justinsain

I understand what you've said and the position you're in.

You have decided to make Redtube work in your favor as opposed to
them ripping your content with no benifit. I see Twistys stuff ALL over the net
so I understand the overwhelming up hill battle you're against.

It seems that if everyone took the action you have taken the tube sites would then become legitimate and everyone would benefit. The problem is the tube sites were founded on an illegal premise and many business were and continue to be hurt by that.

I feel very strongly about people that lie, cheat and steal to get ahead and once established get to go legit and then think everything is fine. Tube sites are one example and illegal immigration is another. It really sucks for those people that go through life trying to do the RIGHT thing.

You've decided to adapt and given the position you're in I can hardly blame you. I think the Adult industry as a whole shoot themselves in the foot with way too much free porn marketing and it will take big changes and many years to get it back under control.

Socks

Great post shap, I think a lot of people here are missing the point, and the boat.

PS: I e-mailed Kevin maybe a month ago and showed him a full length twisty's video on Redtube, and I guess this is what came of it. There was no advertising next to it at all to Twistys

TDF

its really a cut and dry situation.Tube sites in itself arent bad, its when the illegal posting of videos along with whole ripped scenes of stolen content. These rogue tubes sites know that following the rules Arent AS PROFITABLE as going legit...if they did,they wouldnt have prepaid ads on them

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Sig heil

newbreed

I would reply in this thread with my thoughts, but I am too busy filling out DMCA's for RedTube and XNXX

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Loryn ‎(3:16 PM):
I love it, just as long as we keep the bedroom door closed from all ears then we can have throw down hard core sex that makes us money haha
fuck it we can have sex on money never did that before

tony286

Oh bullshit please be a man and tell it like it is. Its all about the money and you could give a fuck less about the industry or anyone else.
I would respect that more then the you've got to change bullshit or we are working to control content theft nonsense. Please your being insulting.

Shap

There are sites that every single sponsor has as an affiliate that have very questionable business practices that never get brought up. Why? Because they make people good money.

Our industry is notorious for turning a blind eye as long as it profits them. The biggest problem our industry has is if something harms the surfer they have no problem with it. If it harms their sponsor they have no problem with it. But once it harms them they get all pissed off.

I've looked at the situation. Tube sites aren't going anywhere. Long term the biggest ones will all move towards being more regulated. Not allowing them to sign up as an affiliate will only slow that process down. AFF and others will continue to pay their bandwidth bills and just because I turn them down for an affiliate account won't stop them from doing business. Shutting them out isn't the answer.

Mutt

nobody should have to police other people's content unless they want to be a 'good neighbor'

here's the analogy for you:

there's a thief in your neighborhood breaking into houses over a prolonged period of time, you know how he's making a living - he's stealing from you and your neighbors - then one day he knocks on your door and he wants to sell you something, a good deal on some stolen piece of property - are you going to do business with the guy whom you know stole the sewing machine from the old lady down the street? are you going to turn him into the cops so justice is served? or just say 'sorry I'm not doing business with a thief'

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Shap

I look at myself just fine in the mirror. Not trying to be a dick but I treat my clients better than anyone else in this industry. My top priority is treating every single client of mine like gold. How many other people in this industry can you say that about?

TDF

hey, you made your decision regarding your content, just dont be surprised when more sites pop up who wont want to cut a deal with you and post more full rips of your sites and dont be surprised if there is any fallout from affiliates who refuse to promote twistys because of this. its your content, your rules

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Daymare

Never thought I would see the day when Shap helps content thieves. I think the business you are going to LOSE from your previously trusting affiliates is going to be more than what you gain. You spent 10 years building a solid rep, now you're watching it melt nice a snowball in hell.


2 cents

Shap

Great post. I agree with you.

The problem with our industry is as long as you don't steal from each other it's ok. Stealing from surfers is cool. If people held sponsors to the same standards then there would be very few sponsors to promote. FUCK THE SURFER and everything is ok. It's a shame that's the mentality.

tony286

If now your helping fuck the industy so you make a few more dollars or like the scared shop owner on the corner so they dont steal from me. Its sad. I always thought better of you.

Shap

Thanks Socks. I spent all night writing the post. It wasn't easy. It's tough writing a post when you know a lot of people will disagree with. Especially people that you know and respect. That said I'm not one to hide from what we are doing and the decisions we make.

Thanks for the post

xmas13

If RedTube went 100% legit, more pirates would pop up and take its place. Piracy is big business.

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ICQ 557504926

xmas13

FACT: Tube visitors are not interested in promo clips.

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ICQ 557504926

tony286

Stop please stop. You know what your doing is wrong your not a stupid man please stop trying to convince everyone your doing the noble thing your not.

dready

While it's far from ideal, I think Shap is on the right track. It may be preferable to only deal with legit tube sites, but at least it's a step in the right direction. Hopefully in time, the sites that play by the rules will be the only ones making money, and can be an example to others. Sometimes it's good to have a carrot to go along with the stick. :2cents:

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ICQ: 91139591

tony286

THank you, the surfer has been trained to expect full scenes.

Shap

So by accepting Redtube traffic I'm thrown into the same boat as all the low lifes in our industry that have given every surfer they've encountered every reason to never join a paysite again? Fuck The Surfer right? Isn't that our industry slogan? I'm the one guy who's been against that from day one. And accepting RedTube traffic makes me not care about the industry?

xmas13

A tube (and torrent/p2p) user is after free stuff, movies music software and porn, not promo clips trailers etc.

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ICQ 557504926

tony286

Yep the right track if we give the thieft's money they wont steal from us. lol

mpahlca

I would like to ask you two questions number one is your sig paid for? or do you promote that program? and number two do you agree with their business practices? Let me know so I can see where you stand on issues so I can make an informed response to your concerns.

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I could give two shits wether you read this sig or not.

Socks

Bingo..

For those who remember, my site Adult Site Surfer was among the very first review sites out there.. We did most of the development and many of the earliest reviews in 2001, and our competition at that point was Janes Guide, X3Guide and somewhere around that time came AdultReviews.net

GFY didn't know what to make of review sites, and there were big discussions against letting us into their paysites (as if we needed someone to "let us in" lol) and also people really mad that we told surfers the truth! I mean they'd spent the last 5 years investing in surfer-traps, this was all bad news.

We basically did everything opposite. No pop-ups. No banner ads. No false information. We actually went into the sites and wrote our opinion.

Back then it was blasphemy, and today we have 100 competitors and it's just as normal as starting a TGP or linklist to make a review site.

The sooner you realize what's coming over the horizon, the sooner you can start getting your plans together.

The protectionists back then died out, and they're about to again.

xmas13

I can't imagine General Motors giving away 10 cars in order to sell one!!!!!! It doesn't make any sense.

Solution must be legal/technical.

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ICQ 557504926

Shap

My rep is being honest. Caring about the surfer. Giving them the highest quality sites possible. I'm probably honest to a fault. Hence the big long post today. I could have hid under a rock and ignored the situation. Instead I'm addressing it. I'd love to hear from any affiliates about this. My email is tw-shap at twistys dot com.

Wolfy

Wow, what a bunch of idiots around here. Shap just laid out some gospel, whether you like it or not.


If you can't see that the web is changing whether you like it or not, you're in for a complete and total SHOCK when you're left with nothing.


For those of you that do see it changing, I happen to have a couple of IDEAL domains for the future of the internet for sale cheap:

www.HoldMyFile.com
www.HoldMyMovie.com

I would prefer to sell them as a pair. Cheers!

Socks

All content creators are hoping and praying for a legal/technical solution to drop out of the sky and land in their stocking for Christmas.

Question is: What are you going to do in the decade it takes them to get around to that?

OldSchoolJim

Glad you came out with this Shap and great post.....
GFY is notorious for bashing anything and everything.....it was dialers...the circle jerks....then pre checked cross sells.....the constant evolution of this biz has been fought tooth and nail the whole way.

until it washes over everyone in its path..like it or not...the tube sites are here to stay....wether or not you allow them to operate in an acceptable method is up to the content provider....the people i see screaming the loudest seem to be affiliates who are scratching their heads no how to compete with sub 100 alexa rankings and how they got so big so fast.....gotta be something.....i would think if AFF was dropping 100k+ a month in their bank accounts most would be singing a different tune.

There are already examples of acceptable tube site practice...such as XXXJAYS SNIZZSHARE.COM etc.....

that is what we have to do to adapt the tubes from where they are currently...just stealing content.....dont forget ...in 1995 everyone stole content also.....no one cared about copyright and lawsuits....only a few even knew what the fuck was going on....look where we are today.

affiliate proliferated the use of free content over the years from the thumbnail post to the movie post to free hosted content to anything a program was willing to provide to get their traffic...why should we roll over now??? we have never drawn a line in the sand before.....why are tubes so much different in from anyhting else we have done in this industry over the years??? simply because they are getting too much of the share to ignore???

Thanks for coming out Shap....maybe more programs will limit the tube sites from utilizing stolen content and help get them in line.....those are the companies that will reap the big benefits.....

The change isnt coming....its already here...most of you are just too blind to notice

Wolfy

oh yeah....


/threadjack.

tony286

Stop changing the subject we arent talking about the surfer. I never thought it was cool to fuck the surfer and dont think its cool to fuck the industry I work in.
Accepting redtube traffic makes you part of the problem and you know this your a smart guy. Your not doing this for higher reasons.

CCdoug

I will never welcome or knowingly approve any tube site as an affiliate due to their shady business practices and how they all got started. This would be a loogie in the face to our hard working affiliates. I have heard a lot of good things about you Shap and read many of your threads which I found to be very professional and informational but this... I don't agree with this at all and will never endorse your views regarding tube sites... period.

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mpahlca

Still waiting for you to answer a few simple questions until you do why should anyone take you seriously?

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I could give two shits wether you read this sig or not.

tony286

Jim ever have to beg to have your sweat and blood taken down? Have to keep the email very nice or nothing would be done. Ever have a full rip of your paysite on a bt with AFF ads on either side of it? I have.
Tubes arent tgp's, you really think the surfer is going to go from 20 min scenes to 2 min and say great now I guess I have to buy porn? Thats funny.

mpahlca

Ok what if i make an mgp of all your fhg and put every single one up in links then skim the site and sell ads to AFF is that ok?

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I could give two shits wether you read this sig or not.

Mutt

quoted for truth.

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mpahlca

Still waiting on you to answer any questions posed of you....

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I could give two shits wether you read this sig or not.

tony286

So one comes in nice and now your the pitbull? Is that the way it works? Lets not change the subject I didnt start this thread.

OldSchoolJim

No i have not....but if i needed to i would.....i would then teach the tube owner exactly how to use the content and the ony acceptable means....as with any other affiliate

Dont ask me what i would or would not do anyhow.....the hypocrisy on this forum is mind numbing.

mpahlca

Yes I am the pitbull, I am asking you a simple question to frame my understanding of your position on this, so far you have yet to answer it, so your point of "hating" tube sites isn't valid to me.

When/If you answer those questions I can then frame my response to your opinion, until then I am guessing at your motives or reasoning, and I don't like to guess.

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I could give two shits wether you read this sig or not.

F-U-Jimmy

Your correct turning them down for an affiliate account would not stop them from doing business, but it would set an example for the rest of the industry, it would show people that you are an outstanding program and that you as the owner have a high moral regard for other peoples property. But I guess it would not make you money in the short term ?







.

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icq. 176240424 44.years as a pornographer !!!!!!!!!!!

mpahlca

Jim sorry that wasn't intended for you but for Tony404 I am waiting for him to respond to some questions....

I really like the second paragraph there, its amazing how guys come in loving a program that mails its members daily, ex-members hourly, runs multiple pre-check cross sales, consoles on top of consoles that go to other programs and hijack affiliate traffic, yet care if one program accepts traffic from a tube site hypocrisy is probably a daily affirmation...

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I could give two shits wether you read this sig or not.

tony286

They only have my sig on this board. I have two paysites we are a mom pop operation so every little bit helps and Im tired of having to beg tubes,bt's to take my shit down.Also I dont fuck the surfer and I looked up to shap as far as taking care of the customer. Which I always felt was important.

Shap

This is exactly what happened with RedTube. We approached them about our stolen content. They replied telling us they really want to work with us and follow our rules. We laid out what are rules were and they've followed them. I think they've approached many sites about this but everyone is slamming the door in their face. That isn't going to get them to go away.

How many companies in our industry started out the wrong way and found their way and became huge successes? It seems to be the way our industry works. I think that has a lot to do with the nature and the cost of entry. With such a low cost of entry anybody can start a company in our industry. Some start off by bending the rules. Others start of by stealing designs, content etc. As an industry we've never had an issue with this and we've been willing to give people a chance to become legit.

Brad Mitchell

I think that no matter what side of the fence you are on that this is a great conversation for everyone to be having in the forums. Even if you don't agree with Shap's decision, I think there are a few things you can't disagree with:

- Twisty's character and reputation for good, honest business has always preceeded them. Any suggestion that they're not great to both their members and their affiliates is not only unfounded but absurd.

- By setting clear boundaries they have established how their content appears and that the advertising around it is relevant - that is responsible. Making sure that their advertising doesn't appear on pages without their content is extraordinarily responsible. This does effectively further legitimize these sites ONE PAGE AT A TIME... fuck people, at least that's something positive.

To lead by example isn't easy but I think that's what Shap and Beth are trying to do here. I'm not stupid, I see that the dissenting view is best summed by saying that it's wrong to do business with RedTube as an affiliate until there is no stolen content appearing *anywhere* on their web site. Fundamentally, we all agree and see that - I'm sure Shap does too. Leading by example though is realizing that this medium (tube sites) is a completely unstoppable force and if a property like RedTube can change from being an offender to a positive example of how a tube site should be run then we will actually be better off than we are now, I think.

I also think everyone needs to really view this situation as a CHICKEN VS. EGG debate - tube sites are here, they're not going anywhere.... it seems to me that it's possible we will see a complete 360 on RedTube's content shortly if they're attempting to work with every affiliate program and hopefully continue to see more of the same on other tube properties in the future.

You think there are problems now? Everyone here needs to realize that for every tube site that you've seen or heard of there will be 50 more next year. Whats fundamentally wrong with tube sites is content theft, period. It's too late to bitch about too much free stuff out there and decreased sales, etc, that's already upon us. The best thing that could happen right now would be for webmasters to be developing nice new tube sites with properly licensed content and for affiliate programs to be proactively working with already established tube sites so that they can change their ways.

The whole situation sucks for everyone except the tube site owners who have nothing to lose and everything to gain. We can sit here and discuss hating them but really everyone should be doing one of two things: 1) sending DMCAs and filing lawsuits, or 2) establishing legitimate business practices in that market with the creation of new sites that "play by the rules" or working with established sites to transform their model into something legitimate, even if it's one page or sponsor at a time.



Brad

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President at MojoHost | brad at mojohost dot com | Skype MojoHostBrad
71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

tony286

Do you really think surfers are going to go from full scenes to 2-3 min clips and now say oh I have to buy a membership?
I hope your right and im wrong because I think this shit is going to be our down fall on many different levels and everyone is going to be standing around saying what happened?

mpahlca

Fantastic to here, I am glad you are running a mom and pop, and sorry to hear you allow money to come in to you in sigs that you don't fully vet. You may want to sign up as a user to lovedollers.com without telling them and see how you enjoy the experience.

As for not fucking the surfer it is one of our prime goals everyday to provide our members with the best possible experience, we continue to spend millions of dollars on content above and beyond IMO any other online company. That in no way takes away from our responsibilty to our affiliates and in that we work VERY hard to convert and monetize the traffic from all our affiliates, and we decline traffic on a daily basis from sources we don't agree with.

Tube sites are they the problem? or are the people running the sites the problem? Was thumbnails on sites stealing traffic from text only sites? Was MGP's over TGP's stealing affiliate sales away from the original owners?

To me tube sites are here and if you honestly believe they are going anywhere you are living in a world that I don't understand. NBC and other major networks have created their own tube networks to handle the online distribution of video to surfers, why if Major media is joining the tube race would any company look at blocking them as a traffic source? Wouldn't they instead work at creating a way to monetize that traffic and control it? Shap outlined a way for ALL affiliate programs to monetize tube traffic, Redtube does ok with us as an affiliate as good as any average tgp.

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I could give two shits wether you read this sig or not.

WarChild

Wow, tony404 is running is big fat uneducated mouth again. What are the odds of that?

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tony286

Please explain how its uneducated? Uneducated that I had to beg to get my shit removed?

notoldschool

No shit. Twistys is no better than AFF. Love how he comes on a webmaster board just to rub it in everyones face. Funny shit.

__________________
No doubt one may quote history to support any cause, as the devil quotes scripture.
-- Learned Hand

http://www.bjpenn.com

tony286

I take this back I dont want fight with you warchild everyone is going to take different sides on this. Threads like this upset me too much the path isnt going to change no matter what I say. Im hitting my head against a wall. good luck everybody has to go down their own path.