Why are you complaining, there's an easy solution to the tube problem...

[MaDalton]

don't offer your exclusive videos as download, use real streaming only

doesn't work for DVD rips, but for the rest...

[Oracle Porn]

great idea....not.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Oracle Porn

great idea....not.

thanks for your educated contribution

[Robbie]

Members will leave in droves...and there is plenty of free software online to download and convert streaming files. I've used it to grab funny home made vids off of You Tube. I don't think streaming vids only in the members area would do anything but bankrupt me. And wouldn't help the original problem much at all.

[CarlosTheGaucho]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

don't offer your exclusive videos as download, use real streaming only

doesn't work for DVD rips, but for the rest...

a few issues with that:

- a part of your members is most likely still on a lower bandwith, although this is getting rapidly better they will miss the downloads

- just before a week I have seen a plug in that enables you to download any real media video in a decent quality to your PC (like you can very easily download anything that's up on Youtube), so you would still need to use at least some sort of digital watermarking or extra protection

- if you don't enable downloads you have to make sure the member has a chance to bookmark / add to favourites / making his own program, of course what's the most comfortable thing about downloads is you don't have to be online and you play whatever from your favourites anytime you want.

You have to compensate the comfort in some way if you don't enable downloads.

- considering the amount of people that download a busload of movies every day, I doubt even 0,1 pct. of regular porn users are involved in content theft, to regulate user submitions would probably be a better way to go (hypothetically ... of course)

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Members will leave in droves...and there is plenty of free software online to download and convert streaming files. I've used it to grab funny home made vids off of You Tube. I don't think streaming vids only in the members area would do anything but bankrupt me. And wouldn't help the original problem much at all.

well - i know pornsites that offer streaming only, have a huge member base, excellent retention, update one exclusive episode per day and none of them can be found on any tube site. but of course no one is forced to rethink his strategy

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

well - i know pornsites that offer streaming only, have a huge member base, excellent retention, update one exclusive episode per day and none of them can be found on any tube site. but of course no one is forced to rethink his strategy

Who? Not being disrespectful...I've done this a long time, and I can't think of any sites that have "a huge member base, excellent retention (THAT'S A HUGE FACTOR), update one EXCLUSIVE episode per day (THEY SHOOT, EDIT, UPLOAD, AND UPDATE THAT MUCH?), and none of them can be found on ANY tube site"
Maybe you do know of one or several. List a few of them for us. I'm not aware of any sites like that. But again, I'm not being disrespectful. I'm just asking.

[slapass]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

well - i know pornsites that offer streaming only, have a huge member base, excellent retention, update one exclusive episode per day and none of them can be found on any tube site. but of course no one is forced to rethink his strategy

This would be a cool solution.

[Martin]

Well I've seen the insides of a few Programs that offer streaming only and they are a couple of the biggest program out right now.

[Dirty F]

Isnt that the same as drm basically, which totally failed?

[florin]

that´s no solution...you can find tons of free soft to download streaming media, plus that many customers would flee...

[TheDoc]

Anyone that thinks DRM isn't a solution is WRONG.. and clearly either a) has never tested it b) tested it 8 years ago when it sucked

DRM, will 100% protect your videos, (not rips) and does not cause member issues, does not cause huge complaints, cancels, ect.

If you own content, don't drm it, I say you have no rights to bitch about piracy.

[Spicoli]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

don't offer your exclusive videos as download, use real streaming only

doesn't work for DVD rips, but for the rest...

doesn't the free ver of real player offer 'save this clip' feature??

[stickyfingerz]

netflix vongo and many more manage to run a biz while running a proprietary streaming video service. Only way to do it is industry wide, but its a dead dead horse to be beating. People fear change.

[Dirty F]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Anyone that thinks DRM isn't a solution is WRONG.. and clearly either a) has never tested it b) tested it 8 years ago when it sucked

DRM, will 100% protect your videos, (not rips) and does not cause member issues, does not cause huge complaints, cancels, ect.

If you own content, don't drm it, I say you have no rights to bitch about piracy.

Uhm, a few years ago all the big companies went drm and called me an idiot for saying it would fail. 2 years later not one of them had drm anymore. (and not of them said sorry to me).

Im not sure why you claim people should use drm...it already failed. It failed real fucking hard.

Its funny how all those companies who where spending 1000's drming their shit and bragging on the boards who it would change the net all quietly dropped it after a while and never said a word about it anymore.

[Martin]

Originally Posted by florin

that´s no solution...you can find tons of free soft to download streaming media, plus that many customers would flee...

Yes the ones who wanted to download your whole members area and cancel right after

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

netflix vongo and many more manage to run a biz while running a proprietary streaming video service. Only way to do it is industry wide, but its a dead dead horse to be beating. People fear change.

Agreed.. but to add to what you said. The "real" reason you don't see programs/paysites flipping over to DRM is the cost. The truth is, other than the known major programs, 99% can't afford DRM at even the most basic level.

They act like they can, they through parties, sponsor events... But a $15k server or $4k lease plus per stream feeds is much more than most programs can afford to pay.

Including myself, no way I'm spending that much money to protect something I know brands my sites, brings in more traffic, and exposure to thousands who would have never found/visited me because they don't surf within the tgp-adult-traffic bubble.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by Dirty F

Uhm, a few years ago all the big companies went drm and called me an idiot for saying it would fail. 2 years later not one of them had drm anymore. (and not of them said sorry to me).

Im not sure why you claim people should use drm...it already failed. It failed real fucking hard.

Its funny how all those companies who where spending 1000's drming their shit and bragging on the boards who it would change the net all quietly dropped it after a while and never said a word about it anymore.

A few years ago is more like 6-8 years ago, and the technology has greatly changed and improved. A huge amount of mainstream movie providers run on drm and you can't tell. The same goes with VOD companies, which have no issues with DRM and Members.

[Robbie]

Listen guys...streaming just won't work. I'm telling you that surfers all over the world download any streaming file all the time. There is so much software for that it's ridiculous. Go to any forum on any subject...cars, guitars, porn, etc. and you'll find dozens of programs that people are looking for to grab youtube vids.
I also noticed TheDoc is always talking about DRM... I have no experience with that. But my staff tells me it's a "no". I'm ignorant on it, but what I've been told is that there is a charge everytime it's used. I have a couple of thousand members. I could see where that could be very expensive IF there really is some kind of per use charge (again I'm ignorant) I'm also aware of several cheap and easy to find software programs that hack DRM. So TheDoc I'm not sure why you think it's the answer? Enlighten me.
And no one yet has specifically pointed out even one program that uses all streaming vids in the members area. Everybody just keeps making generalizations. I'm just wondering who does that.
Again, I'm not being an asshole or arguing or disrespecting anybody. I'm just asking. If there are answers I'd like to be educated. Preferrably by someone else who actually runs a paysite.

[seeric]

if people want your shit they're gonna get it. period.

no way around it.

and before some one says DRM don't do it. its not the answer.

[gandalfuy]

just go with watermarks... and see it as free pub!

[Dirty F]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

A few years ago is more like 6-8 years ago, and the technology has greatly changed and improved. A huge amount of mainstream movie providers run on drm and you can't tell. The same goes with VOD companies, which have no issues with DRM and Members.

More like 4 or 5 years ago. And it doesnt change anything that they upgraded the technology. Its simply about the fact that a surfer wants to own the video..even after his membership stopped. 100% fact is many surfers will never ever sign up for a drm site and many surfers who accidentally did will CB.
You can only avoid that by stating very clearly that the site is drm and that will result in a lot of lost sales.

DRM failed and will always fail. Using drm on your site costs you money. You say some sites do it with success...how do you know? You dont know how many sales theyre losing by using something retarded as drm.

[Dirty F]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Listen guys...streaming just won't work. I'm telling you that surfers all over the world download any streaming file all the time. There is so much software for that it's ridiculous. Go to any forum on any subject...cars, guitars, porn, etc. and you'll find dozens of programs that people are looking for to grab youtube vids.
I also noticed TheDoc is always talking about DRM... I have no experience with that. But my staff tells me it's a "no". I'm ignorant on it, but what I've been told is that there is a charge everytime it's used. I have a couple of thousand members. I could see where that could be very expensive IF there really is some kind of per use charge (again I'm ignorant) I'm also aware of several cheap and easy to find software programs that hack DRM. So TheDoc I'm not sure why you think it's the answer? Enlighten me.
And no one yet has specifically pointed out even one program that uses all streaming vids in the members area. Everybody just keeps making generalizations. I'm just wondering who does that.
Again, I'm not being an asshole or arguing or disrespecting anybody. I'm just asking. If there are answers I'd like to be educated. Preferrably by someone else who actually runs a paysite.

You shouldve seen some of the big companies a few years ago. They acted as if it would completely change the industry and would make them rich. From day 1 i said it would fail real fucking hard and they laughed in my face while spending 1000's to install that shit. 1 year later they lost half their members and signups and removed that shit and never talked about it again.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Listen guys...streaming just won't work. I'm telling you that surfers all over the world download any streaming file all the time. There is so much software for that it's ridiculous. Go to any forum on any subject...cars, guitars, porn, etc. and you'll find dozens of programs that people are looking for to grab youtube vids.
I also noticed TheDoc is always talking about DRM... I have no experience with that. But my staff tells me it's a "no". I'm ignorant on it, but what I've been told is that there is a charge everytime it's used. I have a couple of thousand members. I could see where that could be very expensive IF there really is some kind of per use charge (again I'm ignorant) I'm also aware of several cheap and easy to find software programs that hack DRM. So TheDoc I'm not sure why you think it's the answer? Enlighten me.
And no one yet has specifically pointed out even one program that uses all streaming vids in the members area. Everybody just keeps making generalizations. I'm just wondering who does that.
Again, I'm not being an asshole or arguing or disr
Jespecting anybody. I'm just asking. If there are answers I'd like to be educated. Preferrably by someone else who actually runs a paysite.

Sites with drm streaming movies and often downloadable too..
http://www.yappo.com/
http://www.aebn.net/
http://www.adultrental.com/
http://www.hotmovies.com/
http://music.yahoo.com/ (music videos)

Just to name a few, really you can't even tell on most sites that the video is drm. You only know it because of the player.


Just because I lock my house and dead bolt the door doesn't mean someone can't/wont break in and steal my shit. But by having the lock, I stop 99.9% of the population from doing it. DRM protects your content, hands down.. People can no longer mass rip your sites, yank an update from an xml feed when it happens, ect.. And nobody is going to sit and re-rip your entire members area.

The problem people have is we did this before and it didn't work. But the technology back then was bad but still growing. Today, it's slick and can do way more than I can list. Like: You only have to make 1 burn of an entire CD (just 1) then the software will clip it out, show photos, allow you to select any place, even download to own if you wanted to allow it.

[Martin]

Robbie, the last time I was inside the Top Bucks net work of sites they had streaming. No download links..

[Robbie]

TheDoc, those are VOD & PPM sites. NOT paysites. Members go to VOD for a particular product. I have titles on AEBN and GameLink and Hot Movies just wrote me and we're about to do biz too. I'm aware of that. They CAN'T lose "members" because they don't have any.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Bro, those are VOD & PPM sites. NOT paysites. Members go to VOD for a particular product. I have titles on AEBN and GameLink and Hot Movies just wrote me and we're about to do biz too. I'm aware of that. They CAN'T lose "members" because they don't have any.

You asked for examples of sites running it, I don't join porn sites so I couldn't comment on who is running DRM in members area or not.

The point was, DRM works, with no problems, errors, issues from members, they can be downloaded, streamed, saved, used later, and offer more levels of protection than people here clearly understand.


The question to ask is this.. How many people here have worked with the new DRM technology.. (raises hand) others?

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by Martin

Robbie, the last time I was inside the Top Bucks net work of sites they had streaming. No download links..

I wasn't aware of that. Damn, I used to make a fortune with Top Bucks back around 2000, 2001...not so much now...but I attributed it to oversaturation.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

The question to ask is this.. How many people here have worked with the new DRM technology.. (raises hand) others?

What have you done with it. I'm interested. Do you own any content or sites?

[Dirty F]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Sites with drm streaming movies and often downloadable too..
http://www.yappo.com/
http://www.aebn.net/
http://www.adultrental.com/
http://www.hotmovies.com/
http://music.yahoo.com/ (music videos)

Uhm, you are seriously comparing those sites with drm for adult paysites...oh boy...and you think people should listen to your advice?

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Who? Not being disrespectful...I've done this a long time, and I can't think of any sites that have "a huge member base, excellent retention (THAT'S A HUGE FACTOR), update one EXCLUSIVE episode per day (THEY SHOOT, EDIT, UPLOAD, AND UPDATE THAT MUCH?), and none of them can be found on ANY tube site"
Maybe you do know of one or several. List a few of them for us. I'm not aware of any sites like that. But again, I'm not being disrespectful. I'm just asking.

www.fundorado.com - biggest german paysite. and yes, all of that

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by Robbie

What have you done with it. I'm interested. Do you own any content or sites?

I own/owned programs, paysites, content plugins, traffic sites, hosting company, list goes on. 11 years now in the online porn business.


Yappo/YappoDollars (ie: Kristin) is my wife. Yappo is ran on a cluster of DRM solution machines that simply blows my mind every time I learn something about it.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

www.fundorado.com - biggest german paysite. and yes, all of that

I just looked at that real quick...is that even a paysite? It looks like a free site...but I didn't spend much time on it. I went to one of the vids and tried to watch it. Looked like shit. And the stream was so bad that it just sat there buffering until I finally got sick of it and closed the tab. That sucked.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

I own/owned programs, paysites, content plugins, traffic sites, hosting company, list goes on. 11 years now in the online porn business.


Yappo/YappoDollars (ie: Kristin) is my wife. Yappo is ran on a cluster of DRM solution machines that simply blows my mind every time I learn something about it.

Oh okay, I've got an affiliate account with Yappo. So then tell me...how the heck does DRM function? I mean...do you have to pay everytime someone watches a vid? And once a member downloads a vid to his hard drive...does it cost me money everytime he watches it? And finally...what is to stop a person from simply hacking it? I know EVERYBODY hacked DRM on Hollywood movies and the record industry for years and put it up on peer to peer...what would stop them from doing that to me?

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Robbie

I just looked at that real quick...is that even a paysite? It looks like a free site...but I didn't spend much time on it. I went to one of the vids and tried to watch it. Looked like shit. And the stream was so bad that it just sat there buffering until I finally got sick of it and closed the tab. That sucked.

you don't get to see the german design, the english one is old and outdated. besides that: they don't have their ten thousands of members for nothing

[D]

If you can view it, you can rip it.

/fact

I hear what you guys are saying... DRM/streams can significantly cut down on the number of dunderheads that can post your videos on any p2p network or what-have-you... but nothing is 100%.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Oh okay, I've got an affiliate account with Yappo. So then tell me...how the heck does DRM function? I mean...do you have to pay everytime someone watches a vid? And once a member downloads a vid to his hard drive...does it cost me money everytime he watches it? And finally...what is to stop a person from simply hacking it? I know EVERYBODY hacked DRM on Hollywood movies and the record industry for years and put it up on peer to peer...what would stop them from doing that to me?

People steal porn because it's so easy to steal. People rip hollywood movies because they are good, zero minute, quotas/praise that these rip groups fight for.

You are also talking about hacking 1 movie at a time, or ripping 1 movie at a time. The difference being if you offer downloadable movies, software can scan/download every movie/picture from your members area, over night. No drm hack is doing that.

You can DRM a video and offer it for free-stream. Or charge per min, per download, per movie, per hour, no limits or set limits, like 30/90 day expires on downloads, really much more than I list.. Sky is the limit kind of idea.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

you don't get to see the german design, the english one is old and outdated. besides that: they don't have their ten thousands of members for nothing

Ten Thousands????? WTF?!?!?! How come I never heard of these guys? Do they have an affiliate program? Sounds like I missed the boat somehow.

[Robbie]

It is a paysite right?

[SZNY]

Adobe now also offers DRM over Flash Media Server powered video solutions.

http://www.xbiz.com/news/90572

[TheDoc]

Oh, the other thing is most hollywood movies are hacked well before they make it online with drm. Almost all movies are released, online, well before they ever touch a drm machine.

[JimG]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

www.fundorado.com - biggest german paysite. and yes, all of that

That site sucks as Robbie already mentioned, video quality is terrible and SSSLLLOOOOWWWW. Some exclusive stuff in the VIP area maybe but the rest is just content from DVD companies. I did checkout the .de domain and the design does look much better, a few reality sites which look exclusive. I didn't get to naivgate much since my German is probably like your Chinese. Anyway looking at the site I think sexmoney is much bigger then Fundorado but what do I know.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

People steal porn because it's so easy to steal. People rip hollywood movies because they are good, zero minute, quotas/praise that these rip groups fight for.

You are also talking about hacking 1 movie at a time, or ripping 1 movie at a time. The difference being if you offer downloadable movies, software can scan/download every movie/picture from your members area, over night. No drm hack is doing that.

You can DRM a video and offer it for free-stream. Or charge per min, per download, per movie, per hour, no limits or set limits, like 30/90 day expires on downloads, really much more than I list.. Sky is the limit kind of idea.

Ok, so how would this work: I have a DRM on my members area videos...a member downloads a video. Can he now watch it on his hard drive forever? Do I get charged everytime he watches it? IF he tries to upload it to a tube site what exactly happens? OR, if he turns it into a torrent and starts sharing it on torrent sites what happens? Sorry to be so ignorant...I just think that if you would explain exactly how this works then maybe we could all take a good look at it. The Windows DRM page gives me a headache. LOL

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Agreed.. but to add to what you said. The "real" reason you don't see programs/paysites flipping over to DRM is the cost. The truth is, other than the known major programs, 99% can't afford DRM at even the most basic level.

They act like they can, they through parties, sponsor events... But a $15k server or $4k lease plus per stream feeds is much more than most programs can afford to pay.

Including myself, no way I'm spending that much money to protect something I know brands my sites, brings in more traffic, and exposure to thousands who would have never found/visited me because they don't surf within the tgp-adult-traffic bubble.

I have floated this a few times, but Ill do it again.

Sooner or later someone big in the industry will put up the cash. Ive said this before. Someone that has an upsell would be VERY VERY smart to develop new drm techniques that surfers will be able to adapt to easier. The person doing that should offer this tool FREE to any paysite willing to have an ad running in their members area for the non compete upsell.

Cant make this tool cost much, or it should be free. Make it simple so any members area can easily deploy it. Instead of wasting time trying to herd cats and trying to stop what is already released in the wild, work on keeping anything new secure. The ONLY way to stop piracy is to adopt industry wide new secure ways of content distribution.

I dont care how many piracy groups you form or whatever. You wont stop it that way. Like trying to catch fleas with a pair of chopsticks.

Industry wide new secure content distribution methods.

Lets say a company with the initals AFF that has shit loads of money. All the face they may of lost could be regained awfully fast for getting something like that developed. Giving it away free for just a members area upsell.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Ten Thousands????? WTF?!?!?! How come I never heard of these guys? Do they have an affiliate program? Sounds like I missed the boat somehow.

well, ten thousands of germans

they even pay up to 50 Euro per signup: www.cashdorado.com

if you have german traffic...

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Ok, so how would this work: I have a DRM on my members area videos...a member downloads a video. Can he now watch it on his hard drive forever? Do I get charged everytime he watches it? IF he tries to upload it to a tube site what exactly happens? OR, if he turns it into a torrent and starts sharing it on torrent sites what happens? Sorry to be so ignorant...I just think that if you would explain exactly how this works then maybe we could all take a good look at it. The Windows DRM page gives me a headache. LOL

You can do all of that, none of it, or just some of it.

If you offer the video with no expire, it's no different than just allowing a download to happen. OTHER THAN, 'depending' on how you have it setup, you can shut the video off permanently.

You could.. offer a 30 day download that after 30 days, fires up and asks for a cc to use the video or more or even rejoin the entire site.

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Ok, so how would this work: I have a DRM on my members area videos...a member downloads a video. Can he now watch it on his hard drive forever? Do I get charged everytime he watches it? IF he tries to upload it to a tube site what exactly happens? OR, if he turns it into a torrent and starts sharing it on torrent sites what happens? Sorry to be so ignorant...I just think that if you would explain exactly how this works then maybe we could all take a good look at it. The Windows DRM page gives me a headache. LOL

Why should a member own that content forever? If I goto a video rental place I get charged for every day I have it past the return date. Yes we do the same thing currently on our sites, but I think the whole model is flawed. It only ended up that way because we didnt have the technology when paysites started to limit the members usage. Who wants to give away their whole members area for 27.95 or for a 4.00 trial?

[Robbie]

So DRM basically just time expires and makes the vid unwatchable? I was thinking of the way DVD's won't allow you to make copies or CD's won't allow you to make copies.
I think if I joined a site. And really liked one of the vids and then it "died" on me a few weeks after I had downloaded it to my drive....I would be pissed.
I think what is needed is a "magic software" that would allow members to download a vid, but somehow stop them from ripping it or burning it or re-uploading it in any way.
That way a member could enjoy the vids forever on his own machine, but not share them.
I guess that would be the magic pill that everyone would love to have.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

I have floated this a few times, but Ill do it again.

Sooner or later someone big in the industry will put up the cash. Ive said this before. Someone that has an upsell would be VERY VERY smart to develop new drm techniques that surfers will be able to adapt to easier. The person doing that should offer this tool FREE to any paysite willing to have an ad running in their members area for the non compete upsell.

Cant make this tool cost much, or it should be free. Make it simple so any members area can easily deploy it. Instead of wasting time trying to herd cats and trying to stop what is already released in the wild, work on keeping anything new secure. The ONLY way to stop piracy is to adopt industry wide new secure ways of content distribution.

I dont care how many piracy groups you form or whatever. You wont stop it that way. Like trying to catch fleas with a pair of chopsticks.

Industry wide new secure content distribution methods.

Lets say a company with the initals AFF that has shit loads of money. All the face they may of lost could be regained awfully fast for getting something like that developed. Giving it away free for just a members area upsell.

Their is no cheap solution.. you can't create a cheap solution. The videos must be re-encoded, stored, ect on some serious machines. A few people offer this service at a rip off price.

I don't think we need to create something new, just an honest company that is willing to spend the money and work with our industry to drm our movies. I would pay, per movie, if the price was cheap enough. I wouldn't pay for the DRM machines on my own, so if the price was right, I would use it.


The piracy group is made of dvd production companies that can't figure out why/how to make real money online. They are the same people that blame online for falling dvd sales but waited 10 years to get online. Not the smartest group of minds.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

Why should a member own that content forever? If I goto a video rental place I get charged for every day I have it past the return date. Yes we do the same thing currently on our sites, but I think the whole model is flawed. It only ended up that way because we didnt have the technology when paysites started to limit the members usage. Who wants to give away their whole members area for 27.95 or for a 4.00 trial?

That's a good point.