mineistaken

European Parliament approves visa-free travel for Ukrainians | News | DW.COM | 06.04.2017

So, nico-t, Dutch referendum was pointless after all?

Barry-xlovecam

So, you will welcome the Ukrainians because they are white Christians?

k0nr4d

Heh, this is the whole point of the EU. It's to steal skilled workers from poorer countries.

Poland, Romania, Czech, Hungary etc, were all accepted into the EU so that Western countries could brain-drain them. Tons of doctors, it specialists, engineers etc left for uk, germany and so forth. We have huge shortages of doctors now and good luck finding a coder to hire here (it takes me months to hire someone + I'm now paying salaries 300% higher then 5 years ago to staff). The tap is starting to run dry in these countries so they need fresh meat - Ukraine.

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Paul Markham

Not just Brain-Drain, they also wanted the cheap manual workers.

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Paul Markham

More proof that the EU is determined to make its own citizens poorer to make the rich richer.

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k0nr4d

True - We have *ALOT* here now. My city has 900k people, and 200k Ukrainians. They all came here in the last 2-3 years. Most of them are doing manual labor jobs, working cash registers, hair stylists etc. Petty jobs mostly. It's getting to the point where you don't even hear Polish walking through a mall anymore.

I think a large percentage will stay here and not go further west too due to language barriers. Ukrainian and polish are mutually intelligible and within 3-4 months they can speak polish communicatively.

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just a punk

I don't think so. E.g. how long Sid70 did stay in Poland? The same will happen to the most of other Ukrainians too. They all will go to the UK, Italy, Spain, Germany, France, Switzerland etc. The language border is nothing when you can live for welfare and do nothing. Don't forget that Ukraine is a very poor country: civilian war, heroin addiction, AIDS epidemic, no jobs, no money, no future. The 45 millions of Ukrainians are desperately need a way to run off the country and they consider the EU as the best landing site. Once again, look at Sid70, because he is a typical example of the Ukrainian who had a chance to cross the EU border.

The Ukrainian prostitute Maria awaits for clients - a winner of World Press Photo 2012:



Hope they all will find their dream in Western Europe

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klinton

and prices of rent in a country and city that already has shortage of apartments per 1000 people (Poland is one of the worst countries in Europe when it goes to rent market), went like 30 % up thanks to Ukrainian immigration :1o rglaugh

klinton

how is Sid70 typical at all ?
How he claims any benefits at all ?
He is just IT freelancer and he uses country where he lives to spend money, not to get money...
Better to spend money in Italy or Spain than Poland IMO. much more pleasant

just a punk

Ask him. He mentioned here at GFY that he does receive welfare in Italy. Poland has paid him nothing so he said that Poland is a shithole and moved to the West (the GFY post history remembers it all ;))

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Sarn

zionism not approve it?

Barry-xlovecam

Europe's welcome wagon -- next war you have we may just sit it out

k0nr4d

LOL Worst country in europe for rent? there are TONS of empty flats here waiting to be rented. You would have no problem finding a flat here, you could rent 20 in one day if you wanted. If you want bad - look towards Germany. I know people that moved to germany, and even before the whole migrant thing for every flat in big cities there is 100 people that want to rent it.

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k0nr4d

Sid70 from what I recall (at least at the time he was immigrating) was having some bureaucracy issues here and the method underwhich he was immigrating was costing him alot of money. He also knows english, while a majority of these immigrants do not. Also UA is far from a third world country ravaged by heroin and aids. Just like in any country, bigger cities are entirely civilized. Odessa, Kiev, Lviv, etc are all normal european cities. If you compare some Borat-esque village in the middle of nowhere to Munich, then yes it will seem like a shithole.

People also often group Poland as Eastern Europe, but the bigger cities (at least on the western side of the country) look exactly like bigger cities in Germany. Clean, modern, old buildings nicely renovated - but we also have shitty villages that look like rural siberia.

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Paul Markham

Thias is to keep wages down and profits high. Also the EU is all about sucking money out of the richer countries to give to the poorer ones. When the UK leaves the burden will fall heavier the few who can afford to give.

RThey could learn Czech then that's similar to Polish. Hope the benefits system here keeps them out.

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Paul Markham

Why do they have access to other people's money when they're not in the EU?

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Paul Markham

Don't move to the UK then. Decades of mass migration has made owning a house a dream for most people who don't already own. House prices and rents have trippled.

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spads

You can judge how developed a country is by looking at the villages. In Switzerland even the villagers live well, drive decent cars, have nice looking houses, etc. Meanwhile in Ukraine and Russia the cities look modern and the villages have a living standard that looks 20-30 years behind.

Paul Markham

Europe is moving steadily to the Right thanks to the morons in the EU.

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just a punk

I'm talking about refugees like Sid70. And you know it's not correct to ask me about that. Ask your own EU government why it pays welfare to the immigrants from around the World.

That's because Russian and Ukrainian villages are literally dead. There is no job, no money and no perspectives. Only old people and alcoholics live there. Everyone else has moved to big cities already. Just FYI: about 20% of all Russian population lives in Moscow + Spb only (don't even mention other large cities). A typical Russian or Ukrainian village looks like a desert from the Mad Max movie.

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spads

Yeah villages in developing countries often look like something out of mad max. That drives people to the larger cities. In places like the US, Canada, Norway there's no need to move to the larger cities unless you want to pursue certain careers that require being in a larger city.

Sarn

Migrants from ME and Africa it is better for EU Enriched culture

k0nr4d

Same situation in Poland. The villages that are close to cities are ok - I even live in one, but ones that are 30-40km away from any major city are terrible. Alcoholism and unemployment are rampant and i'm in no way surprised by that because there's simply nothing else to do but drink. I think you are exaggerating the mad max thing but I think we can settle on "Borat's Village", no?

This is actually one big reason why people hate polish immigrants in the uk/germany/etc. They got alot of doctors/programmers/etc but the bulk that they got was these useless alcoholic peasants with no skills.

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k0nr4d

The EU to me is about brain draining the poorer countries for their own gain...

Czech (verbally) isn't very similar to Polish. There's a few words, but the words sound very different - if I had to approximate it, Czech to me sounds like an American trying to speak Polish - it's missing a lot of the weird sounds Polish has. Written CZ is a different story, I can read most of it.

Polish is closest to Slovakian and Ukrainian. CZ is different enough that I usually have to use English there, whereas in SK I can use Polish (including in more complicated situations where I had to stop at a car dealership to explain that I need to buy a very specific type of motor oil).

Edit: Just remembered another reason why CZ is so hard for me.
Polish: "szukam was na zachodzie" = "I am looking for you in the west"
Czech: "šukám vás na záchodě" = "I'll fuck you in the toilet"

Both are pronounced the same. You can see how this could lead to misunderstandings

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klinton

I forgot to add - in normal prices. I know that I wont have problems with finding one bedroom/ studio flat 30-35 m2 in decent standard for 500-600 euros there, yet it would be more than renting something in , lets say, Valencia or Malaga in Spain. or almost the same like in Barcelona.
no point to rent anything in Wroclaw then....
I remember puting some advert last October just to check market for a ROOM for 1100-1200 pln with bills, I got flooded with like 50 calls and messages...its a joke :-)
Poland has one of the lowest ratios flats/ per 1000 habitants in whole Europe, and renters market is even worse. I doubt that so much changed since last time I was there

klinton

well said

klinton

czech does sound like a parody of polish

k0nr4d

I live 5km from Wrocław and our office is there, and I agree it's more expensive here then for instance lublin but it also all depends on what part of the city. A friend rents a 1 bedroom+living room in a new building, about 55m2 for 1500pln all-in in the southern end (Krzyki) but there are flats for 800zł even if you don't mind hordes of gypsies running around outside

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klinton

man...I lived there for like 7 years, last time in 2015....
"southern krzyki" ? where ? Oltaszyn ?
flats for 800 pln ? where ? Olbin ? add to that 800 for bills and community fee (including electric heating in the winter )..and you will pay almost 400 euros for some shithole like you said with fungus on the wall and drunks screaming all night.

just check out ads on Polish sites and on spanish sites...also check stats on apartments in EU and Europe...and how many of them (apartments) are in Poland per 1000 people and how many % of them are overcrowded...
I am far from complaining on the country where I was born, but this is actually something that has the reasons to complain about.
Living in outskirts of Wro/ Dlugoleka/ whatever is not the same like living in , lets say Downtown. so yeah, the flats will be cheaper there.
I remember dramatic spikes in prices of rent just 2 times: 2006-2007 and later 2014-2016 where hords of Ukrainians came :-) btw. I doubt that there are like 200 k Ukrainians there...rather 100-150k in Wro...basically you may say that Wroclaw is going back to its roots as many people there have Ukrainian/ Kresy roots

k0nr4d

Well the places my friend rents is new buildings on ul. Zwycięska so near Bielany Wrocławskie. I live in Tyniec Maly so one village further out then Bielany. So you are saying I can rent nicer flat in Spain for 600euros then I can in Wrocław? Are you comparing small cities in Spain to big cities in Poland? A quick look on otodom and I can see you can get one of those "zemsta komuny" flats for 1100-1200pln

I don't know exactly how many ukranians, I've heard 200k many times and there really is TONS AND TONS.

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klinton

EXACTLY. Exceptions to the rule: center of Madrid, center of Barcelona, maybe also Santander would be **little ** more expensive.
I'm comparing normally - cities to cities, small cities to small cities and towns to towns.
Even in some shithole towns in Poland its difficult to find something decent for less than 300 euros WITH BILLS. Been there, done that, spent/ wasted last summer to find something decent in Mazury
As you know that very well, even if some flat costs to rent in Poland, lets say 250 euros, you get additional 150 euros more for community fee (~100 euros) and bills.
Spain is of course kind of extreme, as while in Poland you have not enough flats, in Spain you have too much flats (as many have there like 1 normal home, and 2nd for holidays that stays empty for like 9 months year)...But still....
But you have also Germany, Berlin...check out flats there and check out in Wroclaw...similar prices.... also, check out where the flats are cheaper and its more of them ? west of Poland near germany or east germany near Poland....
renter's market is a joke in Poland, thats it.

klinton

yeah I know there are tons of them :-)
they drived prices up of the apartments to rent so much (I'm not talking about those high end apartments as they usually dont rent it) in last 2 years and they also buy some flats too.

Paul Markham

They do it to attract more low paid workers to hold down wages. In the UK benefits spending is the only thing keeping some people from starving. The problem is it's bankrupting the country. They deny migration isn't affecting wages because they ignore the people thrown out of a job because a low-skilled migrant will work for slightly less.



Wait until the migrants decide to stay and go onto UK Pensions. The idea that they will return home is a lie, they're having children who know no other place.



Already that expenditure includes all the migrants from the West Indies, Asians from Africa, Cypriots and India, Pakistan, Bangladesh.





All the graphs prove most migrants end up being poor, the lie that they contribute is now being quoted a lot less. Because there are so few jobs available for them that allows them to live free of benefits.

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Paul Markham

If the UK asked the British in a referendum if they wanted to control migration on a points-based system similar to Australia. The overwhelming answer would be YES.

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Paul Markham

They could do that with controlled migration.

It's all about looking PC and enriching the rich. The benefits bill in the UK has to be similar across Europe for countries with similar numbers of low skilled migrants.

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CrazyMartin

its probably far away from centre or you friend is very lucky
ohh i missed your additional information, you have right, you cant go walking to centre from there, too far

i have 37m2 flat, i mean not strictly centre, but 10min for centre walking, just near Ibis Hotel
hired it for 1400 + additional costs = 1900
and its not even new building

i got even more for this few years ago

i dont live in Wroclaw anymore, too loud, too much Ukrainians, too expensive, to much traffic jams. I just have flat there and visit this city sometimes to time
the most annoying thing is Ukrainians and no parking places, too much cars, and maybe social stratification, i mean many very poor people and of course very rich too
thanks to very expensive property costs and low salaries,( thanks to Ukrainians too)

Strange thing, Wroclaw is old German town, and most Poles here are
descendants of displaced Poles that lived in current East Ukraine before II War
Ukrainians mass killed Poles there

My grandpa live near Lviv which is ukrainian city right now (was polish), and thats why he displaced to Wroclaw after WWII
Now this city is full of Ukrainians


I hope they will go to Germany and other countries after no visas

spads

The high property prices in Eastern European cities is mostly driven by two factors, neither of which has anything to do with earning potential. The first is the fact that no one in their right mind wants to live in the smaller cities and villages. The second is these countries often have a lot of bureaucracy/red tape/corruption around building new apartment complexes to accommodate the population growth leading to an artificial shortage. There's also the massive housing bubble that's happening across Europe with artificially low interest rates, but that's happening in western Europe as well. I wouldn't be looking at buying property in any European city right now unless it's an absolute steal or you can afford to wait out the correction that's around the corner.