shows that citizens united ruling needs to be reversed because unlimited money in campaigns is baaad

You don't post facts, you post your opinions. You said "The Branch Davidians didn't have any illegal weapons" yet they did. You also said people died because of the tear gas attack, and then pointed out the report that said the direct opposite.

You don't post facts and you don't even read what you link up to.

Did you know that the last Republican government destroyed our economy, which is why so many people are on food stamps?

Don't tell me people are on welfare because of Obama. They are on welfare because of what happened BEFORE Obama was elected.

In this case, you would have he democrats vote for Obamacare, and the Republicans would vote for plan b. The people in the middle would decide, and the republicans will tell us about how Obamacare funds death boards where doctors get to decide who lives and dies - meaning, both sides will spin their version and who ever spins the best will win.

I think what we need to do is do Obamacare, figure out what's wrong with it, and then fix those items. Scrapping it and starting again isn't going to fix anything.

It's all about "spin".

Call it Obamacare and everyone sees a constant battle with Republicans.

Call it the "affordable helathcare act" and people think "Gee, that sounds like a good idea, affordable healthcare".

Rochard debates you all of the time based on facts. I am not sure why you would ignore some dude who seems to go toe-to-toe with you in every debate on most of your subject matter.


:2 cents:

I would say that if that same "Test" were held 20 years ago (or at anytime in U.S. history before then) it would have been a resounding "NO" on Obamacare.

Unfortunately, the Federal Govt. (dems and repubs) now have the majority of the American people receiving some kind of "govt. assistance"

That's the first time in the history of our country that has happened. Over 50% of the people now get something from the govt. :(

And when you are getting something from the govt., well...you tend to want MORE. So you vote accordingly.
Back in the old days it used to be called "Buying Votes".

And if you noticed the election results... the areas where people get "free" stuff from the govt. voted overwhelmingly Democrat (the NorthEast big cities).
The areas of the country where people do not...voted Republican.

If you look at the election map and just went with what the map of the U.S. looks like and have it painted Red and Blue...it would appear that Romney won big time.

But the tiny blue areas are places like New York, Philadelphia, Detroit, Boston, Chicago...giant cities full of people on govt. assistance.

Just an observation.

You know better than that.

The economy collapsed because the housing market collapsed.

The economy is slowly reviving because the housing market is reviving.

You might want to start watching some business networks. They have really good analysis of the economy and how it works.

To just say it was "Republicans" (meaning the evil Bush), is totally wrong. It was a lot of things that started back during the Clinton Administration by Congress and continued on until the "bubble" burst.

Housing. End of story. Housing caused it. Housing is fixing it.

We get it,,you are a for the people bleeding heart liberal. SO why don't you tell us what it is you actually do for the people. Actually, there is no need. The answer is obvious.

You do nothing. You like obama and you think that's all there is to do. And you hate people like me that don't agree with your ideals.

The difference between us, is I put my time and my money where my mouth is. If you'd like to attend I am again sponsoring meals for children. Last year we barely missed our goal of 1 million meals to Haitian children. And when I say sponsor, I don't just mean writing out the check. I mean hosting it and spending many hours at the table putting together the meals. Last year we had over 120 people here participating. And they were all the people you hate.
Doctors, lawyers, business people who give up their time and money.

These kinds of chartitable events go on constantly. You have this idea that everyone in business or has done ok in the US is Gordon Gekko.. They aren't.

My staff and I work hard to make the plant a safe and productive place. And we are succeeding. We spend countless hours researching the best benefit programs.

My philosophy on finance and business has never varied. If you're interested go back 10 years and read any of my posts. I was against obamacare when it was first rolled out for strictly financial reasons and that has not changed.

Call it "Treating Citizens Like Criminals" and everyone is against it.

Call it "The Patriot Act" and people THINK: "Gee, that sounds like a good idea, I'm a patriot too!"

A new good name for obamacare.... McMedicine.:winkwink:

The repeal of Glass/Stegall is the main cause for Wall Street running wild for a decade, which led to to the housing credit default swap scam. That's Clinton's fault for ok'ing the repeal of the law, but it was spearheaded by a Republican Congress.

I'd guess its closer to 100% of the people get something from the government. Ever drive on a road?

There's a lot of poor (white) people down south who get government assistance, and if you look at a final 2012 electoral map, it resembles the Civil War Union and Confederacy. Do you think some toothless trailer trash redneck voted for Obama?

That free stuff bullshit is a Bill O Reilly talking point, and I know that because I was watching his show when he said it.

The GOP gerrymandering fairies are gonna have to work triple overtime between now and November 2014, or we'll finally going to witness the end of the stupid party, once and for all!

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003...rs_xlarge.jpeg

Why do you give a shit?

No illegal weapons were found at Waco, it's Texas, they can own Machine Guns and Silencers there. They only found 200 weapons there, For Texas, that's a small amount of weapons and the Local Police had already before all that crap happened inspected their weapons finding nothing to worry about. Clinton said they were stock piling weapons, what a load of shit!

A special committee in congress found that it was the Tear gas along with the tactics that the FBI used that killed most of those children.

Barry has been president for 5 years, what has he done to lesson the amount of people on welfare? Because it's not working! Sending the FDA to teach Mexican Nationals to use food stamps sure isn't helping.

A leader takes charge and doesn't blame others

I'm not going over this shit again.

Rochard is a moron that can't read, I can't help that

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...leaning-state/

Them gops take with both hands lol

I think you are right - but only because twenty years ago there wasn't a need for healthcare. You get sick, you went to the doctor and paid cash. If you went to the hospital, you paid cash. Twenty years ago we could afford to just pay cash; That's what my folks did. But now a single visit to the ER is more than most Americans can afford.

republicans are ignorant most of the time.

He just doesn't listen.

From the very report you showed us: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquer...49&dbname=104&

"After the siege, the Texas Rangers conducted an extensive search of the Branch Davidian compound. They discovered 48 illegal machine guns, seven illegal explosives of various types, nine illegal silencers and over 200,000 rounds of ammunition."

No illegal weapons at all right Brett?

No, the committee found just the opposite. Again, from the same report:

Not only did they start the fire, they also refused to leave. This was a mass suicide. Anyone that wanted to leave was killed by the Branch Davidians.

I love this. I'm posting quotes from the report he is mentioning, yet he claims I can't read (and then calls me a moron). Fucking Brilliant.

Then he blocks me so he can't read my posts because I "don't fight fair".

Who is the moron now?

We all know exactly what happened. While I honestly do not believe that Bush was directly at fault, we all knew it was coming, and the Bush administration did nothing to prevent it and then nothing to fix it. It happened on the Republican watch, and then they did nothing to fix it since then. All they do is battle the Democrats in Congress, loosing more often than winning.

That is paid for by gasoline taxes. Pres. Clinton put that federal gasoline tax on us back in the 1990's. (federal highways that is).
As for local roads...they are paid for in various taxes as well.

So no...100% of the people do not get a check from the govt. (which is what I'm pointing out)...but for the first time in history over 50% of the American people DO.

But I'm guessing you already knew that and are just trying to argue.

It's not Clintons fault...it's the lifetime, career politicians (both republican and democrat) in Congress.

They never leave...and we pay the price for it.

I lived in the "South" all my life. And yeah, there are plenty of stupid white trash...and also plenty of stupid black and Mexican trash. Also plenty of hard working white, black, and Mexican folks.

As for Bill O'Reilly...I could give a shit what he says.

You obviously think that big govt. is a good thing. I don't.

You should check this out sometime. It's written in 1776, but still makes a lot of COMMON SENSE:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_...%28pamphlet%29

Off subject but it's GFY so what ya gonna do....

What is our government going to do when we move over to electric cars and we generate our own solar power? Who is gonna pay for roads then?

We need to limit the amount of time people spend in Congress. There should be no such thing as "lifetime career politicians". The problem is these people go to Congress and get too powerful, too punch happy, and throw their weight around too much. "Oh, I owe you a favor and you want me to kill this bill? No problem, consider it done". Fuck that. It shouldn't be like this.

Congress has the lowest approval rate ever.

:Oh crap

In other news....

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/10-sta...164506466.html

No one paid cash twenty years ago. 50 maybe but not twenty.

I find it so odd that the republicans don't push for a federal healthcare like the rest of the world. Our businesses struggle under the extra burden of being the healthcare provider in this country. It adds to the cost of every product we make and makes the USA less competitive. Help business out and more this off the corporate plate.

Bullshit. I paid cash for all my healthcare. Didn't have health insurance until 2002 when I was 41 years old.

Nobody I knew (talking about friends, acquaintances, etc.) had health insurance except my grandma.

It wasn't that expensive then. If you have been following the conversation you would have seen this discussed.
When hospitals are overcharging you, prescription drugs cost more in the U.S. than anywhere else in the world...and countries actually have websites for "medical tourism" because it's cheaper to go to another country, fly first class, and stay in a 5 star hotel while you recover than it is to go to the hospital in the U.S. then you would realize what the problem is.

I don't know how old you are, or where you have lived in the U.S., but I have lived in a few areas and I turned 18 in 1979.
In my lifetime I've watched healthcare costs go completely out of control.

THAT is what ObamaCare is supposed to fix in case you didn't notice.

But it doesn't even address the high prices of healthcare.

All that Democrats keep saying about that is that suddenly and mysteriously after over 200 years....that healthcare costs exploded because of people going to the emergency room for "healthcare" and skipping the bill.

That has always happened. But suddenly...it caused healthcare costs to rise through the roof.

I'd say the real answer would be to look at the profit sheets of Big Pharma and the Big Medical Corp. that own hospitals and of course Big Insurance.
There is your answer.

Again...IF the federal govt. wasn't under the control of Big Pharma, Big Insurance, and Big Medical Corp. then healthcare wouldn't be allowed to be price gouged on us and this wouldn't be an issue.

MMmm... I'm sure. ;)



That was fucking scary... and to think assholes were actually applauding that.




Ted Cruz during his stupid rant in congress the other day actually said this: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.. Ted Cruz!!! What a fucking idiot. He's an embarrassment to republicans (another addition to the huge list) and he's an embarrassment to Canada (me +1)

I don't like either party and think the whole system should still be bound to the constitution; with elected public servants being required to have a regular job and serving in government only part time, without pay.

But just to put fairness into your post, 99% of democrats are authoritarians most of the time

In the case of Big Pharma "the large amount of cash Big Pharma bestows on government representatives and regulatory bodies is small when compared with the billions it spends each year on direct-to-consumer advertising. In 2012, the industry invested nearly $3.5 billion into marketing drugs on the Internet, TV, radio and other outlets. The United States is one of only two countries in the world whose governments allow prescription drugs to be advertised on TV (the other is New Zealand)."

"The world’s 11 largest drug companies made a net profit of $711.4 billion from 2003 to 2012. Six of these companies are headquartered in the United Sates: Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, Abbot Laboratories, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb and Eli Lilly. In 2012 alone, the top 11 companies earned nearly $85 billion in net profits."

I can tell you that it pays to shop for pharmaceuticals as the prices can fluctuate as much as several hundred percent from one pharmacy to another for the same identical drug and same identical brand name.

To save even more money...one should not only shop around...but one should buy generic drugs when possible. Same ingredients as a brand name but significantly cheaper in price.

My parents never had healthcare. They paid for everything out of pocket.

How can you defend the Waco crew? The fires were started by them. They have audio of it. Should the US have gone in at all? Very debatable. It is obvious he was a sick sadistic fuck with tons of arms and the means to make them illegal. Automatic weapons are not legal there, and that is how they got the initial warrant. But why do you feel a need to get all excited over what happened there of all places?

It is not any more legal to own Machine Guns in Texas than it is in most other states. The NFA applies to Texas also.

If you are an American citizen living in a state that does not bar private possession of an NFA (National Firearms Act of 1934) weapon...have the price of a nice car...the approval of your local police chief or county sheriff...can pass and are willing to wait months for a major-league background check...have $200.00 for the tax stamp and are willing to let the authorities know whenever you take it anywhere...then yes...you can have your very own Machine Gun.

It is my understanding that the Davidians were not in compliance with the NFA.

n total, the Texas Department of Public Safety, led by the Texas
Rangers, recovered more than 300 firearms from the Branch
Davidian compound. In addition, a number of live grenades and
more than 300 grenade components were uncovered. Hundreds of
thousands of rounds of ammunition were also seized.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms investigated David
Koresh for conduct involving: the illegal manufacture of machine
guns and the illegal manufacture and possession of destructive
devices. The FBI report provides evidence that the Davidians'
arsenal did indeed include weapons unlawfully manufactured. The
weapons listed include semiautomatic firearms illegally modified
to fire in full automatic mode, as well as grenades and
silencers. All of these weapons were unlawfully possessed.

WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND:
TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS
AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

ILLEGAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
Machine guns

The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been
modified to fire in full automatic mode:

22 M-16 Type Rifles

20 AK-47 Type Rifles

2 Heckler and Koch SP-89

2 M-11/Nine

The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been
modified to fire in full automatic mode.

Silencers

21 Sound suppressors or silencers

Hand Grenades

4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades

The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers,
or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's
residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it
would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons.
WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND:
TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS
AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

TOTAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
(Including Weapons Mentioned on Previous Page)

FIREARMS
Rifles and Rifle Components

61 M-16 Type and 2 M-16 Lower Receivers

61 AK-47 Type

34 AR-15 Type and 2 AR-15 Lower Receivers

13 Shotguns -- 12 gauge

11 7.62MM FN FAL Type

10 Mini-14 Type

7 37mm. Flare Gun/Launcher Type

6 .30 Carbine Calber US Carbine, Model M1

6 Assorted Rifles

5 M-11/Nine

5 M-14 Type

3 Galil

2 Heckler and Koch SP-89

1 Air Rifle

1 Heckler and Koch MP-5

1 Sten submachine gun

Pistols and Revolvers

23 Beretta

13 Glock

8 Assorted Revolvers

6 Safari Arms

6 Assorted Pistols

5 Sig Sauer

5 Walther

2 Taurus

EXPLOSIVES

Hand Grenades

4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades

100+ Modified M-21 Practice Hand Grenade bodies; the bodies
of these had been threaded and plugged but lacked a main charge
or fusing system.

11 M-69 Practice Hand Grenades; the bodies of these
grenades exhibited indications of attempted modifications.

219 Grenade Safety Pins

243 Grenade Safety Levers

Rifle Grenades

200+ Inert M31 Practice Rifle Grenades.

FIREARMS ACCESSORIES AND PARTS

Silencers

21 Sound suppressors or silencers.

Flash Suppressors

18 Flash Suppressors.

Firearms Barrels

17 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56mm)

8 M-16/AR-15 Type (9mm caliber)

3 M-16/AR-15 Type (.45 ACP caliber)

1 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56mm)

2 Ruger. 22 Caliber

1 M-60 machine gun

1 12 Gauge Shotgun

1 Taurus, Model 92, 9mm pistol barrel

1 Sig Sauer 9mm pistol barrel

Pistol Slides

1 Sig Sauer Model

Revolver Parts

1 .38 Special caliber cylinder

Bolt Carriers

39 M-16

24 AR-15

2 MP-5

2 AK-47

1 FAL

1 Unknown

Bolts

15 AK-47

7 .22 LR conversion

3 M-16/AR-15

1 FN FAL (1)

Bolt Assemblies

3 M-11/Nine

2 M-16

1 AR-15

1 MAC-10

1 Shotgun

Recoil Springs and Guides

3 Glock

2 Sig Sauer

1 Beretta

1 M-11/Nine

Stripper Clips

29 Stripper Clips

Accessories

6 .22 LR Caliber Conversion Kits

Hammers

31 AK-47

18 M-16

12 AR-15

4 M-11/Nine

2 Sig Sauer

1 Beretta

Hammer Springs

3 AK-47

Buffer/Recoil Springs

36 M-16/AR-15

4 AK-47

Selector Switches

9 M-16

3 AR-15

1 Unknown

Sears

1 M-11/Nine

Auto Sears

8 AK-47

4 M-16

1 FN FAL

Auto Sear Springs

12 AK-47

Disconnects

7 AK-47

1 M-16

Trigger/Trigger Mechanisms/Trigger Housings

17 M-16

6 AR-15

3 M-60

3 M-11/Nine

2 MP-5

2 Sten

1 AK-47

1 Heckler & Koch

1 M-14

1 Smith & Wesson

1 Beretta

1 Shotgun

Ammunition Magazines

289 7.62 x 39mm AK-47 Type

248 .223/5.56mm M-16/AR-15 Type

108 Sten Gun Type

88 .308 Caliber FN FAL Type

72 M-14 Type

61 Beretta Model Type 92

58 .308 Caliber of Unknown Type

28 Ruger Mini-14 Type

22 .22 Caliber

17 UZI Type

16 USAS-12 Type

13 .45 Caliber

11 Glock

11 MP-5

11 Sig Sauer P226/P228

9 Unknown Type

7 .308 Caliber Galil Type

6 Walther PPK

5 9mm Unknown Type

4 .50 Caliber

3 .30 Caliber U.S. Carbine

3 .380 Auto Caliber

2 9mm Smith & Wesson

1 AK-74 Type

1 Grendel

Ammunition Containers

220 Metal Boxes (Various Calibers)

15 Wooden Boxes (Various Calibers)

4 Buckets (Varioius Calibers)

1 Cardboard Boxes (Various Calibers)

Magazine Springs

360 M-16/AR-15

42 FN FAL .308 Caliber Type

35 AK-47

28 9mm Magazine Springs of Unknown Type

15 Unknown

10 M-14

6 M-1 Carbine

3 .50 Caliber

1 Mini-14 Magazine

1 Glock
These lists do not include dozens of other items recovered from
the Compound such as dust covers, extractors, front and rear
sights, gun cleaning equipment, bolt release levers,
compensators, .50 caliber belt links and numerous other parts.

Seeming this government shutdown is guaranteed now. Unless Boenher teams up with the democrats to vote it through which would be political suicide

What?

Are you supporting the idea that land mass is more important than population? Obama won both the popular vote and electoral college but you are correct he didn't when it came down to land mass...... is your Argument that Alaska should have more voting power than New York because Alaska is a bigger state land wise?

And please look at the link provided by tony:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...leaning-state/

I don't know where you are getting your information but is pretty general knowledge that there are more red states receiving net government funds per tax dollar spent.

What would of happened 20 years ago is totally irrelevant. The GOP spent billions on to get the people on board with repealing Obamacare and he still won, let the people live with their decision.

If Obamacare is going to raise rates, cut services and break the economy, then GOP will have a cake walk in 2016 and will be able to repeal the law with majorities in the House/Senate/WH. The problem is that if it is at all better than the status quo then Obamacare will stick and be expanded...... and this is the fight we are seeing because anything is better than the status quo

No. I never said that.

It's amazing to me how easy it is for the written word to be totally and completely misunderstood.

I was pointing out that in areas that have a large population of people on the govt. dole that they vote Democrat. And in areas that have less of them on govt. handouts, they tend to vote Republican.

Doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of both in all the states. The vote in most states is pretty damn close percentage-wise. The winner usually gets only a few percentage points more votes than his opponent.

I think Obama won the election easily. But I'm pointing out that when you are in the party that is publicly perceived to be the one that favors govt. handouts, and then you have the majority of people for the first time in history getting govt. handouts...then the election is almost predetermined at that point.

I also think that this "winner takes all" electoral voting is bullshit.

Say Obama had won 49% of the votes in a state and Romney won 51%. But the current system gave ALL of that states votes to Romney.
It's bullshit. And makes people feel like their vote didn't count.
In that scenario, the electoral votes should be awarded to each man by the amount of the popular vote.

But I'm getting off track now...

I also showed that is total and compete BULLSHIT.

The "red" states that get "govt. funds"...the stats you are seeing are counting MILITARY BASES and military installations. Cooked stats that are skewed to give a false impression.

In the thread that Tony had put up months ago about that...I showed that to him, proved it with links to govt. numbers, and he agreed.

New Mexico was one of the states that was mentioned. But the skewed stats that YOU are getting YOUR information from were counting military bases, nuclear missile launch stations, nuclear clean up, even fucking Area 51 lol!

Yeah, when you add in billions of dollars of military into the numbers it adds up fast.

But as far as civilians getting govt. checks every week? No.

I'll agree about the electoral system being whack and making no sense -- and to add to that...states like Montana should have 1 representative, and more populous states should accordingly have 2 or more.

Anyway, I know a lot of people who voted Obama, including myself -- and we don't rely on Government handouts. Actually, we all do better than average income-wise. This majority getting government handouts thing you keep talking about is a FOX news talking point.

A lot of people voted for Obama because the alternative is repugnant. Anyone who couldn't see Romney was a shitstain of human being needs to start paying attention to things.

First off...I voted for Obama in 2008.
And I NEVER said that people who voted Obama all get handouts.

What I said was that if you poll people who DO get handouts in major cities (and I'm talking about actual govt. checks that are not entitlements) they pretty much vote 100% Democrat.
It's buying votes.

As for it being a "Fox News talking point"... I've heard it said on CNN as well by analysts. But that's not where I'm getting my ideas from.
I'm not stupid or ignorant. And I have traveled quite a bit around the country over the years and met a lot of people.
I do have eyes to see and I am also smart enough to KNOW that the way our federal govt. is spending money is unsustainable.

And no, I don't think Romney is a "shitstain" anymore than I think Obama is a "shitstain".
I think they are BOTH crooks (politicians).

I think they are BOTH out for the companies and military interests that fund BOTH of them.

And I think that our election laws should be changed to get rid of the real problem: Congress.
With lifetime, career politicians who are all multi-millionaires...it is what is destroying our country.

They don't give a shit about what the people who sent them there want.

It should be "One And Done" for politicians. And as someone else said...they should all be required to have and KEEP full time jobs.

SERVING the federal govt. should be without pay and a part time job.

Do we really need Congress in session every day making MORE laws every day?

The govt. just keeps growing and growing and growing. And I've never seen anyone articulate a vision of when it will slow the fuck down.

And logic dictates that if it just keeps getting bigger and bigger it will eventually do...what?

I was watching Bill Maher last night on HBO and he had Robert Reich on. And Reich was actually saying that during the times that economy has been good, it was BECAUSE of higher taxes on the "wealthy"!

I had to ask myself...what in the fuck do taxes have to do with the economy?
I had no answer.

But people that are entrenched in govt. are so full of themselves and their importance to everything that they believe that.

And I'll be damned if they haven't done everything they can to try and get the govt. involved in EVERYTHING in our lives so that will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Damn, I'm typing too much. Lol

Gonna get out of here...it's Saturday.

According to this 47 percent are millionaires.

http://www.politifact.com/georgia/st...ionaires-club/

Vice President Joe Biden whom has been in Federal Politics for more than 40 years is not and has never been a millionaire.

You don't get it, do you? Vendzilla follows a handful of rebpulican nut job gun loving sites and believes every word they publish.

The gun nut jobs think the government had no right to look into the nut cases in Waco, and that is was "excessive police force". During the INTIAL raid multiple police officers were shot and killed; Turns out they didn't use enough force.

The best part is the report Vendzilla continues to reference says the direct opposite of what he is saying....