200 new tube sites

Exactly .. good analogy

Either adapt to the current market conditions, changes in surfing behaviour, and what products they want, or cling to past glory and be replaced by people who can adapt.

Not everyone is hurting, after we made radical changes to our traffic models things have been going from strength to strength, and income is back on the up. Instead of crying on the boards all day actually take proactive steps to improve your product/marketing/methods.

Since tubes took over traffic from tgps and gave away the one commodity paysites owned and the surfer wanted, (videos) ratios across the board have progressively gotten worse from indeed about summer of 06.

Now if ya own an orig tube and ya have lotsa traffic GREAT. I want to be you. No hard feelings. I will do fucking anything to make an honest buck but your biz model of giving away wreaked havok on ratios across the board in porn.

And please quit talking about "evolving".

I bought another tube script the other day. Whoopty doo. I "evolved".

It isn't about evolving. It is the fact that you need way more traffic now days to get the same $$$.

There is only so much traffic and not all tubes are going to be big. The small ones with their shitty ctr's will make less than 10 text links on a white page.

I wonder what people you know that would actually listen to you to comment like that on a simple question i asked. What is it you do again?

But go on, rant some more, i guess your just frustrated and want to relieve some anger.

surprised it took until the bottom of the 4th page for the "adapt or die" quote

Very true. But it doesn't change the fact that stolen content put up in all it's glory for free pretty much decimates the market place. Especially for some of the bigger companies whom have put so much money into shooting content.

The "adapting" that I'm seeing many companies do is to stop spending money on new stuff and basically circle the wagons relying on dwindling rebills to try to ride it out.

What WE are doing is finding new revenue streams. Paysite sales have hit the ceiling for me. They could of and would of been enormous at this point...but I can't afford to cry about it.

So we "adapt" with making more money with Claudia-Marie on paid camshows. We also have an Iphone app coming out for her. A dozen other things we're doing to NOT have to depend on paysite sales...because despite all the talk, the economy + piracy = sales down across the board for paysites.

I don't think we have more free flowing money in porn...I wish. I do think people can make more money today than ever - it's not harder, it's different.

Globally porn traffic has taken a drop, the tubes don't account for it all. Tubes didn't take the Webmasters.

Then again, I think the mainstream Internet doesn't have as much free flowing money either. Adwords/Adsense comes to mind.

But still tons of money to be made... just not in the same areas as before and it surly doesn't mean tubes are the answer.

Totally true.

I just wish there was some way for affiliates to get a piece of those cam sales and iphone apps too. :upsidedow

"Often imitated, NEVER duplicated"

For a fan base, for years of loyalty, for a long term business... yes. But that doesn't mean, continual growth. The best bands in the world, the best of anything ever.. can't possibly continually grow, even if it does for 100 years though it still still going to have down turns.

On the Internet... If I show people mine first before yours and I satisfy the need... It doesn't make a difference how good yours is. I will win the sale.

Building porn sites or finding a big boob chick crazy enough to do porn is nothing like the skills needed to play guitar like Van Halen does. It takes balls and perversion... not skills.

No because your pretty heavy on the tube bandwagon but that's cool. It's all good. I appreciate your posting your POV. Much respect.

Will you admit that the tube model hurt paysite ratios across the board?

Or else I'm just choosing the wrong sponsors again and again and again. :)

Very interesting point. Maybe the direct links makes all the difference. Hmm

Here is our tube site youngertube.com that was completely fed by tgp/tube type traffic. The site was started from nowhere and only fed traffic by our other tgps. Very little time and effort was put into it. While we are not getting rich off it, it shows that short clips do sell, a tube can be grown out of tube/tgp type traffic, legal content can be used and it was pretty easy to make. The nubiles tube script was used on the script.

http://nubiles.net/tube.jpg

Here is the alexa versus our tgp schoolthumbs.com
http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?&w=40...oolthumbs.com&

Obviously these sites are tiny compared to the big tubes, but the model works.

Adapt isn't simply about adding more billing options, or a iPhone app in a single but big trend, or 12 other things.

That's not really adapting. But still good ideas.

Surfers don't know it's pirated content, they don't care either.

Think of it like... Does she socialize to a point that she befriends people so well it gives her the ability to sell them by showing off a video of her having fun on a boat?

Or maybe.. She coudl do a video on how she is learning business / book software, how to make a video, and talks about the 20 points that relate to a porn owner.. so you can get youtube visitors in a cross niche, not looking for porn, to find porn.. build on a personality, move to one of many 100's of possible social networks and follow you... all so you can sell them again, through a nice smooth sales method that isn't - buy me.

That's adapting..

I'm not supporting tubes or piracy.. they suck, as a content owner, it sucks.

It's more about, it's "not" the tubes.. hell I don't think Piracy "hurts" me.. it just sucks. No, I don't think the tube model, hurt paysite ratios.

Those reasons, I stated above... and so much more. If I could see proof, stats to prove it, some real bit if info that wasn't crushed by 1000 other reasons.. then I would agree.

Ratios slipped for me back in 1998, over 99 and 00, and 01.. sometimes I get lucky and I still convert like mad crazy and most the time I'm testing. Isn't that how it worked for all of us?

not bad for tube site.

adapt or die sends me thru the roof. You cant adapt to theft sorry thats not a hot new business model. The problem with the online adult industry is we include lots of people under our umbrella that really dont have the best interests of the industry at heart. We see these people at shows , they get awards, they are loved on the boards and they are helping slowly kill our industry. People are getting desperate giving longer and longer clips away, newsflash they make 50 million dollar movies and it has a 45 sec trailer there is a reason for that it works and if they wont buy with a minute they arent going to buy with ten. I see one of two things happening one eventually governments are going to start saying enough or two the whole generation people have been teaching that porn is free and shouldnt be paid for will grow up and 75% of the people in our biz will be no more. Then people will have the balls to wonder why. its so sad its like that line in the movie casino we had it all and we fucked it all up.

Where I am all the DVD rental places are gone because everyone just downloads the videos...

Tried running non-porn vids on youtube. Lasted about a month. Then the account was deleted by youtube. My guess is a competitor flagged my vids because they talked about the porn site, and all the people commenting on the vids were talking about the pornsite. The vids had hundreds of thousands of views. So yeah, I already did that. I've kept up with all of that...probably one of the reasons we're not dead in the water.

Ahh my last post to you got eaten. IE crashes once in a while.

Anyhow appreciate you giving me an answer. I prob just need to chg up sponsors.

There are still a few progs converting well now. So all is not lost. I just can't figure why prog A converts and prog B doesn't but thats one of the seven mysteries of webmastering. Just trust the stats I guess.

I'm not an expert , nor are any of us (well except for Steve Lightspeed of course) and threads like this are good for us all. :)

Kidding Steve. :)

You need to delete out the porn comments or turn them off.. that's just the bitches of youtube, it sucks.

Let comments happen in a more porn friendly place. You could be on Twitter, post a link to your fans about your nascar test drive, tiny url link to your your blog, that is a clean fan site.. allowing people to comment and you can have a youtube video.

Then, back it up.. using social sites, you can find more porn friendly social sites, so if youtube videos go down, people can still find you.

This is truly like .0000001% of what is going on or is even possible today..

[QUOTE=TheDoc;16064609]
....
You Can't Stay The Same In This Business Or You Will Die!
[QUOTE]

[QUOTE=OldSchoolJim;16064847]
Its because you guys NEVER evolve...
......
[QUOTE]

And there you have it, what did any of the old tgp's do/change in all those years? Thats right, they stick to the same old shit that worked years ago. Never a change a winning team my ass :2 cents:

Ofcourse they are hurting :2 cents:

If traffic is down and less money is flowing in why is the same to make money? I am nitpicking but seriously we agree, you are just getting a kick out of trolling. Keep at it.

:disgust

I wouldn't call what TheDoc is doing "trolling" I'd call it presenting the flip side of the coin and creating interesting debate. I enjoy reading others experience in this business. It's a little different for everybody, and these debates always get my brain engaged and I come up with something to make more money everytime.

Now on the other hand...when Gideon and/or anybody else who doesn't have a clue about marketing or promotion or entertainment comes in here and starts calling people "idiots" and cursing them up and down like a teenager...I'm not so impressed.

That kind of shit is totally uncalled for and the people doing it wouldn't have the balls to do that in real life to a person standing in front of them. THAT is trolling.

What TheDoc is doing is sparking debate. He can do that, and I give his posts a lot of weight. I give trolls and good old gideon no weight to their inexperienced theorizing. lol

Thanks for typing what I didn't feel like. This doc guy is like the guy you just can not shut the fuck up until you punch him in the teeth and break his jaw. You could say the sky was fucking blue and he would most likely disagree.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :thumbsup

I don't even think we've felt the giant-cosmic-ass-fuck the tubes are dealing us. I think we still need to go another 6 months to see the full damage.

I mean, back in the day - you could burn DVDs or whatever, but when you run out of money - no new free porn for you. Nowadays there is a lot of things a person that is hurting would have to go without, such as health care or a job, but it seems the one thing any loser now is entitled to is a buffet of free porn (and a lot of it has been content stolen from my sites) from 1000 different tubes...free porn is the one thing any loser can have all day.

Remeber when porn used to be a luxory and escape?

It's a shame. Ya'll tube lovers are fucking morons.

Common sense should explain that giving away the farm was never a good business model.


I can't figure out why people would attempt to deny the obvious.

Shouldn't need a chart to see it.

Great thread though - best I've seen in a long time. :thumbsup

Interesting thread with some interesting points brought up.. being both a TGP and a LEGAL tube owner, anyone who argues that a TGP stays at the same level of traffic without change is wrong. The reason why FreeOnes has the most stable alexa graph of all the "TGPs" (eventhough freeones isnt a traditional TGP), is because of the insane amount of fresh SE traffic they get day after day after day.. You could have a crap site, but when someone googles "Tera Patrick", and for some reason you are first for that keyword, people will visit your site. So combine that with the fact Freeones isnt a crap site, they are probably one of the few traditional sites that managed to maintain their market position. Do I think that sooner or later the tube sites that are not fully optimized in the monetization department are going to run into issues when the ad budget from the big ad buyers dries up, for sure, and I hope that day comes soon.

The big tube sites have been diagnosed as a problem long ago..

Whats been lacking is a remedy. There needs to be a universal constraint on video content.

Unfortunately - this industry will tear it's self apart before that happens.

How will this evolve in its current form?

An oligopoly of mega sites that dominate content and are capable of reshaping the entire porn industry after crushing competition using tubes as loss leaders.

-or-

A rain of victorious lawsuits that prove to be so costly that nobody in their right minds would dare advertise on, create, a user uploaded tube site.

-or perhaps-

An innovator will come along and bring forth a technology that proves to be an effective content delivery system that end users are thrilled about while properly protecting the content at the same time.

-or perhaps-

..something else.. :1orglaugh

I haven't read the whole thread so this may have been commented on already.

I really don't see how the tubes survive. If every content producer they stole from sued them they wouldn't last long. This seems simple to me?

I don't produce content so it isn't my place to sue but I do control a lot of traffic, and I would NEVER send my traffic to a sponsor who is either giving their content to tubes or not enforcing the copyrights on their content. Why would I send traffic to Brazzers when their content is free on every tube. Just my :2 cents:

This works in every other industry when a new competitor enters the marketplace and steals everything they need to be successful.

I was going to write something in detail, but I got bored, so will keep it short and sweet: no matter what reality is, no matter how you subjectively perceive it, the whole point is what are you going to do about reality. I think tubes will kill themselves, and in a relatively short time. However, for that time, they're here to stay and in the meanwhile they'll kill everyone else. So, what are you going to do about it? Cry? Bitch? Complain on GFY?

At least these thread bring out the creative flow, but to be honest they're getting kinda annoying. Tubes are hell. Granted. Tubes are evil and will kill the business as we know/knew it. Granted. SO?

Seriously, you really, really, REALLY need to think on how to compete. Most medium to big paysites have enough resources to cover the tubes losses and then some more, however, very few people can see 10 inches further.

Just think on the REALLY BIG LIST of things tubes can't offer right now, and build from there. I mean, I can name no less than 50 tools you can use in your paysites that tubes can't do (although they may adapt and do it before you even realize it because you're busy crying and complaining). Bottom line, you can even use tubes for your own profit. Conditions are set for those with 2 connecting braincells (and some resources) to take the lion's part and make even more money than ever.

Just stop crying, the tears aren't letting you see the paths... besides, as much as you cry, you won't solve anything

That's it, I'm tired and going to sleep

PS: To Gideongallery: when you talk about Q ratio you're talking about Tobin's Q ratio formula? because if so, I really don't get how it relates to this issue, unless stock markets plays a role in this situation, which might be, but I don't think this is the specific case.
PS2: since I'm in a good mood, here's a hint: etary groups. Do whatever you want with it

He says now is a great time to enter porn. Tons of money to be made. We are all dumb as it is "not just peachy but green". Come on does anyone think times are better now? the same? or with every fact out there worse?

Tubes are not driving much traffic to paysites. They very rarely even have ads for paysites. If you see them on the boards they are looking for stuff other then paysites. So porn is no longer paying the porn producers in the standard way. So if tubes do not pay porn producers then our whole business model is broken at the moment. I agree that this creates opportunity for some but overall if the pie is shrinking, it is not good for most of us. Simple math.

Buggy whip makers needed to adapt or die and ... most of them died.

I'd like to correct one statement here... :) If there is one sponsor that is very aggressive in protecting their content it IS brazzers. They are one of the only sponsors its actually hard for to find anything longer then 3-5mins on the tubes. On the other hand you got sponsors like naughty america, who you would nearly suspect from upload their full scenes to the tubes themselves :)

wtf! crazy so far

I own 7 online porn TV stations you idiot. Don't teach me on what works and what does not work. I know what free porn does, but with TV people at least have limited choice in what they watch and they still buy subscriptions. If you give out millions of videos for them to choose from they will simply find the one they like there and won't even think about buying a subscriptions.

And I have paid for all my content, while tubes just steal it.

Tubes are "the next big thing" and when I asked about solutions all people advised was to open legal tubes. Bullshit advice as all it will do is take more customers from paysites.

A bit "sitting back and wishing". Not trying to have a go but pointing out the attitude of many in the business. So if the tubes giving out free videos are not very profitable all we have to do is make them less than profitable by taking theirpaying customers" ad getting them to paysites.

We need to find out what funds the big full scene tubes and hit them there.

I personally think the recession, coupled with customers realising dating and webcams are not as good as they thought might tilt the balance. But sitting back and hoping s never a good business strategy.

I see the niche business from the side of the content providers. It's a different view and very telling. I can shoot many niches and i the last 30 years have done so in more competitive markets than the Internet. Leg and feet, hairy pussy, big tits, amateur, uniform and more.

So when I'm approached by one of the niche sites my first question is "What will you pay?" The answer is usually "We can't spend a lot of money." Even big sponsors thinking of adding niche sites did not have the budgets to pay for good content.

This is simple to explain, most good niche sites are run by people who know and love the niche for others who know and love the niche. The idea that we can all open or promote niche sites is silly.

How do sites that sell porn compete with sites that give it away?

Make the members areas sites that give it away a lot better. And yes it can be done. It will need more thought put on the inside of a website rather than sending traffic. The balance needs shifting.

Take the paying customers on Tubes away from them. They are funded a lot by adverts for webcam and dating sites while giving away the product we sell. Start giving away the products they sell and hurt their bottom line.

Or watch your income shrink

Alexa never claims to be accurate when talking about a few hits a day, it would only take 1 or 2 visitors with the toolbar to throw things off. Things are more accurate sub 100,000 rank.

Sorry but this and nothing to do with the downturn and if it was happening in big numbers would close tube sites. If they are looking for free on tubes and not buying anything they're a drain on the servers and cost on BW.

People on Tubes are spending money. The whole concept that it's just freeloaders is 100% wrong. They exist because they make a profit, take that profit away and they will run into trouble.

Very true, but not a tube site owners problem. They don't care if their one sale costs the rest of us 10.

But over and over again in this thread people only point out the problem. Very very few offer any solution. Be it one that will work or not.

This is how I see it.

Tubes will continue to exist, legal or illegal, as long as they make a profit. We can't sue them and unless a law is passed to make them easy targets they are here to stay.

Tube sites are on a tight margin. They generally can't afford to buy content and people who want to load them with custom videos don't generally have a lot of money to spend. Be it Youtube or Youporn strength content.

People with paysites full of content they own choose to sell the site to someone else rather than open a Tube site.

Opening legal tubes will not work. From day one of selling content to this side of porn the only cry that has been consistent is people saying there is too much free porn availabe which costs sales.

In the 2-3 years that Tubes have harmed everyones, excluding a few tube site owners, no oe has come up with a solution. Until we do we will continue to see customers move over and other threads telling us what we already know. Tubes cost us money.

Just because less people are willing to be sold shit, doesn't mean people can't and aren't making more money than ever before.

The pie isn't shrinking due to tubes... the pie was shrinking years before tubes came around. That's something you people continue to miss.


Things are "green" because I don't get my traffic from within the porn industry. If you deal in porn traffic only you have like .001% of the 'net traffic to deal with, then I would be hurting.

Thus, adding any new traffic stream.. is green.

so i was right you were pretending to be stupid

you deleberately ignored "intervention" which has no product to sell
you deliberately ignored "oc chopper" show and focused only on the hard good they sell

to make a completely bogus point about how product placement can't work to promote something else that is free.

BTW the oc chopper example in my name is earl is a perfect example of low value free to high value free product placement specifically because of the back end on OC.

Every chopper featured pays nbc studios big money in product placement fees for the show, movie, etc that is promoted as a part of the show.

Every bike sells for huge money.

it just about calculating the value per viewer, not caculating the value per subscriber.

which if you own a broadcast tv level channel (in any niche, porn or mainstream) you should know very well.

OK, how about a graph of the last time that thehun.net or worldsex.com changed their design or innovated in any way since 1997. The design hasnt changed in over 10 years. So they change basically NOTHING in 10 years and now people are now wondering why customers are interested in going to a more user friendly site? And as for the piracy argument - all those tgps used to post ripped content, many still do. People were saying the same thing about tgps back in 2000 (zomg tgps is giving away free content and destroying my pic post, halp)

Also, notice the traffic was trending down BEFORE the tube sites even existed? I think people were discovering other sources: forums, torrents, direct downloads etc.

Also 2, paysites have a lifecycle- they can start off wildly popular then traffic dies away naturally over time... look at bangbus from a few years back.

Tubes have been around for 2 years... but yet another 6 months will do it? Even though piracy has been around for 12 years, strongly for 10 years, easily able to reach at mass levels for 8 years?

You assume in like 6 months, a billion people will find pirated porn, know it's pirated, and never buy porn again? That's what you are talking about here.

We have had a global downturn in traffic, piracy did that too?



Every eBook sold online is just free info that can be found from on the 'net and 100% for free on torrents or just research the info your self. Prob easier than porn. Yet clickbank has pushed out $1.3 BILLION in sales of "ebooks" products that the exact same info can be found online, for free and for sure purchased in a book store for half the cost.


Money to be made.. mad mad mad, less Webmasters to fight with and more new corners of traffic than ever in history online. It has nothing to do with Piracy - it has everything to do with, this is how our Business works.

Arent there any graphs of legal tubes?

Yes... :thumbsup

http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?&w=40...m&u=4tube.com&
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/4tube.com

As of today we cracked the Alexa top 500.. yes yes.. a little bit of spamming, but thats been a mayor milestone.

Yes, you just need to read between the "tube theory" threads.

Sounds about right.