Mr. HUNGRYMAN you need to contact me whether you like it or NOT. - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

Gman.357 · 11-26-2002, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vegasdude
cool and because im the only one with the original psd files (which has a time stamp so you can see when they are created) I will have no worries....

nice trick!

but thats something I'll have to worry about tomorrow

The original PSD files are all you ever needed to begin with. People can mail themselves a screen cap or HTML version of the design all they want. Without the original PSD files, it's all moot. Copyright was initiated the moment the PSD files were created.

goBigtime · 11-26-2002, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gman.357

That's absolutely correct. The only reason to ever file a copyright through the government is so that you have a record of it on file to prevent yourself from ever having to go to court in the first place, and also preventing someone from wasting their money filing a copyright claim on something they have absolutely no rights to.

Bone, if you really filed a claim yesterday, it's invalid, and you just wasted your $3500 or whatever it was you paid.

Yeah it doesn't make sense to spend thousands fililng a copyright when you can do one that will hold up in court (and scare off anyone with a dispute) for < $10.

Gman.357 · 11-26-2002, 07:15 AM

Quote:

But if that was worth anything, there would be a lot of bands that could sue each other for sounding like one another.

Actually, that does happen all the time.

vegasdude · 11-26-2002, 07:17 AM

cool very informative Gman.357!

funkmaster · 11-26-2002, 07:18 AM

"Bone, if you really filed a claim yesterday, it's invalid, and you just wasted your $3500 or whatever it was you paid."

$3500 was only for the legal fees, we´ve spent another $35.000 on expenses. (firstclass flight to new york, limoservices, lapdancers ... ah you know ...). don´t tell me it was all a waste of money ...

goBigtime · 11-26-2002, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gman.357

The original PSD files are all you ever needed to begin with. People can mail themselves a screen cap or HTML version of the design all they want. Without the original PSD files, it's all moot. Copyright was initiated the moment the PSD files were created.

But anyone can hold the psd files. Does that make them the FIRST person to hold them? That's what the debate is....

If you have a sealed fedex envelope with a CD inside it that has the original PSD file on it.. there is nothing to argue about.

If you dont have a poor mans copyright & 5 people have the PSD file, all claiming to be the original author, or claiming they have rights.... .then there is a problem. Due to economics of everything -- they probably all WOULD have rights to it. Hell, the first one that does a poor mans copyright with the PSD would probably win in court.

vegasdude · 11-26-2002, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by goBigtime

But anyone can hold the psd files. Does that make them the FIRST person to hold them? That's what the debate is....

If you have a sealed fedex envelope with a CD inside it that has the original PSD file on it.. there is nothing to argue about.

If you dont have a poor mans copyright & 5 people have the PSD file, all claiming to be the original author, or claiming they have rights.... .then there is a problem. Due to economics of everything -- they probably all WOULD have rights to it. Hell, the first one that does a poor mans copyright with the PSD would probably win in court.

only one man holds the psd files...

guess who and win a beer!

Cohen · 11-26-2002, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vegasdude

only one man holds the psd files...

guess who and win a beer!

you ?

vegasdude · 11-26-2002, 07:22 AM

vegasdude · 11-26-2002, 07:23 AM

amp does until I recieve it in the mail

Gman.357 · 11-26-2002, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vegasdude
cool very informative Gman.357!

Thanks. The only reason I can even speak with any kind of knowledge on the matter is because I had to copyright and trademark many things in the past for a business I had previously. I found out many of the steps I took for copyrights were unnecessary on a legal standpoint. It does help to have a record of the creation of the material, but it's not entirely necessary for all things. In your case, since you're the only one with original PSD files... and PSD files are the absolute beginning of the design process... that's evidence enough of the copyright to the said design. But it won't hurt to have some documentation of the creation of those PSD files as well. Then someone can't turn around and make a claim that you somehow stole those files from them, which of course they would have to prove. Either way, the burden of proof is on THEM.

Cohen · 11-26-2002, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vegasdude
no

dont dring beer anyways - so it cool

Cohen · 11-26-2002, 07:27 AM

BoneProne - you should read this - its about Trademark and copyright

or the easy read version

goBigtime · 11-26-2002, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by .:Frog:.

And to be 100% honest that design kinda sucks, even amp mentioned he wasn't to fond of it.

I've been thinking the exact same thing the whole time. I didn't want to say anything though, but since AMP feels the same ---

What's up with that design anyway? I just dont get the whole

Phantom of the opera + Jason LIVES! + hookers in suits = a paysite design company.

Maybe its just me.

But I do understand why AMP has started the battle, good design or not :P

Gman.357 · 11-26-2002, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by goBigtime

But anyone can hold the psd files. Does that make them the FIRST person to hold them? That's what the debate is....

If you have a sealed fedex envelope with a CD inside it that has the original PSD file on it.. there is nothing to argue about.

If you dont have a poor mans copyright & 5 people have the PSD file, all claiming to be the original author, or claiming they have rights.... .then there is a problem. Due to economics of everything -- they probably all WOULD have rights to it. Hell, the first one that does a poor mans copyright with the PSD would probably win in court.

Valid points. However, since right now none of these other guys have anything more than the HTML version of the files (supposedly), and Vegasdude holds the originals... there's really no point of argument. Regardless of when the originals were made, if Vegas and Amp are the only ones with the originals, they're the only ones with the copyrights to the material (actually, AMP is the copyright holder), and the burden of proof is on everyone else staking claim to them.

goBigtime · 11-26-2002, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gman.357

Valid points. However, since right now none of these other guys have anything more than the HTML version of the files (supposedly), and Vegasdude holds the originals... there's really no point of argument. Regardless of when the originals were made, if Vegas and Amp are the only ones with the originals, they're the only ones with the copyrights to the material (actually, AMP is the copyright holder), and the burden of proof is on everyone else staking claim to them.

Oh undoubtedly. If they are the only ones with the PSDs and Vegas has a document or in the VERY LEAST a paper trial of pament to AMP for that specifc design -- then he owns it.

Even if AMP originally sold it to hungryman or whoever... if he didnt give them the PSD's or a contract for that specific design then they are fucked -- they are just in copyright violation pure & simple. But I'm guessing its a bit more complicated than that.

They probably have some records of payments to AMP for other jobs or something.. which probably wouldn't help much, but bottom line is no psds or a contract for that specific design & you better just hang it up.

vegasdude · 11-26-2002, 07:35 AM

not sure why but I like the design and I got this crazy idea for a cool 404 page! heh

goBigtime · 11-26-2002, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by goBigtime

but bottom line is no psds or a contract for that specific design & you better just hang it up.

I was under the impression that everyone had the PSD's... AMP -> hungryman -> whoever that other person was -> Vic/Vid whatever the name was.

I thought the psd was being spread around the whole time.

goBigtime · 11-26-2002, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vegasdude
not sure why but I like the design and I got this crazy idea for a cool 404 page! heh

YEah I just looked at it again.. I just don't like the mask girl thing at all. The rest of the design is cool =)

Gman.357 · 11-26-2002, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by goBigtime

Oh undoubtedly. If they are the only ones with the PSDs and Vegas has a document or in the VERY LEAST a paper trial of pament to AMP for that specifc design -- then he owns it.

Even if AMP originally sold it to hungryman or whoever... if he didnt give them the PSD's or a contract for that specific design then they are fucked -- they are just in copyright violation pure & simple. But I'm guessing its a bit more complicated than that.

They probably have some records of payments to AMP for other jobs or something.. which probably wouldn't help much, but bottom line is no psds or a contract for that specific design & you better just hang it up.

yep. Exactly. And I agree... it could be more complicated than we think. It would be interesting to find out (even though I'm willing to bet all of this is much ado about nothing) who had the original PSD REALLY , and who has or had a contract for this design.

Because I have a hunch 90% of this is just a bunch of guys blowing smoke up each other's asses.

Gman.357 · 11-26-2002, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vegasdude
not sure why but I like the design and I got this crazy idea for a cool 404 page! heh

The design isn't half bad. If you have the original PSD files as you claim, then slight modifications would be easy. But I don't know how modifications to the original would affect your copyright claim to that design.

boneprone · 11-26-2002, 07:52 AM

Damn....
Im gunna sue my attorney.

I think he took me for a ride.

vegasdude · 11-26-2002, 07:53 AM

hehe ugly or not its mine from tomorrow if HM doesn't contact me cuz I have given him every option... he has choosen silence then thats fine but it will go online then and AMP is the one with the "ball" and I bought it!

simple case if it goes to court... it will probally end before cuz there is only one judgement possible!

vegasdude · 11-26-2002, 08:00 AM

hell we need a worldwide judge judy

foe · 11-26-2002, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by boneprone
Im selling my copy for 850.00

foe · 11-26-2002, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by goBigtime

But how would you prove you are the original artist of a web design?

I for one wouldn't purchase a design without psd's and originals of all images/clipart used.

Whoever holds the PSD's could techinically argue that they are the original design. You could try to show other examples of work to prove that it LOOKS like the same type of design.

But if that was worth anything, there would be a lot of bands that could sue each other for sounding like one another.

They could say that the music that sounds like them was acutally originally created by them (if they had the original tracks as well - like in this case with mutiple people having PSDs)

U have a while to go till you go big time

vegasdude · 11-26-2002, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by foe

U have a while to go till you go big time

goBigtime · 11-26-2002, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by foe

U have a while to go till you go big time

We're talking low budget copyright matters here foe.

A ~$1000 site design doesnt quite justify getting traditional copyrights. So without an 'offical' copyright record, you have to make due as best you can if someone challenges your copyright. I'm just saying its going to be hard to do if everyone with the PSD is claiming to be the original creator.

On another note, STFU & GFY

AM Jeff · 11-26-2002, 08:42 AM

You don't need to use something expensive as Fed Ex to copyright.

Us the good ol USPS..

GaryKremen · 11-26-2002, 08:47 AM

Everybody who has contributed to this circus is either

A) pulling off the biggest publicity stunt since the GFY Design Contest

or

B) so totally clueless that you have failed to realize how fucking foolish the whole bunch of you(s) look.

My guess is a little of both A and B!

It is really disturbing to watch a bunch of grown adults behave in this manner. I don't see that much of anything has been accomplished here, but I am such a newbie, so what would I know?

Notice how people making money in the biz have avoided this topic like the plague?
Time to get back to making money people!

vegasdude · 11-26-2002, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GaryKremen
Everybody who has contributed to this circus is either

A) pulling off the biggest publicity stunt since the GFY Design Contest

or

B) so totally clueless that you have failed to realize how fucking foolish the whole bunch of you(s) look.

My guess is a little of both A and B!

It is really disturbing to watch a bunch of grown adults behave in this manner. I don't see that much of anything has been accomplished here, but I am such a newbie, so what would I know?

Notice how people making money in the biz have avoided this topic like the plague?
Time to get back to making money people!

but its still my design god damn it!

Cohen · 11-26-2002, 09:00 AM

Look at the latest change on the site -- is he doing it himself ?
-->> Link <<--

AM Jeff · 11-26-2002, 09:05 AM

First of all.

I couldn't believe that another design company would hire an outside designer for their own website design.

Now is that fucked up or what?
lmaooooooo.

GaryKremen · 11-26-2002, 09:11 AM

SO correct me if I am mistaken, but this whole fiasco was initially over a site design that has been in use UNCONTESTED for two years now ?

I am by no means a lawyer, but who's trying to play who for an idiot here?

I have not met Hungry Man in person, nor have I had any business dealings with him, so I am not about to pass judgement on his character, but I think this post is way out of line, and I don't think anybody has made a convincing arguement.

I just read all seven pages, and the only person involved who seemed to act the least bit professional is "vidvicious".

I'm off to make more money!

AM Jeff · 11-26-2002, 09:17 AM

Yeah...and ya'll need to take advice from the man.

A man who has no clue how to make money off the worlds most popular domain...

lmaooooooooooo

vegasdude · 11-26-2002, 09:19 AM

good for you Gary hope you make some bling bling...

but look thru all the bullshit and only valid point is:

I now own the design!

GaryKremen · 11-26-2002, 09:23 AM

AM Jeff

Lets compare bank books for shits and giggles one day.

AM Jeff · 11-26-2002, 09:28 AM

Gary...just think.

You'd have 50X more money if you knew how to properly market that thing.

A SE ain't it.

You old friend..Stephen Cohen made 20X times the money you did.

Thou..I'm glad you got the domain back from that piece of shit.

But YOU have no clue..just deep pockets.

Sad...your pockets COULD be alot deeper.

If you ONLY knew.

Manga1 · 11-26-2002, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AM Jeff
Yeah...and ya'll need to take advice from the man.

A man who has no clue how to make money off the worlds most popular domain...

lmaooooooooooo

Hmmm, seems someone's upset they didn't register any domains back in 1994.

AM Jeff · 11-26-2002, 09:40 AM

How many people you know on here that registered domains in 94?

I bet Ron Levi or many others would kill at an opportunity to market sex.com and pay 50% to Gary.

Even if the deal was...it had to do more income than it currently is now.

SuckMeBeautiful · 11-26-2002, 09:52 AM

Outsourcing is far more prevelant in today's business model than anybody here seems t realise and last time I checked it was not a crime.

I employ 8 people full time in my office (not porn related) and also have maybe another 10 people available to me as easy as a phone call.

There are "many" benefits to outsourcing work that have been totally ignored in this thread. It seems like a lynching to me.

I am going to have to agree with the minority here, that Mr. Hungryman and/or Paysite Designs (I am not sure if he is the owner, but I am led to believe he is, or at least one of it's executives) has been very unjustly defamated here. If it was me, I'd have lawyers crawling all over this. Sometimes people take things way to far, and I feel this is one of those times. I started reading this Sunday and wondered WTF? but now seeing how this has progressed is just utterly disgusting.

I am going to be contacting Paysite Designs today to do some work for me. I like their prices and portfolio REGARDLESS OF WHO SPECIFICALLY did the designs.

(Amputate Your Head: I looked at your site as well, and could not even find a portfolio

)

gothweb · 11-26-2002, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SuckMeBeautiful
Outsourcing is far more prevelant in today's business model than anybody here seems t realise and last time I checked it was not a crime.

People aren't upset because Hungryman outsources. They are upset because he passed the work off, again and again, as his own. (He talked about "my" stuff, "my" work, etc.) More importantly, they are upset because he didn't *pay* for it. Have you even been paying attention?

Jon · 11-26-2002, 10:06 AM

if thats the design, which the 3 chicks in the suits, then it blows. fighting for no reason, just because someone is bored. such babies call themselves grown men and wonder why they need to produce a credit card every damn time in order to get laid.

Fletch XXX · 11-26-2002, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by boneprone

Automatic Copyright huh? Ill have to look that one up.

When hands make something 'tangible' it is protected.

The moment something is uploaded to the web as a 'piece' it becomes tangible, and as soon as you show it to others, it is protected.

http://www.whatiscopyright.org

'When does ? take effect?"

Copyright protection begins when any of the above described work is actually created and fixed in a tangible form. '

MakeMeGrrrrowl · 11-26-2002, 11:42 AM

10 Myths about Copyright

Theo · 11-26-2002, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vegasdude
cuz I own the design used at paysitedesign.com.... bought it yesterday.

so nomatter how you put it we need to talk cuz only one of us will be using the design.

I expect a msg from you today.

To your success,

Best Wishes - "Vegasdude"
Email: [email protected]
ICQ : 128575758

did you try to contact him? The below options look faster than a board topic.
http://paysitedesign.com/contact.html

Theo · 11-26-2002, 12:03 PM

of course a board topic has more fun

vegasdude · 11-26-2002, 12:04 PM

yep soul tried contacting him, his partner, isprime.. icq ya name it...

not like im some evil person with no heart...

Planet Bob · 11-26-2002, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
of course a board topic has more fun

heheheh gotta love the drama

vegasdude · 11-26-2002, 12:19 PM

heh bob..

drama = perhaps
design = mine!

11-26-2002, 07:27 AM	#63
Cohen Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,099	BoneProne - you should read this - its about Trademark and copyright or the easy read version __________________ dont look at this signature, Wildcard told me making money on GFY is baaaaaaaaaddd - so my sponsor links have been removed Last edited by Cohen; 11-26-2002 at 07:28 AM..

11-26-2002, 07:52 AM	#72
boneprone Hall Of Fame Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Portland Oregon USA Posts: 34,415	Damn.... Im gunna sue my attorney. I think he took me for a ride. __________________ Industry Hall Of Fame Legend Mike Jones Bow to the Power - Still BP4L http://gfyawards.com/hall-of-fame Learn about it kids.

11-26-2002, 09:00 AM	#82
Cohen Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,099	Look at the latest change on the site -- is he doing it himself ? -->> Link <<-- __________________ dont look at this signature, Wildcard told me making money on GFY is baaaaaaaaaddd - so my sponsor links have been removed

11-26-2002, 09:28 AM	#88
AM Jeff Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The House Of Rage Posts: 1,320	Gary...just think. You'd have 50X more money if you knew how to properly market that thing. A SE ain't it. You old friend..Stephen Cohen made 20X times the money you did. Thou..I'm glad you got the domain back from that piece of shit. But YOU have no clue..just deep pockets. Sad...your pockets COULD be alot deeper. If you ONLY knew. Last edited by AM Jeff; 11-26-2002 at 09:30 AM..

11-26-2002, 10:06 AM	#93
Jon Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 2,578	if thats the design, which the 3 chicks in the suits, then it blows. fighting for no reason, just because someone is bored. such babies call themselves grown men and wonder why they need to produce a credit card every damn time in order to get laid. __________________ WickedFire.com - Stay here. We don't need more of you. Not unless you have money, then, fine...

11-26-2002, 07:17 AM	#54
vegasdude Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: The Royal Family Crew Posts: 3,649	cool very informative Gman.357!

11-26-2002, 07:18 AM	#55
funkmaster So Fucking Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: shell beach Posts: 7,938	"Bone, if you really filed a claim yesterday, it's invalid, and you just wasted your $3500 or whatever it was you paid." $3500 was only for the legal fees, we´ve spent another $35.000 on expenses. (firstclass flight to new york, limoservices, lapdancers ... ah you know ...). don´t tell me it was all a waste of money ...

11-26-2002, 07:22 AM	#59
vegasdude Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: The Royal Family Crew Posts: 3,649	no

11-26-2002, 07:23 AM	#60
vegasdude Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: The Royal Family Crew Posts: 3,649	amp does until I recieve it in the mail

11-26-2002, 07:35 AM	#67
vegasdude Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: The Royal Family Crew Posts: 3,649	not sure why but I like the design and I got this crazy idea for a cool 404 page! heh

11-26-2002, 07:53 AM	#73
vegasdude Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: The Royal Family Crew Posts: 3,649	hehe ugly or not its mine from tomorrow if HM doesn't contact me cuz I have given him every option... he has choosen silence then thats fine but it will go online then and AMP is the one with the "ball" and I bought it! simple case if it goes to court... it will probally end before cuz there is only one judgement possible!

11-26-2002, 08:00 AM	#74
vegasdude Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: The Royal Family Crew Posts: 3,649	hell we need a worldwide judge judy

11-26-2002, 08:42 AM	#79
AM Jeff Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The House Of Rage Posts: 1,320	You don't need to use something expensive as Fed Ex to copyright. Us the good ol USPS..

11-26-2002, 08:47 AM	#80
GaryKremen So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 29	Everybody who has contributed to this circus is either A) pulling off the biggest publicity stunt since the GFY Design Contest or B) so totally clueless that you have failed to realize how fucking foolish the whole bunch of you(s) look. My guess is a little of both A and B! It is really disturbing to watch a bunch of grown adults behave in this manner. I don't see that much of anything has been accomplished here, but I am such a newbie, so what would I know? Notice how people making money in the biz have avoided this topic like the plague? Time to get back to making money people!

11-26-2002, 09:05 AM	#83
AM Jeff Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The House Of Rage Posts: 1,320	First of all. I couldn't believe that another design company would hire an outside designer for their own website design. Now is that fucked up or what? lmaooooooo.

11-26-2002, 09:11 AM	#84
GaryKremen So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 29	SO correct me if I am mistaken, but this whole fiasco was initially over a site design that has been in use UNCONTESTED for two years now ? I am by no means a lawyer, but who's trying to play who for an idiot here? I have not met Hungry Man in person, nor have I had any business dealings with him, so I am not about to pass judgement on his character, but I think this post is way out of line, and I don't think anybody has made a convincing arguement. I just read all seven pages, and the only person involved who seemed to act the least bit professional is "vidvicious". I'm off to make more money!

11-26-2002, 09:17 AM	#85
AM Jeff Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The House Of Rage Posts: 1,320	Yeah...and ya'll need to take advice from the man. A man who has no clue how to make money off the worlds most popular domain... lmaooooooooooo

11-26-2002, 09:19 AM	#86
vegasdude Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: The Royal Family Crew Posts: 3,649	good for you Gary hope you make some bling bling... but look thru all the bullshit and only valid point is: I now own the design!

11-26-2002, 09:23 AM	#87
GaryKremen So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 29	AM Jeff Lets compare bank books for shits and giggles one day.

11-26-2002, 09:40 AM	#90
AM Jeff Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The House Of Rage Posts: 1,320	How many people you know on here that registered domains in 94? I bet Ron Levi or many others would kill at an opportunity to market sex.com and pay 50% to Gary. Even if the deal was...it had to do more income than it currently is now.

11-26-2002, 09:52 AM	#91
SuckMeBeautiful Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: T-Dot Posts: 143	Outsourcing is far more prevelant in today's business model than anybody here seems t realise and last time I checked it was not a crime. I employ 8 people full time in my office (not porn related) and also have maybe another 10 people available to me as easy as a phone call. There are "many" benefits to outsourcing work that have been totally ignored in this thread. It seems like a lynching to me. I am going to have to agree with the minority here, that Mr. Hungryman and/or Paysite Designs (I am not sure if he is the owner, but I am led to believe he is, or at least one of it's executives) has been very unjustly defamated here. If it was me, I'd have lawyers crawling all over this. Sometimes people take things way to far, and I feel this is one of those times. I started reading this Sunday and wondered WTF? but now seeing how this has progressed is just utterly disgusting. I am going to be contacting Paysite Designs today to do some work for me. I like their prices and portfolio REGARDLESS OF WHO SPECIFICALLY did the designs. (Amputate Your Head: I looked at your site as well, and could not even find a portfolio )

11-26-2002, 11:42 AM	#95
MakeMeGrrrrowl Grrrrrrrrr Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Dreamland Posts: 4,984	10 Myths about Copyright

11-26-2002, 12:03 PM	#97
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	of course a board topic has more fun

11-26-2002, 12:04 PM	#98
vegasdude Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: The Royal Family Crew Posts: 3,649	yep soul tried contacting him, his partner, isprime.. icq ya name it... not like im some evil person with no heart...

11-26-2002, 12:19 PM	#100
vegasdude Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: The Royal Family Crew Posts: 3,649	heh bob.. drama = perhaps design = mine!