Because nobody likes to see winners all the time.....they like to root for the underdog......

Read sig.

Mika, just a short one...

I am Jewish, and had family in Finland. I only met them once or twice in my life (too damn cold) but I remember them telling me about having a synagogue-tent in the front-line, and how it pissed off the Nazis fighting along-side the Fins.

In the first half of the 1900s, when Jews in Israel fought the Brits out (it was a British Mandate) to gain independance, it didn't stop many of them to join the British Army in defence of the African fronts fighting alongside the Brits against the Nazis in Africa.

In deed, times of war bring about strange pacts.

Having said that, there is one evil from those days Finland didn't wash its hands off yet... A research by the University of Jyväskylä, Finland, exposes the systematic assets/art loot and assets/art laundry mechanisms employed by the colaborating German Nazi regime and the Fin government. Many looted art masterpieces and much looted gold was laundered in and by Finland, which is yet to return or compensate its legal owners - many of them murdered Jews from other European states.

well, lets help this thread along a bit.

Its amazing to see the lack of understanding you all have on all subjects.
colin, please. giving handouts causes people to not like us?
what exactly would they say when we didn't help?
oh, boo hoo the US didn't help kuwait so they could buy oil from iraq.
When you have the ablility to do EVERYTHING, someone always says you're wrong no matter what you do.

As far as WWII goes. boy do they teach a funny version of history outside the US (I guess this is how they pretend their country was important during the war)
Mica, finland should THANK the US every day for WWII. If England declared war on finland, the soviets declared war and the US didn't........let me ask you, who won the war? As I recall the last armies standing were UK, USSR, US, Aussies, and some other too small to be named armies. If UK and USSR were at war with you and THEY won, why weren't you treated like the germans or the japs? Because even then, what the US says, goes. And we said,"leave the finns alone."
As far as the US's part in the war. we won it. simple as that.
the nazis controlled EVERY country in europe except for England. They were pounding russia into submission. europe (incuding whatever little country you dopes are from) had already LOST THE WAR. Russia would have been defeated if the Germans didn't have to fight the US in europe. Did the winter kill the germans? sure it played a part but if the germans didn't have to split their supplies and efforts to fight the US, Russia would have fallen.

The US won your countries back from the nazis, paying for it in American blood while most of your grandfathers were figuring out how to appease their nazi overlords.
So, while the US and tiny australia where fighting japan alone, they also won back your pansy assed europe for you.

The UK, who are our staunchest allies always, were more heroic and worth more in WWII than the entire rest of europe. Hey, what did they call the nazi sympathizers in france? there were so many of them they had their own name.:1orglaugh vichy?

So after seeing what happends to you europian pansies when you appease a meglomaniac dictator (giving hitler poland) you STILL get in the US's way when they handle YOUR business at OUR expense.

If we were REALLY out for ourselves, we'd let iraq have kuwait and the rest of the middle east then when europe was stangling from lack of oil (the US wouldn't be because we can afford much more because of our lack of socialistic expenses) and begging for an attack, we'd walk in and take it over the way we took over japan after WWII. We'd have control of the oil and be happy. Right?

I completely agree with you that the US should mind its own business. We should give zero aid to the rest of the world. ZERO.
What you europian crybabies don't understand is that if we stop sending billions of dollars a year overseas in the form of aid, countries in YOUR back yard will become unstable and become a problem for europe to handle.
We pay to keep the world stable every day. We do the best we can. We do more than anything the little country you're from could EVER do and all we ask for in return is for you to not get in the way and you can't even manage that!
we gave up on expecting a "thank you" long ago.:321GFY

"colin, please. giving handouts causes people to not like us? "

"Handouts" often confirm the feelings of superiority of the giver and the feelings of inferiority on the part of the receiver often leading to resentment and a complete breakdown of the relationship.

Perceived debt can be a very bad thing for any relationship. There are many case-studies that show if a debt between friends becomes too much of a burden , the friendship is frequently broken off by the debtor. Regret frequently follows - funny enough -- on the part of the debtor.

and thats somehow the givers fault.
I get it.:winkwink:

No (laugh), I didn't say it was the giver's fault. I said the opposite really, "This is a nasty habit of human nature. "

It's a (partial) explanation of a seemingly strange phenomenon - not a statement of who is to blame.

At last... I knew one day I will find something in common with 12clicks. I don't think there is a nation on this earth more proud than the French. The UK was fighting the Germans for years, paying a high price - and lived to win and tell. The French collapsed gave up and gave in after a few hours. Not only they didn't fight - they immediately cooperated and collaborated with the Nazis and formed their own little Nazi government. What nation of cowards. Shame on the west for liberating it. Shame for a single American or British soldier giving his life for these ungrateful people. If it wasn't for the few and heroic Resistance-Worriers I would leave them to rot with the Nazis.

Really? I'm not familiar with such a research. I found this summary about Sweden, though

"In February 1997, the Swedish government established a Commission on Jewish Assets in Sweden at the Time of the Second World War. The final report, Sweden and Jewish Assets, was published in March, 1999. Among other findings, the Commission determined that, during the war, the Swedish central bank had accepted financial transfers from Germany in the form of gold bars and coins, a small portion of which might have been confiscated by Germany from Jews. Further, the Commission questioned the necessity of these transfers, and criticized the absence of debate over the morality of accepting gold, some of which might have originated from plundered assets. In addition, the Commission faulted the postwar Swedish Foreign Capital Control Office, charged with liquidating German business assets in Sweden, for not having exercised more actively its authority to trace the disposition of German-owned assets to victims of Nazi persecution. The Commission did not find direct evidence of Swedish businesses or individuals profiting from dealing in looted Jewish properties transferred to Sweden. The Commission concluded by recommending further research, particularly on the question of whether Swedish trade with Germany helped prolong the war, and on the relationships between Swedish and Jewish-owned businesses.


In March 1998, the Swedish government published a list of 649 inactive bank accounts, some of which might have belonged to Jews who perished in the Holocaust. "
---

Finland's record looks cleaner to me

"German troops were present in Finland not as occupiers, but as co-belligerents. The Finnish government retained full sovereignty throughout the war. No Jewish property was confiscated. After the war, the Finnish government conducted investigations on the question of Jewish property, and ascertained that no assets were confiscated. In addition, a study by the Bank of Finland established that no gold or other holdings of German origin were received and held by Finland. Also, Finland's banks declared that they held no dormant accounts, and the insurance companies found no problematic policies.

Finland's government permits researchers free access to its wartime archives. "

But if you say there is such a research by University of Jyväskylä, then there probably is.

You seem to have some kind of conflict in your logic.
You're implying that US's contribution to Allies was so powerful, that if US didn't join the war, the Nazis would have won.

That said, if Germany won, and we were allied with Germany, we would be in the winner's side, right?

However, since US joined the war, and won, you're saying that Finland still has to thank USA. Now why is that?

Seems like Finnish politicians played their cards extremely well, because you're saying that Finland was in win-win situation. With or without USA joining the war we would have had a good result in the end.

Mika, I don't think the research stated looting domestically. I think it stated facilitating laundry transactions for the Germans, regarding looting in greater Europe. I think I can trace the author of the report if you want more details.

Regardless and whatever the case, I am sure Finland was the least evil of so many other regimes at those dark years. As for art looting, I think that every European Museum that "respects itself" has many looted master-pieces on display. In that area too I am sure Finland is not a noticeable evil...

That would be good if it wouldn't cause too much trouble. This subject started to interest me, I need to know all there is, when damn foreigners start to accuse my grandfather being a nazi ;)

Thanks

This I am not sure. I don't think the Nazis had fallen for Finland. It was all interests. They NEEDED Finland at that specific time in its war against the USSR. If the US didn't join the war and if the allies didn't win the war, and asuming the Nazis would enjoy hegemonial control over Europe - as soon as their interest would change and they won't NEED Finland to be independent - they would scrap it for parts. I doubt the result would be good for Finland either-way. As far as the Nazis are concerned I doubt you were considered pure enough for self-rule.

Me neither. Just speculating :)

Here is a quick quote, with reference to the authors of the research:

---------------------

FINLAND AS RELOCATION REGION OF NAZI-LOOTED ART

Research project ?Distributors of European art legacy ? Finland as relocation region of Nazi-looted art? has been started at the University of Jyväskylä, Finland. With this research Finland rises to the challenge of studying Nazi loots. The research discovers to what extend art that Nazis looted with political reasons during the Second World War was relocated into Finland and via which routes. Furthermore, the ideological relations between the Finnish art collectors and Nazi Germany will be clarified, as well as the impact of these relations on art acquisition and its ethical aspects. The project also studies the influence of National Socialist Germany on the Finnish art life and cultural policy during the 1930s and 1940s. Finnish academic art research and museum work have always had solid relations with Germany.

Behalf of the project group,

M.A. Tiina Koivulahti and M.A. Maarit Hakkarainen
University of Jyväskylä, Finland
Department of Arts and Culture Studies

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Sometimes I think that communism in Europe is still alive. Just look at the EU, run by liberal bleeding hearts.

hahaha

While the US May not be on the side of the angels every time, it sure beats the fuck out of the other alternatives! Having lived in Europe behind the iron courtain during the Cold War, America was a shining beacon of light to those of us of free tought ! Being a superpower does mean that you do get your hands dirty, but show me one that does not have bloodied hands. While it is not an excuse to be an opressor , like I said it sure beats the fuck out the alternatives! LONG LIVE AMERICA

Of course, America it is not only shit but as far as I am concerned I would like to see a "Global Authority" controlling America and Americans from birth to death.

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Hey you stupid bitch, nobody can control us.

Oooops... I am sure now...
;-)

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The war with the USSR was over, but there were still German troops in the north of Finland. They would not leave voluntarily, so Finland had to drive them out. As they left, the German troops destroyed most of what they passed through - 90 % of the forests, villages and cities. Every house and barn in Lapland was burned, and the market town of Rovaniemi laid waste. Large herds of reindeer were slaughtered. In Finland every ninth citizen lost his home to German invader. People lived in dugouts, huts and tents. The Germans had blown up all power stations, bridges and buildings, and mined all the fields. Eighty percent of Finland had to be rebuilt. The destruction wrought by the Germans made Finland the most devastated region of Europe.

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And this they did as allies... Time to thank America... Of all the corrupt and power-crazed superpowers to have roamed the earth in the last 2000 years, it is of the most righteous.

All the Commie Bastards who were in power then,(and stole everyone blind) just changed shirts and now they are Capitalists!

You have that right. All these "MORAL" people from Europe make me laugh.
What Europe gave the world in the last 100 years?
WWI
WWII
Fascism
Communism
Nazi Death Camps
Gulags
Berlin Wall
Even on the net 90% of cheaters are from that fucked up continent

Almost every American has some direct relation to WWII. My Uncle Tony fought in the war; He married my Aunt Paulette while he was stationed there. My step father was a teen in France during WWII; He tells me storys about playing with hand gernades.

My Polish Grandmother lived in Poland; Her entire family was killed by the Germans, and her house burned to the ground.

Your missing the entire point of why WWII was brought into this duscussion - We were never attacked by Germany, yet we were willing to send our armies to Europe because we believe we were right in doing so. We weren't defending the US; We weren't protecting our interests; We were righting what we saw as being wrong.

This is why US troops were in Africa. What interests are protecting in Africa? Or Korea? Or Vietnam?

And we supported Saddam at first. He did wonderful things for Iraq. He created a national school system for Iraq, as well as telephone service. But during the Iraq-Iran war he started using chemical weapons, which we don't support. Then he attacked Kuwait without reason.

Then explain to me what the fuck Finland has done for any other country, ever? Do they send billions of dollars of aid to third world countries? Does France? Or Turkey? Or Iraq?

The US is a melting pot. People in Europe complain about McDonalds and Pizzia Hut; But yet there is a killer Italian deli a block from my house. I had Pizza yesterday, and from my house I can see the place where I get my Chinese take out.

The last time I visited Europe was in the late '80s. Their thoughts about Americans were that we are "dirty" and "disgusting". However, their TV showed soft core porn, their children drank wine at the dinner table, and fucking Madoona and Michael Jackson played on their radios.

What gives? Everything the US does is bad? 250,000 Americans lost their lives in your fucking war, then we rebuilt Europe - And the US is "bad"?

People hate america cause we have bigger and better bombs. Kill em all and let god sort em out. Yee haa. Getting my new mullet today and just put a down payment on a '78 trans am. Yee Haa!

Do most Americans think that living in Europe is THAT much different from the USA? All your nice little gadgets and technological advancements have made it over the ocean. And don't forget that there are more highly technological nations on this earth that produce these handy tools.

---------------------------

Yes it's very different.
In Europe you have a freedom to carry your ID card, you have a freedom to pay high taxes, you dont have a open space like we do so you have to live in small over crowded countries, you have a freedom to pay high gas prices, you have a freedom to buy some little piece of shit car cause you can not afford to buy gas for a real car.

I would guess USA's foreign aid per capita is not that much larger than that of any other Western countries, could be even less.

Yep. Here you go ;)



On a per capita basis, how much did each U.S. citizen give as official development aid in 1997?


A) $184 per person

B) $26 per person

C) $2.40 per person

D) $327 per person



Answer:
B. $26 per person


In 1997, the United States gave $6.88 billion in non-military aid to developing countries.


In absolute terms, only Japan and France were more generous. But on a per capita basis, the United States ? among the major donor nations ? ranked ahead of only Portugal and Italy.

Good for them. But I think even $26 is too much

Haha Drew, you crack me up cowboy.

You obviously have never been to the EU.

So Stalin was.....ummm, BETTER for us to deal with than Hitler?

Hitler's death count: +/- 6 million
Stalin's death count: +/- 200 million (will anyone ever really know?)

Oh and Drewkid,

How does it feel to have European blood flowing through your veins? (the blood is obviously not arriving in your head, but that is another story.).

"What Europe gave the world in the last 100 years?"

Well, a lot actually.

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"Almost every American has some direct relation to WWII."

Yup. Most that I know. My grandfather served in the Navy. I have his medals.

============
"we have bigger and better bombs. "

THIS is what makes America great. :-)
BIG EXPENSIVE WEAPONS!

(NOTE: Hockey makes Finland great. That is good too.)

============
"In 1997, the United States gave $6.88 billion in non-military aid to developing countries."

Generous. Don't forget the military aid! Having a large population shouldn't be held against a country.

You a reader of the globalist?
http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/St...x?StoryId=1102

Dear liberal ControlThy.
I spent 5 months in so called EU 3 years ago. I am 35 years of age and only once in the states I had been stoped by cops for speeding. In those 5 months I was stoped about 20 times without any reason, and asked for ID. I think France is the worst.

ControlThy
I have a better idea. Since you dont like US stop using any US based program. I am sure you dont need bad US dollars. You can start your own European based programs and cheat each other, since most of the cheaters are Europeans.

Wow, that is so bad.

I have been to most EU states and never had these problems, I own real estate in several states so I get to travel alot and never was I stopped for speeding.

Maybe you shouldn't drive 100 miles per hour?

How about the blacks in the US that get stopped without a reason? Are they innocent too?

America is just a word but I use it.
Language keeps me locked and repeating.
All work and no play makes fletch a dull boy.
America is just a word but I use it.
Language keeps me locked and repeating.
All work and no play makes fletch a dull boy.
America is just a word but I use it.
Language keeps me locked and repeating.
All work and no play makes fletch a dull boy.
America is just a word but I use it.
Language keeps me locked and repeating.
All work and no play makes fletch a dull boy.

That's patently untrue. Sure, there were Nazi sympathyzers in Finland, just like there were in lots of other countries, and some collaborated. Finland didn't have a CHOICE about helping Germany, for the most part - and why shouldn't they turn to the only folks offering them help when they were attacked. Hell's bells, Russia finally won only through sheer numbers - they probably lost 10x the number of troops the Finns did.

The whole politics of WWII is a hell of a lot more complicated than most Americans realize. We sat over here watching the facists overthrow the elected government of Spain and did nothing. We watched the Finns attacked by Russia and did nothing. We watched the French and others be overrun and did very little.

Who said I don't like the US?

I don't use any sponsor programs except for 1 which isn't US based, so sorry.

"All work and no play makes fletch a dull boy. "

HAHA

"What Europe gave the world in the last 100 years?"

Well, a lot actually.



LOL
A lot is not a answer. Tell me what.

That fight in Turkey has been going on since 1920 (+/-), and it's been a constant struggle. They are fighting a serious fundamentalist political movement at the moment, from what I understand.