Yes it would. But flip that around for a minute...what if every program (almost all the big ones) that have xsells decided not to pay Freeones and closed their accounts?
It runs both ways. Freeones has traffic because they built a very nice freesite over the years with a lot of work and thought. But without affiliate programs to fund that through sales and content for surfers to look at...it wouldn't last. It's a symbiotic relationship between affiliate and program. Freeones just a few months ago hit everybody with emails saying that they needed a bigger percentage for their account. Now they are saying that they are gonna flag a bunch of programs and cost them money. Something may have to give there.

But not every program will. A few might, but they'd be losing a fairly big amount of money.

That's the beauty of free markets. It's also the reason business cartels are illegal.

I think in this whole X-sell / hidden-xsell discussion one important thing needs to be said:

A xsell on a transaction page, either check or unchecked, that is CLEARLY displayed above the submit button is a perfectly acceptable business practice, especially for any program that pays per-join on trial sign-ups.

I'm not even going to dicuss hidden x-sells or sneaky x-sell techniques, I'm only talking about legit xsells here.

It is well within the right of the program to offer a xsell to a surfer, this is done much more aggressively in mainstream (go buy a domain at godaddy...), it's done at mcdonalds "would you like fries with that" (unchecked xsell).

The people who join adult sites are

a) not stupid
b) can read

I know they can read because they have to check an unchecked terms and condition box to process a transaction and the VAST MAJORITY of surfers uncheck pre-checked xsells.

The argument has been made that "the propotion of people you are ripping off is the same as your xsell %age on a pre-check xsell". This is absolute garbage not only because it is impossible to disentangle which of the surfers left it checked because they wanted to and who left it checked because they didn't read but also that the majority of sites that are being cross-sold to offer a completely legitimate adult product with hudreds of hours of explicit video and photos, more than worth the charge for the site.

I swear we are the only industry who thinks it has to give it's product away and apologize to customers when GOD FORBID they actually pay money for something. The ironic paradox is that the anti-xsell people are also the "if the product was quality then it wouldn't need a x-sell" people. If that's true then why is everyone rushing to the bottom offering more and more content for less and less money?

If you've never run a program and/or been responsible for the business of an affiliate program, then you really don't know what you're talking about. It's all gum-drops and fairy-tales when all you do is collect a pay-check, when peoples' livlihoods depend on the profitability of a program, you might sing a different tune. It's weird, I know, but affiliate programs are in business to stay in business and make profit, it's not a publc service.

You're right. :) But again...it runs both ways. Just as their would be programs (maybe ones that convert as well or not) that would step in to take the place of all the ones who walked.
There would also be other freesites to take over where freeones had left that behind. Which would mean less overexposure to some very high converting sites that suddenly could bring more traffic to other freesites because they would be the ones promoting the sites that have the content that people want to see.

And I'm speaking in general here. I know not every big program has great exclusive content. Most don't. But some of them definitely do. It's a loss/loss for everyone in my opinion. The only winners are the tubes and torrents who are ripping somebodies members area as we speak and destroying everybodies sales.

Amen :2 cents:

Why? The have a few people I'm sure they rock with, the rest of the majority is a trickle of sales. Just like the review sites, a few sites get most of the sales, while the rest split the left overs.

If I was the power house money earner for them, I would have total and clear power of them. As finding another sponsor that can convert the same is very hard. Yes, a program will treat a huge affiliate good - but it works both ways.

If a top earning program for them is a dirty program, do you think that program will get a red warning?

As for me, I will make them remove the icon if they put it next to sites I'm partners with. Just like I have made review sites remove reviews and/or change them until I like them and the rating - or don't push me at all.

Programs will kill a Webmaster doing 2-10 sales a week, without question. Maybe some smaller guys won't. But any med/big program has killed mailers doing 20, 50, 100 sales a day. So please don't think 2-10 a week is going to keep anyone around that doesn't like what the Affiliate is doing.

Good post Steve!

if you feel that a gallery is linking to a "deceptive" join page...then dont list the gallery...
im not putting warning icons on my page....

stated already why we don't do that. And we are not forcing anyone else to use the same idea either.

I am off to bed. Cheers!

She means "If we pay you to advertise on your site, do we get to fuck your surfers without you using warning labels on us?"

Candy Coating from Chase Candy Company.

http://www.cherrymash.com/tour/coating.jpg

when visa says fuck you to all of us. Then all the short sighted can talk about all the money we could of made. For all the it could never happen people, where is it going to go from 1 percent?
we dont have to worry about any right wing group putting a end to us.The short sighted will do it for them. lol

This however is not true. My estimates are that 30% of people joining adult sites have no fucking idea of how internet works in any way and can hardly choose a password and input the cc creditentials. Some other 30% don't know much about computers, other then to input their username/pass and cancle. Only 10% are actually very savy surfers, with intricate knowledge of the biling practices sites on internet (not only porn) use.

If you disagree, i can't give you my real numbers/evidence on this, but you can easilly verify this by putting a captcha on the login page for test, with something like "You have to input the word in the picture in the third form". Captchas are rather "normal" in todays time, alot of surfers have seen them, i'd guess most have, but you'll see by the percentages in your support increase what problems people get into with that simple thing. It ranges from "what picture" to "i am putting my username,password, and word in the third for and its not working". It was even worse when captchas first came by.
These people are not smart and can't read.

There's no grey area, a surfer can't "hardly enter their CC info" or "almost not join a site" - they either can or they can't. If they can't, there is no transaction.

In your argument there exists this person who can't read and doesn't know how the internet or computers work. They have managed to turn on their computer, opened a browser.. gone to a search engine or their favorite porn site. They've surfed around for x amount of time, opening and closing web pages, navigating from one page to another, etc, etc, etc. Then they arrive at a transaction page and ALL OF A SUDDEN their brain falls out of their head and they are a drooling mess, losing all reasoning and ability to read?

Sorry, doesn't fly. People are not selectively retarded.. the person who is able to find the site, navigate the site, get to the join page, succcessfully process the transaction (enter all their CC information, check boxes, uncheck boxes) doest't all of a sudden lose their brains when it comes to a xsell.

The people who can't read or who are too dumb to know anything don't ever successfully join the site. Since we are only talking about people who get their transactions processed, your statements are irrelevant.

If you are saying that there are people who are too dumb to even join a site, then I agree 100%, there are lots of them.

I have had Captcha on my join pages for about 6 years now. Complaints are lower on it than any single user login issue.

If you add a non-checked cross sale why do 10-20% of the people check it? If you add a free to free xsale (like vod) why do almost 50% take it, non-prechecked?

Why is it when you add a precheck, 80-90% of the people un-check them?

What does it mean? It means the majority, most, almost all the people read the join pages. Which is very understandable since they basically have nothing on them and any of the examples above, the xsale is above the submit button.


The problem is when they move them under the submit button. If 10-20% of the people don't read or notice prechecks, then you would have to at least double that for under the button. And that is what everone is up in arms about.

I wouldn't go that far. Consumers for the most part are stupid. Just look at the mortgage mess we're in.

In any event, cross sales are there to trick the consumer. If it was simply about getting them access to another site that they may want, they wouldn't be prechecked. The site is banking on the fact that a number of people aren't reading the fine print and too embarrased/lazy to charge back.

I personally don't have an issue with prechecked sales that are above the submit button and visible. I actually think that's less of an issue than the trial offer bullshit that some sites pull. I think the focus on xsales should be in regards to the sites and companies that are doing it unethically. Basically running credit cards or hiding the information so deep in the site that no normal consumer would ever read.

As someone who signs up for sites he promotes, I can tell you that there are a couple big sponsors who are basically committing credit card fraud. This coming from someone who looks hard for xsales when signing up. These companies are not listing anything at all and simply running the credit card for various other sites that I couldn't find even exist.

Sorry, I wrote Captcha on my join pages, that should have been login pages :)

We have always had 'some programs' doing real fraud. Some have been busted, and I'm sure some haven't. But in the end, if they keep going - they all will.

And really, if you know of people doing that. Provide screenshots, scans, and lookup the complaint boards, ect... Provide all the info you can to the DOJ/FTC and they will look into it. If they are International, most Countries have the same laws and types of Orgs to deal with this, and Interpol is even able to assist.

Real CC/Consumer Fraud, which is not what most these guys are doing, so the real stuff - can be turned over to these guys and trust me when I say, they will read it and if it's legit, they may even follow up with you.

I'm quoted in Court cases used to take down assholes in this business. Trust me, they will use the info if you give it to them.

Ya the purpose of my post was really to make the distinction between what is an ethical business practice and what isn't. I completely disagree with your statement that xsells are there to trick the consumer, that's just simply not true and the data supports it. Some people will choose ti believe that any xsell is unethical, but any rational person knows that is not the case.

Also, as a tidbit of info, the "pre-checked" or "checked" status of a xsell is not a choice made by the program, it is dictated by the processor (in the case of 3rd party processors), and that decision is based on the combined risk profiles of the sites involved.

When you see a pre-checked x-sell on the transaction page of a 3rd party processor two things are true

a) the primary site has an excellent risk profile
b) the xsell site has an excellent risk profile

With "risk profile" being a function of credits, chargebacks, etc and other bad things that would imply an inferior product.

Roald this is awesome a great step in the right direction.

Educating the surfer is the best way to keep them happy and buying porn.

I love how all of the people that support shady xsales are either employed by or profiting directly from them.

Fucking shills.

Make sure to bookmark your post, just for reference :winkwink: I still remember when Amex completely pulled billing for adult when Xpics ripped off people by billing them many months after they cancelled and other shit. Looks like some of today's smartasses didn't learn from the past.

This is a great measure. Also, the "Freeones trusted sites seal" is a must to reward honest sponsors.
Personally, I just removed all links to sponsors that have hidden xsells, but then again I dont have a fraction of your traffic.

Hmmmm...how do I with my freesites "reward" the people who pay me? There is some kinda strange logic there bro. I think the sponsor rewards the affiliate for the traffic they send. Not the other way around. It's a two way street for sure. But our sponsors are the ones that make it possible for us to even be affiliates. I'm unaware of any business anywhere that has what are basically salesmen trying to tell the company whose product they sell that they are going to "reward" them.

Says the guy who thinks return customers are unheard of...

Hey what do you know, Freeones has return customers, go figure.

As an affiliate, I can point my surfers to those sponsors that will not screw them over.
I stopped promoting most revshare sites because most of them didn't rebill. Now I know one of the reasons why.

Maybe if I knew back then about the kind of shady shit sponsors where doing to surfers,and stopped promoting them while promoting more honest sponsors, I would have seen more rebills and made more money. That's my reward right there.

Maybe "reward" isnt the right word (english is not my first language). Maybe a trusted site seal of approval or something.

not sure many know this, but you guys were the ones that invented the prechecked crossell

the difference between a precheck and a non-precheck is that the precheck your giving them something they did not ask for that they need to first notice to take out of the cart.

id guess my test of whether something is "tricky" or not is after the transaction is complete, does the consumer felt they were treated fairly

i sure wouldnt

What is with your disdain toward affiliates? This notion that affiliates should bow down to sponsors and thank them for even existing.

Fact is that traffic is king on the web. If you have good traffic, you have money and power. As for other businesses where "salesmen" are telling companies whose products they are selling that they are "rewarding" them, try Google, Yahoo, and any site on the web that sells advertising to people in one form or another.

That's how I choose to promote heavily or not too. I watch sales and rebills (I do revshare with everything) If a site sells great and rebills great...that is all I need to know. Obviously the site is good in those circumstances and the customer is satisfied. All the rest of this talk is exactly what Doc and Dollarman Steve are pointing out...a bunch of people theorizing and giving opinions and hearsay. Numbers don't lie. Bottom line. But so far, all the people who either don't own a pay program and/or have never used xsells have refused to accept that. They just keep saying over and over that they KNOW it's bad and just can't be working. Meanwhile, the guys who are doing it are making fortunes. They couldn't do that if everybody was charging back. Or even canceling. I know most people keep thinking that surfers are stupid. But as has been said repeatedly...we are ALL used to prechecked boxes on forms. They are everywhere on the internet both adult and mainstream. And everybody that signs up for a website has a credit card and a bank account. They buy stuff online all the time. They KNOW to scroll down and they KNOW to look for fine print. I just think this has all been a lot of drama and a way for Freeones to try and raise their payout again. :pimp

And what screen resolution is this "hidden" x-sale based on?

Can you give me some examples of mainstream companies that are prechecking products/services that are 3 times the amount someone is paying? You mention how this is happening in mainstream all the time but have yet to give any examples of these sites. I'd be curious to see which ones do it.

I have no disdain for affiliates. I've been one for over 10 years. And if you knew my history in the biz you'd know that I'm pretty familiar with traffic too. I'm just saying that as an affiliate I get paid by the paysite. I AM a salesman. Or if I want to flatter myself I call it "marketing". lol I didn't mean for my post to come across like I had any disdain for affiliates. I make most of my money that way and have made money with just about every program in this business. I just wouldn't have the audacity to assume that I can control what they do. Yes, I can choose what I promote and don't promote. But I can't reward them and neither can you. Not unless you are gonna start writing them checks instead of the other way around.

Can you give me any examples of our colleagues doing that? All I see are one dollar and free trials that rebill in a couple of days. I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm just saying that xsells are legal, commonly used, and have been around for almost a decade and most of you are just now noticing.

You reward them by allowing their ads to appear on your site and make them money. Reward isn't a good term for it though.

And you do have the ability to change what they do. If major sites stop promoting certain sponsors, they will adjust. That's just business. When Google comes out and says "We don't like you using the word teen on your site" when using Adwords, you bet your ass just about everyone who wants that traffic will change their site to comply.

I'm not the one claiming that this is a common practice in mainstream. You said it is and I'm asking to provide some examples since it happens "all the time". The only major company I know of that does it is Intelius and they have been torched for it.

Most registrars have upsells, I have seem them checked over the years, privacy crap auto added in, ect. Easy to spot when they have a total at the end of a shopping cart, but still.

And I some how ordered a computer pen I didn't need, I think from tigerdirect, like 2 bucks or something. I called up and they said you must have agreed to one of special offers.

Then Airlines, the entire thing is a forced upsell right up your ass.

You have great points pocketkangaroo I can only not promote them. OR, I can figure a way to demand more money to promote them. That's all I can do. I don't want to promote anybody who I think is crooked. And if I believe that they are, I simply won't promote them. But I can see with my own two eyes what is selling and what is not selling and what is rebilling or not in Stats Remote. And I see some former good selling sites that have NEVER used x-sells and their sales are in the toilet because their entire members areas are on every tube and torrent. I see other sites WITH x-sells who convert and rebill. Something has happened over the last 2 years. My TGP's have less traffic, sales for the big generic hardcore sites with the LA girls are down...What has changed? hahaha? X-sells? Or could it be that everybodies sites are ripped?
I just spent my money and my time to stop that with my paysite. And my sales are going up again. hahaha doesn't affect my sales. Xsells don't affect me. Tubes and torrents were damn sure starting to affect my paysites growth. Now we are growing again. That is my point of view from my own vantage point.

so if you get caught cheating on your wife, are you just going to tell her that "well, thats not as bad as bobby from softball who, hooks up with girls all the time"

your wife (and the people going to your site) you are responsible for

I haven't and wouldn't cheat on my wife so I can't really relate. However, if I did, I would simply ask her to join in.

Anyway, I was simply providing examples for the gents above. My view on this is pretty clear, just read the first page.


Then if anyone feels I'm wrong, well I'm always here so have at it.

so if you kill somebody, is your defence going to be "well shit, your honor, pol pot killed millions of people in cambodia and nothing happened to him, no idea why you are hassling me"

i can find any practice and parallel it with something else, no matter how bad. im good at this, try me.

somebody should throw some of these webmasters in a room with their "customers" see how long they survive