Obama's 'Cliff' Proposal: $1.6 Trillion in Tax Increases - Page 14 - GoFuckYourself.com

woj · 01-02-2013, 08:31 AM

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Originally Posted by NewNick

You mean free health care and a dis-armed population ?

by "free" you mean paid by someone else?

philguy · 01-02-2013, 09:19 AM

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Originally Posted by 12clicks

My greatest comfort is knowing the trash that voted for Obama will one day get what they DESERVE instead of what they voted for.

Congratulations, my greatest comfort is knowing that trash like you finally HAVE to pay for the wars you wanted...those credit card bills have come due.

Too bad Clinton isn't still in office; you can't hitbot and shave your way out of this one skippy.

Relentless · 01-02-2013, 10:01 AM

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Originally Posted by Minte

I agree with that 100%. The other thing I notice about these posts. All of these guys that are so rabid about Obama have been in this industry for years..yet they look at someone making $250,000 a year as a BILLIONAIRE!

$250K in New York is pretty much middle class. $250K in Mississippi is a boat load of cash. One of the biggest failings of the whole discussion has been ignoring cost of living and treating all regions as if their income levels were equal from the start. Raising rates is silly by itself when so many people aren't paying the rates already stated (as we have agreed for that last 50 threads about tax reform). This 'deal' does not include a buffet rule, does nothing about carried interest, includes a 20% rate on dividends over 400K... it's pretty obvious what happened.

Obama, McConnell, Boehner and Pelosi did the bidding of billionaires at the expense of millionaires. That shouldn't surprise anyone in light of Citizens United with the last elections being bankrolled by only a handful of people. Now someone who makes 1M and actually produces something will be taxed a few points more, while someone making 100M on carried interest will continue to pay 13%. Trustfunders who dump money into tax free investments will continue to pay 0, etc.... It's a shameful outcome, but not one that was hard to predict.

I'm particularly amused by the way they are selling Cantor as some kind of independent voice and Boehner as 'powerful enough even to keep Cantor in line.' It's comical to watch the 6 or 7 people who jointly made this decision more than a month ago all acting now as if they are adversaries.

Barry-xlovecam · 01-02-2013, 10:20 AM

Pretty much what I expected to happen but just a bit quicker but we get the "fiscal cliff reloaded" as they kicked a lot of the issues two months down the road.

Minte · 01-02-2013, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relentless

$250K in New York is pretty much middle class. $250K in Mississippi is a boat load of cash. One of the biggest failings of the whole discussion has been ignoring cost of living and treating all regions as if their income levels were equal from the start. Raising rates is silly by itself when so many people aren't paying the rates already stated (as we have agreed for that last 50 threads about tax reform). This 'deal' does not include a buffet rule, does nothing about carried interest, includes a 20% rate on dividends over 400K... it's pretty obvious what happened.

Obama, McConnell, Boehner and Pelosi did the bidding of billionaires at the expense of millionaires. That shouldn't surprise anyone in light of Citizens United with the last elections being bankrolled by only a handful of people. Now someone who makes 1M and actually produces something will be taxed a few points more, while someone making 100M on carried interest will continue to pay 13%. Trustfunders who dump money into tax free investments will continue to pay 0, etc.... It's a shameful outcome, but not one that was hard to predict.

I'm particularly amused by the way they are selling Cantor as some kind of independent voice and Boehner as 'powerful enough even to keep Cantor in line.' It's comical to watch the 6 or 7 people who jointly made this decision more than a month ago all acting now as if they are adversaries.

I don't know that I agree with you on the timeframe. Whether it was *little theater* or not is only the sidebar anyhow.

What they passed was absolutely shameful. The deficit reduction will barely keep the country going for 36 hours. I am going to be paying more tax now, What I did this morning was give myself a 6% raise. Then at the end of this month, we will have a small across the board price hike on everything we make. At the end of the day, it's still the middle class that will pay more.

I was listening to the news last night and the economists are clearly concerned about another drop in the bond rating. I don't know enough about it to even understand the ramifications. But if it's anything like my company's D&B rating, if we drop even a little it's more difficult to buy,sell and borrow money.

12clicks · 01-02-2013, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philguy

Congratulations, my greatest comfort is knowing that trash like you finally HAVE to pay for the wars you wanted...those credit card bills have come due.

Too bad Clinton isn't still in office; you can't hitbot and shave your way out of this one skippy.

Still living with mommy, surfer?
I'll bet she gets a free ride too.

Relentless · 01-02-2013, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

I don't know that I agree with you on the timeframe. Whether it was *little theater* or not is only the sidebar anyhow. What they passed was absolutely shameful. The deficit reduction will barely keep the country going for 36 hours. I am going to be paying more tax now, What I did this morning was give myself a 6% raise. Then at the end of this month, we will have a small across the board price hike on everything we make. At the end of the day, it's still the middle class that will pay more. I was listening to the news last night and the economists are clearly concerned about another drop in the bond rating. I don't know enough about it to even understand the ramifications. But if it's anything like my company's D&B rating, if we drop even a little it's more difficult to buy,sell and borrow money.

Years ago I used to deal with D&B quite a bit. Companies routinely stalled on sending them the data needed to keep their rating current... to the point where I have seen companies stall off an entire bad year and then send the better year following to maintain higher ratings. I don't know if they have tightened much in the last several years but back in the day it was very easy to work around it. The bond rating of the US is even easier to work around. Nobody seriously thinks the US will default on its debts... at least not yet.

You still seem to think your situation is 'typical' of the people in the 1% but unfortunately it isn't. Anyone making their money on carried interest and dividends by pushing paper rather than building equity and actually producing something had their taxes unaffected entirely by this 'deal' whether they make 400K per year or 400M per year. The guy who makes 410K won't be hit hard, his taxes are the same on all but the last 10K he earns. This is the billionaires and post-nationalists continuing to piss on the millionaires and people who actually do create jobs in this country while blaming poor people for voting either way when both 'sides' are owned by the exact same oligarchs.

Minte · 01-02-2013, 01:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Relentless

Years ago I used to deal with D&B quite a bit. Companies routinely stalled on sending them the data needed to keep their rating current... to the point where I have seen companies stall off an entire bad year and then send the better year following to maintain higher ratings. I don't know if they have tightened much in the last several years but back in the day it was very easy to work around it. The bond rating of the US is even easier to work around. Nobody seriously thinks the US will default on its debts... at least not yet.

You still seem to think your situation is 'typical' of the people in the 1% but unfortunately it isn't. Anyone making their money on carried interest and dividends by pushing paper rather than building equity and actually producing something had their taxes unaffected entirely by this 'deal' whether they make 400K per year or 400M per year. The guy who makes 410K won't be hit hard, his taxes are the same on all but the last 10K he earns. This is the billionaires and post-nationalists continuing to piss on the millionaires and people who actually do create jobs in this country while blaming poor people for voting either way when both 'sides' are owned by the exact same oligarchs.

I don't think it's typical because I am a long way from being a billionaire.

I think it's typical for the vast majority of companies that will be affected. I don't think there are many people in business that won't cover the increase by simply raising prices. That's just how it's done. Whether materials or labor go up we still have to raise the prices. If you have business loans every bank I have ever worked with will only service loans that meet a minimum level of profitability. We do what we need to do.

Relentless · 01-02-2013, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

I don't think it's typical because I am a long way from being a billionaire. I think it's typical for the vast majority of companies that will be affected. I don't think there are many people in business that won't cover the increase by simply raising prices. That's just how it's done. Whether materials or labor go up we still have to raise the prices. If you have business loans every bank I have ever worked with will only service loans that meet a minimum level of profitability. We do what we need to do.

Exactly. The people causing it are the ones who create nothing, produce nothing, pay little or nothing and have allegiance to nobody. Until there is some kind of Buffet rule and international agreement on how to handle post-nationalist issues they will keep raping municipalities, countries and 'ordinary' citizens. The fact that you are passing on your costs to others doesn't change who benefits from them. You aren't earning more as a result, nor are your workers, nor is the government. It's just a new way to subsidize trust-funders, billionaires, international banks and paper pushers (aka the people funding our elections).

Changing the tax rates up or down only makes sense when everyone is actually paying the stated rates.

Robbie · 01-02-2013, 03:56 PM

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Originally Posted by Relentless

Exactly. The people causing it are the ones who create nothing, produce nothing, pay little or nothing and have allegiance to nobody.

Okay...let me get this 100% straight...people who invest in the market for their primary income do NOTHING for the economy?

So the companies that they invest in do not produce anything or hire people?

There once was a time in history when only the elite could invest in the stock market. But now, in 2012...tens of millions of "average" people are invested and can do so via sites like E-Trade right over the internet.

It's a great way for ordinary people to invest...of course if you start taxing the hell out of it, it won't be so attractive.

Also...millions of people invest every week in their 401K plans (with the amount matched dollar for dollar by their employers). Where do you think that money is invested? And how can you justify raising taxes on that when they retire and start getting their money?

And as Minte already said...once you raise taxes, it will be passed on to the consumer. One way or another. If these "greedy" "rich" people who "produce nothing" (well, except for the fact that they MONETIZE the companies that DO produce and hire) suddenly start getting the hell taxed out of their investments...they will look for something else to do with their money.
Companies will have less revenue because fewer people overall will be investing in the stock market (financial planners will turn people's 401K plans elsewhere looking for tax breaks) and that will mean: less jobs and higher prices.

Remember..that money that those "greedy" people are investing is making returns for them via companies turning a profit and the stock price going up. Which in turn means "good".

Giving that money to the damn federal govt. is a HUGE mistake. They already take in too much and spend twice what they get.

Relentless · 01-02-2013, 07:35 PM

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Originally Posted by Robbie

Okay...let me get this 100% straight...people who invest in the market for their primary income do NOTHING for the economy? So the companies that they invest in do not produce anything or hire people? There once was a time in history when only the elite could invest in the stock market. But now, in 2012...tens of millions of "average" people are invested and can do so via sites like E-Trade right over the internet. It's a great way for ordinary people to invest...of course if you start taxing the hell out of it, it won't be so attractive.

Stock markets have been taken over by momentum traders and an insular community of after hours traders. It's little more than an online casino at this point. Even if you re under the assumption that the market is still what it was a hundred years ago, there is zero reason that if I earn 100K working to produce something and you earn 100K shuffling paper our incomes should be taxed at different rates. Profit from investment is income, no different from profit from work... The only difference is in the minds of the lobbyists.

Quote:

Also...millions of people invest every week in their 401K plans (with the amount matched dollar for dollar by their employers). Where do you think that money is invested? And how can you justify raising taxes on that when they retire and start getting their money?

Tax on the profit is not tax on the principle.

Quote:

And as Minte already said...once you raise taxes, it will be passed on to the consumer. One way or another. If these "greedy" "rich" people who "produce nothing" (well, except for the fact that they MONETIZE the companies that DO produce and hire) suddenly start getting the hell taxed out of their investments...they will look for something else to do with their money.
Companies will have less revenue because fewer people overall will be investing in the stock market (financial planners will turn people's 401K plans elsewhere looking for tax breaks) and that will mean: less jobs and higher prices. Remember..that money that those "greedy" people are investing is making returns for them via companies turning a profit and the stock price going up. Which in turn means "good". Giving that money to the damn federal govt. is a HUGE mistake. They already take in too much and spend twice what they get.

Goldman Sachs and its executives aren't paying the stated rates. They aren't paying the 20% dividends rate either. The country is being robbed.....

Robbie · 01-02-2013, 08:43 PM

You're missing my point completely...}

I don't give a damn if some people make a lot of money. That's their business.

I don't see any reason why they should give their money to the Federal govt. (other than simple class warfare/envy). The U.S. Govt. will spend it all with their corrupt cronies and also use it to kill more people worldwide.
Fuck that...

And all the hell you are raising about a few guys who are incredibly successful doesn't change the fact at all that MILLIONS of Americans are invested in the stock market. You can call it a "casino" all day long...but I live in Vegas. And trust me, the casino will take your money quick! lol

You're talking about taxing people...for no reason except the federal govt. can't control itself with spending wildly. And even if they do raise capital gain taxes (and DESTROY retired people's income and working people's retirement plans)...it still won't even be a tiny blip on the radar of what the govt. spends.

I posted this info a while back...but I'll do it again.
If the U.S. govt. took everyone's money 100% above $250,000. I mean ALL of it.

It would only run the govt. for about a month.

That's how much they spend.

Sorry man, but there just aren't enough "evil" millionaires and billionaires to tax enough to get us out of this mess.

The govt. spends 10.6 BILLION dollars a day.

Mitt Romney's net worth is something like $129 million dollars.
The govt. would spend his entire net worth in about 30 minutes.

Warren Buffet is worth $62 billion dollars. The federal govt. would spend his entire net worth in less than 7 days.

This isn't the fault of the American people. And taking more of their money isn't going to fix anything.

Robbie · 01-02-2013, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relentless

The country is being robbed.....

Yes it is.

And the crooks who are robbing it are the lifetime politicians and bureaucrats in Washington D.C.

You're pointing the finger at the wrong people.

Relentless · 01-03-2013, 07:59 AM

There are two ways to run the country with the services we need at a fair cost:

1) cut costs and create greater efficiency

2) make sure everyone is contributing fairly

Right now we do neither. We ought to be doing both.

01-02-2013, 08:43 PM	#662
Robbie Leaner, Meaner, Faster Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vegas Posts: 20,959	You're missing my point completely...} I don't give a damn if some people make a lot of money. That's their business. I don't see any reason why they should give their money to the Federal govt. (other than simple class warfare/envy). The U.S. Govt. will spend it all with their corrupt cronies and also use it to kill more people worldwide. Fuck that... And all the hell you are raising about a few guys who are incredibly successful doesn't change the fact at all that MILLIONS of Americans are invested in the stock market. You can call it a "casino" all day long...but I live in Vegas. And trust me, the casino will take your money quick! lol You're talking about taxing people...for no reason except the federal govt. can't control itself with spending wildly. And even if they do raise capital gain taxes (and DESTROY retired people's income and working people's retirement plans)...it still won't even be a tiny blip on the radar of what the govt. spends. I posted this info a while back...but I'll do it again. If the U.S. govt. took everyone's money 100% above $250,000. I mean ALL of it. It would only run the govt. for about a month. That's how much they spend. Sorry man, but there just aren't enough "evil" millionaires and billionaires to tax enough to get us out of this mess. The govt. spends 10.6 BILLION dollars a day. Mitt Romney's net worth is something like $129 million dollars. The govt. would spend his entire net worth in about 30 minutes. Warren Buffet is worth $62 billion dollars. The federal govt. would spend his entire net worth in less than 7 days. This isn't the fault of the American people. And taking more of their money isn't going to fix anything. __________________ -Robbie ClaudiaMarie.Com

01-03-2013, 07:59 AM	#664
Relentless www.EngineFood.com Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,697	There are two ways to run the country with the services we need at a fair cost: 1) cut costs and create greater efficiency 2) make sure everyone is contributing fairly Right now we do neither. We ought to be doing both. __________________ Website Secure \| Engine Food ICQ# 266-942-896

01-02-2013, 10:20 AM	#654
Barry-xlovecam It's 42 Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Global Posts: 18,083	Pretty much what I expected to happen but just a bit quicker but we get the "fiscal cliff reloaded" as they kicked a lot of the issues two months down the road.