Yet those are exactly the ones who're pushing the general product for years and who are DIRECTLY competing with those, who are running, not financing the tubes and other scum, that's their competition.

So they see less return then they were used to.

But again, it's those who stole that traffic from them, who are fucking everyone,

not saying that these guys are making great marginal returns, maybe they don't do that much, but they are the ones that hold the traffic, they cause the most damage to everyone - the one that holds the traffic rules.

I agree they tend to do the most damage to the 'industry' BROS.

Let me clarify my point...

The 'industry' is not ONLY the BROS, programs, and people represented on this board.

There are thousands, tens or even hundreds of thousands, of mom and pop and small studios and web sites I have never heard of, and that probably have never made a single post on this, or any, industry forum.

Look at clips4sale alone. A vast majority of those studio owners do not post here. A lot of those people you will never recognize. I know when I was putting together my FOOT FETISH and TICKLING search engine there were hundreds I had never heard of, but they were nice sized sites.

Putting the point on the pencil.... While the shows, forums, panels, trade mags talk about 'the industry being down', the truth of the matter is, the big dollar BROS are down. A lot of us, especially niche and fetish providers, are still doing the same or better business. Not all, but a lot I have talked to.

So 'the industry' is only represented on this, and other boards, by the participants. Not on the people actually in this industry as a whole. Many are not hurting. Nor is the traffic of the BRO networks king of their sales.

That said, if you are more accurately talking about BRO programs, how they market their BRO content on their BRO traffic networks, then yes. I agree with you. They are basically cannibalizing themselves.

Not all of us use BRO traffic sources or content. Not all of us suffer at the hands of BRO.
:2 cents:

Great post.

The problem is not enough people understand the product they're selling. They think of it as stacking shelves. If you put up enough sites and send enough traffic they will buy. Some still think the key is sending traffic, but ignore the cost/profit ratio of that traffic. Or see it and don't have an answer. Some will buy once maybe twice and a few will buy over and over again. But the problem today is not enough buy enough to make the returns good.

Some think you can make better porn using a HD camera, you can't. You just make it clearer. Some think you can fool a teen niche buyer think a 30 year old is a teen, you can't but you can make some affiliates think it. Like they think HD is better. And there is your problem, not enough of the sellers understand the product.

Watching the sex act, is only erotic if you fantasize you're in there. Lots of porn produced today does not have this fantasy. It's purely to be watched, not involving the viewer. Another girl on another sofa doing the same thing she does in 5 or 50 other scenes. Porn for sale needs to go further than that.

And if it doesn't it's no different from 500 over scenes on bluetube ot tube6. :winkwink:

I totally agree, the one that shouts the most is not the one that has the most.

It would actually extremely interest me how much traffic, partially, is flowing through the say top 10 programs out of the total pie.

Then I would be also extremely interested how much traffic is flowing say through top 5 sponsors in every niche, and what's the average earnings per 1000 uniques in these niches for them.

Cause I know, I'm not hurting at all! And I know, I'll be able to grow the business for at least say 3 more years! I'm this optimistic.

Then I would be also extremely interested, how much traffic out of the total porn traffic (traffic that visits 18+ rated porn sites) is regularly visiting tube sites and how much traffic out of this is still visiting the affiliate promos - aka free sites as we used to know it.

But these things are already quantification - not something many would be familiar with and many would use, otherwise we would hardly ever end up in such unproductive shitter as now.

It's pure and simple .. the main stream porn industry needs to re-invent itself just like years ago when bangbus and backroom facials etc. burst on to the scene and were big hits something new is required. As stated lots of time on this thread, a better quality product is required. Watch 5 minutes of any of the reality porn clips and you get bored. The script is poor, the acting shocking and it just doesn't grab the surfer!

When you see existing customers walking away from your shop you have to stop and think why. Then you have to talk to your customers, you have to find what they want, not ask affiliates what they want to send you traffic.

Reality porn sells like ice in the desert. The problem is 90% of the producers don't have a clue what's real. A girl faking it is not real, a girl doing what 1,000 other girls do on 1,000 other sites is not real either.

The problem is Tube sites are a better option than many paysites and until we turn that around we will have to wait for Governments to step in and make them illegal.

How about this,

http://www.bigsisterlive.com/img/block/7_b.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Sister_(brothel)

The article is old as hell, I'll have to update it.

maybe it will mean something to you, maybe not.

http://www.bigsisterlive.com/free/vi..._bigsister.wmv

Tell me, if you get the concept from the trailer, that's important.

Compre the investment put in by the people behind Big Sister, money, time and technology. They have something truly unique and I'm sure with the right traffic converts.

Then look at all the trolls sending their traffic to sites that have nothing different, nothing unique and no real investment. That pay out 65% or $35 PPS or more.

Until this industry realises it's the good unique content that keeps people buying the Tubes will keep getting their customers.

I'm sure some send traffic to Big Sister, but how many?

And how many think of keeping the customers are getting and how many think of what they can get for themselves?

Thanks for the props,

Well I plan a major marketing action around May, once I have all the new promos online. Let's see the outcome, I'll also talk to all those with traffic I know after all these years, they were actually vital with their feedback to a couple adjustments, that will be done yet.

Anyone who responds apart from Paul Markham wins a free sex in our club.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Show us some samples :thumbsup

Here are some short trailers, hope it's gonna play:

http://nl.bigsister.net/screenshot/bg0002_1.jpg

http://nl.bigsister.net/trailer/bg0002.wmv

http://nl.bigsister.net/screenshot/bg0008_1.jpg

http://nl.bigsister.net/trailer/bg0008.wmv

These are from live broadcasted hand cam I guess, but there's also remote cam system in each room, if someone's shy.

:winkwink:

Damn I guess I was a bit harsh on Paul here, hope your health is well!

As an apology, Paul gets free sex in our club anytime!

:)

Bumped this because of the "porn is dying" discussion.

Thanks for bumping this thread, Carlos - otherwise I would never have discovered it in this huge pool of non-business threads :)

Anyway, I just got done reading and there's a lot of relevant questions raised and worth considering.

I have a few thoughts regarding this whole issue.

First of all: The role of the search engines
Now I am not saying that the industry is not to blame for the current situation - a lot of factors have contributed, many of which we can thank ourselves for.

However take a look at this example - I search for Mature.nl in US Google safesearch off: http://www.google.com/search?q=matur...f&start=0&sa=N

Apart from a few exceptions look at the first few pages of results - all torrent sites or similar file sharing pages. And it's the same with most adult keywords - tons and tons of those results.

Does Google etc. have a responsibility to filter out those results? Maybe not. But it definitely goes to show that Google delivers crap results for anything adult related. I have searched specifically for relatively targeted terms that I know we have relevant content about on AdultReviews.net and wouldn't find it in the first many pages of results if at all. But there would always be plenty of results like the example above.

And relating it to the topic - it's no wonder people go to everything but the actual paysites when all they get is results like this.

Secondly: Are sites with content that can't be put on tubes affected?
Most notably cam sites. It's obvious that live cam sites offer something that can't easily be copied since each performance is based on the customer's interaction.
So are sites that mainly feature content that can't be tubed, experiencing a similar decline in traffic and/or revenue?

Thirdly - Porn as a concept
I noticed a few discussing what was "real porn" and what was just poorly produced porn without a script, good acting etc.
Take a look at the definition of Porn according to Wikipedia
There is no such thing as "the right kind of porn". Porn is whatever turns the viewer on at this current moment.

I know from myself that even though I have favorite types of porn, I don't always want to see the same kind of porn. I mean you might prefer vanilla ice cream, but sometimes you want to have strawberry ice cream or chocolate ice cream...

But if a surfer finds something he really likes - like say a particular guy's style. For example the guy from Amateur Allure (aside from the fact that production quality here is very high) - basically the same thing happens in all the scenes, except the girls are different. But if the surfer really likes this guy's style, then finding tons and tons of the same stuff will be exactly what he wants. He doesn't care whether other consider it monotonous.

So I guess what I'm saying is that we can't develop a universal formula for "good porn" for all people. Rather a site should develop its own concept and aim to perfect it.

And finally, Carlos, it seems we have never gotten around to review your site, but feel free to submit it here and I will make sure we get that done.

I think we gotta begin delivering some descent pornography and not just yet another naked girl fucking a naked guy.

We need to excite the the audience, some programs are doing that.
We shall focus on creating such good products that other webmasters would consider buying access too see it.

And we gotta treat our traffic as real people where we don't try to cheat them.

Right now the adult indutry is a mess. Some will survive, some will not.

Yes, as was already mentioned even in this thread, sending SE traffic on the most popular niche terms with a mass of free substitute might as well be nowhere productive.

Well I can't speak for livecam owners, the only thing I know is that studios that used to make good bank four five years ago are hardly profitable these days as there's a massive oversaturation among livecam performers and dollar ain't in the best shape.

This should, according to my past livecam experience affect the customer experience, the models simply are not so good if they do not make enough money and try anything possible to make a dime / changing providers, multiple providers at once at the end it's an overall decline in revenue per model.

As for our project, we do have our very own live program with real couples, swingers and it's a vital part of the appeal and retention, anyone can SEE it's real people and no fake as it's live.

I bulshit not if I say there was no drop in conversions, no drop in $ per sign up, that even grew as we introduced a couple new features, it's just less traffic on those legal sources you have available and the overall constant panic doesn't help neither.

Well my perception is that no matter how porn could have sucked in the past, someone could make a bank as it was scarce and taboo.

Give it to everyone for free and the only ones that will remain as loyal and repeat buyers will be those, who cannot find their very own turn on anywhere else.

I sure will, thanks!

Btw. haven't we met in Amsterdam 2007?

Cool, I just checked and we have received the review request, so I'll assign that right away.

Yes we have met previously - it was probably last year though since we didn't attend Amsterdam in 2007. :drinkup

straight in center of problem :(

Wow ... Awesome thread ... and finally.

I spend more time trying to find good programs/sites to promote than anything else. My main focus used to be to try to get as much traffic as possible (which I still want) but when I do get more and more my sales increase only 'slightly' in proportion to the increase in traffic.

My income would double/triple just by putting some links up to a few good converting sites. But it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. I keep looking.

:(