Do We Really Own Our Domains? - GoFuckYourself.com

Trend · 06-09-2010, 09:22 PM

I was discussing this the other day with a friend who works for a large tech company and he raised an intriguing question. If you only have rights to the domain as long as you are paying the annual fee then do you really own the domain or are you simply leasing it?

Since we recently purchased a few domains in the 3-5k range it got me thinking...

Thoughts?

mozadek · 06-09-2010, 09:32 PM

The Jews own them.

LeRoy · 06-09-2010, 09:35 PM

There are some terms that can get taken from you.

They'll wait till you build a little traffic and back links. Then send you a nice little letter. lol

fatfoo · 06-09-2010, 09:36 PM

That's like asking if you rent it, do you own it?

Yes, you own it (for the temporary time that you rent it).

Ron Bennett · 06-09-2010, 09:41 PM

You "own" it, but ownership is not absolute. It's definitely not a lease.

Below is a copy and paste of my reply regarding this same topic on NamePros last year.
http://www.namepros.com/domain-name-...ou-wanted.html

In my view, and that of some U.S. courts, domains are property - hence, you own the domain name...

Think of renewal fees as akin to property tax. Don't pay the renewal, and just like with physical property, one can lose the domain.

Some argue that renewal fees mean that one never truly owns the domain. Well, in a matter of speaking no one, other than governments, own much of anything ... even one's body, in many jurisdictions, is not truly theirs ... ie. laws against committing suicide as well as controls on the sale of body parts, such as kidneys, etc.

One is, in effect, granted a conditional right (ie. paying renewal fees along with other conditions, such as how it's utilized), to a particular domain name by the registry, on behalf of a government entity - registries don't own TLDs, ICANN (which is part of the U.S. Dept of Commerce) "owns" gTLDs while ccTLDs are "owned" by their corresponding governments; ie. TV is owned by the nation of Tuvalu.

Much in the same way that physical property, ultimately, is truly owned by governments. They can, and most often do, dictate how one uses property, such as through zoning, building codes, etc. And can take control of the property anytime, potentially even without offering adequate compensation, if they so choose and are determined enough; eminent domain.

Bottom line, in my view, one basically "owns" a domain name to roughly the same extent one can "own" a piece of land. Ownership is not absolute; better to think of it as the "control" of something for an indeterminate period of time, which is different than a lease.

Ron

Trend · 06-09-2010, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Bennett

You "own" it, but ownership is not absolute. It's definitely not a lease.

Below is a copy and paste of my reply regarding this same topic on NamePros last year.
http://www.namepros.com/domain-name-...ou-wanted.html

In my view, and that of some U.S. courts, domains are property - hence, you own the domain name...

Think of renewal fees as akin to property tax. Don't pay the renewal, and just like with physical property, one can lose the domain.

Some argue that renewal fees mean that one never truly owns the domain. Well, in a matter of speaking no one, other than governments, own much of anything ... even one's body, in many jurisdictions, is not truly theirs ... ie. laws against committing suicide as well as controls on the sale of body parts, such as kidneys, etc.

One is, in effect, granted a conditional right (ie. paying renewal fees along with other conditions, such as how it's utilized), to a particular domain name by the registry, on behalf of a government entity - registries don't own TLDs, ICANN (which is part of the U.S. Dept of Commerce) "owns" gTLDs while ccTLDs are "owned" by their corresponding governments; ie. TV is owned by the nation of Tuvalu.

Much in the same way that physical property, ultimately, is truly owned by governments. They can, and most often do, dictate how one uses property, such as through zoning, building codes, etc. And can take control of the property anytime, potentially even without offering adequate compensation, if they so choose and are determined enough; eminent domain.

Bottom line, in my view, one basically "owns" a domain name to roughly the same extent one can "own" a piece of land. Ownership is not absolute; better to think of it as the "control" of something for an indeterminate period of time, which is different than a lease.

Ron

Thanks for the reply

Raises interesting questions. What happens if you register a domain and receive a trademark on the domain. The domain lapses ( dumb I know but it happens ) and someone else snaps it up. Are they restricted from using the domain due to the trademark?

And what about liens? Can someone put a lien against your domain portfolio if you can lose the domain by simply failing to renew?

Hotrocket · 06-09-2010, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trend

What happens if you register a domain and receive a trademark on the domain. The domain lapses ( dumb I know but it happens ) and someone else snaps it up. Are they restricted from using the domain due to the trademark?

while not exactly as you posed the question, this rather timely story posted on xbiz a cpl days ago deals with a very similar situation and may shed some light on the possible outcome.
http://www.xbiz.com/news/121550

Domain Diva · 06-09-2010, 11:43 PM

My view is its a 50/50 call ....you sort of own it and you sort of lease it ....I guess many will have different views.

PornMD · 06-09-2010, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Bennett

You "own" it, but ownership is not absolute. It's definitely not a lease.

Below is a copy and paste of my reply regarding this same topic on NamePros last year.
http://www.namepros.com/domain-name-...ou-wanted.html

In my view, and that of some U.S. courts, domains are property - hence, you own the domain name...

Think of renewal fees as akin to property tax. Don't pay the renewal, and just like with physical property, one can lose the domain.

Some argue that renewal fees mean that one never truly owns the domain. Well, in a matter of speaking no one, other than governments, own much of anything ... even one's body, in many jurisdictions, is not truly theirs ... ie. laws against committing suicide as well as controls on the sale of body parts, such as kidneys, etc.

One is, in effect, granted a conditional right (ie. paying renewal fees along with other conditions, such as how it's utilized), to a particular domain name by the registry, on behalf of a government entity - registries don't own TLDs, ICANN (which is part of the U.S. Dept of Commerce) "owns" gTLDs while ccTLDs are "owned" by their corresponding governments; ie. TV is owned by the nation of Tuvalu.

Much in the same way that physical property, ultimately, is truly owned by governments. They can, and most often do, dictate how one uses property, such as through zoning, building codes, etc. And can take control of the property anytime, potentially even without offering adequate compensation, if they so choose and are determined enough; eminent domain.

Bottom line, in my view, one basically "owns" a domain name to roughly the same extent one can "own" a piece of land. Ownership is not absolute; better to think of it as the "control" of something for an indeterminate period of time, which is different than a lease.

Ron

Pretty much correct.

Dirty Dane · 06-10-2010, 02:43 AM

I think the right word is reservation.

You reserve a "first name" which have to comply with some set of rules and you choose a common "last name" (extension) which have to comply with another set of rules. The combination makes it unique and thereby reserved for you.
Some names, like trademarks and governmental names are already reserved, even if they are not registered or in use.

In the beginning, domains were mostly free for reservation, then administration was monetized. The fee doesn't mean it's leased, but just the cost of registration and administration. Plus some profit

ArsewithClass · 06-10-2010, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trend

I was discussing this the other day with a friend who works for a large tech company and he raised an intriguing question. If you only have rights to the domain as long as you are paying the annual fee then do you really own the domain or are you simply leasing it?

Since we recently purchased a few domains in the 3-5k range it got me thinking...

Thoughts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatfoo

That's like asking if you rent it, do you own it?

Yes, you own it (for the temporary time that you rent it).

It certainly is not rented as it is one off payments for a period of time, I would have said it is more similar to leasing it, however, Ron is correct, you own it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Bennett

You "own" it, but ownership is not absolute. It's definitely not a lease.

Below is a copy and paste of my reply regarding this same topic on NamePros last year.
http://www.namepros.com/domain-name-...ou-wanted.html

In my view, and that of some U.S. courts, domains are property - hence, you own the domain name...

Think of renewal fees as akin to property tax. Don't pay the renewal, and just like with physical property, one can lose the domain.

Some argue that renewal fees mean that one never truly owns the domain. Well, in a matter of speaking no one, other than governments, own much of anything ... even one's body, in many jurisdictions, is not truly theirs ... ie. laws against committing suicide as well as controls on the sale of body parts, such as kidneys, etc.

One is, in effect, granted a conditional right (ie. paying renewal fees along with other conditions, such as how it's utilized), to a particular domain name by the registry, on behalf of a government entity - registries don't own TLDs, ICANN (which is part of the U.S. Dept of Commerce) "owns" gTLDs while ccTLDs are "owned" by their corresponding governments; ie. TV is owned by the nation of Tuvalu.

Much in the same way that physical property, ultimately, is truly owned by governments. They can, and most often do, dictate how one uses property, such as through zoning, building codes, etc. And can take control of the property anytime, potentially even without offering adequate compensation, if they so choose and are determined enough; eminent domain.

Bottom line, in my view, one basically "owns" a domain name to roughly the same extent one can "own" a piece of land. Ownership is not absolute; better to think of it as the "control" of something for an indeterminate period of time, which is different than a lease.

Ron

If you own the lease to a building you still own it, but it is for a small amount of time, sometimes 10yrs, sometimes 100yrs. You still have rent to pay when it is leased. Owning something, there is no extra to pay for once the item or property has been paid for..
It is certainly short term ownership with right to purchase term & term again there after.

RummyBoy · 06-10-2010, 03:13 AM

If you ask a lawyer about it.... they will tell you that you dont have ownership rights.

rowan · 06-10-2010, 03:59 AM

Trademarks aren't the only issue. If your registrar decides to play net cop they can suspend your domain and effectively shut you down. Godaddy is infamous for doing this, including charging a penalty fee to get your domain back. Moniker threatens the domain owner with removal of privacy if they don't address the complaint.

Moniker has suspended one of my domains (with NO notice - I discovered by accident), and done the "we will reveal your info" threat on another.

Trend · 06-10-2010, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrocket

while not exactly as you posed the question, this rather timely story posted on xbiz a cpl days ago deals with a very similar situation and may shed some light on the possible outcome.
http://www.xbiz.com/news/121550

Interesting case. Thanks, I had not seen that.

So the trademark seems to trump "ownership"

I didn't ask this question with a bunch of legal questions in mind but after reading some of these replies, the legal implications of "ownership" , "leasing" or some variation are staggering.

Trend · 06-10-2010, 05:58 AM

I found this over at Domain Name News.

Property, Ownership, Lease, Legal issues..... I wish my buddy had not brought up the question

But damn, these are important questions with crazy implications.

bloggerz · 06-10-2010, 05:59 AM

well pay the annual fee, have correct whois info and you are all set

Fiddler · 06-10-2010, 08:17 AM

Way I see it is you own it as long as you keep the fees going to keep it running. The fees just cover the paperwork (admin) for the domain registrars and keepers.

Oracle Porn · 06-10-2010, 08:23 AM

lets ask the owner of free6.com what he thinks....

Trend · 06-10-2010, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oracle Porn

lets ask the owner of free6.com what he thinks....

Forgive my ignorance .. what happened with free6 ?

I just looked over the Network Solutions v. Umbro case and the Virginia Appellate Court ruled that domains are not "owned" really interesting ruling on that case:

"The Virginia Supreme Court reversed the lower court's decision, which held that domain names were garnishable. The supreme court held that the domain name is not subject to garnishment because the registrant of the domain name only gets rights in a service agreement, not the domain name itself. "

06-09-2010, 09:22 PM	#1
Trend Confirmed User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Mexico and Midwest Posts: 612	Do We Really Own Our Domains? I was discussing this the other day with a friend who works for a large tech company and he raised an intriguing question. If you only have rights to the domain as long as you are paying the annual fee then do you really own the domain or are you simply leasing it? Since we recently purchased a few domains in the 3-5k range it got me thinking... Thoughts?

06-09-2010, 09:35 PM	#3
LeRoy Porn Pusher Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: It's a dry heat Posts: 13,337	There are some terms that can get taken from you. They'll wait till you build a little traffic and back links. Then send you a nice little letter. lol __________________ JAPANESE CAMS AND CONTENT SITES Skype - leroy.rowland2

06-09-2010, 09:36 PM	#4
fatfoo ICQ:649699063 Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 27,763	That's like asking if you rent it, do you own it? Yes, you own it (for the temporary time that you rent it). __________________ Send me an email: [email protected] Last edited by fatfoo; 06-09-2010 at 09:37 PM..

06-09-2010, 09:41 PM	#5
Ron Bennett Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,653	You "own" it, but ownership is not absolute. It's definitely not a lease. Below is a copy and paste of my reply regarding this same topic on NamePros last year. http://www.namepros.com/domain-name-...ou-wanted.html In my view, and that of some U.S. courts, domains are property - hence, you own the domain name... Think of renewal fees as akin to property tax. Don't pay the renewal, and just like with physical property, one can lose the domain. Some argue that renewal fees mean that one never truly owns the domain. Well, in a matter of speaking no one, other than governments, own much of anything ... even one's body, in many jurisdictions, is not truly theirs ... ie. laws against committing suicide as well as controls on the sale of body parts, such as kidneys, etc. One is, in effect, granted a conditional right (ie. paying renewal fees along with other conditions, such as how it's utilized), to a particular domain name by the registry, on behalf of a government entity - registries don't own TLDs, ICANN (which is part of the U.S. Dept of Commerce) "owns" gTLDs while ccTLDs are "owned" by their corresponding governments; ie. TV is owned by the nation of Tuvalu. Much in the same way that physical property, ultimately, is truly owned by governments. They can, and most often do, dictate how one uses property, such as through zoning, building codes, etc. And can take control of the property anytime, potentially even without offering adequate compensation, if they so choose and are determined enough; eminent domain. Bottom line, in my view, one basically "owns" a domain name to roughly the same extent one can "own" a piece of land. Ownership is not absolute; better to think of it as the "control" of something for an indeterminate period of time, which is different than a lease. Ron __________________ Domagon - Website Management and Domain Name Sales

06-09-2010, 11:43 PM	#8
Domain Diva Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: UK/USA/Canada ICQ : 494318698 Email:[email protected] Posts: 10,180	My view is its a 50/50 call ....you sort of own it and you sort of lease it ....I guess many will have different views. __________________ Cams-Tube-Dating Domains Available At Trade Prices ! Domains For Sale ICQ:494318698

06-09-2010, 09:32 PM	#2
mozadek Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,325	The Jews own them.

06-10-2010, 02:43 AM	#10
Dirty Dane Sick Fuck Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: www Posts: 9,491	I think the right word is reservation. You reserve a "first name" which have to comply with some set of rules and you choose a common "last name" (extension) which have to comply with another set of rules. The combination makes it unique and thereby reserved for you. Some names, like trademarks and governmental names are already reserved, even if they are not registered or in use. In the beginning, domains were mostly free for reservation, then administration was monetized. The fee doesn't mean it's leased, but just the cost of registration and administration. Plus some profit

06-10-2010, 03:13 AM	#12
RummyBoy Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 2,157	If you ask a lawyer about it.... they will tell you that you dont have ownership rights.

06-10-2010, 03:59 AM	#13
rowan Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 17,393	Trademarks aren't the only issue. If your registrar decides to play net cop they can suspend your domain and effectively shut you down. Godaddy is infamous for doing this, including charging a penalty fee to get your domain back. Moniker threatens the domain owner with removal of privacy if they don't address the complaint. Moniker has suspended one of my domains (with NO notice - I discovered by accident), and done the "we will reveal your info" threat on another.

06-10-2010, 05:58 AM	#15
Trend Confirmed User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Mexico and Midwest Posts: 612	I found this over at Domain Name News. Property, Ownership, Lease, Legal issues..... I wish my buddy had not brought up the question But damn, these are important questions with crazy implications.

06-10-2010, 05:59 AM	#16
bloggerz Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 16,256	well pay the annual fee, have correct whois info and you are all set __________________ I SELL ADULT BACKLINKS! Email: eroticweb>gmail SKYPE: gfybloggerz $$$$$ MAKE HUGE MONEY IN CAMS - CLICK HERE $$$$$

06-10-2010, 08:17 AM	#17
Fiddler Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 835	Way I see it is you own it as long as you keep the fees going to keep it running. The fees just cover the paperwork (admin) for the domain registrars and keepers.

06-10-2010, 08:23 AM	#18
Oracle Porn Affiliate Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Icq: 94-399-723 Posts: 24,433	lets ask the owner of free6.com what he thinks.... __________________