Can a liberal please help me with this Deem & Pass issue?
 

First off, I'm centrist - honestly hate both of the major parties out there and don't fully fit in with the others either.

I'm honestly confused about this whole Deem & Pass thing. The senate has passed a health care bill. Congress feels that the health care bill is unpopular. They also want to make amendments to make it pass. It sounds like this whole Deem & Pass thing is supposed to ultimately pass an amended bill without a vote, because they're afraid of voting yes on an unpopular item.

But wouldn't the fact that the dems are the party that is pushing Deem & Pass in this case basically paint the entire Dem party as wanting to vote yes on this bill? How does it not do that?

I'm just trying to understand this because it just seems like I have to be missing something here. It seems like the dems are fucked in general due to the focus on this health care bill to begin with as if it'd be simple, when it's not the real issue the average person is faced with anyways, i.e. Bush's Iraq War vs. focusing on finding Osama Bin Laden = Obama's Health Care push vs. fixing the economy and creating jobs. Still though, this Deem & Pass tactic to me would only further fuck the party because it would damage EVERYONE in the party if they truly feel it's an unpopular item.

I can't help but think of most republicans as old curmudgeons (which John McCain, whom I actually DID like in 2000, came off as in his pres running in 2008) so I'm not looking forward to whomever will be undoubtedly taking Obama's position in 2012, but things are not looking good for him or the Dem party right now, so we'll be back to that soon I guess. There needs to be a party that gives a shit about the people that comes into power but that'll never happen. :(

Ron paul. I would say ask nation-x or kane as they seem to be the only competent non conservatives on this forum.

They are hoping that they can sell the health bill to everyone after it passes to keep their jobs

They have decided not to use deem and pass because there is no way to bind the senate to their rule vote. The purpose was to be able to pass the senate bill while tying in the "fixes" so that both things would be passed if the reconciliation bill was passed... the parliamentarian shot that down so now they will have separate votes on the senate bill and on the reconciliation bill. There would have still been 2 votes with deem and pass... the people have been saying their would be no vote were lying... the difference is that if they voted on a deem and pass rule, the vote would have been recorded as a procedural vote instead of a direct vote on the legislation.

Btw... another cute trick that the GOP has pulled here is that they have framed deem and pass as if the dems invented it... reality is that the GOP has used it 202 times since 1996 and even won a ruling in court over the constitutionality of it. They were sued by the dems for using it in 2004 and ended up winning in appeals court.

I don't know if this is accurate. I think they stated that it has never been used to decide such a controversial issue. Also:
http://gopleader.gov/News/DocumentSi...umentID=177260

I think that's one hell of a strategy to be honest.

Also this: https://youtube.com/watch?v=CbHTJSu_2Lk

I think that's funny.

John Boehner is a lying talking-point machine... and you can tell immediately by watching that video that it's a fake. Come on bro... you have to come with something better than that.

Here is the court ruling that the GOP won
http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/docs/...5/06-5232a.pdf

Seriously, both the GOP and The Dems are hypocrites... The GOP has used Reconciliation AND Deem and Pass... AND the dems bitched about it every time they did it but are now willing to use it themselves. Personally, I am willing to give the dems a pass on using it purely because I don't see any good reason why the GOP doesn't deserve to have their own tools used against them... it's a matter of balance. They want to be able to use those procedures but don't like it when they are used against them. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Now... as far as "An issue as big as this"... are you speaking in terms of politics or money? Because if we are talking money... you are wrong. Both reconciliation and deem and pass were used to pass the Bush tax cuts and those cost $2.4 trillion in lost revenue to date... plenty of money to pay for the Medicare prescription bill that was passed unfunded by the Republican Congress.

How is the video a fake? And how is Boehner a lying talking point machine? He's no different than Pelosi or Obama. I was stating that this tactic can prove very effective.

No, I know about the tax cuts, I'm talking about it from a political standpoint.

I fully understood the GOP had used it in the past and more or less WHAT doing it was supposed to accomplish, but I had been reading in places that the strategic reason it was being done was so that none of the Dems would have to directly vote yes on it and suffer backlash from having voted yes on something that was unpopular. Was that correct at least? If so, then I was just curious how it couldn't be seen that with the Dems having pushed this option, from a backlash standpoint that it's effectively all of them voting yes.

Anyways, kind of moot issue now that they're not doing it. I think they made the best choice but was just trying to understand why they were so eager to try that in the first place.

Watch it... you can tell the words don't even match what he is saying and the overdub is off.

Yeah ok... I am not going to waste my time arguing over that... we will never agree on it.

Debatable


Yeah ok... I am not going to waste my time arguing over that... we will never agree on it.[/QUOTE]

Are you saying that Boehner is more of a liar than those two, or that Pelosi and Obama aren't liars? Either way you're looking biased.

Personally, I think Pelosi is more full of shit than any one politician at this point.

Most brilliant use of irony I've ever seen.

Using a book of the bible to point out stupidity and not spelling stupidity correctly just to reinforce the issue pretty much kills at least two birds with one stone :1orglaugh

"Book of Revelation chapters 16 to 21 is why Fundamentalist Christians in America support Israel and exactly why we shouldn't support anything to do with this stupdity."

hahahaha that's why it's in my quote. His idiocy is limitless.

It depends on who you listen to... of you listen to a "conservative" you will get the negative narrative and the exact opposite from the left. I never heard any democrat saying that the use of deem and pass was to avoid the vote... that all came from the right-wing. I heard dems say that they were trying to figure out a way to make sure that the "fixes" in the reconciliation bill would be guaranteed to pass... so they wanted to tie the two bills together... unfortunately for them, they weren't able to do that and bind the senate in the process. The complication is that if they don't use reconciliation, the GOP will just filibuster the bill and not allow a vote... so they can't go through conference... which is the normal process. If the GOP would just allow an up and down vote the dems wouldn't have to use reconciliation to bypass the filibuster...

Again, I think the GOP will stand down if the Dems publically announce their individual votes. I think that's rather fair.. Btw, it would be cool if you weren't blatantly biased lol.

lol... no they won't. They even filibuster bills and nominations they support. The house has sent them 290 bills in the last year and they have filibustered every single one. There have been a slew of nominees that they have filibustered and after the cloture vote defeated the filibuster they vote unanimously to confirm the nominee. They are playing pure politics to prevent the dems from governing even a little bit.

No, they're playing pure politics to prevent the dems from governing TOO much because the Dems seem to be completely out of touch with reality and the American people, which is why they're looking worse and worse. If the Democrats took a step back and did something logical for a change, like analyze the health care bill and vote on it individually, I highly doubt the Republicans would try and filibuster as much..

Btw, I do find it ironic that you've virtually passed off every criticism of the left/Democrats that I've seen on this forum, as right wing propaganda. I could use the exact same logic and reverse the groups, but that wouldn't get us anywhere, now would it?

No shit, and it would be a really sad thing if they are rewarded with ANY new seats in return for fucking over the American people.

If you can't see what the GOP has been doing since Obama was voted in, then you are either blind, or YOU ARE BIASED BEYOND BELIEF.

They are simply the party of NO, and they are doing everything to try and convince people that Obama can't get anything done, while they drag everything down to a near halt.

There are over 150 republican requests in the current healthcare bill. If the bill came out IN ANY SIZE they would not support it, simply because they clearly don't care about healthcare, and because they will do anything to stop Obama from accomplishing anything.

For them to say this bill should be scrapped and started over is so ridiculous and transparent it is absurd!

That, my friend, is a purely republican talking point. I don't know where you live... but the majority of the American people are not conservatives... they are Independants... and that does not mean they are Libertarian either... it means they are swing voters. The majority of the country voted for Obama... there may have been SOME people who regret their vote... but it isn't a great majority by far. The majority wants the public option... go look at any poll that asks that question and the answer is clear.

Like the Democrats are doing now?

I'll use your logic. "If you can't see how the Democrats are fucking themselves and the American people, you are biased beyond belief!"

They don't have to convince anyone that Obama can't get anything done, because he can't. But please, continue regurgitating the bullshit you hear on TV or from other disillusioned morons. Let this conversation stay between the adults.

+1 for stupidity and baseless assumptions.

I'm glad you have any kind of legitimate argument to back this up. Oh wait...

1. Republican talking point? Just say that you and other Democrats like to cop out of an argument by calling something "right wing" or "Republican". Again, i'll do the same. "Everything you just stated was left wing propaganda". See how effectively that ends the conversation?

2. The majority of the people oppose Obama right now, if you REALLY want to get into votes.

3. The majority of the people do NOT want the public option, NOR Obamacare. Now please, stop using nonsense and polls as the basis for your arguments. I've given you a lot of credit for being able to understand the Deem and Pass rule, don't ruin it with your biased bullshit.

Arguing with a mentally handicapped person will only frustrate you. It is best to either dismiss him as the ass he is, or, if you prefer, sling insults at him.

He is a message board mosquito. Facts evade him. He is a brainwashed Fox News droid.

Says the second dumbest people on gfy:) Is there any wonder why nobody other than me responds to you? I really pity you but I love watching you post. It makes me feel good being so much smarter than someone like you :)

The idiots that are supporting them in their obstruction effort have very short memories or don't have a good understanding of what they support... they don't remember how the Jack Abramoff scandal dug deep into the GOP and even brought down the Speaker of the House and high ranking administration staffers. Just wait to see what happens over the Ensign affair... they have just started down that rabbit hole and have already uncovered Quid Quo Pro deals, violations of Lobbying Laws, NRSC payoffs and more.

I think that the dems should call their bluff and MAKE them filibuster every fucking bill. That is what Clinton did and he ended up winning.

Because Clinton was a competent president and the Democrats are pussies. Furthermore, Clinton got a lot done because the Republicans controlled the House and Senate for most of his presidency. It never works when one party controls everything.

Btw, I think you're the first person to respond to BFT3K in I don't know how long. Perhaps someone who is dumb beyond belief might finally get that needed self esteem boost.

Most people don't understand what the public option even is? They just think they are going to lose their healthcare or it's going to get more expensive if healthcare reform is passed. They would be singing a different song if they were fighting ass cancer or something similar. Most people are just easily manipulated sheep.

The reality is, if Obama gets healthcare past, he will be a shoe-in in 2012.

They know this, and they are SCARED... for good reason.

He will instantly get 30,000,000+ solid votes, and they will be FUCKED!

Agreed about the easily manipulated part, so why do Democrats/Liberals constantly try and use polls as their argument?

The Demon: Please defer to Nation X

Nation X: Well...

The Demon: No, you're wrong and its because of X and Y

Why the fuck say to defer to Nation X if you're just going to dispute what he says?

Also, I thought I was the second dumbest person on GFY? Or was I third?

I don't know if this would be a post full of baseless assumptions, or pure, unadulterated bullshit. I think I'll go with the latter.

If Obama gets health care passed(try using the right words so you don't seem more of an idiot than you already are), then most likely he won't get creamed in 2012. Unless he does something miraculous, good luck to him having any shot at repeating.

Show me where I made that claim? Based on your post, you're right up there. Now let me dumb it down for you. I hate doing this but there are so many morons on this forum it's a necessity.

I told PornMD to defer to Nation X regarding the Deem and Pass rule. That's the name of the thread? Get that part?

Me and Nation X started having an argument about other things. Get that?

My disagreement with Nation X about our fundamental differences has no bearing on me deferring to him to explain the Deem and Pass rule. Get that? Or are you lost?

You should probably go post on redstate or freerepublic... they will actually back you on the bullcrap you post sometimes. Clinton had to shut down the government to call the Republicans bluff... you can be revisionist all you want. From 1994 on the Republicans did what they could to obstruct... once Clinton shut down the government they realized they had a player on their hands... that is why they did everything they could to catch him up in wrongdoing... and they eventually busted him for getting a blowjob.

Good point, I can refer to you to some left wing propaganda and we can keep playing this "you're biased" bullshit all day long.
This has to do with what exactly? I wasn't arguing history. I loved Clinton as a president, aside from his massive bank reform fuck up. Clinton had balls. Obama and these worthless democrats do not. But again, regardless of the specifics, things work better when different parties control the presidency, and the house/senate.

:2 cents:

Oh sweet. Since BFT3K is both illiterate and incompetent, he needs pictures to make sure the words are spelled correctly:)

Me and you have fundamental differences, like I have with Liberals and Democrats. But I have a few Democrat friends because they can be objective. The difference between you and me is, you've proven to be biased while I've proven to be objective. I have no problems with calling Clinton a more or less, great president. I argued with Vendzilla about the validity of Baier's interview. I oppose Obama and his policies NOT because I'm a Republican and he's a Democrat, but because his ideologies conflict with mine. IF you want to be taken seriously, maybe you can show some objectivity once in a while, if ever.

You better hope they pass healthcare, then maybe they can come out with a vaccine that cures ignorance. If not, then I guess your life will just have to hobble along as is.

Yes one of us is a realist, and the other is an asshat going by the name "The Demon".

I'm not sure they do and I'm not sure it matters what they use to to back up their argument against people such as Sarah Palin's crew who try and claim she has foreign affairs experience because she's on the Russian border (Alaska) just as one example of their ludicrous logic.

Conservatives know something has to be done about healthcare too. They just don't want it to be done by the democrats, and they make out by backing the insurance companies at this time so delay as long as possible. It's really that simple.

It's really impossible to argue any legit facts because no one here has access to any.

Unfortunately for you, there's no cure for stupidity. I guess I'll just have to keep making fun of you.