Cincuenta!.......... :)

Ooops I think you used logic on him.

Jeeez, and I am no rocket scientist either.:winkwink:

51............

Paging .. 52... 52... needed in service elevator.

I said MOST programs aren't bringing in enough to pay $35 per signup.

Hit your "Esc" key to make the pain go away from any idiotic animated banner :)

Ok so MOST programs don't bring in $68 per membe,r then by the same logic them MOST programs couldn't pay you $34 per memebr on 50/50 revshare either.

What you are saying here is that you support PPS because it makes you, the program owner more money. Thus admitting that your affiliates would be better off if you were a revshare sponsor.

Great tip! Thank you, that banner was driving me crazy too.:thumbsup

LOL! Preach on brother, preach on :pimp

DH

and here's webmastering 101 for you (page 1, starting from the top):

1. I shall NEVER use flashing banner!!!!!!!!!!

I've noticed your posts before and on just about every ocasion (with this one exception) I closed the browser window simply because of your banner, the people that actually CLICK on your banner are the people that got connected to the Internet yesterday and think that you're supposed to click on anything that flashes in front of you

with that said, I'm with you on the PPS v/s revshare

It all depends - if you're talking about a small niche, it really does affect retention. And while a rev-share sponsor may be able to afford PPS, in a small niche it isn't necessarily the smarter move unless you know *where* the affiiate's traffic is coming from - or unless you restrict the PPS signup option to people whose traffic you know and trust.

The reason is simple. When a high-quality program is selling a very specific niche, traffic specific to that niche is going to retain much better than the "average." Traffic coming from god-knows-where is going to retain much, much, much, much worse. (add another "much" to that.) And there are a lot more of the latter than the former.

If I know that someone is sending me traffic from a good source in my niche, I'm happy to pay them PPS. I'll make more money that way. If someone is sending me traffic from hardcore TPGs or babe blogs, I'm not going to take all the risk by doing PPS with them. I'll make more money that way.

And since I want to retain the good affiliates long-term, I tell them that rev-share is the better option for them. If they want to go for the sure buck instead, that's fine with me :winkwink:

One example: I used to promote a sponsor with both, PPS and revshare. After sending traffic to both options, I had more than twice as many sales with the revshare option = more money even without waiting for rebills. So its not like you make the same amount of sales no matter where you send your traffic and only $$$/sale does matter. PPS tours have a shitload of traffic leaks and those extensive pop-ups don't help to convert the surfer either.

Should also consider that with PPS the "good" affiliates pay for the shit traffic / retention of the "bad" ones. This does not happen with revshare as everyone gets their fair shake. Bob might send traffic that averages 1.1 months retention while Mike averages 2.4 months. Revshare both get what they deserve, PPS Mike suffers by only getting enough to cover the overall average value of signups even though his traffic is worth twice as much as Bobs.

damn this thread is a good read

The people most likely to fuck you are the people you trust. Sad as it is true.

im not going to say one is better than the other.

but before i was a program owner, i promoted other paysites. i was sending equal traffic to both PPS and revshare. ya, at first the fast money was nice from the pps while the revshare took a LITTLE while longer to get going, but after 6 months when all the rebills started snowballing, i quit sending traffic to PPS entirely and all to revshare.

i couldnt get my PPS campaign past 3,500.00/week while my revshare with ONE SITE (trials only) was putting 8,000.00+/week in my pocket.

i know it :)
hmm i dont know about that.


I think wiredguy said it best , in alot of the situation its in your own best interest to let the program owner worry about retention ( i.e. use pps ) , but in some situations its foolish to go with pps

quoted for truth (the numbers are smaller for me, but the message is right) :thumbsup

Gee you're a quick one aren't you?

These are both things I've already stated.
MOST sites retain for shit, and it's why most PPS companies shave and why most revshare sales are worth like $15-18 apiece.

The "right" program makes all of the difference, whether it's PPS or revshare.

I pointed out my revshare numbers to show that PPS isn't always a higher payout. I point out industry wide retention numbers to show that on "average" you're not really getting $35-40 per signup for your traffic. Ends are being cut somewhere in order to acheive that payout.

As I said at first, this isn't a black and white issue, there's alot of grey area. Send your traffic to whomever makes you the most money, PERIOD.

Probably true most of the time. It seems that PPS-only sponors only vouch for PPS and Revshare-only sponors only vouch for revshare. Sponsors that offer both PPS and revshare and vouch for one method over the other may give us better insight. Just offer both and no more need for these debates:)

For me, as a reseller it's all traffic source dependant. For instance if I indentify that a source of traffic I have rebills over time with an average member value surpassing the PPS, then I know I have revshare traffic and send it to %. Otherwise it goes to PPS.

I apologize if you're not a newbie and I called you one :)

Please re-read my posts. I've explicitly pointed out that I personally would make a LOT more on revshare and that the affiliate would make less.

I'd love it if every single sponsor agreed at once to all switch to revshare and we agreed to put away the high risk pay per signup model forever.

Unfortuntaely for some reason I think that wont happen because somebody somewhere will always know that people prefer to get paid up front.

I'm not promoting PPS, what i'm doing is pointing out that all the arguments *for* revshare are self serving for the program owner.

Again, no. I make less on PPS but refer to my above post... we have to offer PPS to get the big #'s.

I have no problem with revshare, or smaller programs promoting their sites.. there are certainly unique niches where a small sponsor can do well and make an affiliate good money (note i'm not saying more than if they got paid pps).... my only issue is with programs that spout bullshit in order to convince people that PPS is somehow a scam or that revshare is better for the affiliate.

Buy a used 1988 chevy malibu.. be proud of it.. drive it, enjoy it.. just don't try to convince me that it's a brand new lexus. It insults my intelligence :)

Good point :thumbsup

This is your own reality, but that's fine. We'll agree on one thing. We are both opportunists seeking to maximize our profits.

best thing youve ever said.

It totaly depends on the niche. I wouldnt send targeted solo girl traffic to anything but revshare.

Webcam traffic, pps. Let them worry about the upsales.

Ebony I stick with pps as well.... Tested both, made more pps with it more then anything.

Asian is something else i prefer revshare with.

Play with both, figure out what best suits your needs and do that. Never put all your eggs in 1 basket...

Absolutely true. A crook is a crook, whether he owns a PPS or RevShare program. Whether he is stealing from you or the consumer, right is right and wrong is wrong. If you don't care where your money comes from or at what cost to whom, that's your choice. This whole conversation in here seems to be avoiding discussion about proper business practices, ways that the FTC clearly defines as being legal and illegal to do business. I can't wait to see some more of the crooks in our industry put in federal prison for how they defraud consumers.

Brad

I hear this a lot. If you don't mind me asking, how much do you feel per average a signup to a great solo girl site is worth?

There are a lot of really good reasons to utilize a rev share set up, you pointed out some. To be honest, I primarly sent to revshare as a webmaster and loved it; however I never did a great job at calculating what each member was worth and comparing it against PPS models.

I have never argued that it was unintelligent to send to rev share. I would and do now from a personal standpoint. However, from the business standpoint, it "seems" like the business is leaving money on the table.

That has nothing to do with the provider of traffic.

Does that make sense?

I don't think I was all that clear initially....

so far this year on all of my revshare programs I do over $40 per join compared to between $25-35 on pps.
there are many factors to take into consideration when choosing pps or revshare. Some programs just don't recur as well as others some of the mega sites out there or highly targeted niche sites can recur for years. You have to look at the content, is it exclusive? do they do regular updates? how is the members area designed? is it user friendly/easy to navigate? how many sites do they have in their program? etc.
So you can't really say revshare is better than pps or the other way around for that matter...it is really dependant on the program/sites IMHO

PPS DEBUNKED One Time Only For The Sheep!

______________________________________________

I am so sick of this constant crap from pps programs screaming how they make people more money... so this evening.. and only right now, as a revshare program user I will give you the no bullshit explanation why you will make more with a revshare program than a pps program in the long run.

And we begin.. pps 101.

The bottom line here...pps programs like revshare programs are in business to turn a profit. As much as possible. They would likely be unhappy with a 2% return. If they were losing money they would lower the PPS. If they were completely losing money they would go out of business. PROFIT IS THE BOTTOM LINE.

So given the above FACT I see only one logical conclusion to the statement "you'll make more with pps than with revshare, so promote our pps program".

The logical conclusion is one of three choices:

either
A) The pps program can't afford to revshare and they are hoping to spin things in their favor with crosssales and covert advertising. There is no shame in this.

or

B) The pps program can absolutely afford to pay revshare, but THEY make a ton more money by convincing sheep they need them to accept the "risk".

or

C) They actually make less money. If they say you make more with their pps program vs revshare then that means they are making less with pps vs revshare. There is only a dollar here to be divided up so many ways.

My response to those 3 options?

A - Respectable as long as the are honest.

B - You're being schooled. Go back to wendy's.

C - Pretty fucking unlikely. They simply wouldn't make a choice to earn less. They aren't your momma. They don't love you. They don't have high hopes for your future as a doctor. They are in business to earn a profit. Refer back to the universal fact that we are all here to make a profit.


There are 99 ways you can lose EVERY DIME owed to you by a pps program... there is only ONE way that you can get paid!

And that my friends.. is why the smart money.. the gambler who knows the odds puts their hard earned traffic into revshare.




With that said...

I'll guarantee in writing that you will earn more with INSERTSPONSORNAMEHERE than with any other sponsor."

the single most important factor to making money in this business is not revshare vs PPS. its how well a site sells with your traffic. you can promote a PPS sponsor at 1:10000, or a revshare at 1:1000, who you going to pick? and dont even focus in on ratios, how many pps sponsors build devices into their program that dont even track sales down to the affiliate, like not cookieing traffic to affiliates, putting their own account code on the enter link off index.html on the main domain, etc - then dress up the ratio by showing 2nd page, 3rd page, join page unique/ "qualified" hits. these are all tactics used to be able to pay out PPS. i only started making real money in this business when i started promoting solid revshare companies. how come almost every PPS sponsor uses proprietary stats software. why don't these guys count with nats, or directly thru ccbill which is going to give the affiliates the most sales? the amount of PPS programs who use a 3rd party to count, is an overwhelming minority in this business.

the true answer is, with some sponsors you'll make more on PPS, and other sponsors you'll make more on revshare. but at the end of the day, if a sponsor pays out $40 a join, but converts 1:10000, you think you're going to be better off cause its PPS, than revshare? thats why i always laugh when i see programs with insanely his PPS rates, because if its too good to be true, it probably is.

with what lenny was saying above how with a certain revshare program he was making $34/sale - $34/sale with a revshare program will make you a lot more than with a $34 PPS program, because at the end of the day, that revshare program will probably show a significant amount of more sales based upon counting techniques. obviously everything i say is relative to site to site and there are always exceptions, but this is looking at everything from a generalistic view of the industry as a whole.

Quickbuck uses their own merchant account and from what they say their rebills or better on their own merchant account then third party, so even more profit for them

although I disagree with a lot of the stuff said in this thread *cough*smokeythebear*cough* it is at least entertaining and informative.

bigdog.. you can promote our merchant sites on our 60/40 program. That program is console free, contains no cross sales and the only upsell is to convert from trial to full by limiting access to trial members.

We also offer a 100% program on all those same sites but you have to accept a cross sale on the join form that you dont get paid for and exit consoles.

heh i was just pointing out the flipside :) i think any informed webmaster knows you have to mix it up..

It isnt all written in stone.. i have revshare sponsors that the average member is worth more than what im getting with the very same sponsor , very same site.. nothing is different but my cut.. you cant tell me that the pps is better.

If i send 10 signups a day to pps and 10 a day to the same site for revshare and after 2 months the $$ is more for revshare , how can pps be better ?

Recently a friend who also runs a linklist did an amazing spreadsheet of all of his revshare (ccbill) sponsors that include just about every program out there - the time span on the stats ranged from a few months to almost 6 years depending on the sponsor and when he joined. He also split it to programs with and without trials offered. On the no-trials programs and with his traffic which is extremely good and very niche targetted, an overall average of around $20 a signup was the norm although it ranged from $7 to $35 - I didnt see any sites that did better than that over the lifetime of the program. With the trial versions of course the average dropped amazingly to an average of around $14 per signup.

Of course the more important stat that most here are leaving out of the equation is the amount earned per click - on this the revshare was no different than the PPS stats I looked at with a few glaring outstanders but those were two programs that had one specific site that no one else offers a niche site for and they did amazingly better both in % retention, earnings per signup, and earnings per click - but that was expected.

bing bing bing!!!!

it's all about long term. The people who want money now, today, now now now, are forfieghting a lot of dough that would accumulate with a little bit of patience.

PPS is great for the n00b who cant wait to make a couple thousand bucks quick, but once he's caught up to wherever he/she needs to be, it's best to move onto a recurring revenue source.

:thumbsup infact i was just looking at my occash stats and overall my revshare income is on par with a pps program ( avg 35$ ) and occash is rather new , so in a few more months the revshare will have surpassed pps if you guys had pps isntead..

I would say i use about 75% revshare and 25% pps

glad to hear it bro....

let me know if you need ANYTHING at all. I will work Easter Sunday for you if you need anything. :thumbsup

again. affiliates demand pps. it's not some smoke and mirrors trick being performed by all the pps programer owners to make you think pps is better than revshare. obviously you need volume to increase your profit. affiliates want pps. so program owners go with pps because it's what affiliates want. if owners could get the sales volume they get from pps with revshare, they would be doing revshare only.

totally agree with you there , most webmasters seem to want pps. I like sponsors who offer both.

LOL .. I just cant pass by ..

1) If you program converts 1:2000 for some aff and with our program he makes 1:500 on same traffic, he already lost 3 signups which is 45 usd without rebills.

2) Some affs bring traffic which is rebiling better, some dont.
I dont want to balance it by shaving or adding cross sales.
I would rather work with everybody on revshare and give everyone the credit they earned. And I dont need to squeeze anyone. I just need to get my service on top and content attractive enought. We shoot all the cotent
ourselves. Most of our models are never seen before.This is what I am supposed to carry for and not how to squeeze people.
If sales are going down for some reason revshare affs keep getting rebills and this is is huge advantage for affs too.

3) The industry would breathe much freely without pre checked cross sales and on this part you cant argue alot.

Wiseman told me if i didnt promote quickbuck he was going to throw a chair at me :(
lol j/k

DUke

exactly. test & go with what works best with your traffic. most dont want to test, so they just go with the sure thing ...PPS. Which is fine with me

I dunno...I make an average of $68 dollars per join with Naughty America and $70-something with Meatcash.

I think you rant is just a shameless self promotion of your lame program.

Thanks dude.