To Those That Oppose The War Effort
 

Okay. Here I am sitting in my kitchen talking with my wife. I was telling her about a story that I had just read at FOXNews regarding a captured American soldier, 20, by the name of Keith M. Maupin of Batvia, OH, USA.

It occured to me that I myself have been having ill feelings towards this 'War' and the fact that my President was sending yet even more people to the Middle East to serve.

I reflected on my Grandfather for a second. I have sat with him, a Veteran (Yes I capitalize Veteran out of respect), countless ours hearing his stories about WWII where he was a communications engineer. He has told me the stories of France & Germany where he served 3 years solid on one tour of duty. He left the United States when my Grandmother was pregnant with my Uncle. He returned when he was almost 2 years old and could say Daddy. It is absolutely unheard of to hear of a serviceman or woman leaving this country to serve for that length of time, yet no one then complained.

Now, don't get me wrong. I am not saying that people's concerns are not valid. I just find it very strange how the people of this country (The US where I am writing this from, my home country) stand regarding war issues. I hear it on the news. I read it in the papers. I read it on the boards. President & government bashing.

What happened to spirit and war effort? We are in Iraq simply because we felt it our wordly duty to rid a tyrannical man of power. He is one of the MOST evil people to ever walk this planet. He murders, mames & mutilates without just cause. He starves his people and enjoy his riches however he sees fit. The thought is ridiculous for anyone to see Saddam Hussein as anything more than filth.

Now take his 'legacy' and place that in light of September 11th, 2001. You can remember that day. We all can. It was without a doubt the scariest day I can remember in my 29 years of life. I had NO IDEA what was going on. What do I do? Should I call someone? Who would do this to us, and even more importantly, how were they able to get away with it?

Well, they did it because they are evil. They were able to do it because we had let our guard down. This can not happen again. Will it? Hopefully not, but it may. The US states that we had intel on Weapons of Mass Destruction. Well, as far as we can see thus far, the intel was wrong. Does that make our invasion any less unjust? What if it was correct and we didn't. Would Saddam use it if he could? Damn Skippy!

I guess my whole point is that in just 60 years, my country has changed. We no longer seem to support our President, our government, or our troops the way we used to. 60 years ago there was a war effort that was unfathomable. From textiles, to steel - we did it for the troops, and we did it CHEAP. Advertisements on the radio and in print all made sure we remembered what was important to us. People composed songs dedicated to the troops. Why? Because our country was at war, that's why.

Why were we at war? December 7, 1941. How many killed December 7, 1941? 2,403 Navy, Army, Marine & civilian personell.

Why are we at war now? September 11, 2001. How many killed Sepetember 11th, 2001? 3,030 Men, Women, Children & Military personell.

Same situation, just a different date on the calendar. I think that just typing this out has changed my outlook on the war a bit, and maybe it will you too. Who knows.

Stop and think about where your heart is regarding this war. We are there for the good of the American people as well as the well being of the entire world. We are there to make sure that we retain freedom. Freedom is a hard thing to achieve in the first place, so let's not lose it.

Oil? Well, all I have to say is Spoils Of War. Sorry if I bored you, just figured some of you guys and gals would have some intellectual rebuttals worth a discussion. :glugglug

:thumbsup

I agree with you 100%, but you have to also look at what the war in Iraq has really done. It has undermined the war on terror. Instead of eliminating Al-Qaeda, we let them get bigger, stronger, and more able. So will we see another terrorist attack? More than likely. And we have no one to blame but ourselves. Had Bush attacked Iraq say in another year or two and given all those resources to the war on terror, I think it would be a different story (in terms of the American public's support for our leadership and military roles). :2 cents:

with all the press and real time viewings of the killings..war of today is very different than WW2..this brings it all very close to home.

the world wars were started by countries trying to enter other countries.

this "war" was started by a country trying to enter another country.

I don't support invasions no matter who does the invading.

Hi,

I don't know if you cought the news briefing this morning... But Tony Blair told it like it is... The UK is lucky to have such a great leader... And all the people that are not supporting our troops, are most likely the ones that give their "kids time outs" instead of a gold old fashion spanking...

Great Job with your writing llabtaem...

Denny

US media crucifies Saddam for killing the same people we're killing now.
Either it's justifiable to kill them or it's not. That debate is complex.
But can we at least kill this hypocritical doublestandard?

You think Saddam deserved anything but getting the shit kicked out of his regime? Should madmen not be invaded and their people be freed, simply because the word "invasion" sounds bad?

I think what you're missing here is the purpose of invasions in respect to the people of the country. If the people are being invaded to be oppressed, that is one thing. But invasion that gets rid of oppresion and murder is different.

And that's your choice to make? mine? Bush's?

Who decides who should and shouldn't be allowed to kill people? Which country decides how other countries should be run and what laws or standards they should have to live by?

Obviously the Iraqi people are very grateful. See how they celebrate?

The US didn't object in when they let Saddam kill vast numbers of poor rebels after the US backed out of Iraq the first time. Now all of sudden he's primary objective number one, ten years and more later. I would support a war effort if I agreed with the REAL reasons behind it. But I haven't even been told the real reasons, so how can I support an administration that doesn't trust its own citizens enough to be honest with them?

blah.

nb: I have nothing but gratitude and respect for individuals who have chosen to lay their life on the line for their own country. This isn't about them.

You have Cliff Notes on this post?

Right. Because calm rational people don't embrace violence.
vs. people who were taught at a very young age that if someone does something you don't like, the solution is to hit them.

Maybe instead of making vague generalizations about the topic, we should look at the specific scenario. A country where the leader could have classes of 12 year old girls come to his palace, and choose which ones to rape. If anyone said anything bad about it, he could just order them and their whole family tortured and murdered. Let's deal with the real world, not hippie-style pontificating.

And yes the majority of Iraqis polled are glad the US has taken out Saddam. If you think rebel groups still fighting us are indicitive of the Iraqi people, wake up.

Exactly...

Give me a war with a justified reason... something that the people of the world can stand behind and support... and I'll be in the cheering section myself.

But obviously this isn't a war that the people of the war can stand behind.

Bush supporters would have us believe that the entire world is wrong, and wimpy.

Perhaps it's just that the rest of the world has a different view, a less brainwashed view, a more unbaised view.... a more accurate view.

Need you be told the reasons? The terror is in the news daily. What other reasons do you need? I'm not trying to start an argument, just a discussion :)

And also when you state, "nb: I have nothing but gratitude and respect for individuals who have chosen to lay their life on the line for their own country. This isn't about them. "

Well, everytime you have something negative to say (People in general, not you Elli it effects them. It is about them.:winkwink: ) it effects them. It effects the overal morale of the people involved. :2 cents:

Okay MaksedMan. What would be proper jusification for war in your eyes? I'm curious

Right wingers say they support the war, but they aren't willing to make any sacrifices to pay for it. They want a tax break in the middle of Bush's war. That's not supporting the troops.

Oil of course. Viva la Bush!

Touche'. I am selfish in that respect, a tax break in the middle of a war I support does sound nice. But at least I'm not selfish in the way of thinking we should sit idly by when millions could be free from a madman.

Finally someone said something smart.

WWII was a different beast, and cost much more in lives - but so much more was at stake. It's a bit different when you have Nazi Germany recklessly attacking and over running dozens of countries vs. Iraq who's problems and wars were mostly internal with the exception of Iran and Kuwait.

The public feared Nazi Germany; No one complained. The US lost how many men? Two million? And yet that was a drop in the bucket compared to what Russia lost.

So you're calling Bush a liar? He said it was about weapons of mass destruction and shit.


The wacky muslim fundamentalists say the exact same thing about Dubya. Does that give them the moral right to attack the US, knowing full well that innocent civilians will get killed?


Actually, a very different situation. The Germans, the Italians and the Japanese were officially allies, the Japanese attacked the US before they got declared on by the US, and the Germans and the Italians declared war on the US before the US declared on them.

Saddam and Al Qaeda, on the other hand, didn't have any real connection apart from both severely disliking the US. Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, nothing whatsoever, apart from probably seeing it on tv and having a good laugh.


Yeah, plundering the middle east will really put an end to terrorism. Good thinking, Spanky.

You're partially correct. It was oil, maybe some payback for his dad, but look at it from a positivie standpoint also. We did take out a guy who killed, raped, and tortured hundreds of thousands of his own people for nothing more than his own pleasure. Yeah, we did help him take control, we fucked that up. We should have stayed out of that region and watch it destroy itself in the first place. But we didn't. Just like we didn't present day. But that's reality. And as someone mentioned earlier, Iraqis are more than happy we're there; despite the fighting in three cities (where most people we're loyal to Saddam b/c he didn't rape, torture, and kill them), it can't be taken as indicitive for the rest of the country's feelings. Look at cities in the south, like Basra, where British troops are occupying. How many British troops have you heard killed this past month? So even though we dropped the ball and screwed the pooch on this one, I think people should still get behind their country. :2 cents:

Good point, actually; a big difference is that while Nazi Germany, Japan, etc did pose a threat and managed to conquer half the world, Iraq was no threat at all.

Dubya doesn't rape and murder Americans for fun. Let's cut the "who's to say what's wrong and right in these crazy times?" bullshit.

Yes, I need to be told the reasons. Ireland has been the victim of terrorism for decades, as has Palestine, Israel, India, lots of Africa, etc etc. The US is not the only country to experience terror attacks by a radical group.

The daily news is a fear mongering machine let by multinationals who are wanting those tax breaks from Bush.

If every time I have something negative to say, it affects their morale, then people should stop asking for opinions. When I ask my man, "Does this dress make me look fatter than I am?" He says, "Yes." I have no right asking for an opinion and not expecting honesty in return.

Now the time has come to liberate Americans from their evil tyrant dictator. :thumbsup

WWII started long before the US got involved. It was Pearl Harbor that incited our participation.

Middle Eastern Muslim Fundamentalism has been around for a LONG time too. It was September 11th that brought us back into the Middle East :2 cents:

Very cute, but a dictator doesn't go to congress first to approve war, and get bi-partisan support.

Actually, the Sunni supporters of Saddam aren't the only ones that pose a problem. The fanatical Shia groups also hate you Americans with a passion. The Kurds, when they find out that they won't get their own country, a big amount of autonomy, or even protection from Turkish raids, will start fighting again as well.

Truth is that most Iraqi people are against the west and the US specifically, and once the dust has settled (it might well settle only after a civil war in which the country is divided in two) it will become clear that they still don't love the US.

No, a dictator just thumbs his nose at an international diplomatic body designed to keep the world from falling apart at the seams. Oh wait, both Saddam and Bush did that.

Nothing to do with "crazy times". People always think that "their" side is right. Most muslims think the US and Israel are in league and want to destroy all muslims.

And Ireland, Palestine, Israel & India have had a staunch revolt for many years, WITH their people backing them. What makes you think that the US should not fight back? I know that the US is not the only country to be terrorized. We were blinded by thousands of miles of oceans and the unrealistic notion that we would be safe. We were wrong. Should we sit on standby and wait for something else to happen? Or should we nip this problem in the butt before it gets way too out of hand and we end up like Ireland, Palestine, India etc.

Because we have the funds, people & resources to protect ourselves shouldn't be a cause for irate or maybe even possibly hard feelings or hatred.

Having some sickos insurge into the US, learn our customs and ways of life (Which are completely different from theirs) is sneaky and dastardly. This is a REAL situation with REAL consequence. One way or the other, it needs to be stopped.

I understand that. All I'm saying is quit the rhetorical bullshit and deal with what YOU believe in your heart is right. Was Saddam cool? Was what he was doing right? Should that be OK?

YES idiots can be convinced of anything. What have you been convinced of?

I agree completely. I still maintain that honesty and forthrightness from the administration could have swayed me to support the war effort in the beginning. However, Bush and his administration has shown themselves to be completely untrustworthy and reckless. I can't support that.

That's the definition of a dictactor, huh? It has nothing to do with whether he runs his own country by a democratic system? Have fun with your definitions :)

Agreed he and his boyz were monsters....

but

Why then when a whole race of people in Rwanda..Women, Men, Children and Babies were being butchered in the streets in their homes in hospitals in schools..machetes bashing their skulls in, cutting V's in their skulls and left to suffer and die. Why were they not "liberated" ? Offered freedom from a mad man performing racial genocide? Where was the Worldy duty?

USA probably killed as many ppl then Saddam killed in the past 10 years. .. You are there because you want to save Iraq ??? BULL FUCKING SHIT . Bush want to end up a personal war and get oil . In couple months / years from now you are gonna leave Irak with another dictatorship OR civil war.

Good question. Someone should have stepped in. Do two wrongs make a right, though?

Putting words in my mouth.. I didn't say that was a definition. I said it was one of the signs of a dictator.

Democracy has a lot to do with the definition of a dictator. From Webster's: "Dictator: One invested with absolute authority; especially, a magistrate created in times of exigence and distress, and invested with unlimited power." It sounds like the power Bush assumed when he went ahead with the war effort despite the questions and international protests.

You really seem to lack a clue.

#1: The US got involved before Pearl Harbor, by supplying Great Britain with food and other supplies (even though the ships were often attacked by German submarines), which is the sole reason that Great Britain managed to hold on for that long.
Had the US not done that, the Germans would have probably managed to break GB, and the war would have gone entirely different.

#2: The only reason Pearl Harbor happened was because everyone knew the US would get involved in the war sooner or later. There had already been several indications that they were starting to get more involved. Pearl Harbor was just an attempt by the Japanese to knock down the US before they could become a real threat, and basically scare them away from the conflicts in the area.

#3: SADDAM WAS NOT A MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALIST. Really, he wasn't. No, I mean it. He actually fought a big fucking war against the theocracy of Iran. The fundamentalist Shia groups in his own country hated him with a passion.
If anything, his fall will help muslim fundamentalism gain a foothold in Iraq.

#4: Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.

#5: It was not 9/11 that brought the US back in the middle east. The US have supported Israel for many years now, they also support Turkey, and remember when the last Gulf War took place?
The US didn't get brought back to the middle east, they never left.

You seem to be under the assumption that any country that acts without the full support of the entire world is a dictator. How do you decide which countries deserve a vote? France wanted Saddam in power for its own reasons, for instance.

Bush had the support of congress in America, and large countries like England, Spain, and Australia on his side. A dictator would have been able to order war without the support of congress, let alone allies.

I am personally convinced that there is no "good" side. Saddam was a crazy, disgusting, almost inhumanly cruel dictator. The muslim fundamentalists are borderline retarded haters of all they don't understand - which is pretty much everything. Western imperialism has destroyed self-sufficient cultures and enslaved people simply because they had a different skin color. Communism has slaughtered millions of people for random reasons. Free market economy and democracy have raised trade barriers that cause millions of children in third world countries to starve each year, and have sacrificed millions of lives for slightly higher profit margins.


I have not "been convinced" of anything. I <b>am</b> convinced of something though, and that is that there is no hope for humanity. We are a race of selfish, cruel, bloodthirsty creatures, that will continue to make this world a living hell until a big fucking meteorite hits this planet and blows it all away.