How can Destiny and Free Will co-exist? - GoFuckYourself.com

TheFLY · 10-12-2002, 10:59 PM

I'm curious what you think...

Carrie · 10-12-2002, 11:02 PM

If you believe in Destiny, then you probably believe in past lives and lessons learned, lessons still to be learned.
You can be put here with a "Destiny" - a lesson to be learned... but if you still make the wrong choices (based on things leftover in your 'persona' or 'soul' from past lives), then you don't meet your destiny and you'll have to do it all over again...

Hmm. That was sober. If I were drunk I could probably give you something more flamboyant and interesting, but I don't get drunk.

pr0 · 10-12-2002, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Carrie
If you believe in Destiny, then you probably believe in past lives and lessons learned, lessons still to be learned.
You can be put here with a "Destiny" - a lesson to be learned... but if you still make the wrong choices (based on things leftover in your 'persona' or 'soul' from past lives), then you don't meet your destiny and you'll have to do it all over again...

Hmm. That was sober. If I were drunk I could probably give you something more flamboyant and interesting, but I don't get drunk.

stevo · 10-12-2002, 11:13 PM

According to Google - Google is never wrong...

As it is, we are bound by our own past. At the same time we are free to act as we will. Freedom and bondage seem to coexist in all of us. We are like the driver of a train. We can drive the train to wherever we please (free-will) but our movement is restricted by the tracks (destiny) laid down already. Both free-will and destiny play an important role in every action. Free-will is an independent variable and destiny is dependent and it is binding. The independent element is the purushartha or self-effort. The dependent element is the prarabdha or destiny. We are free to choose our action but every action is also subject to the influence of self-effort and destiny. We should recognize that the consequence of our action depends both on the self-effort and our destiny. Our present destiny or fate is the result of our past actions in the past. Our prarabdha is the sum total of our past purusharthas. Our destiny is the effect caused by our past self-effort. If our self-efforts in the past have all been positive, our present destiny will be positive. If they have been negative, our destiny will be negative. Our destiny is proportional to our self-efforts.

Read the whole essay here:
http://www.geocities.com/advaitins/LawofKarma.html

Firehorse · 10-12-2002, 11:19 PM

Destiny and free wiill,

Like a hand of cards.

Destiny is the hand of cards you are dealt,
free will is the way you play them.

Nedder · 10-12-2002, 11:20 PM

RUSH kicks ass

NZ

TheFLY · 10-12-2002, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevo
According to Google - Google is never wrong...

As it is, we are bound by our own past. At the same time we are free to act as we will. Freedom and bondage seem to coexist in all of us. We are like the driver of a train. We can drive the train to wherever we please (free-will) but our movement is restricted by the tracks (destiny) laid down already. Both free-will and destiny play an important role in every action. Free-will is an independent variable and destiny is dependent and it is binding. The independent element is the purushartha or self-effort. The dependent element is the prarabdha or destiny. We are free to choose our action but every action is also subject to the influence of self-effort and destiny. We should recognize that the consequence of our action depends both on the self-effort and our destiny. Our present destiny or fate is the result of our past actions in the past. Our prarabdha is the sum total of our past purusharthas. Our destiny is the effect caused by our past self-effort. If our self-efforts in the past have all been positive, our present destiny will be positive. If they have been negative, our destiny will be negative. Our destiny is proportional to our self-efforts.

I can go with some of that -- but there are flaws. The main flaw is here "our destiny is the effect caused by our past self-effort" -- you can't have a destiny based on time! As you have said -- destiny is the tracks -- the infinite line of time... Destiny is the now and forever. Your quote starts out ok -- but toward the end it falls apart with an internal conflict. You can't describe destiny in terms of past positive effort and past negative effort -- that's silly. There is only one DESTINY -- it's effortless. Proportional? -- blah -- bullshit. How can you not exert effort on Destiny?

theking · 10-12-2002, 11:39 PM

Free will does not exist. Ever heard of the id?

UnseenWorld · 10-12-2002, 11:53 PM

Here's an even deeper conundrum which shows that the whole idea of free will is nonsense anyway:

1) Our actions are determined by our brain and nervous system which are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry. These laws are deterministic, so everything we do is determined in the sense that the only way we could possibly do anything other than what we do would be through the existence of a different set of physical conditions both in our bodies and outside them (in the antecedent conditions leading up to our current state).

2) Some people argue from our knowledge of subatomic physics that the aforementioned description is inadequate due to utterly random subatomic events that can have ripple effects in the everyday world of the senses.

So, are our actions determined by inviolable and irrestible physical laws, or are they determined by chaotic random events that break and disrupt these deterministic chains?

And, no matter what the answer, where the HELL is freedom in there?

Firehorse · 10-12-2002, 11:59 PM

"With our thoughts we make the world." - The Buddha

UnseenWorld · 10-13-2002, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Firehorse
"With our thoughts we make the world." - The Buddha

A thought is a brain state.

TheFLY · 10-13-2002, 12:07 AM

This is what I think... and what I don't think...

Just because you can make a choice -- does not mean that you can life multiple lives. As far as I know I can only experience one universe at a time -- I'm really not away of there being parallel universes... As far as I know, I can only experience one destiny no matter how many choices or how much Will I exert (if Will can be variable). I don't think Free Will can influence Destiny and I don't think Destiny can influence Free Will -- they must be exactly the same thing. If I make a choice -- that is, was, and always has been destined -- yet a choice was still made. When you become aware of this -- you may descibe it as Deja Vu...? Does that mean that we have created the universe by virtue of having a will? The problem with the word "created" is that it suggest there being elapsed time. Because every man and woman has a will -- that makes destiny very complex... full of interference, variants... if agreement and conflict were waves, agreement may be resonation and conflict may be interference... in nature there are variants of resonation -- harmonic approximations of mathematical perfection... a seashell, a flower, a howl in the wind... If destiny is infinite -- then this wave may not only reach from A to B (infinite distance) -- but from A to B to C (all space) -- -- but also to A to B to C to T, always and forever (all space-time).

TheFLY · 10-13-2002, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by UnseenWorld
Here's an even deeper conundrum which shows that the whole idea of free will is nonsense anyway:

1) Our actions are determined by our brain and nervous system which are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry. These laws are deterministic, so everything we do is determined in the sense that the only way we could possibly do anything other than what we do would be through the existence of a different set of physical conditions both in our bodies and outside them (in the antecedent conditions leading up to our current state).

2) Some people argue from our knowledge of subatomic physics that the aforementioned description is inadequate due to utterly random subatomic events that can have ripple effects in the everyday world of the senses.

So, are our actions determined by inviolable and irrestible physical laws, or are they determined by chaotic random events that break and disrupt these deterministic chains?

And, no matter what the answer, where the HELL is freedom in there?

3) We can exert Will over the chaos, at the subatomic level... perhaps that's where the miracle of the creation of action originates... every action must be created from nothing -- why can't we believe that a Will could be the act of creation.

pimplink · 10-13-2002, 12:11 AM

If followed purely, they would logically cancel out each other. Unless of course, you read "destiny" as "prediction". If so, you can exercise free will but your destiny [ie., the products of your free choices] has been predicted. If this is the case then they can coexist.

TheFLY · 10-13-2002, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by UnseenWorld

A thought is a brain state.

Yes, but how can a thought or matter or anything be "un-stated"...

If it is stated, it exists in a state.
If it exists, it is stated in existance.
etc. etc.

10-13-2002, 12:19 AM

free porn for all. that's for sure.

Backov · 10-13-2002, 12:22 AM

They can't. Free will is an illusion. For there to be free will there must be randomness.

Don't quote Chaos Theory to me - the uncertainty principle says that by observing something, we change it, not that some things can't be predicted. Randomness, also, doesn't exist.

Interestingly, the lack of randomness has a corrollary - with no randomness, there is no infinity, except as an arbitrary mathematical term - therefore, there is no infinite universe.

Anyway, very deep discussion to go into on a board with so many nitwits on it. (Most present company excluded)

Cheers,
Backov

TheFLY · 10-13-2002, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pimplink
If followed purely, they would logically cancel out each other. Unless of course, you read "destiny" as "prediction". If so, you can exercise free will but your destiny [ie., the products of your free choices] has been predicted. If this is the case then they can coexist.

Wow very fucking cool.

...but still you have the "pre" in prediction -- which suggests pre-determination if there is something to predict -- which suggests a knowing in the past -- a knowing "beforehand"... Before what? Before time? Doesn't make sense...

I think the only way to understand Destiny is to describe it as an infinite Now... now is determined. I think the word forever is kindof cool -- does it suggest the "fore" (before) and "ever" (after) as one?

TheFLY · 10-13-2002, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Backov
with no randomness, there is no infinity, except as an arbitrary mathematical term - therefore, there is no infinite universe.

Where's the connection between randomness and infinity? Do I have to observe infinity for it to exist?

What are your references for this... I'm very interested.

pimplink · 10-13-2002, 12:35 AM

Hmmmm, this reminds me of a lecture during a Physics class I took a long time ago. If I remember correctly, the problem with an "eternal now" is the concept of space. If you are not moving in space, then the "eternal now" is possible. But the moment you start moving, the notion of "time" is introduced since "time" is a measurement of movement in space. The "eternal now" has been splintered between "before" and "after" as measured in space.

Quote:

Originally posted by TheFLY

Wow very fucking cool.

...but still you have the "pre" in prediction -- which suggests pre-determination if there is something to predict -- which suggests a knowing in the past -- a knowing "beforehand"... Before what? Before time? Doesn't make sense...

I think the only way to understand Destiny is to describe it as an infinite Now... now is determined. I think the word forever is kindof cool -- does it suggest the "fore" (before) and "ever" (after) as one?

Backov · 10-13-2002, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheFLY

Where's the connection between randomness and infinity? Do I have to observe infinity for it to exist?

What are your references for this... I'm very interested. [/B]

I thought ya might call me on this. Unfortunately these debates I had far in the past, and I've forgotten the "proof" as it were, but basically in mathematics Infinity and Randomness are inextricably linked..

Pi is a good example.. It has an unknown amount of numbers after the decimal point. If it's an infinite amount of decimals (ie, the pattern never repeats - it hasn't yet) then it's a true random number generator and proves randomnes. However, for this to be true, the amount of numbers has to be infinite (no repititous pattern)..

Poor explanation, but as I said, I've lost the base reasoning behind it, it was many years ago that I did debate and reflection on this.

Cheers,
Backov

ADL Colin · 10-13-2002, 07:40 AM

"How can Destiny and Free Will co-exist?"

Thinking feels like "free will" but might not be.

Destiny is a stripper that I think I will feel.

B40 · 10-13-2002, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheFLY
I'm curious what you think...

Got a philosophy paper due eh.

Krome · 10-13-2002, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by B40

Got a philosophy paper due eh.

Fly do not worry I will help you with your philosophy paper this question is easy.

In Star Wars it was Luke Skywalker's 'destiny' to join his father and rule the galaxy as father and son..However Luke used his 'free will' and kicked the shit and ending up pretty much fucking up galactic domination expansion plans....

Libertine · 10-13-2002, 09:50 AM

Since this is one of the most asked questions in philosophy, naturally I have spend quite a bit of time studying it. Obviously, there is no single proved-to-be-true answer yet, but a lot of interesting attempts have been made.
If I have time today or tomorrow, I'll post a little bit about it, explaining a bit more of the views of Kant, Frankfurt and Dworkins, who have done quite a bit of work showing the two principles might in fact be able to co-exist.

Schwick · 10-13-2002, 09:58 AM

Destiny and Free Will exist as one.

The question is how can Fate and Free Will co-exist?

12clicks · 10-13-2002, 11:05 AM

Destiny is what you grasp with your free will

pimplink · 10-13-2002, 12:33 PM

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For essay help getting into law school or MBA/grad school or college, go to http://admissionsessays.com

Krome · 10-13-2002, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks
Destiny is what you grasp with your free will

I like that one...it goes along the same lines of you creating your own destiny with your free will....although yours is worded better...

UnseenWorld · 10-13-2002, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheFLY

3) We can exert Will over the chaos, at the subatomic level... perhaps that's where the miracle of the creation of action originates... every action must be created from nothing -- why can't we believe that a Will could be the act of creation.

I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean we can master the subatomic level in any way resembling "control" (and without control, what could "freedom" be freedom to do?), that is absurd, for if subatomic events can be controlled, then they are not random, but random is what they are.

I believe the universe had to "just happen" in order for it to have a beginning, for if something preexisted the Universe (God or whatever), then no beginning really happened, just a change or transformation. A real beginning to the universe would imply that nothing (not even God) existed, not even time itself. Then (whatever that might mean in a state in which there is no time), the universe sprang into existence. At any rate, we'll never have an answer to the riddle of the beginning, so myth might as well do.

pimplink · 10-13-2002, 09:43 PM

Hmmmm Im not sure if there is an ABSOLUTE beginning since Stephen Hawking was saying that there's recent theories of multiple or repeating Big Bangs.......

Quote:

Originally posted by UnseenWorld

I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean we can master the subatomic level in any way resembling "control" (and without control, what could "freedom" be freedom to do?), that is absurd, for if subatomic events can be controlled, then they are not random, but random is what they are.

I believe the universe had to "just happen" in order for it to have a beginning, for if something preexisted the Universe (God or whatever), then no beginning really happened, just a change or transformation. A real beginning to the universe would imply that nothing (not even God) existed, not even time itself. Then (whatever that might mean in a state in which there is no time), the universe sprang into existence. At any rate, we'll never have an answer to the riddle of the beginning, so myth might as well do.

UnseenWorld · 10-13-2002, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pimplink
Hmmmm, this reminds me of a lecture during a Physics class I took a long time ago. If I remember correctly, the problem with an "eternal now" is the concept of space. If you are not moving in space, then the "eternal now" is possible. But the moment you start moving, the notion of "time" is introduced since "time" is a measurement of movement in space. The "eternal now" has been splintered between "before" and "after" as measured in space.

Time is a function of change (motion or otherwise). Actually, time is an indefinable concept, a given that we need to understand without definition. Also, there's more than one notion of time: physical time is one, psychological time the other. One is a function of physicality (if nothing moves or happens, there is no time), the other a function of perception and attention (when we're bored, time slows down, when something interesting or exciting is going on, time flashes by).

UnseenWorld · 10-13-2002, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pimplink
Hmmmm Im not sure if there is an ABSOLUTE beginning since Stephen Hawking was saying that there's recent theories of multiple or repeating Big Bangs.......

The problem with that is that such a notion is purely theoretical. The Big Bang involved EVERYTHING, so there will be no note in a bottle telling us what happened before The Big Bang. Thus it's kind of nonsensical to even wonder about it.

pimplink · 10-13-2002, 09:55 PM

Okay, this is getting interesting again...

This division between physical or empirical time and psychological or essential time is similar to the old Philsophy 101 question of "If a tree fell in the woods and no one is there to hear it, did it really fall" question.

Applying that rubric, physical time exists if there are measurable or comparable elements to "prove" its existence--this is the Aristotlean school. The emprical Aristotlean would say that since the tree fell without anyone hearing/seeing it...for all intents and purposes it did not fall.

The other side of the equation re psychological time is the Platonists. To them, the IDEA of reality MAKES it real. Hence, if we accept the reality of time ....even if NOTHING is happening, time still exists... it exists in a vacuum ...in an essence. Similar to the tree falling in the forest with no observer. The fact that there is no observer does not destroy the reality of its fall.

Quote:

Originally posted by UnseenWorld

Also, there's more than one notion of time: physical time is one, psychological time the other. One is a function of physicality (if nothing moves or happens, there is no time), the other a function of perception and attention (when we're bored, time slows down, when something interesting or exciting is going on, time flashes by).

edmo · 10-13-2002, 11:20 PM

If we were to remove this mythical form of "Destiny" you would destroy all of your problems.

According to Webster destiny is:
"That to which any person or thing is destined; predetermined state; condition foreordained by the Divine or by human will; fate; lot; doom."

If you believe that the natural destiny for human life is death, then it is simple to understand that you may experince free will during the course of your life but that your destiny is the grave.

If you believe that each person has a little map of how their lives are predetermined then your basing your argument on the unproven, unreal, and untrue.

There's a really good book I read on Quantum events, random vs pseudorandom, and how the mind works. I think it should answer or point you in the right direction.

The Quantum Brain

FiReC · 10-13-2002, 11:23 PM

the path you choose (free will) leads to your destiny

UnseenWorld · 10-14-2002, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pimplink
Okay, this is getting interesting again...

This division between physical or empirical time and psychological or essential time is similar to the old Philsophy 101 question of "If a tree fell in the woods and no one is there to hear it, did it really fall" question.

Applying that rubric, physical time exists if there are measurable or comparable elements to "prove" its existence--this is the Aristotlean school. The emprical Aristotlean would say that since the tree fell without anyone hearing/seeing it...for all intents and purposes it did not fall.

The other side of the equation re psychological time is the Platonists. To them, the IDEA of reality MAKES it real. Hence, if we accept the reality of time ....even if NOTHING is happening, time still exists... it exists in a vacuum ...in an essence. Similar to the tree falling in the forest with no observer. The fact that there is no observer does not destroy the reality of its fall.

The question about the falling tree is similar because it depends on how you define "sound." If you define sound as atmospheric waves within certain delimiting frequencies, then of course a falling tree makes a sound. If you define sound as a perception, then it may be that a tree falls making no sound.

Plato divided the world up into two spheres, one unreal and subject to change (and therefor time), the other real and immutable and timeless. Of course, Plato defined reality as timeless because he (being the anal being he was) thought that a world where things happened was dreadfully untidy and a world where everything stayed where it belonged, never changed, never decayed, and never fell out of existence had something seriously wrong with it. So, an imaginary world seemed a much better candidate for Ultimate Reality.

Of course, this runs contrary to the meaning of "reality" most of us use in our everyday lives.

UnseenWorld · 10-14-2002, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FiReC
the path you choose (free will) leads to your destiny

But search as you will, you'll never find that you are free. It's a feeling you have, and you are free (unfettered) to choose what you wish, but can you freely choose what you want or do you HAVE to want it because you are you and given your options, and all things being equal, you'd ALWAYS make that choice?

ADL Colin · 10-14-2002, 02:12 AM

I don't believe in destiny one bit. Nada. I don't believe that anything is predetermined. How would the Universe act in such a way that there is destiny?

Since I don't believe in a god or any other higher power that argument is already ruled out for me. I don't believe there is a master of us puppets.

Dragon Curve · 10-14-2002, 02:41 AM

Agreed collin.

ADL Colin · 10-14-2002, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dragon Curve
Agreed collin.

That's our first time. Let's try it again by the end of the week.

pimplink · 10-16-2002, 10:19 PM

Recent research indicates that the FEELING of choice comes AFTER you've acted.

Trippy stuff: http://www.plastic.com/article.html?...1121313;cmt=15

DieselJean · 10-16-2002, 11:09 PM

You are all basing your imput on your physical ability of perception. We are not capable of perceiving the universe for what it is. Until we evolve past the 5 basic Neanderthal senses these questions will go unanswered.

This is a timely thread for me. Lately I've been doing affirmations daily in an attempt to steer my subconscious to a successful future. Mostly I focus on getting more sign ups.

Someone said they talk to their stats. Well that might just work. Anyone do crazy stuff like that? Have you noticed changes?

My opinion now, TheFly = Cool

MarkTiarra · 10-17-2002, 12:25 AM

FireHorse, I'm with ya man. =]

Deisel... Yes, I spent many years studying physics (particularly String Theory) and began to discover that science was quantifying and proving the very old and simple teachings which simply say that consciousness creates reality. The world you experience is the result of your thoughts and beliefs. I'm not going to go into what that's meant or done for me because it'll sound hokey but once I chose to accept it I found rather amazing things happening.

In any case if ya'll want some interesting reading on the topic at hand... I always take bits and peices from each thing I read and look for the common truths they share...

Holographic Universe:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...13569?v=glance

Seth Speaks
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...lance&n=507846

Elegant Universe
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/se...843628-6413569

And this one which might be a stretch for some close-minded people but you try the techniques in it and they flat out work and you find yourself saying I guess it aint so weird after all:

Creating Money
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...843628-6413569

One of the unfortunate things about some good truthful teachings is that they come from people who have let go of pretense and thus have problems communicating to the "normal" world of people who are still so wrapped up in thinking their brain/mind is who they are, that the lessons get dismissed as new age fluff. This is why I had to go the route of science first... my ego-center wouldn't let me believe anything till I saw some numbers. =]

MarkTiarra · 10-17-2002, 11:09 AM

I can't possibly be the last one to have anything to say on this topic. That's just... not proper. =]

ADL Colin · 10-17-2002, 11:19 AM

Mark,

I studied physics and didn't find that.

I suspect to get blind-sided any moment now with "you're close minded" but then rest assured I'll fight back with "it sounds hokey!"

Anyway, there are enough philosophical and religious beliefs in the world's history than anything science discovers will be similar enough in appearances to something else and these coincidences will turn larger than life.

A good example is saying the Greeks discovered atoms because Leucippus conjectured that all matter was made of small indivisible bodies. Leucippus didn't have a damned clue. It was a lucky guess.

Some people see this coincidence as "amazing" but I think it nothing of the sort.

MarkTiarra · 10-17-2002, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Colin

Anyway, there are enough philosophical and religious beliefs in the world's history than anything science discovers will be similar enough in appearances to something else and these coincidences will turn larger than life.

I might buy into that in my own experience if I had gone into scientific research with a preconceived idea of what I wanted to prove. But instead I was just trying to see where it led me. One thing I will say is that there is never a time I hold any belief of mine as absolute. So what I think I "get" today I leave room for the fact that I may be totally mistaken.

But this is what I do know: I'm here. I want to enjoy life and be happy. I have discovered some things and hold some current notions that have led me to view the world in the way I do and to try to create my reality in the way I do and these thoughts and beliefs are making a much better quality of life for me. So if they're wrong... well I guess I'll eventually find out. But for now life has been getting better and better... experimental evidence in my own life is suggesting that what I'm learning and believing has some validity and I'm not hurting anyone else along the way.

Is there a better method to be had?

ADL Colin · 10-17-2002, 11:46 AM

Mark, I'm curious. What preconceived notions did you not have before studying physics? I mean, did you read Tao of Physics before or after studying physics? In what way did you study strings theory?

You mean you studied string theory with a serious study of quantum field theory or you read descriptions of string theory by big name authors? Not that I knock the latter - as an undergrad I studied no quantum field theory and really don't know much about it. Hell, who wants to do that for FUN? ;-)

Let's be fair. Give me some reading assignments from the web on the subject matter you are discussing (you know, the hokey stuff) so we are on common ground and I know what you mean.

I am taking off for the night but back tomorrow to come play. See ya then, old friend. :-)

MarkTiarra · 10-17-2002, 05:53 PM

Right then I should expand my explanation considering that it is indeed not possible to have NO preconceived notions. My point was that I wasn't going into it trying to prove a belief but rather to try and find one that made any sense.

As to your question on the Tao of Physics... I own a copy but haven't read it in full as of yet. I don't recall when I looked at it last but it was somewhere around when I ran into the "laymen" writings on String Theory such as Elegant Universe.

As to your question on reading material of the possibly "hokey" nature, check up the thread, I did include links.

As for literature on more detailed scientific and serious scientific explanations of deeper physics issues...

General: http://www.theory.caltech.edu/people/jhs/strings/

Summarial (See bib at end for more detailed material): http://theory.tifr.res.in/~mukhi/Physics/string2.html

Greater detail if a bit dated: http://xxx.lanl.gov/PS_cache/hep-th/...06/9706132.pdf

Is this what you were requesting?

ADL Colin · 10-18-2002, 02:23 AM

Hi Mark :-)

What I was interested in is links to readings on how physics "was quantifying and proving the very old and simple teachings which simply say that consciousness creates reality". The physics stuff I can get kinda fast but I might be a little slow on the other half.

Maybe we should just start woth Q and A ...

What do you mean by consciousness?

How does it create reality?

What does this have to do with physics?

10-12-2002, 10:59 PM	#1
TheFLY So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: http://www.thefly.net/ --- Quit your job and live off steady traffic. Posts: 11,856	How can Destiny and Free Will co-exist? I'm curious what you think...

10-12-2002, 11:19 PM	#5
Firehorse Desire it and have it!!! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: www.fuckwithfire.com ICQ 512915 Posts: 30,767	Destiny and free wiill, Like a hand of cards. Destiny is the hand of cards you are dealt, free will is the way you play them. __________________ MySweetEbony

10-12-2002, 11:39 PM	#8
theking Nice Kitty Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The good old USA!!! Posts: 21,053	Free will does not exist. Ever heard of the id? __________________ When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me! FOR THE LYING LOWLIFE POSTING AS PATHFINDER...https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-pr...athfinder.html

10-12-2002, 11:53 PM	#9
UnseenWorld Confirmed User Join Date: May 2001 Location: Portland, OR, USA Posts: 5,279	Here's an even deeper conundrum which shows that the whole idea of free will is nonsense anyway: 1) Our actions are determined by our brain and nervous system which are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry. These laws are deterministic, so everything we do is determined in the sense that the only way we could possibly do anything other than what we do would be through the existence of a different set of physical conditions both in our bodies and outside them (in the antecedent conditions leading up to our current state). 2) Some people argue from our knowledge of subatomic physics that the aforementioned description is inadequate due to utterly random subatomic events that can have ripple effects in the everyday world of the senses. So, are our actions determined by inviolable and irrestible physical laws, or are they determined by chaotic random events that break and disrupt these deterministic chains? And, no matter what the answer, where the HELL is freedom in there? __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60. Last edited by UnseenWorld; 10-12-2002 at 11:55 PM..

10-12-2002, 11:59 PM	#10
Firehorse Desire it and have it!!! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: www.fuckwithfire.com ICQ 512915 Posts: 30,767	"With our thoughts we make the world." - The Buddha __________________ MySweetEbony

10-12-2002, 11:02 PM	#2
Carrie Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Virgin - nee Posts: 3,162	If you believe in Destiny, then you probably believe in past lives and lessons learned, lessons still to be learned. You can be put here with a "Destiny" - a lesson to be learned... but if you still make the wrong choices (based on things leftover in your 'persona' or 'soul' from past lives), then you don't meet your destiny and you'll have to do it all over again... Hmm. That was sober. If I were drunk I could probably give you something more flamboyant and interesting, but I don't get drunk.

10-12-2002, 11:13 PM	#4
stevo Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Orlando, Florida Posts: 2,051	According to Google - Google is never wrong... As it is, we are bound by our own past. At the same time we are free to act as we will. Freedom and bondage seem to coexist in all of us. We are like the driver of a train. We can drive the train to wherever we please (free-will) but our movement is restricted by the tracks (destiny) laid down already. Both free-will and destiny play an important role in every action. Free-will is an independent variable and destiny is dependent and it is binding. The independent element is the purushartha or self-effort. The dependent element is the prarabdha or destiny. We are free to choose our action but every action is also subject to the influence of self-effort and destiny. We should recognize that the consequence of our action depends both on the self-effort and our destiny. Our present destiny or fate is the result of our past actions in the past. Our prarabdha is the sum total of our past purusharthas. Our destiny is the effect caused by our past self-effort. If our self-efforts in the past have all been positive, our present destiny will be positive. If they have been negative, our destiny will be negative. Our destiny is proportional to our self-efforts. Read the whole essay here: http://www.geocities.com/advaitins/LawofKarma.html

10-12-2002, 11:20 PM	#6
Nedder Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 555	RUSH kicks ass NZ

10-13-2002, 12:07 AM	#12
TheFLY So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: http://www.thefly.net/ --- Quit your job and live off steady traffic. Posts: 11,856	This is what I think... and what I don't think... Just because you can make a choice -- does not mean that you can life multiple lives. As far as I know I can only experience one universe at a time -- I'm really not away of there being parallel universes... As far as I know, I can only experience one destiny no matter how many choices or how much Will I exert (if Will can be variable). I don't think Free Will can influence Destiny and I don't think Destiny can influence Free Will -- they must be exactly the same thing. If I make a choice -- that is, was, and always has been destined -- yet a choice was still made. When you become aware of this -- you may descibe it as Deja Vu...? Does that mean that we have created the universe by virtue of having a will? The problem with the word "created" is that it suggest there being elapsed time. Because every man and woman has a will -- that makes destiny very complex... full of interference, variants... if agreement and conflict were waves, agreement may be resonation and conflict may be interference... in nature there are variants of resonation -- harmonic approximations of mathematical perfection... a seashell, a flower, a howl in the wind... If destiny is infinite -- then this wave may not only reach from A to B (infinite distance) -- but from A to B to C (all space) -- -- but also to A to B to C to T, always and forever (all space-time).

10-13-2002, 12:11 AM	#14
pimplink Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Closer than you think Posts: 9,535	If followed purely, they would logically cancel out each other. Unless of course, you read "destiny" as "prediction". If so, you can exercise free will but your destiny [ie., the products of your free choices] has been predicted. If this is the case then they can coexist.

10-13-2002, 12:19 AM	#16
X37375787 Guest Posts: n/a	free porn for all. that's for sure.

10-13-2002, 12:22 AM	#17
Backov Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Cat Detector Van Posts: 1,600	They can't. Free will is an illusion. For there to be free will there must be randomness. Don't quote Chaos Theory to me - the uncertainty principle says that by observing something, we change it, not that some things can't be predicted. Randomness, also, doesn't exist. Interestingly, the lack of randomness has a corrollary - with no randomness, there is no infinity, except as an arbitrary mathematical term - therefore, there is no infinite universe. Anyway, very deep discussion to go into on a board with so many nitwits on it. (Most present company excluded) Cheers, Backov __________________ <embed src="http://banners.spotbrokers.com/button.swf" FlashVars="clickURL=http://banners.spotbrokers.com" quality=high pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="120" height="60"></embed>

10-13-2002, 07:40 AM	#22
ADL Colin Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Tube Titans, USA Posts: 11,929	"How can Destiny and Free Will co-exist?" Thinking feels like "free will" but might not be. Destiny is a stripper that I think I will feel. __________________ Adult Date Link - $50 PPS starting NOW! -- good and JUICY! skype = "adultdatelink"

10-13-2002, 09:50 AM	#25
Libertine sex dwarf Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 17,860	Since this is one of the most asked questions in philosophy, naturally I have spend quite a bit of time studying it. Obviously, there is no single proved-to-be-true answer yet, but a lot of interesting attempts have been made. If I have time today or tomorrow, I'll post a little bit about it, explaining a bit more of the views of Kant, Frankfurt and Dworkins, who have done quite a bit of work showing the two principles might in fact be able to co-exist. __________________ /(bb\|[^b]{2})/

10-13-2002, 09:58 AM	#26
Schwick Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Right here, right now. Posts: 543	Destiny and Free Will exist as one. The question is how can Fate and Free Will co-exist?

10-13-2002, 11:05 AM	#27
12clicks Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: God's right hand Posts: 19,789	Destiny is what you grasp with your free will __________________ I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

10-13-2002, 12:33 PM	#28
pimplink Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Closer than you think Posts: 9,535	For termpaper help, go to http://cyberessays.com For essay help getting into law school or MBA/grad school or college, go to http://admissionsessays.com

10-13-2002, 11:20 PM	#35
edmo Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SanHo Posts: 359	If we were to remove this mythical form of "Destiny" you would destroy all of your problems. According to Webster destiny is: "That to which any person or thing is destined; predetermined state; condition foreordained by the Divine or by human will; fate; lot; doom." If you believe that the natural destiny for human life is death, then it is simple to understand that you may experince free will during the course of your life but that your destiny is the grave. If you believe that each person has a little map of how their lives are predetermined then your basing your argument on the unproven, unreal, and untrue. There's a really good book I read on Quantum events, random vs pseudorandom, and how the mind works. I think it should answer or point you in the right direction. The Quantum Brain

10-13-2002, 11:23 PM	#36
FiReC Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Land o Nubiles Posts: 2,350	the path you choose (free will) leads to your destiny __________________ www.nubilefilms.com \| www.nubiles.net \| www.anilos.com \| tubescript.nubiles.net \| icq4162727

10-14-2002, 02:12 AM	#39
ADL Colin Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Tube Titans, USA Posts: 11,929	I don't believe in destiny one bit. Nada. I don't believe that anything is predetermined. How would the Universe act in such a way that there is destiny? Since I don't believe in a god or any other higher power that argument is already ruled out for me. I don't believe there is a master of us puppets. __________________ Adult Date Link - $50 PPS starting NOW! -- good and JUICY! skype = "adultdatelink"

10-14-2002, 02:41 AM	#40
Dragon Curve Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 252	Agreed collin.

10-16-2002, 10:19 PM	#42
pimplink Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Closer than you think Posts: 9,535	Recent research indicates that the FEELING of choice comes AFTER you've acted. Trippy stuff: http://www.plastic.com/article.html?...1121313;cmt=15

10-16-2002, 11:09 PM	#43
DieselJean Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 89	You are all basing your imput on your physical ability of perception. We are not capable of perceiving the universe for what it is. Until we evolve past the 5 basic Neanderthal senses these questions will go unanswered. This is a timely thread for me. Lately I've been doing affirmations daily in an attempt to steer my subconscious to a successful future. Mostly I focus on getting more sign ups. Someone said they talk to their stats. Well that might just work. Anyone do crazy stuff like that? Have you noticed changes? My opinion now, TheFly = Cool __________________

10-17-2002, 12:25 AM	#44
MarkTiarra Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: NJ Posts: 3,833	FireHorse, I'm with ya man. =] Deisel... Yes, I spent many years studying physics (particularly String Theory) and began to discover that science was quantifying and proving the very old and simple teachings which simply say that consciousness creates reality. The world you experience is the result of your thoughts and beliefs. I'm not going to go into what that's meant or done for me because it'll sound hokey but once I chose to accept it I found rather amazing things happening. In any case if ya'll want some interesting reading on the topic at hand... I always take bits and peices from each thing I read and look for the common truths they share... Holographic Universe: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...13569?v=glance Seth Speaks http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...lance&n=507846 Elegant Universe http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/se...843628-6413569 And this one which might be a stretch for some close-minded people but you try the techniques in it and they flat out work and you find yourself saying I guess it aint so weird after all: Creating Money http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...843628-6413569 One of the unfortunate things about some good truthful teachings is that they come from people who have let go of pretense and thus have problems communicating to the "normal" world of people who are still so wrapped up in thinking their brain/mind is who they are, that the lessons get dismissed as new age fluff. This is why I had to go the route of science first... my ego-center wouldn't let me believe anything till I saw some numbers. =] __________________ Retired Pornosticator Last edited by MarkTiarra; 10-17-2002 at 12:27 AM..

10-17-2002, 11:09 AM	#45
MarkTiarra Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: NJ Posts: 3,833	I can't possibly be the last one to have anything to say on this topic. That's just... not proper. =] __________________ Retired Pornosticator

10-17-2002, 11:19 AM	#46
ADL Colin Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Tube Titans, USA Posts: 11,929	Mark, I studied physics and didn't find that. I suspect to get blind-sided any moment now with "you're close minded" but then rest assured I'll fight back with "it sounds hokey!" Anyway, there are enough philosophical and religious beliefs in the world's history than anything science discovers will be similar enough in appearances to something else and these coincidences will turn larger than life. A good example is saying the Greeks discovered atoms because Leucippus conjectured that all matter was made of small indivisible bodies. Leucippus didn't have a damned clue. It was a lucky guess. Some people see this coincidence as "amazing" but I think it nothing of the sort. __________________ Adult Date Link - $50 PPS starting NOW! -- good and JUICY! skype = "adultdatelink" Last edited by ADL Colin; 10-17-2002 at 11:26 AM..

10-17-2002, 11:46 AM	#48
ADL Colin Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Tube Titans, USA Posts: 11,929	Mark, I'm curious. What preconceived notions did you not have before studying physics? I mean, did you read Tao of Physics before or after studying physics? In what way did you study strings theory? You mean you studied string theory with a serious study of quantum field theory or you read descriptions of string theory by big name authors? Not that I knock the latter - as an undergrad I studied no quantum field theory and really don't know much about it. Hell, who wants to do that for FUN? ;-) Let's be fair. Give me some reading assignments from the web on the subject matter you are discussing (you know, the hokey stuff) so we are on common ground and I know what you mean. I am taking off for the night but back tomorrow to come play. See ya then, old friend. :-) __________________ Adult Date Link - $50 PPS starting NOW! -- good and JUICY! skype = "adultdatelink"

10-17-2002, 05:53 PM	#49
MarkTiarra Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: NJ Posts: 3,833	Right then I should expand my explanation considering that it is indeed not possible to have NO preconceived notions. My point was that I wasn't going into it trying to prove a belief but rather to try and find one that made any sense. As to your question on the Tao of Physics... I own a copy but haven't read it in full as of yet. I don't recall when I looked at it last but it was somewhere around when I ran into the "laymen" writings on String Theory such as Elegant Universe. As to your question on reading material of the possibly "hokey" nature, check up the thread, I did include links. As for literature on more detailed scientific and serious scientific explanations of deeper physics issues... General: http://www.theory.caltech.edu/people/jhs/strings/ Summarial (See bib at end for more detailed material): http://theory.tifr.res.in/~mukhi/Physics/string2.html Greater detail if a bit dated: http://xxx.lanl.gov/PS_cache/hep-th/...06/9706132.pdf Is this what you were requesting? __________________ Retired Pornosticator

10-18-2002, 02:23 AM	#50
ADL Colin Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Tube Titans, USA Posts: 11,929	Hi Mark :-) What I was interested in is links to readings on how physics "was quantifying and proving the very old and simple teachings which simply say that consciousness creates reality". The physics stuff I can get kinda fast but I might be a little slow on the other half. Maybe we should just start woth Q and A ... What do you mean by consciousness? How does it create reality? What does this have to do with physics? __________________ Adult Date Link - $50 PPS starting NOW! -- good and JUICY! skype = "adultdatelink"