The VISA Scare - Globill's Response - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

Brown Bear · 10-02-2002, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
time will tell, it's too early for us to see all possible alternatives. Few months ago everyone said that VISA put an official end to beastiality sites.

today
http://www.bestiality.com
visa,mastercard,american express are accepted

Holy fuck! They even take American Express!

Theo · 10-02-2002, 04:33 PM

yes,that's what they claim

of course now monitoring of sites passes on a new level.

[Labret] · 10-02-2002, 04:48 PM

The beast sites all just moved to a Dutch processor.

The scrub is lower, allowed the beast producers to eliminate all the copyright infringement. The so called crackdown was a blessing for many.

Beast is better off now than it was 6 months ago.

Cept for all the people that took it in the ass from CCBill.

Brown Bear · 10-02-2002, 04:53 PM

I'm guessing beastiality must be legal in the Netherlands huh?

[Labret] · 10-02-2002, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brown Bear
I'm guessing beastiality must be legal in the Netherlands huh?

That would be an understatement.

Jamie · 10-02-2002, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
I've heard it all now, webmasters who think surfers are the only scammers, processors who think they can get around the credit card companies, and complete idiots who do not seem to grasp that there is way more to the situation than the surface shows.

Duh.

That's a really constructive statement.

Ludedude · 10-02-2002, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie

That's a really constructive statement.

We've sort of gotten used to those around here

Kimmykim · 10-02-2002, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
time will tell, it's too early for us to see all possible alternatives. Few months ago everyone said that VISA put an official end to beastiality sites.

today
http://www.bestiality.com
visa,mastercard,american express are accepted

well soul, amex doesn't process for adult at all, and if they see that site they won't be processing for it. Amex, unlike MC/Visa is a closed loop transaction system who answers only to a board of directors.

The bestiality issue was a Visa USA situation, and I don't recall it ever being presented as anything else by CCBill or IBill, so that's not really a point.

If one looks at the processing volume of Epoch, IBill and CCBill combined, and what those companies stand to lose if there were truly a way around the whole thing, then why wouldn't they do it? Would a few dollars matter in the face of probably a billion dollars a year in adult processing between the three of them?

There's a reason there are big boys and little boys. The big boys have been around, are still around, and will continue to be around. The little boys, like the Lancelots, Digiblazes, Sypros, etc of the world are either gone or on their way out...

Pornkings · 10-02-2002, 10:02 PM

The shakedown has begun hold on to your Peckers.

Start building personal Relationships with people you can contact and trust.

nuclei · 10-02-2002, 10:24 PM

In case a lot of you did not get the entire gist of what visa is doing... They have made it so that everyone who uses PSIP's (third party billers) are now essentially under the exact same canopy as having your own merchant account... you don't of course, but you do have to follow the same regulations/ratios as if you had one otherwise you'll be terminated. In other words, you are now paying 15% of your cash for no extra protections.

kevinl · 10-02-2002, 10:34 PM

I ask this on the other thread but I will ask it here. Can Globill have found a way to avoid the new regs. while ibill,ccbill, and epoch got nailed with them ?
I process with both Globill and CCbill and both are great companies and seem to be run great but what advantage would there be to having ibill, ccbill, and epoch over globill after Nov. 15?
Where can I buy globill stock? you are fixing to rake it in.

Mutt · 10-02-2002, 10:50 PM

I'm not going to hurl shit at Glo-Bill over the plan they have which they say allows them to carry on business as usual. It is true that Glo-Bill, has always run the tightest ship, you can't run scams using Glo-Bill easily. Unlike IBill. You wanna blame any one
third party processor, start with IBill.

BUT if you think their plan is going to work long term, you are burying your head in the sand. Be prepared one day to wake up
and have NO processing. Before you put all your eggs in the Globill basket, ask Globill which banks and in which countries those banks are located. Do you want to risk your business and those of your affiliates on banks located on the island of OoogaBooga?

I have to check into this more, I don't think this means that you personally have to reside in the United States to use any of the third party processors. It does mean that you will have to set up an American corporation though. There are lots of companies who will do this for you.

the indigo · 10-02-2002, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by A.Martin
To quash any rumors before they get started, let me address a few points that have been brought up in this thread.

First, Glo-Bill is not, never has and never will attempt to "get around the credit card companies". I can assure everyone that everything is above board and that Glo-Bill is in fact working very closely with BOTH the credit card industry and the merchant banking industry in the jurisdiction that we are now processing from. We are in full compliance with all regulations within our jurisdiction.

Second, this is way more than simply a jurisdictional issue. Glo-Bill had a small army of attorneys, banking experts and consultants working on this problem for more than three months. They have worked with us in crafting a unique and solid solution that will benefit both Glo-Bill and by extension all of Glo-Bill's clients.

We cannot speak for other processors and whatever paths they have chosen to go down. But by the same token, we do hope that ALL our competitors and the industry as a whole continues to prosper. That only helps all of us. Glo-Bill has simply positioned itself with a solution it regards as the most beneficial to its clients.

Keep up the good work.

Brown Bear · 10-02-2002, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mutt
Do you want to risk your business and those of your affiliates on banks located on the island of OoogaBooga?

haha...ooogabooga

Mutt · 10-02-2002, 11:07 PM

nuclei is right, even though you're still using third party processing you're going to be treated like you do own your own. And the third party processors FINALLY are going to have to do what they should have been doing all along, policing their clients and getting rid of the bad ones.

So if you can get a merchant account of your own, you really should now.

Here's what I want to know. If you get kicked out by one of the
third party processors who are now going to be much more discriminating about who they process for, do you get reported
to VISA and are then blacklisted from ALL third party processing?
Sounds like it to me.

Whoaaaaaaaaaaaa...............talk about thinning out the herd if that happens.

Well I think I know some happy people tonight, the check processors and Paypal.

Anybody know how and if Paypal will be affected by this?

Mutt · 10-02-2002, 11:18 PM

Those beast sites who just rip off content are living dangerously.
Supposedly there is only one company who dominates beastie content and the mystery people who own it play rough with content infringers.

Rough as in dropping you into the ocean wearing cement shoes.

Socks · 10-02-2002, 11:30 PM

Who are the dutch processors?

Yassi · 10-02-2002, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 49thParallel
On a side note...when I was first looking for a processor, I tried one of the other major processors...then, to test the system, I tried subscribing for my own site with my own credit card...my card was declined...
Not only did my card have $12,000 of available credit..I have a perfect credit rating...built on 23 years of credit history...

the reasoning....cards for foreign countries are scrutinized at a higher level...

I live in Canada for god's sake...with close to the world's highest internet usage per capita...

So, I switched to Globill...no problems...no regrets

That happened to me too. And my CC is a US Visa with $5000 credit and let me guess who this processor is? it starts with C and ends with CBill

They fucking suck
Whoever uses them looses big amounts of money that's for sure

SpeakEasy · 10-03-2002, 12:57 AM

Kimmy, some of us here are having a discussion on this current, fairly major CC situation. You just keep blabbing and throwing out Names at people, I'm assuming you have nothing constructive to add so why don't you keep your nasty comments and name calling to yourself!!!!!

UnseenWorld · 10-03-2002, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim

well soul, amex doesn't process for adult at all

People buy my content using American Express all the time. Also, if I want to view a "dirty movie" in my hotel room, I don't think they'll nix that sale, either. They just don't like adult websites.

kevinl · 10-03-2002, 02:21 AM

Quote:

What seems to go unnoticed in all this talk is the fact that the scammers and fraudulent practicing jackasses are the reason for this whole situation.

How were these scammers able to pull off these scams? Who collected their money for them? Had to be primarily there credit card processor. Had the processors stepped in this would not be neccessary. I don't know how a webmaster can stop other webmasters from fucking people but their processor certainly can.You guys are on the front lines.You get the phone calls,emails screaming about a fucking no one could scam without their processor finding out at some point.You guys didn't stop it so Visa did.

stagman · 10-09-2002, 06:28 AM

anyone out there using globill as their primary? hows it compare to epoch?

thanks in advance..

wallstreetduo · 10-09-2002, 07:05 AM

A not so little birdie told me yesterday that VISA is taking a very close look at Globills "unique" offer. A very close look. Let's see their postings after 11/15 when they are in VISA sights with $25,000 per merchant per month fines - which, by the way, the merchants are liable for. These fines go all the way up to $100,000 per month. So tread carefully. The big guys know what they're doing.

worm · 10-09-2002, 08:45 PM

For the mathematically challenged...

Global charges %1 more than CCBill. So if a website grosses $1442 / week, it's cheaper to stick with CCBill and pay the $750. You'll recoop the initiation money in a year.

After the first year, a website needs to gross $721 / week to make CCBill the better deal.

My hunch would be to stay with CCBill if a website is near or above these values...since one is likely to lose customers during the switch. Heck, 4 lost rebills at $25 is a $100.

Of course, these numbers double if MC joins the Visa bandwagon.

Has anyone else found other considerations?

DragonAss · 10-09-2002, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
And the most important point of all -- IF you have your own merchant account and you lose it, YOU then are disqualified to get ANY processing, including third party.

I agree this is the most imprtant point of all. We already had a merchant account but decided to use CCBill because we knew there would be inherent chargeback risks -- regardless of how honest we are, how often we rotate/add content or how quickly we voluntarily issue refunds. If we stay with CCBIll now, however, the same blacklisting rules will apply... so it's fucked if you do, fucked if you don't. In fact, with the personal merchant account, our business can probablly survive longer if it goes above the 1% ratio since we have an established history with them (aren't just another face in the crowd).

My only question at this point is who makes the best membership billing software solution for multiple sites?

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
[blacklisting] Which I certainly hope happens to some of you idiots.

Some of we idiots love you too KK

Quote:

Originally posted by kevinl
How were these scammers able to pull off these scams?

I asked myself the same thing. If a 3rd party processors' fraud scrubbing is supposed to protect us from consumer fraud/chargebacks (presumably) then how can massive fraud by merchants go unoticed until it's too late?

That 15% is looking steeper by the minute. Luckily, we never set up an affiliate program so we don't have to worry about affecting other webmasters with our decision.

jonnax · 10-10-2002, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by UnseenWorld

They just don't like adult websites.

Swiss processor
http://www.globosale.net/
accept surfers with amex-cards and they accept adult sites also..

Webby · 10-10-2002, 02:36 AM

Adrian - Globill:

All I can say is that Globill has had the foresight to act and create relationships internationally - I am sure this will be appreciated by more as time goes by.

As for VISA US, this banking region for any non - US citizens is now a joke and not commercially worth consideration. As for US citizens it simply means you must now account for eating breakfast to VISA US (and rest assured, your data will be of interest to "others").

Thank you for keeping us posted!

markusborger · 10-11-2002, 03:52 PM

hahaha.....

1) we have our malling server fucked-up

or

2) DiBill didn´t sent us any notice at all about all this VISA bullshit

JJMedia · 10-11-2002, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by markusborger
hahaha.....

1) we have our malling server fucked-up

or

2) DiBill didn´t sent us any notice at all about all this VISA bullshit

3) They are a rip-off company in Russia that doesn't give a shit about VISA rules or their webmasters.

nexuth · 10-17-2002, 05:18 AM

Hey everyone...

I don't know if anyone has read this article regarding Visa but its got most angles covered...from the "its all going to be okay" to "extreme paranoia"

http://www.avnonline.com/issues/2002...002_lead.shtml

Its essential reading...

And just to stir the hornets nest more...this is from Verotel's site:

"Because Verotel provides its processing services for content subscriptions only, and not for product sales (physical goods), Verotel is classified as a 'TicketMaster', in the same way a company could be classified selling tickets for concerts or shows online."

http://www.verotel.com/ipsp.html

er, hello...i know some 3rd party companies allow for subscriptions AND physical goods, so why are they not making the distinction and deciding to apply the fees across the board?

Then again, Verotel isn't based in the USA, so they are, so far, exempt.

Another thought: Can't all USA based web companies switch to overseas 3rd party processors? This obviously is not taking into consideration that lost repeat billing will cost everyone a fortune. But from what I understand, it is an option.

I checked out http://www.globosale.net/ and they seem quite cool. I'm sure Visa won't want to fuck with the Swiss banking system too much, although this latter comment is not based on any knowledge I have. I could be way, way off....but globosale seem real cool....

good luck everyone

dieselaction · 07-25-2003, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by A.Martin
First, Glo-Bill is not, never has and never will attempt to "get around the credit card companies". I can assure everyone that everything is above board and that Glo-Bill is in fact working very closely with BOTH the credit card industry and the merchant banking industry in the jurisdiction that we are now processing from. We are in full compliance with all regulations within our jurisdiction.

Globill screwed us all

Indy the real one · 07-27-2003, 04:27 PM

The wind turned...

stocktrader23 · 07-27-2003, 04:38 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 49thParallel
[B]This is the official announcement that Globill has sent out that would indicate that the $750 fee quoted by IBILL, CCBILL, EPOCH & PAYCOM is NOT industry wide. (and no, I don't work for Globill...they sent me this notice, as I currently use them as my processor of choice)..

Are they still your processor of choice? I need to get hooked up.

boobmaster · 07-27-2003, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Yep, and there's no middle ground. The merchant gets fucked, the consumer gets off...for free.

At a price, they get off. Usually their card is blocked from future transactions with the processor.

12clicks · 07-27-2003, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 49thParallel
This is the official announcement that Globill has sent out that would indicate that the $750 fee quoted by IBILL, CCBILL, EPOCH & PAYCOM is NOT industry wide. (and no, I don't work for Globill...they sent me this notice, as I currently use them as my processor of choice)..

As I mentioned in another thread...Globill appears to run a tighter ship..no free trials...and a closer reign on the other paysite dirty tricks...so perhaps they will be able to remain out of the crosshairs of VISA regulators:

As part of this restructuring, Glo-Bill has also moved all of its processing to a stable and reputable offshore bank. Previously Glo-Bill processed through a combination of offshore and domestic banks. An important reason for this move is that Visa and Mastercard have new regulations for their US member banks that should be going into effect before the end of the year. These new regulations will make business much more expensive for those third-party billing companies and their clients who choose to remain under the jurisdiction of the US merchant banking system. It would also force billing companies to divulge certain client information to Visa/Mastercard (web site URLs, income, contact info, etc.) and to essentially blacklist any individual client who exceeds Visa/Mastercard chargeback limits for even one month. Glo-Bill found many measures in these new rules to be overly broad and an apparent attempt to gouge our industry for extra cash. Glo-Bill is convinced that it will emerge as one of the strongest and most stable billing companies due to its decision to move its processing fully offshore.

ahahahahahaha, this guys fucking brilliant.

tell me moron, do you dream about the Fry-O-Lator buzzer when you're sleeping?

Platinum Dave · 07-27-2003, 09:03 PM

One comment.

No one is out of the cross hairs of Visa as posted in the first post in this thread.

thats all I have to say.

10-02-2002, 04:53 PM	#54
Brown Bear Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,982	I'm guessing beastiality must be legal in the Netherlands huh? __________________ Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

10-02-2002, 10:02 PM	#59
Pornkings Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Roger V Posts: 5,334	The shakedown has begun hold on to your Peckers. Start building personal Relationships with people you can contact and trust. __________________ Pornkings.com

10-02-2002, 10:24 PM	#60
nuclei old school fart Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 1,015	In case a lot of you did not get the entire gist of what visa is doing... They have made it so that everyone who uses PSIP's (third party billers) are now essentially under the exact same canopy as having your own merchant account... you don't of course, but you do have to follow the same regulations/ratios as if you had one otherwise you'll be terminated. In other words, you are now paying 15% of your cash for no extra protections. __________________ The next generation of SEO

10-02-2002, 10:34 PM	#61
kevinl Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: US Posts: 261	I ask this on the other thread but I will ask it here. Can Globill have found a way to avoid the new regs. while ibill,ccbill, and epoch got nailed with them ? I process with both Globill and CCbill and both are great companies and seem to be run great but what advantage would there be to having ibill, ccbill, and epoch over globill after Nov. 15? Where can I buy globill stock? you are fixing to rake it in. __________________ kevinl

10-02-2002, 10:50 PM	#62
Mutt Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 34,431	I'm not going to hurl shit at Glo-Bill over the plan they have which they say allows them to carry on business as usual. It is true that Glo-Bill, has always run the tightest ship, you can't run scams using Glo-Bill easily. Unlike IBill. You wanna blame any one third party processor, start with IBill. BUT if you think their plan is going to work long term, you are burying your head in the sand. Be prepared one day to wake up and have NO processing. Before you put all your eggs in the Globill basket, ask Globill which banks and in which countries those banks are located. Do you want to risk your business and those of your affiliates on banks located on the island of OoogaBooga? I have to check into this more, I don't think this means that you personally have to reside in the United States to use any of the third party processors. It does mean that you will have to set up an American corporation though. There are lots of companies who will do this for you. __________________ I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!

10-02-2002, 04:33 PM	#52
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	yes,that's what they claim of course now monitoring of sites passes on a new level.

10-02-2002, 04:48 PM	#53
[Labret] Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: Са́нкт-Петербу́рг Posts: 10,945	The beast sites all just moved to a Dutch processor. The scrub is lower, allowed the beast producers to eliminate all the copyright infringement. The so called crackdown was a blessing for many. Beast is better off now than it was 6 months ago. Cept for all the people that took it in the ass from CCBill.

10-02-2002, 11:07 PM	#65
Mutt Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 34,431	nuclei is right, even though you're still using third party processing you're going to be treated like you do own your own. And the third party processors FINALLY are going to have to do what they should have been doing all along, policing their clients and getting rid of the bad ones. So if you can get a merchant account of your own, you really should now. Here's what I want to know. If you get kicked out by one of the third party processors who are now going to be much more discriminating about who they process for, do you get reported to VISA and are then blacklisted from ALL third party processing? Sounds like it to me. Whoaaaaaaaaaaaa...............talk about thinning out the herd if that happens. Well I think I know some happy people tonight, the check processors and Paypal. Anybody know how and if Paypal will be affected by this? __________________ I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!

10-02-2002, 11:18 PM	#66
Mutt Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 34,431	Those beast sites who just rip off content are living dangerously. Supposedly there is only one company who dominates beastie content and the mystery people who own it play rough with content infringers. Rough as in dropping you into the ocean wearing cement shoes. __________________ I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!

10-02-2002, 11:30 PM	#67
Socks Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 8,475	Who are the dutch processors?

10-03-2002, 12:57 AM	#69
SpeakEasy Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Internet Posts: 2,681	Kimmy, some of us here are having a discussion on this current, fairly major CC situation. You just keep blabbing and throwing out Names at people, I'm assuming you have nothing constructive to add so why don't you keep your nasty comments and name calling to yourself!!!!!

10-09-2002, 06:28 AM	#72
stagman Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 1	anyone out there using globill as their primary? hows it compare to epoch? thanks in advance.. __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

10-09-2002, 07:05 AM	#73
wallstreetduo Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 17	A not so little birdie told me yesterday that VISA is taking a very close look at Globills "unique" offer. A very close look. Let's see their postings after 11/15 when they are in VISA sights with $25,000 per merchant per month fines - which, by the way, the merchants are liable for. These fines go all the way up to $100,000 per month. So tread carefully. The big guys know what they're doing. __________________ Wallstreetduo

10-09-2002, 08:45 PM	#74
worm Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1	For the mathematically challenged... Global charges %1 more than CCBill. So if a website grosses $1442 / week, it's cheaper to stick with CCBill and pay the $750. You'll recoop the initiation money in a year. After the first year, a website needs to gross $721 / week to make CCBill the better deal. My hunch would be to stay with CCBill if a website is near or above these values...since one is likely to lose customers during the switch. Heck, 4 lost rebills at $25 is a $100. Of course, these numbers double if MC joins the Visa bandwagon. Has anyone else found other considerations?

10-10-2002, 02:36 AM	#77
Webby Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Far far away - as possible Posts: 14,956	Adrian - Globill: All I can say is that Globill has had the foresight to act and create relationships internationally - I am sure this will be appreciated by more as time goes by. As for VISA US, this banking region for any non - US citizens is now a joke and not commercially worth consideration. As for US citizens it simply means you must now account for eating breakfast to VISA US (and rest assured, your data will be of interest to "others"). Thank you for keeping us posted!

10-11-2002, 03:52 PM	#78
markusborger So Fucking Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 145	hahaha..... 1) we have our malling server fucked-up or 2) DiBill didn´t sent us any notice at all about all this VISA bullshit

10-17-2002, 05:18 AM	#80
nexuth Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 5	Hey everyone... I don't know if anyone has read this article regarding Visa but its got most angles covered...from the "its all going to be okay" to "extreme paranoia" http://www.avnonline.com/issues/2002...002_lead.shtml Its essential reading... And just to stir the hornets nest more...this is from Verotel's site: "Because Verotel provides its processing services for content subscriptions only, and not for product sales (physical goods), Verotel is classified as a 'TicketMaster', in the same way a company could be classified selling tickets for concerts or shows online." http://www.verotel.com/ipsp.html er, hello...i know some 3rd party companies allow for subscriptions AND physical goods, so why are they not making the distinction and deciding to apply the fees across the board? Then again, Verotel isn't based in the USA, so they are, so far, exempt. Another thought: Can't all USA based web companies switch to overseas 3rd party processors? This obviously is not taking into consideration that lost repeat billing will cost everyone a fortune. But from what I understand, it is an option. I checked out http://www.globosale.net/ and they seem quite cool. I'm sure Visa won't want to fuck with the Swiss banking system too much, although this latter comment is not based on any knowledge I have. I could be way, way off....but globosale seem real cool.... good luck everyone

07-27-2003, 04:27 PM	#82
Indy the real one Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 130	The wind turned... __________________ Nothing 2 sale...

07-27-2003, 04:38 PM	#83
stocktrader23 Let's do some business. Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The dirty south. Posts: 18,781	[QUOTE]Originally posted by 49thParallel [B]This is the official announcement that Globill has sent out that would indicate that the $750 fee quoted by IBILL, CCBILL, EPOCH & PAYCOM is NOT industry wide. (and no, I don't work for Globill...they sent me this notice, as I currently use them as my processor of choice).. Are they still your processor of choice? I need to get hooked up. __________________ Hands Free Adult - Join Once, Earn For Life "I try to make a habit of bouncing my eyes up to the face of a beautiful woman, and often repeat “not mine” in my head or even verbally. She’s not mine. God has her set aside. She’s not mine. She’s His little girl, and she needs me to fight for her by keeping my eyes where they should be."

07-27-2003, 09:03 PM	#86
Platinum Dave Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,441	One comment. No one is out of the cross hairs of Visa as posted in the first post in this thread. thats all I have to say. __________________ Check out Adult Rental - Only Pay Per Signup VOD!