Definitive 2257 answers. - GoFuckYourself.com

AaronM · 04-17-2003, 02:33 PM

Due to some new as well as the ongoing discussions about 2257 and records keeping, I took the liberty to contact J.D. Obenberger from xxxlaw.net and ask him some specific questions that have been asked lately. Here is our discussion. The bold text is his reply.

Aaron Matthews wrote:

There has been a lot of discussion about 2257 Custodians on some of the boards lately and there is some slight confusion about something.

"75.4
Any producer required by this part to maintain records shall make
such records available at the producer's place of business. The business address shall refer to a street address and not to a post office box number. Such records shall be maintained as long as the producer remains in business. If the producer ceases to carry on the business, the records shall be maintained for five years thereafter.

75.6
(3) A street address at which the records required by this part may be made available. The street address may be an address specified by the primary producer or, if the secondary producer satisfies the requirements of Sec. 75.2(b), the address of the secondary producer."

The logical (and harmonious) answer is that the primary producer may maintain the required records only at his place of business and that the secondary producer may comply with the law by accepting the original records required to be maintained by Section 2257, keeping a record of the name and address of the primary producer who provided the records, and maintaining them him/her/itself, also disclosing for notice purposes the place of business where the secondary producer maintains them. The secondary producer may also apparently comply by naming the primary producer in its Notice and there disclosing the name of his/her/its "natural person" records custodian and the place of business where the primary maintains records.

These two may contradict each other. 75.4 says I must maintain at my place of business but 75.6 says I may supply a street address but does not specifically say that it must be my own. What myself and others are wondering is if it is legal for a company to offer the records custody as a service to others. A lot of the amateurs out there are concerned with stalkers knowing their physical address and so forth.

The answer is a clear and resounding "No". The records must be maintained at a legitimate place of business, either that of the primary producer, that of the secondary producer or at both. The law is violated if they are not maintained at a producer's place of businss. A lawyer's office, or a professional records custodian's office is not the producer's place of business. It is the lawyer's place of business or that of the custodian. If the only business conducted is the maintenance of records, it amounts to a pretext in evasion of the statue, and I think, a criminal conspiracy. With the enactment of the Amber Alert Bill, the penalty for a violation of 2257 now goes from two to five years in prision as a maximum. Congress is also requiring the attorney general to annually report the number of 2257 inspections and of prosecutions brought as a result. This is all now, imminently, getting serious. So please tell your chatboard friends to stop fooling around with their futures, to stop playing lawyer (a job for which their wishful-thinking interpretations prove them to be ill-suited) and obey the law. If, as it appears, they are unable to read and understand the law, tell them to hire someone who can. And don't hire one of the handful of lawyers who will maintain records for a fee. When the bust comes down, he won't be able to represent you because he'll be your co-defendant as he battles to preserve his law license.

The stakes are getting higher. And you have content that I'd defend with especial pleasure: I like the way your lens looks at attractive females.

Kind regards,

Joe Obenberger

Those of you who are not complying with the laws...and there are a shitload of you that post here...I highly suggest you get your shit togther and stop fucking around before this ends up costing you things besides money...such as your freedom. J.D. said it best with this line: "please tell your chatboard friends to stop fooling around with their futures, to stop playing lawyer (a job for which their wishful-thinking interpretations prove them to be ill-suited) and obey the law. If, as it appears, they are unable to read and understand the law, tell them to hire someone who can."

This is your life we are talking about, not just your businesses or hobbies. Think about it.

freeadultcontent · 04-17-2003, 02:45 PM

Thanks AaronM, basicly everything I thought and practiced anyways.

One question to ya since you seem to be on the same track as I am. Say I hire a photographer to do a shoot for me in Canada, and I am based in California. I pay for the entire shoot, and get all rights to it. I would therefore be the producer correct?

sneaker · 04-17-2003, 03:00 PM

(2)

If the person to whom subsection (a) of this section applies is an organization the statement required by this subsection shall include the name, title, and business address of the individual employed by such organization responsible for maintaining the records required by this section.

Thanks for the info AaronM... Just thought I would cut out a part of the law that I think explains pretty clearly what you talked about =)

AaronM · 04-17-2003, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by freeadultcontent
Thanks AaronM, basicly everything I thought and practiced anyways.

One question to ya since you seem to be on the same track as I am. Say I hire a photographer to do a shoot for me in Canada, and I am based in California. I pay for the entire shoot, and get all rights to it. I would therefore be the producer correct?

Difficult question. I would consult with an attorney on this but here is the legal definition.

producer

n 1: someone who manufactures something [syn: manufacturer] 2: someone who finds financing for and supervises the making and presentation of a show (play or film or program or similar work) 3: something that produces; "Maine is a leading producer of potatoes" or "this microorganism is a producer of disease"

By definition, No, you are not the producer. Check out #2..."someone who finds financing for...." You are financing the producer in this case.

To cover your ass, I would simply consider myself the secondary producer, if I were you. In such a case, I would ask for copies of all necessary documentation for my records. Keep in mind that YOU did not see the original identification documents.

I still suggest that you ask a competent attorney.

freeadultcontent · 04-17-2003, 03:11 PM

I figure if I get doubles of all paperwork so there is two sets of originals, and I keep on set. I am pretty much safe. I do not figure I could get into trouble for having to many records.

Carrie · 04-17-2003, 03:16 PM

That really sucks for amateurs, as you pointed out Aaron.
They can't even get a safe deposit box and keep the records there, because it's the bank's place of business, not their own.
There needs to be more privacy and safety/security written into the law for people who *are* the content and their home is therefore their place of business.

freeadultcontent · 04-17-2003, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Carrie

There needs to be more privacy and safety/security written into the law for people who *are* the content and their home is therefore their place of business.

Honestly like the DOJ or anyone really cares.

AaronM · 04-17-2003, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by freeadultcontent

Honestly like the DOJ or anyone really cares.

Exactly. They would rather see people go out of business.

There is a way around this, BUT it is not dirt cheap. I know a local guy who shoots out of a house that he uses as his studio. His actual residence is miles away. He has his own amateur site and all of the 2257 stuff is pointed to his actual place of business rather than his home. I know a lot of the amateurs can not afford to rent a place just for shooting, but if you can then it is a good way of not having people find your actual residence.

Fletch XXX · 04-17-2003, 03:42 PM

good read AaronM.

EscortBiz · 04-17-2003, 03:45 PM

Hes a great guy, wish him a happy Passover from all of us I think hes Jewish

AaronM · 04-17-2003, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EscortBiz
Hes a great guy, wish him a happy Passover from all of us I think hes Jewish

LOL...Aren't all attorneys?

modF · 04-17-2003, 03:54 PM

Good read, thanks Aaron and JD.

TheJimmy · 04-17-2003, 04:22 PM

Good post Aaron!

Thus my and a few other's previous sentiment on going overboard on protection & documentation even at the secondary producer level...

I have gone through all content and anything I don't have docs for is shitcanned...no amount of money is worth fucking up your future and forcible anal pillaging by the DOJ & company :/

jact · 04-17-2003, 04:34 PM

fiveyes · 04-17-2003, 04:34 PM

Here in Louisiana, where things are based upon the Napoleanic Code, a Private Mail Box (PMB) meets all the requirements for a "place of business". The state's only concern is that you stay within the zoning requirements of the physical location of the mail service.

In other words, though I work at home in a residential neighborhood, I transact my business through a 3"x3"x9" 'office' in the Quarter, which is zoned for mail order. So, the State of Louisiana sees me in complete compliance with their regulations.

In fact, for every official document I've applied for in this area, from occupational licenses with the city, through when I applied for a sole proprietor and including incorporating within Louisiana, an investigator from whatever office I was dealing with has gone to the mail service to make sure it was a "suitable location for the business" and all have agreed that I have an office on Royal Street, within the letter of law.

AaronM · 04-17-2003, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fiveyes
Here in Louisiana, where things are based upon the Napoleanic Code, a Private Mail Box (PMB) meets all the requirements for a "place of business". The state's only concern is that you stay within the zoning requirements of the physical location of the mail service.

In other words, though I work at home in a residential neighborhood, I transact my business through a 3"x3"x9" 'office' in the Quarter, which is zoned for mail order. So, the State of Louisiana sees me in complete compliance with their regulations.

In fact, for every official document I've applied for in this area, from occupational licenses with the city, through when I applied for a sole proprietor and including incorporating within Louisiana, an investigator from whatever office I was dealing with has gone to the mail service to make sure it was a "suitable location for the business" and all have agreed that I have an office on Royal Street, within the letter of law.

And none of these people give a rats ass or know anything about article 2257. Yes, that may be considered a legal place of business in your state, however it is NOT a place where your records may be reviewed upon request during "reasonable business hours" as required by law. Your local laws on the definition of a place of business and the federal laws surrounding 2257 are totally different.

Don't be an idiot on this one. You will get fucked.

sneaker · 04-17-2003, 04:45 PM

FYI: This is a Federal Law not State Law

jimmyf · 04-17-2003, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AaronM

And none of these people give a rats ass or know anything about article 2257. Yes, that may be considered a legal place of business in your state, however it is NOT a place where your records may be reviewed upon request during "reasonable business hours" as required by law. Your local laws on the definition of a place of business and the federal laws surrounding 2257 are totally different.

Don't be an idiot on this one. You will get fucked.

Yes Oh YES, The DOJ don't give a flying fuck about ANY state laws. Ask the Pot Clubs in California

fiveyes · 04-17-2003, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AaronM
.... Don't be an idiot on this one. You will get fucked.

Maybe, if I ever decided to do something that wasn't 2257 exempt.

SpacemanSpiff · 04-17-2003, 06:38 PM

OK, stoopid question time,

I don't know the difference between primary producers, secondary producers, and tuna fish sandwiches. I am just a lowly webmaster that has a box full of lawfully purchased content CD's, all of which (hopefully) have the required mumbo jumbo to make the g-men happy. Do I need a 2257 statement of some kind on all of my sites. Do I need to have the name, address, age, shoe size, favorite color, etc of every model that appears on all of my sites?

Thanks
SS

StacyCat · 04-17-2003, 08:01 PM

OKay, I got a question.

Suppose me and a few other girls get in together and form a company. We base this company in a small office space in some state where one of us lives, and hire someone to run the office. We all change our domains so this company owns the domains, and the company is fully run by the girls (i.e. I operate site 1, and keep all the money minus a small amount that goes to the company) This office space would be the "companies" place of business, with someone avalible during reasonable business hours.

Would something like this work? It would be a nightmare of a time getting the business paperwork drawn up so none of us could fuck over the other. It would give a central place, and the person we hire could work traffic or galleries or something, and also function as the custodian of records.

Carrie · 04-17-2003, 08:28 PM

Stacy I think that as long as your site says the records can be found there, and a nice uniformed man (who refuses to be photographed for our sites, dammit) can go there during normal business hours and request those documents and have them handed to him, that the plan you outline would work fine.

The postal box (or Mail Boxes Etc. and the like) doesn't work because the officer can't ask the box for papers and have them handed to him. Plus you don't keep your papers in your mailbox - you keep them at your house. So *that* is what the 2257 statement on your site needs to say...
Think of it this way: wherever the physical paper licenses that you have for your content reside, THAT is your "place of business" in the Feds' eyes that needs to be on your 2257 statement. And obviously this can't be a security deposit box, because you don't sit next to that box every minute waiting for someone to request to see the documents. (Someone has to be there with access to the documents - which the bank won't have. The box needs your key for it to be opened.)
*sigh*

kronic · 04-17-2003, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheJimmy
Good post Aaron!

Thus my and a few other's previous sentiment on going overboard on protection & documentation even at the secondary producer level...

I have gone through all content and anything I don't have docs for is shitcanned...no amount of money is worth fucking up your future and forcible anal pillaging by the DOJ & company :/

"The secondary producer may also apparently comply by naming the primary producer in its Notice and there disclosing the name of his/her/its "natural person" records custodian and the place of business where the primary maintains records."

Would this statement not mean that you wouldn't have to have 2257 records on file and instead simply name as the custodian of records, the primary producer?

That's how it reads to me.

Snowone · 04-17-2003, 11:52 PM

Go to http://www.xxxlaw.net and read the full article. There is some interesting stuff near the bottom for webmasters. But the whole page is educational, and scary...

AaronM · 04-18-2003, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Snowone
Go to http://www.xxxlaw.net and read the full article. There is some interesting stuff near the bottom for webmasters. But the whole page is educational, and scary...

And about to be updated.

Nydahl · 04-18-2003, 09:10 AM

usefull thread man.thnx

steffie · 04-18-2003, 09:29 AM

Since we are small Amateur I also called my lawyer and asked him about the physical address.

Over the past 7 years many of my members would love to know where I live, trust me on this. We even had guys follow us after barmeets etc.

He told me "You have to put down your physical address where they can go during business hours" No po box etc.

I asked him "Dammit what about my privacy"

Him " They don't care, you must put down your physical address"

We are so screwed, I am now trying to figure out exactly wtf I am going to do.

Is this business worth having stalkers sitting outside your home? Following me? My family?

Well hey, at least starting now we will all know where all those Amateurs live. So if I get pissed at one, I can go and knock on their door.

Very Very scary...

This will remove a lot of Amateurs from the market. If you are an Amateur or Content provider prepare to put out your home address if you work from home like me.

Fuck!

rbrruss · 04-18-2003, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AaronM

And you have content that I'd defend with especial pleasure: I like the way your lens looks at attractive females.

Kind regards,

Joe Obenberger
[/B]

I bet Joe was typing with one hand when he wrote that.

AaronM · 04-18-2003, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kronic

"The secondary producer may also apparently comply by naming the primary producer in its Notice and there disclosing the name of his/her/its "natural person" records custodian and the place of business where the primary maintains records."

Would this statement not mean that you wouldn't have to have 2257 records on file and instead simply name as the custodian of records, the primary producer?

That's how it reads to me.

Correct. Pretty easy to understand, huh? It boogles my mind to see the number of people who just don't get it.

jact · 04-18-2003, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by steffie
Since we are small Amateur I also called my lawyer and asked him about the physical address.

Over the past 7 years many of my members would love to know where I live, trust me on this. We even had guys follow us after barmeets etc.

He told me "You have to put down your physical address where they can go during business hours" No po box etc.

I asked him "Dammit what about my privacy"

Him " They don't care, you must put down your physical address"

We are so screwed, I am now trying to figure out exactly wtf I am going to do.

Is this business worth having stalkers sitting outside your home? Following me? My family?

Well hey, at least starting now we will all know where all those Amateurs live. So if I get pissed at one, I can go and knock on their door.

Very Very scary...

This will remove a lot of Amateurs from the market. If you are an Amateur or Content provider prepare to put out your home address if you work from home like me.

Fuck!

Since when is this anything new? The law has been the law for years, it hasn't suddenly become something you should pay attention to, it's always been something you should pay attention to. I don't see how/why anything's going to change unless of course, you weren't following the law... But hey.

LadyMischief · 04-18-2003, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by steffie
Since we are small Amateur I also called my lawyer and asked him about the physical address.

Over the past 7 years many of my members would love to know where I live, trust me on this. We even had guys follow us after barmeets etc.

He told me "You have to put down your physical address where they can go during business hours" No po box etc.

I asked him "Dammit what about my privacy"

Him " They don't care, you must put down your physical address"

We are so screwed, I am now trying to figure out exactly wtf I am going to do.

Is this business worth having stalkers sitting outside your home? Following me? My family?

Well hey, at least starting now we will all know where all those Amateurs live. So if I get pissed at one, I can go and knock on their door.

Very Very scary...

This will remove a lot of Amateurs from the market. If you are an Amateur or Content provider prepare to put out your home address if you work from home like me.

Fuck!

Our office is our home, but we've always put our address up anyway. Before though it was RR #5... a little hard to find just out of the blue. Now we have an actual street address, but fortunately I'm far enough off the beaten path that I doubt too many people are going to come cause problems for us. For the most part, surfers don't care about/know about custodial information or what it means. Something that might be helpful though is to list a man as the custodian. That might deter a few people at least. Best of luck deciding what you're going to do though.

AaronM · 04-18-2003, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jact
Since when is this anything new? The law has been the law for years, it hasn't suddenly become something you should pay attention to, it's always been something you should pay attention to. I don't see how/why anything's going to change unless of course, you weren't following the law... But hey.

Bingo.

StacyCat · 04-18-2003, 10:52 AM

OKay, im pretty much getting used to the fact that I will have to put my home address on my website (as much as it sucks)

However, I dont keep "regular business hours." I dont work in a 9-5 industry, I may not even be home or awake during 9-5 hours. The law states "reasonable times," so, concievably, reasonalbe to me might be midnight when I am awake. Or 7am as i get off from my regular job.

What happens if I fully comply with the law, but dont answer the door at noon if they knock?

AaronM · 04-18-2003, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by StacyCat
OKay, im pretty much getting used to the fact that I will have to put my home address on my website (as much as it sucks)

However, I dont keep "regular business hours." I dont work in a 9-5 industry, I may not even be home or awake during 9-5 hours. The law states "reasonable times," so, concievably, reasonalbe to me might be midnight when I am awake. Or 7am as i get off from my regular job.

What happens if I fully comply with the law, but dont answer the door at noon if they knock?

Your time table is not their concern nor is it considered reasonable by most of the free world.

On the other hand...They are not going to throw you in jail for being out to lunch when they come by, either.

StacyCat · 04-18-2003, 11:17 AM

OKay, how about this?

The law doesnt specifically give a location that the statement must be on a specific page, but ?prominently displayed consistent with the manner of display required."

Why cant I break the site up into two parts? The first part, the "free area" has no hardcore pictures, so I place an exemption statement in that area, that is accessable to anyone. The second part, the "members section" would have a full disclosure.

Rational: There is nothing that says that the 2257 statement has to be avalible for anyone to read. CFR 75.8 states that in a video, it has to be at the beginning or the end, on a book it has to be on either the first page after the cover, or on its copyright statement. Nothing says it has to beon the box cover, or freely accessable to anyone. One could make a good argument that the "manner of display required" is only required to be disclosed to those that purchase the material (as in, buy the DVD to watch it, or shrink wrap the book so it cant be read without buying it) or that only before seeing the actual porn.

jact · 04-18-2003, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AaronM

Your time table is not their concern nor is it considered reasonable by most of the free world.

On the other hand...They are not going to throw you in jail for being out to lunch when they come by, either.

The way it was explained to me, no matter what time they come calling (During regular business hours) they expect to have the documents served to them within a reasonable amount of time (This amount of time was deemed to be 15 minutes) and the documents must be organized in a sufficently orderly manner or you'll be in for some major shit.

jact · 04-18-2003, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by StacyCat
OKay, how about this?

The law doesnt specifically give a location that the statement must be on a specific page, but ?prominently displayed consistent with the manner of display required."

Why cant I break the site up into two parts? The first part, the "free area" has no hardcore pictures, so I place an exemption statement in that area, that is accessable to anyone. The second part, the "members section" would have a full disclosure.

Rational: There is nothing that says that the 2257 statement has to be avalible for anyone to read. CFR 75.8 states that in a video, it has to be at the beginning or the end, on a book it has to be on either the first page after the cover, or on its copyright statement. Nothing says it has to beon the box cover, or freely accessable to anyone. One could make a good argument that the "manner of display required" is only required to be disclosed to those that purchase the material (as in, buy the DVD to watch it, or shrink wrap the book so it cant be read without buying it) or that only before seeing the actual porn.

Nice try, nexxxxxxxt?

kristydoll · 04-18-2003, 11:23 AM

This has been a very interesting read - but I have a question. Does this only apply to "pictures/videos/etc? Is erotic stories included anyway in this law?

kristy

Bark · 04-18-2003, 11:24 AM

So what's wrong with listing your address in the html? Put a link under Custodian that opens a view of the source code.

Or how about hiding it with background colored text? "Highlight for custodial records"

Where is the description of what constitutes a valid and proper publishing of the address?

AaronM · 04-18-2003, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by StacyCat
OKay, how about this?

The law doesnt specifically give a location that the statement must be on a specific page, but ?prominently displayed consistent with the manner of display required."

Why cant I break the site up into two parts? The first part, the "free area" has no hardcore pictures, so I place an exemption statement in that area, that is accessable to anyone. The second part, the "members section" would have a full disclosure.

Rational: There is nothing that says that the 2257 statement has to be avalible for anyone to read. CFR 75.8 states that in a video, it has to be at the beginning or the end, on a book it has to be on either the first page after the cover, or on its copyright statement. Nothing says it has to beon the box cover, or freely accessable to anyone. One could make a good argument that the "manner of display required" is only required to be disclosed to those that purchase the material (as in, buy the DVD to watch it, or shrink wrap the book so it cant be read without buying it) or that only before seeing the actual porn.

This will be the 3rd thread that I have posted this to in 2 days.

Keep in mind that this law was written pre-Internet and therefore, our concerns fall into the bold text below.

The bottom line is that this is left up to the Judge and/or the prosecutor. Why play with fire when you do not have to?

" TITLE 28--JUDICIAL ADMINISTRATION

PART 75--CHILD PROTECTION RESTORATION AND PENALTIES ENHANCEMENT ACT OF 1990; RECORD-KEEPING PROVISIONS--

Sec. 75.8 Location of the statement.

All books, magazines, and periodicals shall contain the statement required in Sec. 75.6 or suggested in Sec. 75.7 either on the first page that appears after the front cover or on the page on which copyright information appears. In any film or videotape which contains end credits for the production, direction, distribution, or other activity in connection with the film or videotape, the statement referred to in Sec. 75.6 or Sec. 75.7 shall be presented at the end of the end titles or final credits and shall be displayed for a sufficient duration to be capable of being read by the average viewer. Any other film or videotape shall contain the required statement within one minute from the start of the film or videotape, and before the opening scene, and shall display the statement for a sufficient duration to be read by the average viewer. For all other categories not otherwise mentioned in this section, the statement is to be prominently displayed consistent with the manner of display required for the forementioned categories."

StacyCat · 04-18-2003, 11:26 AM

Dont just try that, I have a valid point!

What if I hosted on two different domains? Would that make a difference?

Im trying to get at, the law doesnt state exactly where the statement has to go on a web page. Im just trying to make it as consistant as possible with the two examples that they have listed. Nothing says it has to be free.

AaronM · 04-18-2003, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kristydoll
This has been a very interesting read - but I have a question. Does this only apply to "pictures/videos/etc? Is erotic stories included anyway in this law?

kristy

Touchy subject. There have actually been prosecutions over diaries that had written fantasies about children in them.

This is an example of a very grey area that the Government can use to get convictions and establish new precidents from.

AaronM · 04-18-2003, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bark
So what's wrong with listing your address in the html? Put a link under Custodian that opens a view of the source code.

Or how about hiding it with background colored text? "Highlight for custodial records"

Where is the description of what constitutes a valid and proper publishing of the address?

75.8

Next!

AaronM · 04-18-2003, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by StacyCat
Dont just try that, I have a valid point!

What if I hosted on two different domains? Would that make a difference?

Im trying to get at, the law doesnt state exactly where the statement has to go on a web page. Im just trying to make it as consistant as possible with the two examples that they have listed. Nothing says it has to be free.

The law specifically says that the info has to be available to the average viewer. We all know that the average viewer of your front page does not become a member.

This proves your other comment wrong where you said "There is nothing that says that the 2257 statement has to be avalible for anyone to read." It clearly does require that.

jact · 04-18-2003, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AaronM

The law specifically says that the info has to be available to the average viewer. We all know that the average viewer of your front page does not become a member.

This proves your other comment wrong where you said "There is nothing that says that the 2257 statement has to be avalible for anyone to read." It clearly does require that.

When in doubt, go out of your way to make sure this information is clearly visiable. You aren't going to go to jail for having it TOO prominent, but you may for not having it where they want it today. When a law doesn't clearly outline something and leaves it up to law enforcement, I'd sure as hell not take a chance.

(Not directing this at Aaron, he knows where shit stands, some of you need a kick in the head though)

kristydoll · 04-18-2003, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AaronM

Touchy subject. There have actually been prosecutions over diaries that had written fantasies about children in them.

This is an example of a very grey area that the Government can use to get convictions and establish new precidents from.

I understand that - and I don't publish work with those themes. I just wonder what kind of documentation I need to do when planning to sell as content - because I understand this law affects me even though I am canadian.

kristy

AaronM · 04-18-2003, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kristydoll

I understand that - and I don't publish work with those themes. I just wonder what kind of documentation I need to do when planning to sell as content - because I understand this law affects me even though I am canadian.

kristy

This question is clearly one for an attorney. If/When you get an answer, please share it with the rest of us.

steffie · 04-18-2003, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by StacyCat
Dont just try that, I have a valid point!

What if I hosted on two different domains? Would that make a difference?

Im trying to get at, the law doesnt state exactly where the statement has to go on a web page. Im just trying to make it as consistant as possible with the two examples that they have listed. Nothing says it has to be free.

Stacy look how we did it. My lawyer said this is sufficient

Go to http://www.steffiecam.com
click on 2257-Webmaster-legal

it will take you to http://www.tapact.com
scroll down and there is a link to our 2257

with all the disclosures, legal information, physical address. etc.

It must be easiely found my the government. Which it is.

andi_germany · 04-18-2003, 12:40 PM

Simple solution.

- Get a remailing address somewhere
- Host all your shit in Holland or Denmark
- Point the whois database to the remailing address

Noone tracks your site as a US site therefore noone will ever ask you for any records on file. Might not be legal but it definately works.

AaronM · 04-18-2003, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by andi_germany
Simple solution.

- Get a remailing address somewhere
- Host all your shit in Holland or Denmark
- Point the whois database to the remailing address

Noone tracks your site as a US site therefore noone will ever ask you for any records on file. Might not be legal but it definately works.

Another idiot has spoken.

04-17-2003, 02:33 PM	#1
AaronM Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: ┌∩┐ ◣_◢ ┌∩┐ Posts: 46,909	Definitive 2257 answers. Due to some new as well as the ongoing discussions about 2257 and records keeping, I took the liberty to contact J.D. Obenberger from xxxlaw.net and ask him some specific questions that have been asked lately. Here is our discussion. The bold text is his reply. Aaron Matthews wrote: There has been a lot of discussion about 2257 Custodians on some of the boards lately and there is some slight confusion about something. "75.4 Any producer required by this part to maintain records shall make such records available at the producer's place of business. The business address shall refer to a street address and not to a post office box number. Such records shall be maintained as long as the producer remains in business. If the producer ceases to carry on the business, the records shall be maintained for five years thereafter. 75.6 (3) A street address at which the records required by this part may be made available. The street address may be an address specified by the primary producer or, if the secondary producer satisfies the requirements of Sec. 75.2(b), the address of the secondary producer." The logical (and harmonious) answer is that the primary producer may maintain the required records only at his place of business and that the secondary producer may comply with the law by accepting the original records required to be maintained by Section 2257, keeping a record of the name and address of the primary producer who provided the records, and maintaining them him/her/itself, also disclosing for notice purposes the place of business where the secondary producer maintains them. The secondary producer may also apparently comply by naming the primary producer in its Notice and there disclosing the name of his/her/its "natural person" records custodian and the place of business where the primary maintains records. These two may contradict each other. 75.4 says I must maintain at my place of business but 75.6 says I may supply a street address but does not specifically say that it must be my own. What myself and others are wondering is if it is legal for a company to offer the records custody as a service to others. A lot of the amateurs out there are concerned with stalkers knowing their physical address and so forth. The answer is a clear and resounding "No". The records must be maintained at a legitimate place of business, either that of the primary producer, that of the secondary producer or at both. The law is violated if they are not maintained at a producer's place of businss. A lawyer's office, or a professional records custodian's office is not the producer's place of business. It is the lawyer's place of business or that of the custodian. If the only business conducted is the maintenance of records, it amounts to a pretext in evasion of the statue, and I think, a criminal conspiracy. With the enactment of the Amber Alert Bill, the penalty for a violation of 2257 now goes from two to five years in prision as a maximum. Congress is also requiring the attorney general to annually report the number of 2257 inspections and of prosecutions brought as a result. This is all now, imminently, getting serious. So please tell your chatboard friends to stop fooling around with their futures, to stop playing lawyer (a job for which their wishful-thinking interpretations prove them to be ill-suited) and obey the law. If, as it appears, they are unable to read and understand the law, tell them to hire someone who can. And don't hire one of the handful of lawyers who will maintain records for a fee. When the bust comes down, he won't be able to represent you because he'll be your co-defendant as he battles to preserve his law license. The stakes are getting higher. And you have content that I'd defend with especial pleasure: I like the way your lens looks at attractive females. Kind regards, Joe Obenberger Those of you who are not complying with the laws...and there are a shitload of you that post here...I highly suggest you get your shit togther and stop fucking around before this ends up costing you things besides money...such as your freedom. J.D. said it best with this line: "please tell your chatboard friends to stop fooling around with their futures, to stop playing lawyer (a job for which their wishful-thinking interpretations prove them to be ill-suited) and obey the law. If, as it appears, they are unable to read and understand the law, tell them to hire someone who can." This is your life we are talking about, not just your businesses or hobbies. Think about it.

04-17-2003, 03:00 PM	#3
sneaker So Fucking Banned Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 251	(2) If the person to whom subsection (a) of this section applies is an organization the statement required by this subsection shall include the name, title, and business address of the individual employed by such organization responsible for maintaining the records required by this section. Thanks for the info AaronM... Just thought I would cut out a part of the law that I think explains pretty clearly what you talked about =) Last edited by sneaker; 04-17-2003 at 03:03 PM..

04-17-2003, 03:42 PM	#9
Fletch XXX GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: that 504 Posts: 60,840	good read AaronM. __________________ Want an Android App for your tube, membership, or free site? Need banners or promo material? Hit us up (ICQ Fletch: 148841377) or email me fletchxxx at gmail.com - recent work - About me

04-17-2003, 03:45 PM	#10
EscortBiz Fuck Checks, CASH only! Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 19,422	Hes a great guy, wish him a happy Passover from all of us I think hes Jewish __________________ Spanking, Medical Fetish, Sleeping, Strap-on Anal Lesbians, Girls Fucking Guys, Handjob site REAL HOT, Shemales, Anal and Ass Licking sites 100% Real EXCLUSIVE with amazing retention, ccbill payouts, lots of content FREE FTP HOSTING Promote the largest and oldest member paid escort site, Converts 10 times better then any dating site, CCBill payouts ICQ# 158802076

04-17-2003, 03:54 PM	#12
modF Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 1,888	Good read, thanks Aaron and JD. __________________ I do things skype:themodF

04-17-2003, 02:45 PM	#2
freeadultcontent Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: "evitcepsrep ruoy egnahc" Posts: 9,976	Thanks AaronM, basicly everything I thought and practiced anyways. One question to ya since you seem to be on the same track as I am. Say I hire a photographer to do a shoot for me in Canada, and I am based in California. I pay for the entire shoot, and get all rights to it. I would therefore be the producer correct? __________________ Exclusive Ethnic & Microniche Sites

04-17-2003, 03:11 PM	#5
freeadultcontent Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: "evitcepsrep ruoy egnahc" Posts: 9,976	I figure if I get doubles of all paperwork so there is two sets of originals, and I keep on set. I am pretty much safe. I do not figure I could get into trouble for having to many records. __________________ Exclusive Ethnic & Microniche Sites

04-17-2003, 03:16 PM	#6
Carrie Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Virgin - nee Posts: 3,162	That really sucks for amateurs, as you pointed out Aaron. They can't even get a safe deposit box and keep the records there, because it's the bank's place of business, not their own. There needs to be more privacy and safety/security written into the law for people who are the content and their home is therefore their place of business.

04-17-2003, 04:22 PM	#13
TheJimmy ICQ- five seven 0 2 5 5 0 Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 10,747	Good post Aaron! Thus my and a few other's previous sentiment on going overboard on protection & documentation even at the secondary producer level... I have gone through all content and anything I don't have docs for is shitcanned...no amount of money is worth fucking up your future and forcible anal pillaging by the DOJ & company :/ __________________ Investor with 5m - 15m USD to invest. Do you have a site or network of sites earning 50k - 200k a month income? Email your contact and preliminary data to: domain.cashventures (at) gmail.com....Please...no tire kickers...serious offers and inquiries only.

04-17-2003, 04:34 PM	#14
jact Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oakville, Canada Posts: 9,134	__________________ Free agent

04-17-2003, 04:34 PM	#15
fiveyes Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: New Orleans Posts: 1,680	Here in Louisiana, where things are based upon the Napoleanic Code, a Private Mail Box (PMB) meets all the requirements for a "place of business". The state's only concern is that you stay within the zoning requirements of the physical location of the mail service. In other words, though I work at home in a residential neighborhood, I transact my business through a 3"x3"x9" 'office' in the Quarter, which is zoned for mail order. So, the State of Louisiana sees me in complete compliance with their regulations. In fact, for every official document I've applied for in this area, from occupational licenses with the city, through when I applied for a sole proprietor and including incorporating within Louisiana, an investigator from whatever office I was dealing with has gone to the mail service to make sure it was a "suitable location for the business" and all have agreed that I have an office on Royal Street, within the letter of law. __________________ <CENTER><A HREF="http://www.hot-off-bourbon.com/" target="_blank"><IMG SRC="http://www.hot-off-bourbon.com/images/hob-logosmall.jpg" border="0"></A> <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" SIZE="-1"><I>Mardi Gras, Spring Break, Wet-T, Night Club Action, UpSkirt, Oil Wrestling, Voyeur</I></FONT></CENTER>

04-17-2003, 04:45 PM	#17
sneaker So Fucking Banned Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 251	FYI: This is a Federal Law not State Law

04-17-2003, 06:38 PM	#20
SpacemanSpiff Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: 5th and main Posts: 230	OK, stoopid question time, I don't know the difference between primary producers, secondary producers, and tuna fish sandwiches. I am just a lowly webmaster that has a box full of lawfully purchased content CD's, all of which (hopefully) have the required mumbo jumbo to make the g-men happy. Do I need a 2257 statement of some kind on all of my sites. Do I need to have the name, address, age, shoe size, favorite color, etc of every model that appears on all of my sites? Thanks SS

04-17-2003, 08:01 PM	#21
StacyCat Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,167	OKay, I got a question. Suppose me and a few other girls get in together and form a company. We base this company in a small office space in some state where one of us lives, and hire someone to run the office. We all change our domains so this company owns the domains, and the company is fully run by the girls (i.e. I operate site 1, and keep all the money minus a small amount that goes to the company) This office space would be the "companies" place of business, with someone avalible during reasonable business hours. Would something like this work? It would be a nightmare of a time getting the business paperwork drawn up so none of us could fuck over the other. It would give a central place, and the person we hire could work traffic or galleries or something, and also function as the custodian of records.

04-17-2003, 08:28 PM	#22
Carrie Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Virgin - nee Posts: 3,162	Stacy I think that as long as your site says the records can be found there, and a nice uniformed man (who refuses to be photographed for our sites, dammit) can go there during normal business hours and request those documents and have them handed to him, that the plan you outline would work fine. The postal box (or Mail Boxes Etc. and the like) doesn't work because the officer can't ask the box for papers and have them handed to him. Plus you don't keep your papers in your mailbox - you keep them at your house. So that is what the 2257 statement on your site needs to say... Think of it this way: wherever the physical paper licenses that you have for your content reside, THAT is your "place of business" in the Feds' eyes that needs to be on your 2257 statement. And obviously this can't be a security deposit box, because you don't sit next to that box every minute waiting for someone to request to see the documents. (Someone has to be there with access to the documents - which the bank won't have. The box needs your key for it to be opened.) sigh

04-17-2003, 11:52 PM	#24
Snowone Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Around the Bend Posts: 183	Go to http://www.xxxlaw.net and read the full article. There is some interesting stuff near the bottom for webmasters. But the whole page is educational, and scary...

04-18-2003, 09:10 AM	#26
Nydahl Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: closer then it appears Posts: 6,655	usefull thread man.thnx __________________ www.garciniatrio.com www.acaitrio.com www.greencoffeetrio.com ICQ 153918034 email [email protected]

04-18-2003, 09:29 AM	#27
steffie Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Mountains, far far away Posts: 2,422	Since we are small Amateur I also called my lawyer and asked him about the physical address. Over the past 7 years many of my members would love to know where I live, trust me on this. We even had guys follow us after barmeets etc. He told me "You have to put down your physical address where they can go during business hours" No po box etc. I asked him "Dammit what about my privacy" Him " They don't care, you must put down your physical address" We are so screwed, I am now trying to figure out exactly wtf I am going to do. Is this business worth having stalkers sitting outside your home? Following me? My family? Well hey, at least starting now we will all know where all those Amateurs live. So if I get pissed at one, I can go and knock on their door. Very Very scary... This will remove a lot of Amateurs from the market. If you are an Amateur or Content provider prepare to put out your home address if you work from home like me. Fuck! __________________ Partying since '96 and not going anywhere Anna's Dorm

04-18-2003, 10:52 AM	#33
StacyCat Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,167	OKay, im pretty much getting used to the fact that I will have to put my home address on my website (as much as it sucks) However, I dont keep "regular business hours." I dont work in a 9-5 industry, I may not even be home or awake during 9-5 hours. The law states "reasonable times," so, concievably, reasonalbe to me might be midnight when I am awake. Or 7am as i get off from my regular job. What happens if I fully comply with the law, but dont answer the door at noon if they knock?

04-18-2003, 11:17 AM	#35
StacyCat Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,167	OKay, how about this? The law doesnt specifically give a location that the statement must be on a specific page, but ?prominently displayed consistent with the manner of display required." Why cant I break the site up into two parts? The first part, the "free area" has no hardcore pictures, so I place an exemption statement in that area, that is accessable to anyone. The second part, the "members section" would have a full disclosure. Rational: There is nothing that says that the 2257 statement has to be avalible for anyone to read. CFR 75.8 states that in a video, it has to be at the beginning or the end, on a book it has to be on either the first page after the cover, or on its copyright statement. Nothing says it has to beon the box cover, or freely accessable to anyone. One could make a good argument that the "manner of display required" is only required to be disclosed to those that purchase the material (as in, buy the DVD to watch it, or shrink wrap the book so it cant be read without buying it) or that only before seeing the actual porn.

04-18-2003, 11:23 AM	#38
kristydoll Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Canadian Prairies Posts: 381	This has been a very interesting read - but I have a question. Does this only apply to "pictures/videos/etc? Is erotic stories included anyway in this law? kristy __________________ Professional Copy Writing Erotic Story Content

04-18-2003, 11:24 AM	#39
Bark Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Between Colorado and Missouri. Posts: 2	So what's wrong with listing your address in the html? Put a link under Custodian that opens a view of the source code. Or how about hiding it with background colored text? "Highlight for custodial records" Where is the description of what constitutes a valid and proper publishing of the address? __________________ Ah CRAP,,, my hand's stuck!

04-18-2003, 11:26 AM	#41
StacyCat Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,167	Dont just try that, I have a valid point! What if I hosted on two different domains? Would that make a difference? Im trying to get at, the law doesnt state exactly where the statement has to go on a web page. Im just trying to make it as consistant as possible with the two examples that they have listed. Nothing says it has to be free.

04-18-2003, 12:40 PM	#49
andi_germany Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 768	Simple solution. - Get a remailing address somewhere - Host all your shit in Holland or Denmark - Point the whois database to the remailing address Noone tracks your site as a US site therefore noone will ever ask you for any records on file. Might not be legal but it definately works.