Repercussions for illegal war? - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

421Fill · 03-17-2003, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Webby

The answer may be to remove the many motivations for others to think of attacks, but hell, - looks like nobody thought of that yet, - maybe one day...

There is absolutely nothing that can be done to remove the motivation. Someone will always be jealous of the US, or think that they have the perfect interpretation of their bible or what not. Defense and preventative measures are the only way.

JeremySF · 03-17-2003, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thrawn$

Now the clear version!

Israel take the palestinian country after the second war because they was killed by hitler etc..

The bible said that this region is the country of jewish so they take over the palestinian country and told muslim to shut the fuck up because it's written in the bible

they take 50% of the teritories of palestinian with the suport of the UN and USA of course. palestinian said OK

Now jewish are trying to take over the other 50% and USA said OK because of the bible

Oh, my friend, how wrong you are. Obviously, I need to give you a history lessong about Palestine.

You seem to think Jews only moved to Palestine after WWII. Sorry, they were massive waves of immigration to Palestine throughout the end of the 1800s (remember the Russian pogroms?). And in fact Palestine was a uninhabitable shithole until the Jews actually did something with the land. It was only after the Jews actually made this land bearable that significant numbers of Arabs moved in.

Moreover, can you tell me a little bit about the history of the Middle East and the decline of the Ottoman Empire? You do realize that there was no formal country called Palestine when the UN established the state of Israel. The UN proposed to establish two countries, one arab, one Jewish. What did the Arabs do? They refused, and instead Israel was attacked by 5 hostile Arab countires.

Finally, do you understand the history of this region at all? There were no countries such as Iraq, Iran, Syria, et al, until after WWI and the defeat of the Ottoman Empire. The western colonial powers divided the area into the French and British mandates. Jews, undergoing increasing persecution in Europe and Arab countries long lobbied the U.K. for their own country. Seems fair enough since they were redrawing the lines anyway and the Jews were kicked out of the land.

argh!!....i could go on and on. But obviously, it's not your fault. You're brainwashed by your media.

theking · 03-17-2003, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Webby
theking:

"We have the capability of protecting the borders of the homeland, providing we choose to apply that capability, and it will be applied if it becomes necessary. Assets abroad is a bigger problem."

??? There is no "defence" from a dedicated terrorist organization. It can take just one person to plant the seed of havoc - border protection and duct tape ain't the answer... tis a joke.

The answer may be to remove the many motivations for others to think of attacks, but hell, - looks like nobody thought of that yet, - maybe one day...

There is never a 100% defense. We are at war and there will be casualties.

Webby · 03-17-2003, 03:58 PM

turbo:

"There is absolutely nothing that can be done to remove the motivation. Someone will always be jealous of the US, or think that they have the perfect interpretation of their bible or what not. Defense and preventative measures are the only way."

Sorry - don't agree! As regards the "jealously" - that is myth - they are not "jealous". They also don't "hate the US", but they sure as hell hate the US Government to hell and back.

Just take a look at the US policies towards the Middle East over the last 20 years and the US track record will explain pretty well why there is some "animosity" generated in that region. What you sow, you will reap.

But yep, there will always be the "total nuts" who will attack "anyplace" - little answer to that kind of attack.

No matter how much military power may exist, - that is not going to stop terrorist organizations. Defend as best as possible, but never believe that will be even 70% successful.

Sadly this is a watershed time for the US (in many ways - thanks to the idiot Bush) and it stinks to hell to see things degraded to this crappy level by the current Admin.

JeremySF · 03-17-2003, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thrawn$

Now the clear version!

One more thing....why don't you do a little research and tell the history of the term Palestinian?

Let me help you.....

"Palestine" is the name the Romans gave to the parcel of land formerly known as Canaan, now known as Israel (which included Jordan and parts of Syria in Biblical times.)

The term "Palestinian" is an invention of Yasser Arafat. They are no different than any of their Arab neighbors, and most of them are descended from Arabs of the surrounding Arab countries, and not native to the land we now call Israel.

They started arriving in droves about the beginning of the 20th century, concurrently with the influx of the Jewish Zionist pioneers because there was work available for them, and because of the improvements the Jews were making to the land.

xdcdave · 03-17-2003, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JeremySF

Especially when we actually pay our dues.

In all seriousness, though, there's not much they can/will do. If they've allowed Saddam to do whatever the hell he wants for the past 12 years (much less allow genocide in Rwanda, Kosovo, etc.), what the heck are they going to do to the U.S.?

Moreover, if the War is a quick success with minimal civilian casualties, the Iraqi people are much better off than they were under Saddam, and we discover WMDs, they'll be coordinating relief efforts and aid, which is just about the only thing there somewhat good at.

Most importantly.. it will open up the .iq TLD

God I want sex.iq.. put up some bullshit eMode sex iq tests

Thrawn$ · 03-17-2003, 04:14 PM

Damm!! who the fuck you are JeremySF ???

Israel was created on 1948! and the world palestinan was not invented by yasser arafat

JeremySF · 03-17-2003, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Webby
turbo:

"There is absolutely nothing that can be done to remove the motivation. Someone will always be jealous of the US, or think that they have the perfect interpretation of their bible or what not. Defense and preventative measures are the only way."

Sorry - don't agree! As regards the "jealously" - that is myth - they are not "jealous". They also don't "hate the US", but they sure as hell hate the US Government to hell and back.

Yes and no. Eliminating the motivation or at least lessening its impact is not impossible, but it will take years and years.

As far as not buying the "jealousy" argument, I see where you're coming from, but I've spent time in the Middle East and jealousy towards the West is a very real issue. It manifests in most people awe of the west. But to many it manifests in contempt. I met far more people who were in awe rather than angry, but they both exist.

America, being a very powerful symbol of the west, is the ideal target to channel one's anger/hostility towards the west. In the eye of many people there is no greater symbol of capitalism and military might than America. And what better a target?

Quote:

Just take a look at the US policies towards the Middle East over the last 20 years and the US track record will explain pretty well why there is some "animosity" generated in that region. What you sow, you will reap.

But yep, there will always be the "total nuts" who will attack "anyplace" - little answer to that kind of attack.

Yes, America's policy (and that of our allies) towards the Middle East has been horrible and it has caused a lot of problems. The west has supported numerous tyranical dictators in the Middle East who oppress their people. Mubarak and Egypt are the second largest recipients of U.S. aid and of course Egypt record on human rights is reprehensible.

Quote:

No matter how much military power may exist, - that is not going to stop terrorist organizations. Defend as best as possible, but never believe that will be even 70% successful.

Sad but true. Unfortunately any lunatic can be a terrorist. It's not like you can just stamp it out completely. How hard is it to make a bomb? Any idiot can do it.

JeremySF · 03-17-2003, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thrawn$
Damm!! who the fuck you are JeremySF ???

Israel was created on 1948! and the world palestinan was not invented by yasser arafat

1) Would you care to read what I wrote? Yes, of course Israel was created in 1948. What's your point?

2) The term Palestinian was first used by Arafat to describe "his" people. Do you know where Arafat was born? He was born in Cairo. Attended university in Cairo. Was sent to live in Jerusalem by his father after his mother died.

The term Palestinian is relatively new. Do you realize in the world's fair of 1918, the delegation representing Palestine was all Jewish?

By using the term Palestinian Arafat can fool people like you into thinking that Palestine is the ancesteral homeland to this group of Arabs when in fact it's not.

BTW.....it's interesting that Arafat sits on top of $5B in aid, yet can seem to feed his people. Also, interesting that Arab countries find it easy to reward suicide bombers with $25K bounties, yet offer little help to your average Palestinian.

Do you remember when Arafat and his cronies plotted to assassinate King Hussein of Jordan? Do you remember what followed? The Jordanians killed 3,000 "palestinians" over a 3 day period?

TheJimmy · 03-17-2003, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JeremySF

Oh, if it were just so simple. So are you saying that if we stopped supporting Israel tomorrow, the Arab countries would love us? ......

Yes, it is this pretty much that simple...

The next time you spend months inside these "fanatics" homes speaking with them about life, politics, religion, etc....till all hours of the night, eating with them, drinking, etc.... Then we can sit down and talk about how they REALLY don't care about the Israeli issue....

HOWEVER, I agree with you wholeheartedly that there is more hate that solely the Israeli issue. Howwever from my experience or observation it was roughly about a 80/20 split on how that works. They hate us primarily for the Israeli issue and about 20% on other shit....

Please don't get me wrong I'm not trying to support or defend their position, merely state what exactly I gathered from direct personal experience back in the early 90s in that region (specifically the Ryhad & neighboring suburbs in Saudi)....

The people I came to know pretty well, from local college dudes to old bedoin guys & actually a few of the religious police (Mutawa)...were really nice people! Honestly some of the most hospitable I've ever met...

The majority had a lot of respect and admiration for the US, until we started discussing the Israeli situation.... That and the 'decadent' US culture becoming more and more of a problem in their countries, they're kinda being forced to deal with images of Madonna & Britney & don't always like that...at least not in public ;) I consider this in the same realm as how much the French love us for importing MaC-Donnalllds to them lol....it's a cultural growing pain that eventually they'll get used to.

Anyways, that's enough babbeling for me...

I agree with much of what you said, but people blow off this Israel issue too much as 'it's only propoganda' and I'm telling you, even if it is THEY are buying it and beliving it in DROVES over there...that in itself makes it REAL...

Also, as a side note I think the Palestinians and Isrealis are both guilty as fuck of doing evil shit to eachother....there are NO innocents in that region today :/ with the exception of most of the kids...and even then????????

JeremySF · 03-17-2003, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheJimmy

Yes, it is this pretty much that simple...

The next time you spend months inside these "fanatics" homes speaking with them about life, politics, religion, etc....till all hours of the night, eating with them, drinking, etc.... Then we can sit down and talk about how they REALLY don't care about the Israeli issue....

Well, I have had a some similar experience as you have had. Palestine as symbol is an incredibly powerful and unifying issue. Why do you think Osama Bin Laden started using it as a gripe after 9/11? He hardly mentioned Israel before that, though.

Arabs use Israel as a symbol to unify, fuel and justify hatred against America.

Let me provide an analogy. Let's take a racist white person who lives in abject poverty, is poorly educated and who faults all black people for their problems. They would say if it weren't for black people, then their lives would be so much better. They'd make more money. They'd be happier. blah...blah...blah... So if we got rid of black people would their lives be any better? Fuck no. They just look for a scapegoat. They need something/someone to blame for their shortcomings.

Same goes for the Middle East. Jews, Israel, the West, America are all easy targets for deflecting criticism from their own shortcomings. It's much easier to blame someone else than to take ownership of your own shortcomings.

TheJimmy · 03-17-2003, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JeremySF

.... Why do you think Osama Bin Laden started using it as a gripe after 9/11. He hardly mentioned Israel before that, though.

Israel is the symbol that unifies, fuels and justifies hatred against Amerioa.

...

Same goes for the Middle East. Jews, Israel, the West, America are all easy targets for deflecting criticism from their own shortcomings.

Good points, and I agree, the root of these problems lies primarily in poverty and ignorance.

However on your 1st statement up there, Osama may have only used it 'after' 9/11, what I was trying to mention earlier is that I heard this rage back in the early 90s coming from some of the same people that thought Osama & his ideals were nifty. It wasn't recently thought up, ok, well sure if you consider the 1950's recent ;)

Anytime someone forces a state on a region (I'm not an anti Israel by any means FYI) there is going to be trouble. I don't care if we forced a state on Germany or Africa or S. America for the Jews, or Buddists or Whoever.... There would be trouble.

Bottom line we forced an issue, made it happen, picked sides and now we're seeing some of the results of doing that.

Anyone have 2 kids in here?

Try this little experiment:

1) Make them both share a room
2) Split up the room, and force one onto a smaller less cool side of the room if possible (ie without the bathroom access)
3) Give the one with the nicer side of the room a stick, so they can defend themselves
4) Don't let the other kid have a stick
5) Tell the kid with the stick to take just a little more of the room away from the other kid monthly...
6) Tell the kid without the stick that he can only respond to the continued lack of living space with words, no throwing rocks

and see what happens in a few weeks...

See if that kid without the stick and that was setup on the wrong end of the deal, see if they harbor some ill feelings towards the parents that did that AND the other kid...

hmm? possible? maybe

again, don't get me wrong, both are doing fucked up shit to eachother and have for a VERY long time.....

wrong is wrong, we just happen to pick one of those sides and are gonna ride it out...

Rochard · 03-17-2003, 05:28 PM

The real funny part here is that everyone thinks the UN is owned by the US. Doesn't seem to be the case now, does it?

The US doesn't need the UN to okay our war.

We have the legal right to go to war with anyone we wish. Was it illegal for Germany to invade France or Poland? Was it legal for Japan to attack Pearl? It wasn't illegal.

However, who ever wins.... Can basically do what they want. The US can put Saddam on trial for all kinds of war crimes, such as gassing his citizens.

JeremySF · 03-17-2003, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheJimmy

However on your 1st statement up there, Osama may have only used it 'after' 9/11, what I was trying to mention earlier is that I heard this rage back in the early 90s coming from some of the same people that thought Osama & his ideals were nifty. It wasn't recently thought up, ok, well sure if you consider the 1950's recent ;)

Which is exactly why Osama began using the issue to unify arab resentment against the west.

Quote:

Anytime someone forces a state on a region (I'm not an anti Israel by any means FYI) there is going to be trouble. I don't care if we forced a state on Germany or Africa or S. America for the Jews, or Buddists or Whoever.... There would be trouble.

Bottom line we forced an issue, made it happen, picked sides and now we're seeing some of the results of doing that.

The entire region was forced. England/France divied up the Ottoman Empire after WWI. Jews, having long been persecuted, wanted a homeland to escape persecution. There were many promises made to the Jews to create a homeland. Recall the Balfour Declaration, in which the Brits finally concured that there should be a Jewish homeland. Of course, they changed their mind, and 6 million Jews were killed shortly thereafter in the Holocaust.

The Arabs had an opportunity to have their own "Palestinian" homeland. They chose not to because they wanted to drive the Jews into the ocean and claim all the land for themselves. The land known as Palestine actually became part of Jordan.
So why doesn't Jordan want the land back?

Israel acquired the land in the disputed/occupied terrotories after being attacked time and again by its hostile arab neighbors.

Jews were ethnically cleansed from every Arab and Muslim country in the middle east, but no one talks about that. Most of Israel's population (save for recent waves of Russian immigration) came from Muslim countries that were persectuing them.

Why has Jordan done so little to ease the refugee situation when 70% of Jordanians now consider themselves Palestinians?

It's a very complicated situation that's very hard for anyone who has not lived in the Middle East to comprehend.

DolcettChef · 03-17-2003, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RocHard
The US doesn't need the UN to okay our war.

We have the legal right to go to war with anyone we wish. Was it illegal for Germany to invade France or Poland? Was it legal for Japan to attack Pearl?

No it wasn't, which is why German officers faced war-crimes charged at Nuremberg for invading Poland, France, et. al and were hanged for it.

International law specifically forbids attacking another nation unless they DIRECTLY threaten you, i.e. they are actively invading/bombing you.

JeremySF · 03-17-2003, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RocHard

We have the legal right to go to war with anyone we wish.

TheJimmy · 03-17-2003, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JeremySF

The entire region was forced. England/France divied up the Ottoman Empire after WWI. Jews, having long been persecuted, wanted a homeland to escape persecution. There were many promises made to the Jews to create a homeland. Recall the Balfour Declaration, in which the Brits finally concured that there should be a Jewish homeland. Of course, they changed their mind, and 6 million Jews were killed shortly thereafter in the Holocaust.

The Arabs had an opportunity to have their own "Palestinian" homeland. They chose not to because they wanted to drive the Jews into the ocean and claim all the land for themselves. The land known as Palestine actually became part of Jordan.
So why doesn't Jordan want the land back?

Israel acquired the land in the disputed/occupied terrotories after being attacked time and again by its hostile arab neighbors.

Jews were ethnically cleansed from every Arab and Muslim country in the middle east, but no one talks about that. Most of Israel's population (save for recent waves of Russian immigration) came from Muslim countries that were persectuing them.

Why has Jordan done so little to ease the refugee situation when 70% of Jordanians now consider themselves Palestinians?

It's a very complicated situation that's very hard for anyone who has not lived in the Middle East to comprehend.

Ok Jeremy, on these points all I can reply is "well said"

I agree that Jews have been fucked for a very very very long time, by many different people...

However it doesn't necessarily excuse the current fucking they're doing to their neighbors, however historically deserved...

Dude, I'd hate to see the day the Native Americans use this same concept back on whitey in this country... But who's gonna sell them their f-16s & apaches? ;)

Carrie · 03-17-2003, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
One of the benefits of Bush breaking interational law is that maybe we'll never have to hear Republicans chanting "rule of law" again. Time to retire that old Clinton-era Republican favorite.

We are not breaking international law.
This will not be an illegal war.
Go read through the UN Resolutions and come back more informed.

03-17-2003, 04:14 PM	#57
Thrawn$ Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mtl Posts: 4,596	Damm!! who the fuck you are JeremySF ??? Israel was created on 1948! and the world palestinan was not invented by yasser arafat __________________ Tracking 202 \| Start Tracking PPC Campaigns Like A Pro

03-17-2003, 05:28 PM	#63
Rochard Jägermeister Test Pilot Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NORCAL Posts: 74,098	The real funny part here is that everyone thinks the UN is owned by the US. Doesn't seem to be the case now, does it? The US doesn't need the UN to okay our war. We have the legal right to go to war with anyone we wish. Was it illegal for Germany to invade France or Poland? Was it legal for Japan to attack Pearl? It wasn't illegal. However, who ever wins.... Can basically do what they want. The US can put Saddam on trial for all kinds of war crimes, such as gassing his citizens. __________________ “The choice is no longer between right or left. The choice is between normal and crazy.” - Sarah Huckabee Sanders YNOT MAIL \| THE BEST ADULT MAILING SOLUTION

03-17-2003, 03:58 PM	#54
Webby Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Far far away - as possible Posts: 14,956	turbo: "There is absolutely nothing that can be done to remove the motivation. Someone will always be jealous of the US, or think that they have the perfect interpretation of their bible or what not. Defense and preventative measures are the only way." Sorry - don't agree! As regards the "jealously" - that is myth - they are not "jealous". They also don't "hate the US", but they sure as hell hate the US Government to hell and back. Just take a look at the US policies towards the Middle East over the last 20 years and the US track record will explain pretty well why there is some "animosity" generated in that region. What you sow, you will reap. But yep, there will always be the "total nuts" who will attack "anyplace" - little answer to that kind of attack. No matter how much military power may exist, - that is not going to stop terrorist organizations. Defend as best as possible, but never believe that will be even 70% successful. Sadly this is a watershed time for the US (in many ways - thanks to the idiot Bush) and it stinks to hell to see things degraded to this crappy level by the current Admin.