#1) Britain is and was an ally. What's wrong with helping a brother out? We didn't sucker punch the other guy when we probably should have. We fucked up, hence Pearl Harbor - the rest is history.

#2) Try to knock us down? Well, I guess they hit the wrong target. Before we could become a REAL THREAT? We were the threat. Think about it for a second.

#3) He may not be one per sey - but just because he has an organized version of Al Quaeda doesn't make it any better. Do you think he would have a problem helping out some fellow Muslims with similar ideas and anti West beliefs? There are many reports out there that Atta from the Twin Towers had ties to Iraq and Saddam's inner circle.

#4) Directly? Maybe not. Indirectly? Absolutely. If he could have sunk a 20 megaton ICBM into Manhattan he would have a long time ago. He preaches this anti Western crap, and people listen. Then small sects of idiots like Al Quaeda pop-up. Why? Propaganda from dickwads like Saddam.

#5) They were "Brought Back". Do you think all these troops were there when it started? What about the ones going over now? Were they there too? Read into my statements and don't take everything I hahahahaha so literally. I know there were people there before this started. Just nowhere near the number there are now.

Sadly, I think we can all agree on that :(

#1: It has nothing to do with something being wrong with "helping a brother out". I said that the US were involved, which you just admitted yourself. Thanks.

#2: They knew the US were the threat, mainly because of it's industrial capabilities. They just made a miscalculation with regards to how the US would react to a first strike. But, once again, you only confirm the point I was making: Pearl Harbor happened *because* the US were a threat. Thanks again.

#3: Al Qaeda were not Saddam's "fellow muslims". Saddam was fiercely opposed to a theocracy, and most fundamentalists were fiercely opposed to Saddam. Saddam even fought the fundamentalists.
Also, there are many reports that Elvis is still alive as well. "Many reports" means fuck all. Give some proof, then we'll talk.

#4: Saddam almost certainly had nothing to do with 9/11, neither directly nor indirectly. Even your own government reported on that. He and the fundamentalists were basically enemies. The only reason they sometimes got along in words is that they both hated the US. Saddam, however, would never have attacked the US, because he knew his reign would end about 12 hours after the attack.
There are many types of "anti-western", and they don't all get along.

#5: 9/11 made the US even more active in the middle east, yes. Your point with that is?
Besides, it doesn't change the fact that the US were already very present, with huge loads of (military) aid to both Israel and Turkey.

Ok, you say you want intellectual rebuttals. I assume you're not serious, but here it goes. Please, read what I'm about to wr<!f>ite and think about what I'm saying instead of thinking about how you're going to come back to it to continue convincing yourself that you're right and I'm wrong. I promise to give your response the same.

On September 11th, Saudi Citizens trained and paid for by Osama Bin Laden killed 3000 people. After the first plane hit, Bush went into a children's classroom to read a book. After they told him the 2nd plane hit, he sat their with a smile on his face, and read the story. He could have been scrambling planes, or at least been somewhere where he could have done that if need, seeing as he's the ONLY MAN IN AMERICA who is authorized to give the command to shoot down American civilians. Anyone who has worked in an air traffic control tower or been in the air force knows the other 3 planes should have been shot down. When everyone was banned from flying after 9/11, he rounded up all the Bin Laden relatives and Saudi Royals and flew them out of the country, even though the FBI wanted to question them. Turns out Bush has been doing business with them for years. Now, I understand that most republicans are not capable of admitting anything negative about Bush, but these are all facts that the administration does not deny. These are facts everyone should know, and any one of them should be an impeachable offense, but the media would rather talk about gay marriage and other distraction issues. Certainly Republicans will retort with mindless rambling about the Saudi's being good, Osama being the only bad apple in the family, etc. The truth is as recently as last year BOTH were found funding terrorism though a Washington based charity. The terrorist training camps continue to flourish, yet Bush has never mentioned them, and actually pulled troops out of the country.

Now, assuming you haven't yet switched into right wing defense mode and started writing something about a tin foil hat or my post being to long, you'll be asking yourself, why the fuck would they let 9/11 happen and then not catch the killers? Well, for the answer to this I'll refer you to the neo conservative report entitled "Rebuilding America's Defenses". If you don't know, the Neo Conservatives are a group of people who believe that America should control the entire world, and to do whatever it takes to ensure that no other nation becomes a competing super power. In the Reagan and Bush administrations, they were considered hardliners, they were there with their views but no one planned on following them, people had the common sense to realize that their goals were unattainable and pointless. Then comes Bush and his Vice President, king of the neo cons mr. Dick Cheney. Once they get in power, they fill other key positions with prominent neo cons, including Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, and Richard Perle. They have policies about nearly every foreign policy issue, which always follow the same line of America controlling every nation's economy and natural resources.

You can read all about them on their own website http://www.newamericancentury.org,,,/ (remove 3 commas from url). I suggest starting in "Publications and Reports" - "Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century". I'm sorry, but if you're going to vote for Bush, or push your views on the war, you really don't have enough information without having read at least this one report.

Among many other things they talk all about Iraq, how whatever nation gets their oil could become a super power. It also talks about fighting multiple simultaneous "theater wars" to prove American dominance. Notice George Bush referred to Iraq as a "theater in the war on terror" during his speech. The report also talks about creating the ballistic missile defense program, creating new and more powerful nukes, both things Bush has started. They're trying to start another cold war, which is why they don't want to get Bin Laden or any real threats to America.

In this report, they realize that it will take decades to convince the American people to buy this imperialism, unless of corse, they had September 11th to exploit.

"Further, the process of transformation even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor".

This administration did nothing to stop the WTC attacks, and have since exploited the sympathy and fear of the American people so they don't question their hardline agenda. They didn't tell you before they went into Iraq that it was to help the Iraqi people or provide stability in the middle east or whatever shit they're saying now, no, they say Iraq was responsible for 9/11, and that Iraq has WMD. If you think Bush and Cheney care about middle east democracy, tell me what dictator is ruling Iraq 5 years from now.

Their plan is to have never ending war and poverty. Their plan is to start the draft in June 2005. Their plan is to use fear and religion as tools to exploit the goodness of the American people, so they can fulfill their insane plot and give huge no bid war contracts to themselves and their friends.

Please stop allowing Fox and other news stations to summarize the news for you. Do a little reading a research for yourself. When TV tells you about something that you find interesting, something that will be affecting your opinions, go online and read the full story. You're comparing this war to WWII, which is laughable to most rational thinking people. The comparisons end at the # of people killed on US soil. Unfortunetly because of Bush's lack of doing anything to fight the real terrorists, more likely than not there will be another tragic event in the US, which Cheney will then use to go into Iran, Syria, or one of the other countries on his hit list. Everything I've said in this post comes directly from the mouths of Dick Cheney and the neo cons, or from the Sept 11 hearings. The full hearings, not the 8 minute clips they show on TV.

Now, logically, looking at all this should raise an eyebrow. The truth is, we're going to have people like 12clicks and netrodent in this thread with half ass responses tha Fox and talk radio have trained them to say when they here something that proves them wrong. "You're lying", "You're a moron", and "it was all Clinton's fault" are three that I'm predicting. They argue because they don't believe anything besides the official whitehouse story... to look at reality would be to admit they were wrong. I understand not wanting to admit mistakes, I understand years if not decades of believing one thing, I understand pressure to not disappoint parents, I understand all the reasons people make up excuses not to even try to look for the truth. It's a lot nicer to live in a world where you're always right, always doing the right thing, and always safe. Too bad that isn't reality.

You're being told that to be a conservative is to support Bush and the war machine, but that's simply not true. You're being told that to question it is to be unpatriotic and means you don't support the troops, that couldn't be further from the truth. Anyone who looks at the situation without bias can easily see what's going on. Why continue to belive and support an administration that has been proven to have lied to you over and over again?

there's no sense for one to go to war
whichever side you're fighting for you're fool and being used
it's age of slavery again it's just some of you are not seeing it yet

if you'd go to war you'd find yourself having more respect for a poor guy on the other side than for people that've put you in trench

there are rich and poor
and there are good and bad
and that's all

God bless you all :)

I agree with you about the backwards way the US is supporting their troops, but it's not the peoples fault. The government is cutting taxes, which has never been done during wartime by any country in recorded history, and has been saying shit like "don't change your lifestyle or buying habits, or else the terrorists win". Meanwhile they pull restrictions off gas consumption so every redneck with a small penis is driving a god damn Hemi, an engine common sense made illegal in the 70's. This is the exact opposite of what to do during a war, as I'm sure your Grandfather has told you.

I guess so is invading the wrong country, so everything's about on par with these clowns.

The only problem I really have with your post is the premise for it:

"We are in Iraq simply because we felt it our wordly duty to rid a tyrannical man of power."


1)No we're not. Remember the wmds, terrorists, etc we were told about that existed there?

2)That's not what the Prez told the world and the U.S. citizens before the war started as the reason FOR going to war.

It's as if people try to forget everything that's not on TV right now. :helpme

bush claimed to go war to fight the war on terror and Al-Qaeda
when Sadam was in power there was no Al-Qaeda in iraq he hated Al-Qaeda now there are breed of every terror organization in Iraq

No, I prefer to laugh at liberal halfwits like yourself who don't have a clue.
Yes child, when someone points out your bullshit, they were "trained by FOX and talk radio"

Simple statements from simple fucks like yourself are only worthy of half ass responses.
The intellect behind the above post, while being small, is laughable.:1orglaugh

dude way too long to read

war is different today than in the past because of media....nothing more.

the media tries to swing you this way and that, but the thing is...they show you "some" of the real truth.

people don't back the president like they did in wars past, because they know....hey, maybe we shouldn't be over there, maybe we're the ones in the wrong, etc.

people know more than ever what's "kind of" going on, so more people are going to disagree, obviously.

wow, wow, wow. Calm down there. If it's your worldy duty to rid a tyrannical man of power then why the hell are you supporting so many tyrants? And why are you not doing anything about other tyrants who are much worst?
Are you telling me that you worry about Iraqis more than I do?

They were able to do it because there's nothing easier than terror. If you decide to go out and run over a few people with your car, you'd be able to kill quite a few people before going down. Doesn't take a genius to create terror.
The intel was wrong? They don't know the meaning of proof? The "useless" UN was able to determine that the Nigerian hahahahahahahaha about Saddam acquiring nuclear material was fake within a day. Apparently the US intelligence is not smarter than a bunch of UN people who don't work in the intelligence field? I mean please.

Same situation? How can it be same situation? First off it was Germany who declared war on the US, secondly Hitler was actually a threat and a big tyrant. Did the US choose to go after a tyrant in some third world country instead?
Currently the big tyrant and the big threat is Kim Jong Il. Obviously the US government chooses to appease and negotiate with him. Why? Because he's actually a threat and is currently developping missiles that can reach the US.

Read about the new american century.

There are plenty of countries out there asking for help. Go ahead, have your fun, help out as much as you can. There's no shortage. Why ignore those who ask for help?

Tool.

President Bush has done virtually nothing to show the American people that he has the best interest of this country foremost in his agenda.

He is a very unimpressive president who got in office through crooked means right from the git-go. Most all of his efforts seem to be geared towards the things HE wants, not what the people want.

Bush can't even testify before the 9/11 Commission unless Uncle Cheney is there to hold his hand to make sure he doesn't blurt out the truth. And the truth is: BUSH LIED TO START AN UNNECESSARY WAR!

George Bush is a war criminal, and needs to be stopped, swiftly. The longer he stays in office, the more damage he will do to our legacy as a great nation. Please get him out, now!!

We need to get Bush out before it is to late. And i do believe he and his imps will plan to place WMD in Iraq to cover up his lie and say they found it before the election time.I don't trust him at all!

Love and respect are soilders yes.
Respect are president HELL NO!

I can't be bothered looking to see who used this quote as some "defense" for Bush...

However the actual quote comes from a man who chose, for his own egotisical reasons to be a "leader" of substance in the world and acted in direct opposition to the population he was supposed to be "serving".

Blair is not a stupid man, but will not be playing any "leader" on the international stage much longer.

Bush... hell.. dunno what to say - He is certainly not *any* great leader. He is probably the worst leader of any western country since the downfall of Adolf Hitler. Nobody could have done a better job of destruction within the US, harm to many others abroad and reduced the credibility of the US to zero...

What is the Matrix?

I would love to see you prove any point I made above to be wrong. Just because you can't wrap your head around the truth, that Iraq was better off before than it is now, doesn't make you right.

I'm impressed. An almost intelligent thread based on almost facts on GFY.

Ok, first. Why is it that so many choose to believe what the war was about instead of believing in WHAT the war was about. There is no choice in it. It is for reason and one reason only people. I have never heard so many different reasons as to why a war was started. It seems the laid back and pathetically shallow liberals can't decide on this issue. Was it a war for oil or was it over WMD's or was it so Bush Jr. could vindicate Bush Sr.? Even the uptight and anal conservatives are confused why the war happened. This disturbs me.

It is simple and I will explain it to you. A long time ago the UN told Iraq that it had to do certain things. For about 15 years it didn't do anything until threatened with force. The UN would show up to inspect some stuff. Saddam would say got hell. The UN would say they were going to bomb him. Saddam would say go to hell again. The UN would tell Saddam, we mean it this time; we will have the US start bombing you again. Saddam would say, ok, ok, I'm sorry, I kid, it was all just a misunderstanding. This went on year after year. Nothing got done about it during Clinton?s time in office because he was too busy getting hummers in the Oval Office and the media was too busy giving a shit that he was too busy getting hummers.

So Bush Jr. gets in to office and with in a few months gets hit with something the US hasn't really seen since we spanked the British and told them to get the fuck out. An attack on US soil. A devastating one. So bush goes on the war path.

But then something happens. Saddam starts acting up again. The UN as usual is failing to do anything about it and Bush decides that enough is enough. He decides to do something about it.

That war was because Saddam was failing to follow the UN resolutions. That is the only reason. No one ever said that the war is about WMD's or Oil. What the administration has said many times is that Saddam has not accounted for all the things he should have. In over 15 years that dumbfuck has done nothing but stall and stall. He couldn't conclusively prove in 15 years that he wasn't hiding anything? Please, if you believe that he wasn?t hiding something you're a dumbfuck and should stop breeding.

Now what has happened is that people decided to believe that Saddam was threat because he could have WMD's. The government was very open about that. But they haven't found any yet so now everyone is upset. And then it comes out that there was some miss information about the WMD's and it came from the CIA not the White House and yet now Bush is a lair? Jesus Christ you are some dumb hypocritical fuckers.

Look I don't like Bush. I think he's born again christian wako but I fail to see where it is that lied? And moron in this thread said he's lied millions of times. Is that even humanly possible to lie millions of times. God I would think just to tell one million lies would take decades of lying non stop 24/7 and doing nothing else not even eating or sleeping.

If I walk up to my friend Sam and tell him that I am going to go kick Bills ass because Bill promised to do some stuff and never did than that is the reason why I am doing it. End of story. However, if Sam doesn't want me to kick Bills ass and I might try to convince that it's a good idea for me to do it. I might tell him that Bill was planning to kick Sam's ass so actually I am doing him a favor. Or might bring up some other reason to make him go along with me. But none of those fucking reason have anything to do with why I am going to kick Bills ass. Do you fucking morons get that? Can you even comprehend the difference?

And all this bullshit about oil. Oh it was a war for oil, people are dying for oil. No they're not. They said that shit in '91. Did we take the oil? No we didn't. We've been running the damn country now for almost a year. Gee do you think maybe we could have taken a few barrels? Do you think gas would be at its fucking highest prices ever? Wake up you dumb fucking morons.

There is no conspiracy for oil. The war wasn't over WMD's. It was over Saddam not following the guidelines set fourth by the UN. And before some fuckin retard here goes and say's, "But the UN didn?t sanction the war, they didn't support the war. It wasn't the US's responsibility." Ok again, wake up. Who in the hell pays the salary for everyone in the UN. The US. We flip the damn bill for pretty much the whole thing. And why do you think those resolutions were written in the first place? Because the US went over kicked Saddam's ass and we wanted to make sure he would never be a threat again. So of course Bush is gonna go after him. His country was just shit on and then Saddam is gonna pull his crybaby shit again? No, the time had come to take action. It was obvious the UN didn't give a shit.

But none of this really matters cause here's what's gonna happen. Maybe in a day or two or maybe even in a few more months, we are going to some WMD's or the tools in which they are made in Iraq than shortly after that we are going to find Osama Bin Dipshit. Bush's support is gonna go through the roof and he is gonna win in November.

The liberals are gonna cry that it was all a big plan. And Bush is gonna look at them and say, "Didn't I tell you we could catch him? Didn't I tell you that Saddam had the tools to make WMD's" It's not a conspiracy folks. It just gonna be amazingly good timing

And again I do not support Bush. He's an idiot. I don't support John Kerry because he is a liar and a coward. I'm just tellin ya the way it is. Believe me, don't believe me, I don't really care. I just had to comment after reading so many posts of people trying really hard to sound smart and so many of you doing a good job at sounding smart but as for having any kind of philosophical understanding of the events that have happened. Well it's just frightening knowing that some of you vote.

I am amazed ( and granted, in a bit of a twitchy mood today ) how much time and effort was spent on this thread. You all could be out doing something much more productive, like farming poison ivy instead of posting these 'intellectual rebuttals' :2 cents:

Really Bush does a much better job at convincing everyone this is the right path, and that says a lot!

You are right. I just vented cause I needed a break from work. :) And who told you about my poison ivy farm?

qouteing AbulletAwayGoneBad "No one ever said that the war is about WMD's or Oil"

I think me and 4 billion other people disagree with you. You need to go and listen to his speech.



"John Kerry because he is a liar and a coward"


Hum what did kerry lie about? Did you know kerry has 4 purple hearts?

Heuh? Everyone thought that the gas price would be higher. Are you a socialist or something? It's about big corporations making money, not about you. Those naïve commies :)

That's up to the security council to decide, not to the US alone. So you're saying that from now on the US is gonna impose upon others the guidelines set fourth by the UN? Oh wait, that's not what they're doing. Find another excuse.

Yeah sure :) Even if you would found a thousand nukes in Iraq that'll only prove that Saddam is no threat since he didn't use them even while his country was invaded.

So when the inspectors cannot find anything by the deadline set in the UN resolution, the US goes to war. Not because of evidence but because of a lack of it and a ton of publicised suspicion and heresay.

I think people can be excused for pointing out the hypocrisy involved in this be it right or wrong in the long-run.

Everyone has their opinion, the sheep on the right and the looney liberal left it doesnt make either opinion true but that's not what opinions are about.

You pontificate in length about WHY the U.S. went to war in Iraq and chastise those for not posting the REAL reason. The bottom line (as you put it) for war was:"That war was because Saddam was failing to follow the UN resolutions. That is the only reason."

'scuse me while I chuckle a bit..cuz I think it's my turn to say "SAY WHAT?"

Please show me the U.N. resolution that INSTRUCTED the United States to invade Iraq because of it's failure to follow U.N. resolutions.

Umm..and I know people love to re-hahahahaha history on a constant basis..but didn't the U.S. say "Fuck it..we'll never get it approved at the U.N." and PASSED on a Security Council vote on war?!?

BTW

Even if the war was about oil, it wouldn't be about making prices cheaper at the pump. Too many of you idiots can't grasp that.

Centurion:

You just hit that nail on the head!

In a mangle of "words" and "innuendo" from the Whitehouse I heard "Iraq is an imminent threat to the US" and all sorts of stuff...

I can't think of *any* country, apart from those with another agenda, that would have "chosen" to go into a war with *anyone* while they were not being attacked.

100% correct in that it is not the job of the US to be the "bomb button presser" for the international community. If other countries started behaving like that, it would end up sheer hell.

I have no doubt it is time for "justice" on this to take place and I would like to see some truths exposed and prosecutions.

Well I didn't make my post because thought you and 4 billion people had a clue.

And what has he lied about? Just about every thing he says. Maybe learning a little about the man and his purple hearts from other than what he would have you believe.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...le.asp?ID=5468 Oh, ya he's a hero, please. I wonder what other things you think are true that aren't.

AbulletAwayGoneBad:

Why is anyone talking about John Kerry??? He is not the President of the US.

The "President of the US" has far more proven problems than some, as the propaganda goes, "Senator from Massachusetts".

It was Bush who has been allegedly "leading" the US - *anyone* or any animal can conduct themselves with more responsibility and honor than this thing. Shall I send my parrot along for the next presidental challenge, - he talks good and has "some" sense.

If you think any of this has to do with "politics" or political leanings - it hasn't. The time for any consideration to politics has passed - this current situation supercedes any of that.

It's more like a time for criminal prosecutions...

Conversley...please show me the UN resolution instructing the United States not to invade Iraq...the proposal of same...or the proposal of a censure.

Only in your twisted, sick fucking dreams...wee little Webby.

Hello loser.

You've been drinking again haven't you? I can tell by your post.
It's more idiotic than usual. :1orglaugh

good point, I agree. But you gotta make exclusions...
for me invasion would be alright, if there is a potential threat of this country to one or more countries, like nuclear weapons, long range missiles etc.

Show me.

I can't see the U.S going into China anytime soon, it'll be interesting to see what happens in Iran and Syria.

ok asshat. I don't watch fox or listen to talk radio.

there, I proved you're a liar in the first two seconds of thinking about it.
:1orglaugh

LOL ,, so simplistic....

BTW, I tought it was to protect the USA from an " imminent" threat or the use of WMD....

Now, it is the glorified removal of a unfriendly dictator to be replaved by a friendly one or association... Saudia Arabia is a dictature ( a fucking Kingdom, where women are worth less than cattle) and I don't hear you guys going all out to correct that... and they have a fucking ton of oil...

Americans have lost focus of this war and yes are oppressing that poulation.
If not, then get the fuck out and let them deal with their own society.

:2 cents:

?Defeating an enemy on the battlefield and winning a war are rarely synonymous. Winning a war calls for more than defeating one?s enemy in battle.? He recalled that, in 1975, when Harry G. Summers, an Army colonel who later wrote a history of the Vietnam War, told a North Vietnamese colonel, ?You never defeated us on the battlefield,? the colonel replied, ?That may be so, but it is also irrelevant.?

You used to be " readable" ... Now you are a complete idiot....

Show me a " UN resolution" that prohibits me from kicking your ass to the nearest bar....