pornguy

I see a whole bunch of things on there that can be whacked in half.

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_Richard_

trolled hard.. this guy thinks he's rich folks

just remember that.

Minte

I know you are completely accurate on both points. During the holidays I haven't had any meetings or shows to go too in a couple of weeks. Too much time in the office!
Wednesday I am traveling and it's back to normal business until Christmas with much less sitting around time.

It certainly is interesting here to see the passion that so many of these people have for their government and for others to pay more taxes. How it's changed since the early days of GFY when a large share of the people were successful.

12clicks

sadly, gfy is a microcosm of society.
The rabble push the successful out.

12clicks

exhibit a

crockett

I agree the world is of course a better place with out Saddam, but I always looked at that war as the turning point toward that fall, which led us on our spiraling downward trend we find ourselves in today. We could have likely handled the one war in Afghan but having two wars on the plate stressed the economy and we had to borrow far too much.

I sort of look at that war perhaps how many look at the banking collapse and the bail outs as money transfers to the rich. Iraq was nothing more than a giant money transfer to corporations like Halliburton & the other defense industry contractors and the American public got little to nothing but a big bill and a bad name.

Think if that same money had been reinvested back into this country where we would be today, or better yet had it not even been borrowed. Both wars have cost this country something in the tune of $3.2-4 trillion dollars.

ColBigBalls

Don't forget Afghanistan.

Relentless

Yes I agree with that completely. Getting McConnell and Kerry or Axelrod and McCain on the same page is no easy task... and that's a very good thing. We want the status quo to win most of the time. We want big changes to be slow and hard fought. That gives us stability. Many of the problems we now face are the result of signing statements, unilateral decisions and misuse of the war powers of the commander in chief to circumvent legislative oversight. Many of the problems we will face stem from Citizens United and a homogenization of the legislature by one handful of big money players.

All that being said... they have had 3 years and an election to help align them for the fiscal cliff and there is plenty of support for exactly what I think will eventually happen from both sides of the aisle. Now they have to sell it to their 'teams' as if they won rather than compromised. Caps on deductions, small rise in top marginal rates, cuts in military and medicare spending, the buffet rule, elimination of loopholes like carried interest and a rise in capital gains taxes or reform in how they get applied. It's a pretty easy deal to make but not an easy one to sell to the public on either side.

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GregE

Afghanistan was different.. bin Laden was based there.

Saddam cheered from the sidelines on 9/11, but he didn't have anything to do with it.

Apples and oranges.

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Robbie

How many times do you need it pointed out to you that the wars had NOTHING to do with the economy collapsing?
Is this really how uninformed people are?

Let me say it one more time: The wars were a huge mistake and helped drive our debt through the ceiling. Total disasters.

The ECONOMY collapsed because of the housing market collapse in the 3rd quarter of 2008. That was caused by bills that were passed in Congress in the 1990's that created a housing bubble.
When the housing market collapsed, banks started failing. The economy collapsed.

Do you even understand what happened?

The war caused more debt. Didn't affect the economy one bit in 2008.

The housing market collapse (caused by CONGRESS in the 1990's) is what caused the economic collapse at the end of 2008 and has us in bad shape right now.

I feel like I'm talking to fence posts on here. (not trying to be disrespectful to you, but goddamn...even if you WERE ignorant of how things work, it's been pointed out a dozen times in these threads)

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

Robbie

More mis-information.

The "fiscal cliff" is nothing more than The Budget Control Act Of 2011.

It's the bill that the President and both houses of Congress were congratulating themselves on last year!

Now that it's actually going to take effect (because they didn't cut the debt on their own)...they have dubbed it: "The Fiscal Cliff" and it's a bunch of horseshit politics.

In other words...the "fiscal cliff" didn't even exist "3 years and an election" ago. It was CREATED last year by the govt.

The media is really misinforming people, and nobody seems to have a memory. This was passed LAST YEAR, and you've already forgotten.

The "fiscal cliff" was a bipartisan act that will put us on track to begin lowering our debt and SAVE our country.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

_Richard_

i have been asked, nicely, not to play with you anymore 12clicks

Robbie

Richard, do you work for Sextronix or just flying their banner in your sig?

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

keysync

He works for them.

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Robbie

Oh, ok. Just wondering. Been promoting them a bit the last few months.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

keysync

Me too! This is how I know.

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_Richard_

rock on my info is in sig if you need any help!

Robbie

Thanks. Actually the admin and promo emails have everything needed. It's well put together and some nice sites.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

_Richard_

we're obviously pumping out the redesigns, and i may have something special for the Holidays

so keep yer eyes peeled!

DTK

^^^^ Pretty much this

Taking it a little further, massive fraud by the banks & ratings agencies, coupled with lax/non-existent regulation & oversight, crushed the economy. By comparison, the wars were 'just' big frauds.

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tony286

sorry my bad not as sharp with the flu and a fever. If I dont make it, I request you play 10 yrs gone at my funeral

Robbie

In hindsight I'd say the wars were the worst thing our country has done in a long time.

Preemptively invading other countries, eroding our own freedoms at home...history won't look kindly at Bush for that.

The economy hurts us worse in the "here and now". But when this recession is nothing but a faded memory...the militaristic adventures abroad and the erosion of our freedoms at home by the U.S. govt. is gonna have long lasting effects.

~cue the people telling me how "free" we are...and I say right now: the govt. is searching you at airports, tapping phones, imprisoning people without trial, etc. That's not the United States Of America that I grew up believing in~

A few years back I was very pro-war.
I (like a lot of people) was sick and tired of crazy Muslims killing Americans and blowing people up, etc.
And I was happy when we invaded Afghanistan. I thought we were going to "teach them a lesson". And maybe we would have if we had conquered them (I think it took like a week or two that our military toppled the Afghan military), and then LEFT.

But of course....our govt. just can't stop itself from trying to boss everybody around. So we stayed, and stayed, and stayed.
A nightmare.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

chaze

Either way they will get our money, the Republicans will get it through business or the Democrats will get it with taxes. Either way we are all screwed.

12clicks

If I were your boss I'd want you to stop embarrassing the company too.

12clicks

How exactly will the republicans get our money "through business"?

BFT3K

More corporate welfare - less corp taxes collected - a continuation of absurd loopholes, etc.

Relentless

Robbie,

The wars did affect the collapse in profound ways. Not having 1T+ cash on hand makes it a lot harder to deal with the banking meltdown. Destabilizing the middle east makes it harder to stabilize our economy, the EU etc. Pissing off most of our diplomatic ties made it harder to handle international fraud by the banks. You are correct that the root cause of the collapse was the banking meltdown and housing bubble crash... but the wars took attention off those issues, wasted resources that would have been very helpful and strained the kind of relationships that are needed during those kinds of crisis moments. An expensive stimulus package to avert a depression is a lot easier to manage when you aren't also trying to fund two unfunded wars and a set of unfunded tax cuts.

It's as if a fireman shows up to a burning building and the hydrant is busted so he can't get more than a trickle of water out of it. No, the hydrant didn't cause the fire but it is definitely a key factor in why the whole building burns down rather than just fills with smoke before being put out.

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Minte

The option to corporations is to raise consumer prices. Unfortunately the stock market allows people that actually expect a dividend on their investments to participate.

Corporations don't find a way to show profits, the shareholders lose their investments.

What's the solution

_Richard_

so gambling is now too big to fail? sounds like it's societies fault that peoples investment didn't pay off.. how is that?

if a corporation doesn't find a way to show profits, shouldn't it fail?

Isn't it, socialist in the worst possible way, to prop up these companies in order for people to get their 'investments'?

Relentless

The first part of the solution is to separate absolutely necessary components of a stable, safe, healthy society from discretionary products and services or luxuries. The idea that someone making dildos should be profit motivated is a good one... the idea that production of *basic* food, health care, energy, security and the like should also be purely profit motivated segments of society is simply ridiculous. We do not allow police to be a for profit industry. We don't need to allow ADM and Conagra to abuse the public or allow oil conglomerates to flood the gulf with crude thanks to recklessness in the name of shareholder satisfaction either.

The ADMs, Enrons, CounrtyWide Mortgages, Humanas and BPs of the world do much more damage each year than all the welfare recipients will do in their entire lifetime.... because those entities are allowed to hold the public hostage by either being 'too big to fail' or by 'selling' people products and services that people have no choice but to buy.

The dividing line needs to be much brighter and the regulations on one need to have much sharper teeth than the other.

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chaze

Exactly and the fact that most major corporations and bank CEO's and Presidents are mostly republican and can care less about the country and it's people.

There was a day when people actually cared about their country and fellow man, now a days it's dog eat dog.

I'm in the middle of the road because caring about people is important but not letting people fend for themselves is counter productive.

Simple tax and regulate the huge corporations and major importing.

Don't help people that don't work other then shelter and food (bare basics) and most important penalize people for using too much health care.

People need to learn how to take care of themselves not have the country pay billions for their fast food habit.

Relentless

Bloomberg has the right ideas on that front. Tax the hell out of cigarettes, alcohol, soda, twinkies and the like. If people want to be drunk 400 pound chain-smokers good for them, but they can pay for their drag on healthcare along the way with stiff tax premiums on items proven to make their societal cost higher. At the same time, subsidize the hell out of actual vegetables and other things that reduce their cost along the way. The market will quickly take advantage of the tilt in the tax code and you'll see McDonalds selling a lot more salads and a lot less corn fed beef when their dollar menu becomes healthy items and Big Mac 'Value meals' cost $17.00 each.

The main reason it doesn't happen is ADM and Conagra make huge money from foolish corn subsidies.

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Robbie

"1T+ cash on hand"

What in the world are you talking about? WHO has this imaginary cash on hand?

The economy collapsed for ONE reason: the crash of the housing market bubble

The DEBT was run up by Bush. And yes, it's gonna bite us hard (and Obama just keeps adding to it )

But the economy was ROARING...right up until the housing market collapsed and the banks started falling right behind it.

There was and is no such thing as 1T+ in cash just lying around for a rainy day that was spent on the war. That was all borrowed money and/or the feds printing more money.

And a lot of that money actually went right back into the economy paying all the companies that service our war machine...but that's just not the way we should want the economy to run anyway.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

12clicks

what's absurd is the concept that the bottom has bought into that corporations should be taxed at all.
Here in the real world, countries have come to understand that if you want jobs, you don't drive away businesses by over taxing them. The US is currently in a competition over jobs. jobs are supplied by corporations. Corporations are being wooed by other countries.
Go ahead and TRY to tax corporations, they'll simply leave.
Go ahead and tax the rich, they'll simply hide their money.
This notion that the rabble is somehow owed the money of the productive and the government is going to wrest it from them for you is silly.

12clicks

here is a perfect example of people with no concept of personal freedoms.
on one side of these people's mouths they explain how the government shouldn't be giving tax breaks for social engineering (mortgage deductions, dependent deductions, etc) and on the other side of their mouth they want the government to TAX to social engineer.

12clicks

how silly.
I'm sure as long as its major corporations' and bank CEO's and Presidents' money, you're the most caring person in the world but as soon as the tax man points at you, all the sudden your altruism is out the door.

The rich prop up your entire way of life. have the intelligence and decency to understand that. Then understand that the people in our government are politicians, not leaders. If you could understand that, it would dawn on you that pointing your finger at a fellow American and shouting for the government to take more of what they EARNED is wrong.

however, you're not interested in right or wrong you just want someone to pay your way for you. The current president plays right into that disgusting point of view.

Robbie

Exactly.

People are screaming about jobs being "outsourced"

Here is the reason: http://money.cnn.com/2012/03/27/pf/t...axes/index.htm

We have the highest corporate taxes in the world. Just dumb. And for what? To feed the beast in Washington D.C. that runs through 10 billion dollar a day every day and borrows 4 billion of that a day every day????

The math tells me that it's the govt. that is COSTING us jobs. Not the other way around.

And I STILL can't figure out why liberal minded people are so damn PRO-Govt???
How did the liberal movement go from the hippies in the 1960's who were totally anti-govt. and turn into a bunch of people who LOVE the govt. and want to give it more of other people's money?

Bunch of traitors to their own cause. lol

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

TheSquealer

The comedy in corporate taxes is that people want higher corporate taxes and corporations are forced to increase the price of goods or services - so the lowest common denominator of society and the vocal minority, continually,.. in effect, beg to punish themselves.

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

Relentless

The literally 'misplaced' billions of dollars in cash intended for 'contractors' in Iraq according to published reports. They spent more than 1T in Iraq. That 1T could have been better spent. They don't call China and borrow money on per requisition basis... so the money was on hand in the sense that it had been borrowed already and misappropriated for a war of choice when it could have been properly spent averting a depression or not been borrowed at all.

Money spent on the Iraq war did virtually nothing for our economy. You really think Haliburton and Blackwater stimulate our economy? A lot of the money will never be taxed, will be 'lost' overseas and will do virtually zero to spur any benefit of our own economy at home. Huge multinational corporations are not paying the stated tax rate on their profits. Look at what the UK is not getting involved in with companies like Starbucks trying to claim their entire UK operation is revenue neutral when talking to the government while saying they make 15% profit on their presence there when talking to investors.
http://www.money.cnn.com/2012/12/03/...tax-avoidance/

The Iraq war was unnecessary, poorly timed, badly managed and a complete economic waste of resources. Worse than that it put American lives at risk and the people who orchestrated it for personal profit (aka former Haliburton CEO Cheney) should be hung for treason.

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Relentless

https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1059111

Go troll someone else Ronald. Your commentary has no value to me.

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BFT3K

epitome

Why wouldn't corporations be taxed? They are treated as people by the law. People pay taxes.

They have no problem asking for money and taking subsidies but God forbid they be taxed.

Minte

People that aren't in business expect to much. Companies make large investments in buildings,equipment and raw materials. We provide livings for employees,insurances and in most cases a safe and productive work enviroment. We do pay taxes on profits..

And all this for an ungrateful public that lines up for days in their Walmart tent with their Walmart supplies at an Apple store to buy products made in China.

Minte

I've already said it once in this thread to the other young man with a dumb mouth. Children should be seen and not heard. Go play with your X-box.

Robbie

1. The money could have been better "spent"??? How about not spent at all.
As for money being spent to avert a depression...that was done anyway. So the money for the war did NOT affect the economy collapsing (as you originally said), and it had no bearing on the banks getting bailed out. They did.
As for "the money will never be taxed" So fucking what? What does the gigantic federal govt., which gets more revenue now than at any time in history...taxing companies have to do with the economy?
Do you really think that taxing people more is going to fix the economy?

2. Yes, I do think that Haliburton and Blackwater employ U.S. citizens. You know...jobs. But I was referring to defense contractors who make bullets, and guns, and missiles. And all the money spent transporting troops, etc.
And yes, I agree the wars were the dumbest fucking thing EVER.
But it had nothing to do with the economy collapsing in 2008 and the recession of 2009.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

Relentless

I would much prefer the money had not been spent or borrowed at all. We agree on that. My point remains, the fact that we did borrow and spend 1T in Iraq made it much harder to deal with the collapse caused by the banking meltdown. I didn't say it caused the crash, I said it made dealing with the crash much harder... which in the long run is no better.

You tried to make the point that the money spent in Iraq somehow would help the economy. I disagree. The money spent in Iraq will have almost zero impact on our economy. Paying Raytheon to blow up Iraq and Haliburton to rebuild Iraq provides very little dollar for dollar benefit to our nation.

Again Robbie... I didn't say the war caused the collapse. I said the war made it much harder to deal with the collapse. NOT spending 1T dollars, countless man hours and a tremendous amount of our attention in Iraq would have made it much easier to deal with the banking meltdown here in the United States. Any benefit to Haliburton will be unnoticeable to our economy and the 1T spent in Iraq could have been much better spent or not spent at all...

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BFT3K

Robbie

I didn't say that you claimed it "caused" the collapse. I pointed out exactly what you said. And you're kinda saying it again.

Here is the truth:
The wars had been going on for 6 years when the housing market collapsed.
Had ZERO to do with what the Defense Dept. was paying attention to in Iraq or Afghanistan.
And bailing out the banks was done VERY quickly by Bush and then Obama. Didn't slow that down one bit.

I THINK what you are trying to say is that our national debt would not be as high. And that might have some effect on the economy in 2012 (businesses worried about the future, etc.)
But to say it had ANY effect on the housing collapse, subsequent bank collapse, and the successful almost instant bailing out of the banks...is not true in any way at all.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

epitome

Free market at work. Adapt or die. Don't bitch about it, do something about it.

(Target and Android are so much better)

I've never understood the "businesses provide this, businesses provide that" argument. Without employees there would be nothing to do to grow wealth. Employees are also customers. Money just keeps changing hands. Employees are just as valuable as the owner.

All anybody wants is everybody to pay their fair % based on the progressive tax system that has always existed in modern times and is part of what let this country become what it is (before you argue that, think highway system which promotes commerce). There is now blow back against that because certain people got a decade long temporary tax break that they do not want to let go of.

Income is income. There is no reason capital gains should be taxed less than other income. It is not double taxation because it is only taxation on new income.

There are all kinds of perfectly good tax advantages out there like 1031 exchanges that should never go away. People start having a problem when you have a Presidential candidate paying less than 10% on his income because he is exploiting his church with a tax loophole that Congress had to close.

_Richard_

how old are you? I left insulting people behind years ago, Minte,

I suggest you do the same.