volante

Care to go back and read you first post? Or any of the others in which you don't even seem to know the difference between Northern Ireland and Ireland? Or any of the others in which you contradict previous posts made by yourself?

AM Jeff

Classic Dave.

Dave...does that mean you STILL refuse to pay people you scammed?

AM Jeff

Dave..bases on the poll...you have scammed 64% of the people you have dealt with.

That isn't a good sign..

AM Jeff

volante...have the time..Dave doesn't even know what he's talking about.

jammyjenkins

Here you're saying that the British consider the Irish sub-human?

Not sure who you're talking about here, but no one I know thinks like that. Once again -- not sure who you're talking about.

And I meant isn't it the right in NI to march around as you wish? Not breaking any laws.

Quote:

<i>why would the british have any involvement with them -- how would they benefit?</i> I don't know how they'd benefit. But they always seem to be involved.

Do you have proof?

I'm not arguing the issue -- it would just seem a strange and pointless thing for anyone to be involved with.

Quote:

<i>are you anti-loyalist? If you are -- aren't you adding to the fucked-up situation?</i> Quite simply, yes. I don't believe the british should be in northern ireland as the governing power. Ireland is quite capable of handling itself. And no, i'm not adding to the situation. I don't dislike loyalist people. Individually, i'm sure they're quite nice people. But they shouldn't be ruling northern ireland.

That's the issue. Are the NI able to rule it successfully?

There seems to be so much hatred, if there wasn't a third party involved it could get a LOT worse very quickly.

Agree, or not?

Once again -- I find it impossible to believe that the british leave, and suddenly everyone starts getting along.

Seriously you can't believe that.

chodadog

<i>so you agree with the IRA detonating bombs in London and killing civilians who have nothing to do with the political process?</i>

Of course not. I agree with targeting military targets, militant loyalists and in some cases, police and the odd corrupt judge.

<i>Let's say Britain pulled out of NI tomorrow, what do YOU think would happen?</i>

I really can't say. I think there'd be more bloodshed. Retaliation from Loyalist groups would be unsurprising.

<i>Do you support terrorism against the Enlish? if you do, you're scum in my book</i>

I support attacks on Militant groups, and the British Military.

<i>Would the british completely pulling out and NI getting political autonomy solve all the problems?</i>

No, but that is really the core of the problem isn't it?

<i>You're seriously telling me the loyalists and republicans would suddenly start getting along?</i>

You make far too many assumptions of me. Of course not, but it'd be a start. The goal of the IRA is to liberate Northern Ireland, correct? Obviously, there'd be some sort of attacks in the aftermath from Loyalist groups, and probably retaliation from repblican groups, but i can't see any Loyalists bombing NI for the next 30 years demanding British rule again.

<i>answer those questions, or this isn't worth debating any further</i>

Again, with the assumptions. I leave for 5 freakin' minutes to make a cup of tea and you think i've lost interest?

jammyjenkins

Okay...

You say you want a free N Ireland. Would you agree that a united Ireland is between the North and the South, not with Britain involved? I think everyone would agree with that.

Then what interest do the British actually have in N Ireland except helping to keep the peace?

And if they did pull out too quickly, wouldn't things get a lot worse?

Isn't the Good Friday Agreement trying to resolve all these issues?

jammyjenkins

I know I'm asking a lot of questions here, but it's really interesting to have someone informed and objective in this debate.

And it makes me angry when people say the British are anti-Irish, when it is SO not true.

chodadog

Yes, it's also my right to tattoo a swastika onto my arm, and telling everyone i hate jews. The orange order marching is their way of putting down the Irish.

That article i posted showed involvement. I'm not saying they have anything to gain from it, or that it's anything sinister, but they do have an impact on the way the marches are done. There's always big issues involving where the marches should be allowed to go and whatnot. The british government do get involved in this process.

Of course Ireland could run the country successfully. Just look at the republic over the last 10 years. It's become one of the most thriving economies on the face of the planet. The quality of life is high. Things are looking good.

I don't agree that the situation would get any worse than it has been over the last 30 years.

I agree. I don' think they'll ever "get along" but it'll certainly stop the IRA making attacks, except for retaliation to loyalist attacks, which i suspect would go on for quite a few years.

Jon

the irish shouldve joined with the scottish armies in the 1300's to defeat the english.

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chodadog

Times are certainly changing. But this has been going on for hundreds of years. My father told me stories about when he was a young man, back in the 60's... there were still signs around saying "Job Vacancies - Irish Need Not Apply"

And sure, a lot can change since then. But the same people who had those signs in their shop windows live not more than 10 minutes from my granmother's house today. And you can bet your ass they're still as anti irish as they ever were.

jammyjenkins

Your last comment confuses me -- I would have thought the orange order were Irish.

That's true about the swastika. And hating jews. Anything more though and it may become incitement to hatred which is a whole different story.

I personally can't see any interest the British have in N Ireland. Perhaps I'm missing something.

However, would you say that the big difference between Northern and Southern Ireland is that Southern Ireland doesn't have the religious/partisan hatred that causes so many problems in the North?

That seems to be the big difference.

chodadog

700 years of hindsight is a wonderful thing.

jammyjenkins

He lives in England?

That's the thing -- times REALLY change.

We joke about it, but I can't say the British have a problem with the Germans (I know it's been a bit longer).

And look how well the US and Russia now get on. Apparentely.

And then you have Jews/Arabs fighting over a piece of land from 2,000 years ago. Sad.

jammyjenkins

That's the funny thing ... it you're "bigger" than another country, you always seem to attract unwanted attention.

I've been told (by a Scotsman) that the Scottish always talk down England.

Whereas in England we think of Scotland as a nice place to visit, and that the Scottish are cool, but that's about it.

I've heard it's the same with New Zealand and Australia.

A geographical type of penis-envy.

chodadog

They may be born in northern ireland, but they're loyalists. It'd be a cold day in hell before they referred to themselves as Irish.

I know you disagree, but it's a power thing. It's the last little piece of their empire. They control the Irish in northern Ireland. That's all the interest they need.

I'd say the big difference was the british presence! Take away the british government from Northern Ireland, and the shit will eventaully die down. It will never stop as long as the british are there.. Sad but true.

jammyjenkins

Shit -- we carry on like this and we're going to win Scammy McScam a DVD player.

chodadog

No, they had those signs in Northern Ireland.

Or "Taigs need not apply"

chodadog

Australians are forever bagging New Zealanders. Always light hearted though. Unless it comes to rugby.

jammyjenkins

Here I show my confusion. How exactly is a loyalist not irish, when they're born and live in Ireland?

That to me sounds like a conspiracy theory. Really.

We don't gain from it, it gives us nothing but headaches. And we honestly have bigger subjects we should be focussing on.

One thing I will say about the British Empire -- the vast majority of their colonies were given back to the people of the country as a democracy.

And now they all kick our arses at cricket/rugby

Now I can't understand why you think the British leaving would actually stop the violence.

I can't see a connection there.

To me it seems merely between the loyalists/republicans

Just like the british had nothing to do with the violence between jews and arabs in Palestein, and eventually gave up and let them fight it out.

The situation's no better there now is it?

chodadog

That's just it. They don't consider it to be Ireland. It's part of Britain. Mutually exclusive in their minds.

Didn't Ireland beat England just recently in the Rugby?

It's about occupation and power.

You can't compare the situation in Palestine with the Irish and the English. The loyalists and the british are one and the same (i don't mean the militan loyalists) whereas in the jew/arab analogy, the british are a third party.

There is very little violence between common people. The goal of the IRA is not to kill british people aimlessly, it's to force them out of Ireland. Once they've achieved that, the aggressive violence from the IRA will stop, and i'm guessing you'd only see defencive violence.

chodadog

Gah, it's 5 am. I'm off to bed..
Hit me up on ICQ if you wanna chat some more at a later stage.

83032884

jammyjenkins

Okay

Where are you, I thought you were in Ireland?

I gotta do some work too...

scooby doo as scooby does

What a load of fucking bollocks. Contrary to what you seem to think, us brits do not go to bed at night dreaming of 'empire' or wondering how we can hold onto the last little piece. Jeez, grow up man.

You may be right, I for one would welcome getting out, although I am also very sure a bloodbath would follow.

I will never forget those pictures of men and woman throwing crisp packets and screaming at 5 year old kids who walked past their houses on the way to school. The kids were petrified, in tears. I cant remember to which side which belonged now, it doesn't matter. Hatred exists, a bloodbath will follow. And, yes, I consider those people sub-human, whichever side they were on.

That spoke volumes more to me than bombs. Bombs are inpersonal, the victims are once-removed. It's easier to hate or kill people when they are just 'numbers'. The pictures of that up-close & personal hatred were truly ugly.

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roly

he's saying there would be if the troops moved out

When did this happen? it didn't, Argentina invaded but the people there wanted to stay british. And that was an out and out war, no arrests, just lots of killing on both sides

That's the whole problem most of northern ireland wants british rule. And don't say that they've no right as there not irish, there as irish as you are american (unless your an american indian)

scooby doo as scooby does

That again is fucking bollocks, look at the link I gave earlier in the thread, produced I might add, by Ulster University, not a UK source. It's true the IRA majority kills are British military and/or related, but look at the killings list, there are very substantial Republican/Loyalist killings, your statement is just untrue and simply propaganda originating from elsewhere.

The reason the Brits get involved in controlling where those republican/loyalist marches go is that if they didn't, they would end up as fuckin' bloodbaths. You only have to watch the TV pictures to see the hatred. Anyone who thinks differently is deluding themselves. And I say that as one that truly wished we didn't waste our tax money there, I have a trillion better things it could be spent on.

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chodadog

No, i live in Australia now.

HS-Trixxxia

Actually, he wants to everyone to put it all aside and forget about it.

Well the truth is, it's been 13 hours since my last post, and asshole, there's still no cash in my paypal that was refunded by you. So you either put up or SHUT the fuck up about how 'people want to think' that you are a scammer.

You are and dodging the questions and posting when the dust seems to settle isn't going to help you.

volante

Ah! that explains your hatred of us Brits

HS-Trixxxia

Oh...and Lensman, if he wins the DVD, convert it to cash and give it to a good cause for the ones that got fucked and PLEASE make sure not to give him any content - he may try to broker it ;-)

chodadog

I meant, there is no major violence between common people. You won't find an average jow blow republican murdering an average joe blow loyalist, or vice versa. It's far more likely that an extremist from either side is murdering an extremist from the other side, and in some cases an innocent from the other side. My point is, take away the 'cause of the violence (the occupation of Northern Ireland) and the violence <i>will</i> end in time. If the British decide they'll stay there for another 100 years, there will be another 100 years of violence.

I'm not doubting that. I was just pointing out that they were involved, for better of for worse.

Right on. Now if only the rest of your country would think the same way, and actually do something about it.

railz

Dave, pay back Trixxxia, pay back EVERYONE and add something for their time and hassle in this matter.

You tried to claim all the threads about you on this board were part of a big joke. Fucking pay up scammer.

Edit: Cut&Pasted wrong part of Log.

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chodadog

Oh, more current evidence about Loyalist's opinions of the Republic.

<i>Ulster Unionist leader David Trimble has accused critics of over-reacting to his description of the Republic of Ireland as "a pathetic sectarian state". </i>

Not just some Joe Blow loyalist either. And that was in march of this year.

chodadog

I don't hate British people. I disagree with their occupation of Northern Ireland, nothing more than that.

chodadog

How many americans still swear to the crown? Kiss the royal pinky? What kind of American pledges his loyalty to the Crown? What kind of Irishman pledges his loyalty to the crown?

UnseenWorld

Fuck! Replied to the wrong post!

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UnseenWorld

Hmmm indeed. I'm in the "legal teen" market, or didn't you know that? I guess you're in trouble because you don't know how to read, perhaps? I did not *imply* you were a pedophile. It was YOU who suggested you would buy any domain if it was available. So, now I guess you didn't really mean that?

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bhutocracy

Australians still have the monarchy.

we need an ARA

chodadog

Hehe, not quite the same though. Britain doesn't rule Australia. The monarchy is just a figurehead.

I'll meet you at the Ettamogah pub to discuss plans!

scooby doo as scooby does

I'm a Brit. I've never sworn to the crown, never kissed a pinky, never kissed a royal pinky anyway never pledged my loyalty to the crown and if the Queen tried to password crack my adult sites, I'd tell her to fuck off like anyone else.

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chodadog

My point was, that if someone in Northern Ireland wants British Rule, they are British, not Irish. My father was born in Northern Ireland and he will always be Irish. He is not Northern Irish, he is Irish.

jammyjenkins

There's a lot of good points here (apart from people hijacking this thread and rattling on about something completely unrelated -- start your own thread idiots)...

I still think it's delusional to think that the British moving out will make the situation better.

Chowdadog (sorry, can't remember the spelling) you said it might get worse before it becomes better.

I think it might be a very long time before it becomes better. If ever.

Unless that case is made more clearly and backed up with evidence, I'll never understand that point of view.

Sorry -- but the way they act towards each other, I can't see loyalists/republicans ever getting along.

But that's just my opinion, until I'm shown otherwise.

Just as it's your opinion to call the IRA "freedom fighters". Hmm...

chodadog

It's really quite simple. The goal of the IRA is to liberate Northern Ireland. Once liberated, their goal is complete, is it not? You'll be seeing a lot less of the IRA once Northern Ireland is liberated. Obviously, they'll still be around, but i doubt they'd be making any aggressive attacks, as their goal would have already been met. Make sense?

I think there will always be tension between the two groups, but what goal would a loyalist paramilitary possibly have once Northern Ireland was liberated? Do they think if they bomb enough people, Britain will invade again?

Obviously, you'll have the marches, annual rioting and all that, but the terrorism will stop, or at the very least, become far less frequent, and i think it'll eventually stop altogether.

jammyjenkins

I'm not talking about the IRA in this case. What I'm saying is -- do you really think the 'troubles' in N Ireland will go away when the British leave?

If yes - why?

That's the only question, and the only reason I can see the British still there -- to keep the peace.

And I'll say this again, and it came straight from someone who comes from the South of Ireland -- the South do not want to take over all the shit in the North. They're quite happy for the British to look after it.

And what's your take on Sinn Fein poisening the political process by spying? Or are you going to blame that on the British too?

Tipsy

You've gotta love threads where 50% of the people posting crap couldn't even locate the place on a map let alone have a clue about the true situation from either sides perspective. I gave up reading the rest of the posts when someone started saying only military etc where targetted. What a load of shit. As inaccurate as saying the loyalists or armed forces have never killed 'innocents'

4 pages of posts from people who on the whole haven't a clue. There may be a couple of exceptions but the vast majority (as usual) are spouting more crap than the average waste pipe on Brighton beach.

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chodadog

No. I've already said it, there will always be conflict there. But there will be no more terrorism.

I still maintain there will be a decrease in violence over time. Common thuggery will never stop. But that's gonna be the same either way.

Hogwash.

<i>In Northern Ireland, 71.2% of those voting on 22 May registered approval for the Agreement. In the Republic of Ireland, 94% voted ?Yes?, to a question that included approval to changes to Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution (the 'claim' to Northern Ireland).</i>

The ammendmant basically stated that Northern Ireland would be reunited with the south once a majority of the population in northern Ireland voted for a reunification in a Referendum. 94 Percent of Republicans feel this way. The guy you spoke to is obviously one of the 6 percent.

I think it sucks? lol

jammyjenkins

so then it's republicans fucking up the peace process?

just wanted to clarify that...

jammyjenkins

you just deleted your other post?

chodadog

I have been doing far more reading on the subject since i posted that, and i was wrong to say the Provisional IRA had not ever targeted innocent civilians. There is no way i can agree with something like that.

But i still support attacks on the military, and attacks against other paramilitary groups.

Attacks on innocent people are inexcusable.

chodadog

Don't you think the charge is a little vague?

<i>Denis Donaldson, 52, was charged at a special Belfast court session with having information likely to be of use to terrorists. Fiona Farrelly, 46, was charged with the same offense. </i>