Sorry to annoy you.

"Things that may you go hmm", are things that make one ask questions.

Such as, if Alexa stats are so meaningless, then why do so many major corporations use them in making multi-million dollar advertising decisions?

The only people I have heard berate Alexa to the extent that you have, are adult sponser programs. Why is that?

And, if 12Clicks is not doing anything to manipulate traffic, then why would my small company have a higher traffic ranking, even without utilizing an affiliate program?

ADG

answer this then steve

name one revshare program that has actually calculated a fair value of all the cross-sales, upsells etc in terms of a revshare % payout. my guess is that they'd have to pay way above 60% and the majority of revshare programs don't even pay that much

I know there are terms and conditions, and I know there are different models, but that really comes down to, do they shave openly?


ALSO, Add in: when a user's credit card either maxes or expires, the surfer then inputs another credit card after typing in the url, and joins again.

Does the affiliate get credit??



Moocash doesn't shave. PERIOD. It takes a lot of effort to make sure webmasters get credit for life, but isn't that what you expect???

fair value to who? who decides what a fair value is?

Time to bring back an old, but still relevent, rant...

SPONSORS WANTED:

I'd like to find someone who will recruit hot new 18 year old girls that are willing to model nude, then pay her and take her pictures, then update her website regularly and host it on a super reliable, ultrafast server. Also, you'll need to buy lots of extra picture and video content so I won't lose a rebill too soon. Can you also make sure I get credit if my signup quits but comes back later as a typein?

I'd also like you to cover all the legal expenses, processing costs, and pay the visa registration fees. But don't send me a 1099, I don't want all that tax liablility!

I'd like you to provide full page ads, banners (odd-sizes work best for me), and maybe even agree to pay my hosting bill. And I'll need lots of free content. Not the same free content you give everyone, I need new exclusive content just for me. I'll need hosted picture and movie galleries too, on a fast server. Can your hottest girl make me a fansign? I want to tell all my buddies I fucked her! Better yet, can I just have sex with her first, to see if she's worthy of my traffic?

On your free content, don't write your url anywhere. and don't put too many ads on them, my surfers don't like ads. Can you submit all your newest hosted galleries to all the TGPS with my affiliate code for me?

I'd like you to throw huge parties where I can drink myself silly, while I oggle your hot girls and generally make an ass of myself. I'm gonna need a rug to put out my cigarette on. And a wall to kick a hole in. I get silly sometimes.

I want you to take me to strip clubs, and I want you to buy me lapdances all night long. If I host a convention, I'll expect you to sponsor it (and if there aren't enough of naked chicks, I'm going to tell everyone it was a sausage fest!)

I'll need you to buy a banner spot and post regularly on my obscure message board.

I want you to do all that for no more than 40% of the net revenue that her site generates. I don't want a minimum payout, send me a check for 25 cents if I earned it. Instant payouts would be best, I don't like to wait for my money. I don't care if you have to, thats your problem.

I might even ask you to prepay me even if I can't get her site to convert. And you can pay me by check, but I tend to lose them, so you'll need to be willing to re-issue the ones I lose. But going to the bank is such a hassle, could I just have a wire instead? You'll need to eat the wire fees. Or Epassporte, can you set me up with an account? I don't want to pay for it though, so just add their fees to my payout too, ok?

Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that I'm going to accuse you of shaving and cheating if I can't convert any traffic at 1:500 or better. If you are a day late on my payment, I will publicly crucify you. And I'm gonna need a constant supply of new sites from you, I get tired of looking at the old ones after a couple weeks.

And you better not take a day off, if I try to icq you and you are not there within a few minutes, I'm dropping my links! And no matter how few sales I send, I expect you to drop everything and talk to me as long as I want. I'll need lots of advice and support, you don't mind do you?

I want reward points and christmas cards are nice too. Fly me to a convention and pay for my room. But it better be a suite, I need space. Give me bonuses and prizes. And hookers, lots of 'em. Don't forget I'll also need a non-expiring password to your sites too for "educational" purposes. When I promote your site, I want to be able to say anything to the surfer to make a sale, I don't care if its true or not, pleasing the surfer is your problem.

I'm gonna need a cool baseball jersey customized with my name and favorite number on the back...

And no matter what you do for me, I might just decide to try someone else's program for a while, cuz you are probably making too much money anyway on typeins and upsells... And if you get someone else pushing your sites, I'm going to drop you completely, because then you'll be "over saturated".

Oh yeah, and you are gonna need lots of sites, and I want to be paid on sales to all of them from your exits. Better yet, I'll require no-console linking codes, cuz I hate popups. But don't even think about paying me less for my joins. And FUCK crosssells, unless I'm paid for those too.

You'll need to join the lawsuit against Acacia, I don't care how much it costs. But if you settle, I'll tear you apart on the boards and recommend that everyone boycotts you. Can you cover my membership to FSC too?

And I want to lump you in with all the scammers and scumballs that have ever made money on the net. I don't care if you are honest, I have to blame someone for a bad week, and its gonna be you.

Oh yeah, and for your 40%, I want to be able to break my promises anytime, I really don't want you to be able to rely on me. I'll send you traffic when I fucking feel like it. But if you break one of YOUR promises to ME, I'll drop you and move on. Actually, I'll just move on anyway, cuz my attention span is short, and there is always someone willing to do more for me than you.

fair value with respect to the advertised %... if i join a program that says: we split revenues 60/40 but if you take the $$$ the sponsor is making with all the upsells, cross-sales, etc and it actually represents 80%, its obviously not fair to the affiliate.

Ray, you've been an affiliate of ours for about 5 years and we've paid you thousands and thousands of dollars. You already know the answer to the question. We don't credit ACH sales for lots of reasons but we factor their value into the PPS that affiliates receive.

Do you understand the behavior of ACH? How long the settlement times are? the %age of sales that ACH represents? the %age of transactions that actually do setlle? Our goal is to provide our affiliates with easiest way to make the highest PPS possible. I won't respond to any more of your posts, if your implication is that we set out to deceive our affiliates, you're wrong.

when hairy met sally :1orglaugh

classic :upsidedow

hahaha, thats classic.
and sadly back when webmasters became millionaires, this was not their mindset.

hahaha, son, believe it or not, when you make false accusations about someone's business, you lost the argument.

I really don't know why you idiots bother. You come into these threads to be noticed, are schooled in the REAL workings of the business and end up looking like a fool.

I'm sure you have an agenda but looking like a chump infront of people who've forgotten more about this business than you'll ever know is no way to go thru life.
:1orglaugh

Is someone bragging about a 68K Alexa rank is this thread?

Im a moron and never owned anything but your post proves why your so succesful...Everyone who has been a dick should just appolagize now....

and Ron I just skiped every post till i saw yours. This could be your best piece of work. Just a classic. Best entertainment ever. Your a fucken riot. I'd bet you added like 50 affiliates from this post...btw I met Rabbit in amsterdam and he seems to be a very intelligent quiet guy and you guys would hit it off---in a gay way lol

thats what the flight attendant in coach said.:1orglaugh

Actually I did think of cross sales and upsells when I built my program. I pay a true 60%, I cover processing fees, and I split payment fees, cb fees, ect. So with me you really get more than 60%. I credit on errors, login errors, anything I can track within reason, is tracked for the Webmaster.

So with xsales & upsells, combine the money together for a month on these two revenue streams. Then look at the money my "private" pps exits produce, and it's 2-3 times the amount of xsales & upsells.

I will give up my xsales/upsells any day if I can have the 1st exit on my revshare program for myself.

to start a thread complaining about how the people you currently do business with do not pay you for revenues not agreed to in your contract is simply ridiculous.

but starting a thread calling the people you do business with thieves and criminals for not giving you money on non-contractual revenue is not only highly inappropriate it shows a complete lack of business sense.


why would anyone call the very people that provide that person a good living felons in a public forum? or otherwise really.


strange.

Some of you seem confused on Alexa..

Alexa only works, when I run it for my own sites that are promoted the same way in the same niches. I can make my alexa ranking anything, it's very easy to cheat it.

I can make my alexa ranking jump 10,000%, by spamming an asian boards. My Webmaster site(s) get 1000% less traffic than my paysites, but often rank just about the same. More asians use Alexa than anyone else, more Webmasters use it than Porn Surfers.

You can install the Alexa bar yourself and start hitting your sites and your ranking will improve, get a few friends and your off to making yourself think you had growth.

Keep on digging that grave 12clicks !!

Absolutely Brilliant
 

Very well said !!

Rabbit, you know I value you as an affiliate, and I'm not saying that you don't have some valid points here. But the word "shaving" implies intentional dishonesty on the sponsor's part. I have taken great pride in making Lightspeedcash the most honest and fair revshare program possible, and there are many other honest revshare sponsors, too. It is a slap in the face to be accused to intentional cheating or dishonestly.

I could add to my rant above with comments about review sites:

"I want to build a network of paysite reviews to get top listings on all the search engines using your trademarked names. I'll pretend to be a consumer-advocate, but don't ask me to link to you without an affiliate code, that won't be possible. I need to pan a few sites to gain my surfers trust, I'm sorry if one might be yours.

If you cut a special pricing deal for my surfers only, I'll give you a slightly higher ranking.

Don't worry about the money I make by diverting surfers to sites I think are better than yours, even if they came to my review page because they were interested in your site. I think 40 extra links per page is quite reasonable.

And if I hear about your solo model quitting, I'll have to tell the world. My readers need to know if they aren't getting new content shot this week. And please re-edit your entire content library yearly, cuz I hate smaller images and movies not encoded in the highest possible bitrates.

Oh, and I'll make a special section for my surfers to share their opinions about your site, good or bad. But don't ask me to edit the bad ones, even if they are blatantly unfair.

And let me apologize in advance for asking my crankiest reviewer to review your sites, he's the only one available. I hope you have lots of hardcore on your softcore sites, cuz he only likes hardcore."

Steve Lightspeed

I can keep going:

"We give highest reviews to megasites, so you'll need to bundle all your sites into one giant unprofitable package. And lower your price too, its way too expensive. Be sure to let us know right away if you make any improvements to your site based on things we'll suggest. We'll add you to the queue and get it re-reviewed within 6 months or so."

and i wont say that you don't make any either.

but trying to divert attention from the issue raised only shows how weak your arguments against my issues are.

Is any business porn or mainstream truly honest!

I agree that we earn some revenue on our sites that cannot possibly be credited to affiliates directly. That is why instead of a 50/50 split, including splitting the processing costs, we pay 60% + all fees + reward points, to share our "indirect revenue" fairly with our affiliates.

He didn't divert from the issue at all, he confronted it directly. The truth is your view of shaving is irrelevant, that goes for All Webmasters.

You guys don't get to decide what we get to do or how we what to do it. I can tell you tomorrow to pull the thumbnail next to my review, you either do it or pull the review, you have no choice or you won't get paid. The point is, it's 100% my program and my way, period.

Programs don't need Webmasters but Webmasters do need Programs.

YES. Absolutely ! Just like any business, or in everyday life for that matter, there are honest people, and dis-honest people. How can you group all business owners into one big group of lying, cheating, dishonest pricks ? It is a pretty ridiculous accusation.

Hey by all means Im not saying that you are not an honest business man and I certianly did not call business owners "lying cheating, dishonest pricks".
I said that because I can allways remeber when my dad had his own building business, he was as honest as he could be in "business" I was getting at things like undercutting his business opponents getting a very good "tax accountant" making sure his books balance. People are in business to make money and not to be nice to every Tom Dick and Harry and to be quite frank I dont blame a lot of them.

Did you read the TOS? Does the TOS specify what types of revanue that you recieve a % payout on? Does the sponser pay you the % percentage based on the TOS you agreed to?

If the answer to all of the above is 'yes' then no the sponsor is NOT shaving. Your personal opinion of what you feel you should be paid is irrelevant. It's the sponsors show, don't like it? Don't work with them

Using the term 'shave' implies intentional dishonesty\misreported stats. You using it in this context is a slap in the face, as every program owner who's popped into this thread has pointed out.

If the TOS you agreed to doesn't explicitly lay out that you get paid on upsells ETC a sponsor is under no obligation to pay you on those rev streams calling that stealing is just a low blow.

doc, your argument closes discussion. my intent behind this thread was to generate some :)

yes its your program and legally you're free to do whatever you want, as long as you state it up front. but the fact is affiliates will never see such statements, especially not besides those nice revshare tables which show how they can become millionaires just by sending 1 sale a day at 50% recurring. you can put whatever you want in your TOS and get away with it... look at paysites with limited trials... or dating sites with fake profiles. but is that a way to run a business?

i know respectable revshare sponsors that once they got big, they were able to negotiate a better fee % with their processors. however, their affiliates are still paying their share of the old processing costs. sure, you're free to do whatever you want, but i'm asking: is it fair to those people without which you would have never gotten the better rate?

and i dont care if the above sponsor makes me more money that others. speaking of which, your program made our top 10 sponsor list for 2007 and since that reflects on how you run your sites, my respect goes out to you. the same question still stands though: do these kinds of practices really reflect honesty and responsability in our 'symbiotic relationship' as it was called in this thread.

about webmasters needing programs: if i choose to not promote your program, i will still make that sale. it will just go to one of your competitors. on the other hand, if you dont get that sale your revenue is smaller by xx$. as i see it, affiliates with traffic hold the bargaining chip. and it will only get worse for sponsors as the industry is getting more and more saturated with new paysites.

now we're getting into a legal discussion :) i'm not asking what sponsors can do and get away with. i'm asking what is fair and honest, to both sponsors and affiliates?

HEY!!!!!!!!


Where's my fuckin jersey with my name and number on the back homeboy?

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

steve, if you make more money with the 60% you'll get through an upsell than you would with the 40% (less overhead) of your own affiliate's sale, you have every incentive to push your affiliate members to other paysites. why not just pay your affiliates 50% and not have them worry about any lost revenue?

If the sponsor never claims that you will be paid on crosses I don't really see how them not paying you on crosses is dishonest. I suppose the only thing I'd add to that is given that, the term rev share is a bit misleading but bleh I think rev share is silly in any event.

As to if it's fair or not, you'd really have to have an individual companies overall numbers to make an honest judgement. Are they laughing their way to the bank, or do they really need that extra money to remain solvent and pay off operation expenses.

Bottom line is if a company needs the money to stay afloat, all that would happen is they'd credit you on upsells etc and drop the % rev share. While your check at the end of the day would remain more or less unchanged it would kill them in the marketing department when everyone else is offering a higher (albiet deceptive) percentage.

WOW

'bullseye!'

10 years huh? I hope you have a whole bunch of other shit going on besides 12clicks, son. You're definitely impressed with yourself, no doubt.

And btw, I didn't think you had affiliates, just employees?

holy fuck i cant believe someone would say an upsell in a members area is shaving. Now I know the board has gone insane. LOL

Here's a little lesson on who we both are in this biz, punk.
you go ask the most important person you know in this biz about me, I'll go ask the lowliest person I know about you. We'll both get accurate answers. Mine will be what I expected, yours will be a learning experience
hahahaha

fair and honest?
you can get all that you want if you agree to a 20.00 sale (10.00 to you) if you're ready to be fair and honest, them step the fuck up and take it, otherwise STFU with your fair and honest BS :winkwink:

well ours does not. We have a site and nothing that you mentioned. You want a gallery then you make it LOL, no scripts no nothing. Just senidng traffic and getting sales. I even check every sale to see where it came from and if for some reason it did not log it I add it. Done it many times before. Have your friend sign up and let me know and I will refund your money, Whatever it takes. I don't even have time to run it anyway. Filming hot new bitches everyday. Even my face is unshaven :(

Nice one SteveLightspeed... classics is always useful!
Bump for that one.:thumbsup

You crack me up, Bitch. Keep tooting your own horn. We aren't listening. You are a washed up fool in adult. Stay in mainstream because you are just burning bridges with each post here, moron!

Rabbit I am in the same boat as you so don't take this wrong but at one time I was mister 112 on Steve's list and now I am #7. I have to say that Steve is one of the fairest and most honest people out there.

He is constantly accused of paying this girls TOO MUCH!
He is constantly ridiculed for the fact that he pays his affiliates for things like DVD sales.

I agree with you that there is a TON OF BULLSHIT OUT THERE. But please leave one of the most honest guys out of it.

As for 12clicks... Hunting season is open and we are expecting a bountiful crop.

hahaha, sure punk.
do you feel important coming home from the day job and posting this? :1orglaugh

I don't post here very often and I won't pretend to be bigger or richer than anyone else here, but as someone that has never heard of 12clicks before, judging from his comments and the way he has bad mouthed almost every post here, I am sure that I don't care to know him or his program. You probably don't care about that 12clicks, but I thought I would tell you how you are looking to potential sponsors on this thread. You have brought burning bridges to a whole new level. Your very first post says "now the idiots don't even bother hiding their stupidity." and it isn't even directed at you. If you don't know how damaging it can be to say the wrong things or piss off the wrong people for no apparent reason at all, then you are really blind. It's not just myself that would now never do business with you, but anyone that asks me who a great sponsor may be, will not hear 12clicks from me. :2 cents:

That almost brought a tear to my eye. That was beautiful :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

I'm so new I don't even know how to shave. No upsales in my member pages. The only leak/shave I have is the one Rabbit link on my "All About the Pink" So I am shaving a little. Sorry Rabbit thats the only way you'll review my sites

Thanks SHAVE, but THAT was beautiful ! :thumbsup

we do require a recip, but we're flexible on where you put it- most programs put us on their resource page and that's fine.