexxx Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 13,723	Don't know if you want to know my opinion but here it goes. Big percentage of chargebacks in the industry is IMO caused because some programs don't sell a adultmembership based on content, but based on upsells. I joined a program not so long time ago, and what I saw was upsells to other paysites....I won't mention the name, but this is one of the problems. Then the cross sells boxes, When you join for FREE, and then see, fuck I have been charged 120 dollar, you are not happy:-) Then of course some jerkers who get caught by their wives. They say, NO IT WAS NOT ME, and they do a CB. Then the webmasters with stolen CC's. Actually I don't get it why there is not a system, then when you buy something online(so no signature) you have to enter some kind of TOKEN or pincode... Any idea if that will be maybe installed on VISA/MC accounts? Andre __________________ Questions? ICQ: 125184542

07-14-2003, 11:22 AM	#46
scooby doo as scooby does Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: A deep dark place. Posts: 314	'webmaster & customer fraud'. What a crock of shit. I'm sure there is a percentage in there, but no where near as high as some here are making out. Why ? Well, why are some sites able to maintain chargeback ratios in the 0.0x if theres all these criminal customers & webmasters out there ? Also, basing your response to this on what customers tell you, even if you trap them in a lie is a bit daft. People lie. They know 'oh, your members section was shite' will not get anywhere and think 'oh, my credit card was stolen' is more likely to get them a refund. Which is bloody true and the whole point. It's not a coincidence that Epoch is making these changes you know! The blinkers on some people are amazing. __________________ In 1904, Charles Newman-Berry connected two abacus's together using specially enhanced GrapeVine thus inventing the first Internet connection. NEWMAN-BERRY CASH Paying webmaster since 1904

07-14-2003, 11:35 AM	#48
FATPad Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 6,693	No. That's not your typical cross sell. <font size="1" color="#999999">prechecked Check here ut to recieve a 4 day NO CHARGE Membership to whatever site Four Day Trial Subscription. After 4 days, Membership renews automatically at $36.19 every 1 month. </font> That is your typical cross sell. Small, in a fucked up font color so people don't see it. Cross sells in and of themselves are not bad. They're the same as dialers and popups. If used properly they can increase revenues and not cause problems. But like dialers and popups, they were abused to the point of being problematic for everyone. __________________ <a href="http://www.adultcontent.co.uk">Adult Content UK - Great British Content</a>