Revshare DEBUNKED - One Time Only For The Sheep!
 

I am so sick of this constant crap from revshare programs screaming how they make people more money... so this evening.. and only right now, as a successful PPS program owner I will give you the no bullshit explanation why you will make more with a PPS program than a RevShare program in the long run.

And we begin.. revshare 101.

The bottom line here...Revshare programs like PPS programs are in business to turn a profit. As much as possible. They would likely be unhappy with a 2% return. If they were losing money they would lower the %. If they were completely losing money they would go out of business. PROFIT IS THE BOTTOM LINE.

So given the above FACT I see only one logical conclusion to the statement "you'll make more with revshare than with PPS, so promote our revshare program".

The logical conclusion is one of three choices:

either
A) The revshare program can't afford to pay per signup and they are hoping to spin things in their favor. There is no shame in this. There is a huge upfront investment in PPS. If a small revshare program can't afford to PPS then kudos to them for starting with revshare. It's better than not starting. We started with revshare + pay per active. It was a good starting point for us SEVEN years ago.

or

B) The revshare program can absolutely afford to pay per signup, but THEY make a ton more money by convincing sheep to take all the risk.

or

C) They actually make less money. If they say you make more with their revshare program vs pps then that means they are making less with revshare vs pps. There is only a dollar here to be divided up so many ways.

My response to those 3 options?

A - Respectable as long as the are honest.

B - You're being schooled. Go back to wendy's.

C - Pretty fucking unlikely. They simply wouldn't make a choice to earn less. They aren't your momma. They don't love you. They don't have high hopes for your future as a doctor. They are in business to earn a profit. Refer back to the universal fact that we are all here to make a profit.


So why do I care? Because we bust our ass to afford to run a PPS program and remain competetive. We spend nights figuring out how to squeeze an additional 2 dollars out of the average user. Revshare sponsors just don't have that motivation cause they aren't "hungry".. their margins dont matter. Why? Because their margins are FIXED! 60/40, 50/50, 70/30.. their profit is GUARANTEED whether they retain for 1 day or 10 years.

But without a doubt my newbie revshare sheep flocking friends.... the TWO best reasons why the sharks and the richest in this business choose PPS?

2) Your spreadsheets arent full of question marks if you promote revshare. Your earnings per sale are predicable which allows you to take this 6 dimensional revshare calculation and turn it into a simple "my counted clicks and my earned per sale". Sure.. occasional members on revshare will earn you 80 bucks.. but the more common member will earn you 2 or 3 bucks.

and the number one reason for choosing pay per signup?

1) IBILL - DMR - INSITE ADULT - BUSTY AMATEURS - ENRON! The biggest companies in the world go under and they will never tell you if they are about to die... rules change... visa regs change... 3rd party processors go under.. paysite owners find religion... paysite owners get funds frozen by the FTC... merchant accounts get lost... Every revshare program owner will try to convince you of 50 reasons why they are the special chosen one.. why they are the only trustworthy program, why they will never fail and why their rebills will be paid on like clockwork... but...

There are 99 ways you can lose EVERY DIME owed to you by a revshare program... there is only ONE way that you can get paid!

And that my friends.. is why the smart money.. the gambler who knows the odds puts their hard earned traffic into PPS.




With that said... I'll guarantee in writing that you will earn more with quickbuck than with any other sponsor. How? cause I optimize every click and join beyond that which most sponsors have ever considered possible!

damn the 3 minute edit rule... point 2 should have said "Your spreadsheets ARE full of question marks if you promote revshare"

Totally agreed. My best rev-share sponsor still doesn't hit the $30 per trial mark, and thats a regular $5 trial. Rev-share is much more risky for the affiliate, safer for the program owner. PPS is the opposite.

There we have a good reason to use PPS.

not many PPS programs who arent relying on cross sales these days

PPS is always the way I go unless it's a solo girl and she's worth it in my eye. But i'll always be a pps guy and I believe i will always make more in the long run. Nice to see when you break out with a biz thread like this.

Great thread, and hell yeah, I love PPS. Let a program take the risk and try to squeeze every penny out of the surfer, its not something I want to do anyways.
WG

Haha, someone with a clue, ban him, he doesn't belong here.

What does that tell you about the actual long term value of a member?

This isn't 1998.. surfers are trained, banks encourage chargebacks, regulations are stiffer... do you think revshare programs know some secret that the people processing HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS on PPS programs don't know?

Tinfoil Hats off to them if they do but i've checked and they sell the same shit everybody else does.. pics and videos of fucking.. some update more frequently, some have exclusive content... that absolutely does not affect retention as much as revshare sponsors will claim it will.

tells me people dont value long time surfers..lol..one month of recurring with cross sales=profit for pps company

btw,i've been on both sides of the game so I understand the logic and methods of profit managing for both models.Enjoy your evening GFY,im out for a night on the town :)

value them in what way? sending a hooker to their home? giving them free porn? I see pps as being the only actual way to place a "value" on them.

If a revshare program would commit to giving me a "value" per member then i'd no longer call them a revshare program :) Revshare programs as a general rule have NO idea how much their members are worth and are absolutely by definition refusing to define the value of a surfer. Ask a revshare sponsor how much a surfer is worth and their answer will be "50% for life!"... lol it's like listening to a MLM scheme :)

JMHO, but the only people who whine about "caring for the surfer" or "the long term value" are people who run revshare programs.

cheeeuuh

This will be a long thread....

:glugglug

If the revshare theory sucked then PPS would also.

PPS programs rely on rebills to make a profit.

So if an affiliate can afford to wait a little longer for his money, revshare will generate more $ for him. If it didn't then PPS business model wouldn't work and they would be broke. They know how much each member is worth to them on average. You think they are going to pay you more than that?

Remember:
Content is King! & Revshare is Better!
:thumbsup

i guess i've gotta be the one that goes against the grain & says i disagree with your theory that PPS makes more. You left out one important factor & that's the quality of the site.

Sure you'll make more if you're promoting shitty sites with shitty content. But if the you pick & choose the sites you promote wisely, you'll make way more with revshare.

There are quality niche sites out there that that cater to a very specific crowd that will recurr for YEARS. Blacks On Blondes for instance. There are PPS sites out there that I only WISH offered revshare.

Exactly :thumbsup

That would mean they are losing money (or leaving it on the table); That is what his point is.

If the rebill is worth 9 months of rebilling, they pay $30 out up front and keep the rest. Otherwise they are rather philanthropic; I am pretty sure most businesses are not this way.....

i'm sorry man.. but you prove my point. only revshare sponsors say revshare is better. and shock.. gasp... you run (or promote) a revshare program.

Even if an affiliate might potentially earn 10% more over the course of 1 year (not to mention that they might actually be smart enough to take that up front money and reinvest it into new traffic to further make more money) that still has absolutely no relevance to the #1 reason not to promote revshare.. there is absolutely no way that I know you'll be around in 2 years.

I live Revshare...sorry.

I can't understand what you are saying here. :helpme are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?

You are missing the point. Even if you are on pace to average $50 per surfer after 6 years what happenes when they close in 3? How many programs did you push beforehand with revshare that you only made $10 or $15 per customer on? Etc Etc.

You own a program. You rentention is "amazing" according to your marketing rhetoric. Most webmasters seem to prefer PPS.

What incentive do you have to offer revshare? Wouldn't you do better offering PPS?

Do you really honestly think that somebody is earning $150 per join but only paying you $30?

Yes. Retention is a *tiny* bit better on exclusive niched sites with frequent updates.. but it is not THAT much better.. it is not the difference between a surfer value of $25 and $50.. it's the difference between a value of $25 and $26...

In fact I'll give everybody here a clue.. some of the best retaining sites on the planet have the shittiest most nonexistant content! :D

If i'm wrong then let a ccbill rep or paycom rep show us some stats :)

I'm the first to admit that i'm an opportunist and a profiteer.. Look at my program name.. QUICK BUCK.. I'm here as long as there is money in this business!

If revshare could make me more in the next 2 years don't you think i'd be on the other end of the argument? It would be to MY advantage if EVERYBODY went revshare.... i have TONS of custom exclusive content.. and enough money to outspend most revshare programs on new content purchases..

We have many years worth of numbers to back this up.. i'm not just some newbie making up facts here.

Lol. You always makes for interesting debacles. :1orglaugh

Like most things this isn't a black and white issue, there's alot of gray area.
For the most part PPS is a higher payout per signup, but not always.

The problem with most revshare programs is that the cost of entry is very low, and any idiot with photoshop and a content CD can start a ccbill affiliate program.
If you send traffic to those people you might as well just wipe your ass with $100 bills.

However if you promote the "right" revshare program you can make a killing. Also, having a large recurring database really helps you sleep at night during weeks and months when sales go to shit, and we all know that happens.
If my sales drop 20-40% next month I don't have to worry about how I'm going to pay the mortgage, because we know we still have rebills coming in.

Good points Hooper. I'm too exhausted to reply with all the points that others will bring up anyway so I'm gonna go to bed...

You are right with some revshare programs though. Not all sites, content, support, and navigation are the same. Some are going to hold surfers for a good long term run, and some are not. When choosing a revshare program, doing your homework is key. Where WILL they be 2 years from now?

I choose PPS 9 times out of 10 when loading the tgps up. Because they will probably make more money. It really shouldn't be that way but in most cases, it is.

lenny2...

*cough*ibill*cough*

nobody who promoted their revshare programs sleeps well even though they may still be rebilling :(

some revshare are crooks
some PPS are crooks.

personally I think you're all crooks - thus I do and only do pre-paid :thumbsup

evens the playing field for both revshare and PPS

i always enjoy a lively debate rrred. karups seems like a decent program.

i dont know much about them except that they wont do business with me though :)

Yeah I hear you.
However I think the odds of getting stiffed by a PPS program, or having them go under is ALOT more likely than an IPSP going under.

Either way you're taking a risk. If paycom pulled an ibill I'd be royally fucked, but then so would most PPS program owners.

I agree. But that damn banner gives me a fucking headache.

Haha well I'll see what I can find out on that. Thanks for reminding me. I was slammed all week with rev share lovers :thumbsup

Here are some numbers for you to chew on Hooper.

Last year we made $32.69 per signup with a revshare program. This is on 1.95 trials also, not a no trial program.

So far this year we're making over $34 per signup with the same program.
This is also all traffic sent to console free tours, which you pay $25 per signup on. (To be fair with our volume you'd pay us at least $30 per, but that's still less than what we're making)

If I stopped sending traffic today I'd still be getting checks from them for at least the next 6 months. When you stop sending to a PPS program the money stops coming in immediately.

Also you and I both know that most PPS programs aren't bringing in enough $$ per member to make a $35 payout so they shave to make up the difference. I think one of the main reasons alot of webmasters only want to promote ccbill programs and things like that is because they know the program owner can't shave them.
While at the end of the day the $$ you put in the bank is all that matters, the shaving thing is a big psychological factor when people decide where to send their traffic.

great post. but i think an absolute value can be placed on a revshare join. you just need to determine the average rebill length for a given sponsor with your traffic. if you're only sending a few joins per period, you won't be able to determine this. but a whale sending xxx per period should be able to determine accurately the average rebill length per join after say 6 months, and with that you can determine an absolute price per join. as you send more joins, and the months go by a more precise value per join will emerge for you. after a coulpe years you should have an exact value per revshare join you send. this is assuming the various variables affecting rebills stay at a constant the entire time.

but who wants to send traffic for years on end to determine how much their joins are reallly worth? stick with a good PPS sponsor. :)

In the long run revshare is much better for the affiliate if the sites in the program generate solid rebills :2 cents:

We choose to have our affiliates be paid directly by CCBill & Epoch. (3rd party) This has many advantages. Especially with the CCBill merge option.

I might do better with offering PPS but I choose not to because of the extra risks involved as well as all the other things I would have to do with consoles and cross sells etc etc etc.

The main point that I was trying to make and what I thought this thread was about, is that revshare will make the affiliates more money in the long run. :upsidedow

The primary reason programs offer Rev Share is due to cash flow and risk mitegation. If I know and can prove that I can make 150 bucks on a cusotmer over a year then I am more then happy to pay 100$ PPS provided i have the cash upfront.

Jay

Lenny wouldn't you say you're more of an exception than the rule?

Wrong. Exits traffic, cross sales, members area upsales, ex member mailing, revshare affiliates, etc. So many methods of revenue generation a pps program uses. Not everyone is out to fuck you to survive.

You're wrong again. I AM a PPS Sponsor, and I give the resellers their "quick buck" (PPS) because that's what resellers want. The quick buck. And I know I will make money in the long run & I'm confident enough in my product to know that I will. We just gave our resellers a full week of $45 payouts. Why? Because we know we'll make money in the long run. Simple.

Again, you're missing MY point... CONTENT

And correct me if I'm wrong, but arent you a PPS sponsor preaching that PPS will make resellers more money? Of course you are. Why? Because it makes you more money.

That's BS. I'll give an example. One sponsor I use has both options. Now I can get $30 per sale or 65% revshare. Actually I can get $32.50 per sale if I make 50 sales a week but I won't count that since this bonus isn't offered with revsahre. Anyways trial is $5 so 65% of $5 is $3.25 Monthly is $25 so 65% of that is $16.25. So let's do some math

IF

100% of trials recur( yeah right ) then 65% of those would have to recur for 2 months or more to break even or do better.

50% trials recur then 71% for 3 months 29% for 4 months.

25% trials recur( most realistic ) 42% have to recur for 6 months 58% recur for 7 months. Sorry that shit aint happening.

Only way revshare would work MAYBE is if I promoted the monthly only and that's only if I could get the same amount of sales as I would promoting the trial. And that's very doubtful. Revshare depends too much on getting that once in a blue moon guy who recurs for 3 years in a row. And who is too say I'm going to be alive in 3 years or that program will exist in 3 years.

Show me a sponsor that will pay me 100% of a trial 90% on recurring and can prove that at least 75% of trials convert to monthly then maybe a promote revshare.

Shows how naive you are assuming I'm a newbie.

I'm all for it ...preach all day that PPS makes more for resellers. Absolutely. Makes more money for me in the end. :)

here's the truth. the hard fucking truth.


any - and I mean ANYONE who feels the need to publically put down another program to put theirs up is usually the one with the scammy program.

do i trust PPS - only from those companies i TRUST

do i trust revshare - only from those companies I trust


and the fact is - i trust PEOPLE - not companies. and base my decisions on that

Doesn't matter, most of them are still shaving in one way or another. That's just the way it is.
You can deny it all you want and show me spreadsheets with the voodoo math and all of that shit, but retention in this business is at an all time low and there are very very few programs that can pay out an honest $35 per signup.

I don't think so.
What makes my traffic any different from anyone else's traffic? It's no secret where I get my traffic from.

If running a revshare program produced the sales volume a PPS program generated, I think we'd all be happy running revshare programs. Large sales volume opens up the additional revenue streams for a program to make money. This is possible because *affiliates* want PPS.

There are clearly more revshare programs out there than pps programs, yet PPS is more popular. And you think the program owners wanna fuck you and make more money? Or maybe it's because affiliates AND program owners make more with PPS.

You say that PPS programs cant make enough $$ per member to pay $35.00 per join, but on your revshare example you said you are making $34.00. If this is a 50/50 program, it brought in $68.00 per join. I think if the PPS program made $68.00 per member, they can pay $35.00 per join without shaving.

Lou