Maybe its just me but I don't think anyone wants to launch nuclear war. Its all about big business and who has the biggest cock fight.
I agree with the US protecting itself but we also stick our nose in other peoples business that we shouldn't.

There is alot that goes on behind closed doors that we don't know anything about.

Seems like a lot more people in here know the REAL TRUTH. All about the oil....

Well said. There is a lot of relevant information that we simply don't have access to.

For example whether the Iraq really has nukes or not, and whether they have good missiles to carry those nukes - to Israel, Europe or even ballistic missiles.

We don't have this info but I'm sure someone has.

:thumbsup

Never trust anyone who got arrested for stealing a Chrismas tree :winkwink:

WOW.... A stunningly relevant NEWS STORY breaks during this thread...

US 'was partly to blame' for terror attacks'

Now I believe this to be a rather steamy story especially this time of year. I do not agree with the story, and it is peculiar that this just came out within days of the anniversary.

Wonder where they got their numbers? On the 'Today' show I believe it was, this morning or yesterday, they had a poll result that showed that the for, against and undecided percentages were very close together, both in the polls for with UN help and without. All in the high 20's to low-mid thirties.

Polls, p'tooey... depends on where you take them and the age range of the participants. :glugglug

True, but I'm going to believe the Financial Times before I believe NBC.

It's a shame that's what international media has come down to.

CD that's the fucking funny part. They just got it. ahahhhhahhhahhaaaaa

Bleh to Baywatch and the Dow Corning girls...

We're waiting (impatiently I might add) for Richard Dean Anderson to sign the darn contract to reprise MacGyver!!

Posted by CDSmith, Canada
Replied by Milos Berg, Berlin, Germany

>> Kosovo--- Need I really continue on here? <<

No, because you obviously don?t know anything about it.

>> The Serbs were invading,... <<

The Serbs weren?t invading but defending its own land. The holly land. This is where first South Slav settlers set their first settlements back in IX century. The only place on Earth that has older Christian Eastern Orthodox churches than Kosovo is Halkidiki (spelling...), Greece.

This was Serb land for centuries. In 1392 Turks invaded the Balkans. That year The Battle on Kosovo happened. South Slavs were outnumbered and the Turks occupied the most of the Balkans.

It lasted for more than 4 centuries. Some of the Asian tribes arrived and stayed. Most of them were concentrated in the area were Albania is now.

Some Slav inhabitants were not strong enough to take the Turk oppression and they converted to Islam. Those are ancestors of Bosnian Muslims.

Kosovo and Metohija in 20th century: Before World War I, 90% of population were Serbs. During that war, Serbia lost 30% of its population, so the new ratio became 75:25. After the
World War II and another 1.5 million of lost Serbian lives, the new ratio was 60:40.

After the war, Albania became a monstrous communist cage, worse than anything has been seen in eastern communist block. New state of the South Slavs, socialistic federal Yugoslavia, has been accepting Albanian refugees from Albania. Newcomers mainly populated Kosovo and Metohija and Western Macedonia.

This, combined with Albanian demographic explosion turned Kosovo and Western Macedonia into what you all have been ignorantly presented by CNN and BBC: to a small piece of land somewhere on Balkans, populated by innocent muslims fighting for their basic civil rights.

The truth is that Albanians from Kosovo enjoyed the same civil rights as all others, they just have not been allowed to proclaim their own state - which they started to ask for as soon as they outnumbered Slav population, in early 1960s.

>> 3 million people begin running for their very lives to the nearest border, and they cry to the world "Help!! HELP US!! We are being oppressed!! <<

There were around 2 million people on Kosovo in 1991. Around 1.7 million Albanians, 200,000 Serbs and 100,000 Turks, Macedonians, Croatians, Bosnians etc.

Oh, yes - they cried for help. For help to build the monstrous semi-state modern Europe has ever seen. Drugs, arms, slavery... all the worst kinds of crime tripled since 1999 and are happily exported to the European Union and ? say cheese ? USA and Canada.

>> Our wives and daughters are being raped, our people are being slaughtered!! Help USSSS!!!" <<

That?s right, that?s what they said. Cry babies.

I remember the marsh of Albanians through the streets of Munich back in 1998. I remember 15 years old kids yelling - ?We will kill them all! Long live great Albania?.

[Great Albania, by the way, is supposed to spread from South Serbia (including big Serbian city of Nis through Macedonia (including the capital city Skopje) to Aegean Sea (including 1.5 million people large glorious Greek city Thessalonika). They are deadly serious about this and you can see the maps in every primary school on Kosovo)]

And then what? ?Help us?? Well, don?t fuck with Serbs. Don?t fuck with a war hardened army with military tradition older than first word written in Albanian.

Last week, at the trial in Hague, some ?witness? is swearing that he saw Serb jets bombing a refugee convoy. Then his was informed that those were NATO planes and that it was mistake confirmed by NATO officials themselves. ?No, those were Serb planes, I?m 100% sure?.

The other ?witness? witnessed that Serbs slaughtered the whole family in some village. Then Milosevic?s lawyers founded the same dead family happily enjoying the hospitality of Sweden.

Show me the proofs, show me the links on the web, show me articles about mass murders.

As war started Albanians just flew away on their own. They had no serious loses.

>> and yes good people of the world, that's right.... the US-of-of-fucking-A, along with UN and CANADIAN forces go in and again kick ass for the good of humanity. <<

UN has never approved what NATO has done there. By the way, nice allies you?ve got, CANADIANS :)

Kick ass? In 78 days Serbs lost 1000 soldiers and 13 tanks. Guerilla forces where completely wiped out. Same for raging hordes from Albania that dared to step in. Real NATO looses yet have to be revealed.

Milosevic was a dictator and deserves to be in prison indeed (not in a foreign prison, though) but defending Kosovo makes him a hero. The reason that GLORIOUS Serbian Army left Kosovo were seriously growing damages inflicted on industrial and civil facilites by bombings within the rest of the country.

>> Thousands of Canadians and Americans pitch in food, blankets and raw goods to send over to those people <<

That?s nice. They?re sending you some good heroin in return ;) Macedonian Slavs helped them out a lot too. They?re paying them back by preparing new war (for freedom) in western Macedonia.

Hey, did you know, Serbs had a friends to help them out too. Ask my crazy :) and brave cousin ?Tex Viller?, he?s a freaking war veteran. On March 19, 1991, he left his cozy apartment in center of Berlin and came over to Serbia to fight for the homeland of his grandparents. He?ll confirm that Serb Army had volunteers from all over the world.

>> and we took in several thousand refugees as new citizens here as well. <<

Good! Keep up the good work! :)

copy, paste, done

pheuh if i'm crazy, he's boring :1orglaugh

Who gives the fuck about Serbs????

Hmmm where to start this...

We're now supposed to be an 'enlightened' civilization, right? (At least the West is) Granted the past has alot of baggage that will be brought forward. We should LEARN form the past but not let it interfere with the forward mpvement of todays society.

Take the Native Americans for example... they have basically successfully integrated (albeit forced) into todays civilization. And before the naysayers spring up, there ARE more Indians living off of the reservations than in or on them.

What I'm trying to say is, we can't be letting what even happened a 100 years ago affect us to such a degree that it interferes with the forward movement today. IE: if we allow the past to overcome us, then Germany, Japan (fill in the blank) are still the Wests enemies, right? Native Americans will be launching new raids for horses,.. errr cars in this day and age. Instead of leaving their moccassins to thumb their noses at the target of their theft, they'd today leave their horses as they drive off in your Lincoln SUV. lol

We at SOME point as this so called modern civilization have to let the past go when it comes to the betterment for all of us in THIS day and age.

Granted it will be hard and we face alot of challenges since there are alot of third world countries that haven't "kept up with the changing times". There still ARE Native Americans in Central America that are afraid of having their pictures taken etc. Do they bear arms to fight against todays society? Not for the most part. The middle east isn't so far behind that they *really* want to do away with us. (Look at the videos of them, wearing US rock group Tshirts, and a status symbol is a zippo lighter of all things. lol

Will we have to go to war to pull some of them into 200x? No doubt we will. Is that a GOOD thing? No, on one hand but for the good of the World it will be a necessary thing. OR we will face the wrath of their backwards religious leaders for another century and they will have their backwards converts to carry out their ill will towards things they cannot understand.

Look at Japan, only a couple hundred years back they refused Westerners access to their country. Preferring to trade with us through China etc. They got forward looking leaders and that all changed. They forged ahead and are one of the leading 'Modern Civilizations'.

Saddam? A different cookie there. He wants all that the West offers and at the same time harbors a Hitler like will to carry a heavy hand over as many people that he possibly can. He is the mental case that makes a 100 of these dinky wannabe warlords look like ONE local neighborhood bully. We have to (or someone does) rout out those reallllly bad ones, and the little pipsqueaks will either fall into line OR be taken out.

I am sure there are or will be future leaders in most all of those third world countries that will come to the forefront to lead their peoples into the future. Not in OUR lifetimes no doubt. But it will come. If civilization stops its forward movement, then the Human Race will be either doomed or thrown into a form of dark ages more befitting our stature as opposed to the 1200's or whatever year they started back then. Can we say Mad Max? :winkwink:

Hope some of that makes sense. It was running in the back of my mind while I slept and I don't have alot of time to put it in to words. :)

The fact is that Saddam cannot be reasoned with. Like Hitler he sees compromise as weakness. You tell him what he needs to do, and you tell him what you'll do unless he complies. And you have to be willing to go through with that, failure to do so only encourages him to go further.

Do we need to take immediate military action against Iraq? That depends on how great a threat he is in the short term, and convincing evidence has to be produced before that happens. But the fact is that we need, at the very least, to get weapons inspectors back into Iraq, with unrestricted access.

Iraq has been offered favorable terms for that in the past, and refused them. Now we need to give Saddam a simple message; live up to your agreements, or face the consequences. :2 cents:

rose, an immigrant from God-knows-where, now a citizen of Canada, certainly isn't supposed to give a fuck about anything

you?re supposed to care only about your periods, mortgages and behavior (so they don?t kick you out) , honey-pie :1orglaugh

"Tex".. It's a shame someone doesn't rein in YOUR behaviour instead of letting you run around like an *ss. Oh thats right, mum and dad are at work and you figured out the password to the family computer again didn't you. Little boy.

Holler down to the corner and tell mum to come make you some warm cereal for lunch and you'll feel all better after a nap. :ak47:

This debate is enjoyable to read. I love a good debate :-)

I think the question in this poll is "Will Dubbya attack Iraq on September 11th?" In my opinion he will not. He does not have the necessary support. Even if we were to dismiss as irrelevant the fact that our allies do not support such a move, he still lacks the necessary support.

Case in point: Dubbya's own father's three top foreign policy advisors are heading up a charge to try to defeat the current administration's policy! James Baker was George Bush the Elder's chief of staff and later his secretary of state and he has called for delays until the UN can do weapons inspections in Iraq. Brent Scowhahahahaha has long been considered to be the "other voice" of the elder Bush...he even co-wrote the elder Bush's memoirs. He has come out against the current administration by saying that we must wait until Iraq attacks us first before we attack them. Lawrence Eagleburger, one of the elder Bush's prime diplomats, has said we must not do any pre-emptive strike against Iraq until there is undeniable proof that Iraq is ready to strike us with nukes.

Not only does Dubbya lack support from these men, but his own secretary of state, Colin Powell, has shown much reserve about taking any military action against Iraq.

Many prominent Republicans, including Dick Armey, have come out against the notion of attacking Iraq.

In the ongoing polls, American support for attacking Iraq has been steadily eroding.

Given this political atmosphere, Dubbya knows that it would be political suicide for him to unilaterally go forward with such plans without first getting the blessings of the U.S. Congress and the American people.

So, no. The administration will not attack Iraq on September 11th or anytime in the near future. It would simply be a very stupid move politically...and let's face it, Dubbya is, after all is said and done, a politician :-)

I love this thread.....it's like an ID card for WAR HAWKS. All you have to do is read the thread and BLAMO right away you know who in here has a small cock...er sorry...i mean who wants to start a war.

Here is another piece of particulrarly stunning NEWS....I may be right. Read On.

Today (September 4th) Dubbya is at it again....

"Calling Saddam Hussein a "serious threat," President Bush said today he would "seek approval" from Congress about taking action against Iraq and vowed to make the case against the Iraqi leader on the international stage as well. "It's something that this country must deal with," Bush said, "and today the process starts about ... our future and how best to deal with it."
"

And notice that not once was I ever refuted by these WAR HAWKS. It's about OIL Stupid.

bwahahahahhahaha

did you think of that all by yourself or you just quoted another intelligent keyboard warrior?

can i have a spank too? lol

you?ve been polite enough tho
still thinking you?re a nice guy who?s just picking the wrong side
please prove i'm wrong ;-))


on a more serious note

if you disagree with me and got some counter-arguments to spill out, lemme see them
i'll reply in the same manner and perhaps will agree w/ you on the end of discussion

Sorry Tex... you got it all wrong from the start... I'm not a guy. :winkwink:

so saying, its plainly in my sig under the nick... if you aren't observent enough to see that, then why would I think you could be observent about any of your other observations? :Graucho

Can I weigh in with my observations?!?

it's like an ID card for WAR HAWKS.
---------------------------------------


It's also like an ID card for left wing bleeding heart idiots

Now I give up, you are too smart for me.
And what part of Earth has the pleasure of your residency smart ass?

i don't get it
your sig doesn't work
or i don?t understand the metaphor

something pink is coming soon? :)

go for it :Graucho

giving up so soon?

now, you anon something,
i'm a citizen of Germany, half a German, half a Serb
said that several times on this board already

and although it?d took quite of the server space, i can post here my bio for you
so you can browse it looking for the separate parts you could reply on
using smart one-line smart-ass wisdom sentences

now, when you know my nationality and my place of residence
lemme hear you calling me names
like ?German nazi? or ?Serbian ethnic-cleaner?
but before that introduce yourself
if you dare

Well....it just seems like every time specific facts are asked for, these WARHAWKS just can't spit out ANY truth from their propoganda-soaked minds.

There was a huge flame war with people proclaiming "victory" for their side of this argument for a long while. However, I am still left wondering why none of the WAR HAWKS concede that a war in IRAQ means trading AMERICAN BODIES for OIL.

It's a FACT they are unwilling to concede - and by doing this they are undermining their own baseless PRO-WAR nonsense.

Why would I call you German Nazi. My father is german.
But can you help me? Who was slaughtering Serbs 60 years ago?
Americans and Canadians? Or Germans?

i do, like I do for every country. Serbians are great people and they have suffered a lot for decades. They had the support of my family and of many other familes by sending clothes and food during the war and they will have my support in the future.

MrPopup
You are confused again. Personally I dont give a fuck if they bomb Iraq or not. I can not care less.

I am glad you do:)
But there is a majority that dont.

you?re completely missing the point

so as your father is German, (?G?, not ?g?) you won?t call me German nazi
so if your father wasn?t German, you could call me that way?

ok, so you?re half a German
we could be relatives
i hope we aren?t

what about other half?
let us know
if you dare

you said ?who gives the fuck about Serbs?
i ask you why the fuck you?re jumping into discussion with a dull and hatred line like that



and regarding your last question
that?s a pathetic attempt to put me on a thin ace
you?re trying to get Americans on your side here
but you screwed it up
i have nothing against America
although Kosovo 1999 will be eternal shame in the bio of the States
if there?s should be only one superpower, USA is the best deal this world can get

i don?t care about nationalities, races and religions
but you have pulled my leg

sorry, no young east european here
with poor grammar and spelling
no easy target for small dicks hungry for attention

thank you, bro
we feel the same about your great people

What hatred you are talking about? I dont hate serbs I just dont care. About the other half, it's czech. I came here when I was 2 years old . And what are you anyway? Serb or German? And I am not talking about citizenship. I am Canadian. And I also have US passport, but dont consider myself american. You know what is great about North America. You can come over from any country of the world and you will become Canadian or American. But you can not say the same about Germany. Yes you can get the citizenship but you will never become german.

yes, we are hated by all kinds of coward and liers
and by small dicks wishing they were part of something big

when i left Berlin to fight in war
my German friends and relatives thought that i must be mad
but they have given me a full support
and have a great respect for what i did
cause they?re natural born fighters too

same with my employer
he overpaid me in advance
and said that my office is waiting for me whenever i come back

Serbs and Germans fought in both world was
and those were bloody battles

but there?s something that connects them
you can call them anything you like
but you can not ever call them cowards

there?s something that?s called pride and braveness
and that?s what?s the most important

AGain for my slow friend. I dont hate serbs ok. I just DONT CARE!

oh, wise one, teach me what?s great about North America
i've seen a half of the world, i know exactly what?s great about Canada

i agree that?s the place to be
good life and small expenses for defense thanks to big southern neighbor
and i don?t want to be sarcastic here, i really think it?s a smart deal

i didn?t come to Germany to get a citizenship
i was born in Berlin
i am both Serbian and German
know all my ancestors 10 generations back
but if i ever decide it?s too complicated i'll move to Canada
and will call myself Canadian bwahahahahhahahaaa

good, keep it that way and let's close this discussion

i've got a gallery to build =)

Fuck serbs and their dirty serbian asses

You know you live in most racist country in the world. I visit Germany very often as I have relatives there. And you know what
Germans like people from Yugoslavia just as they like turks.

those feel the same about Czechs too
they just won't tell you ;)


yea, many like to call themselves Yugoslavians when it comes to certain occasions

like they caught recently a muslim terrorist on a Swedish plane
papers say "connected with Yugoslav mafia"
while it's actually albanian mafia



drew - whosever alter nick it is,
suck my dick, you little piece of shit

hey, i made a rhyme :thumbsup

those feel the same about Czechs too
they just won't tell you ;)


---------------------------------

Yes I know my friend, that was my point.

Just be nice you serbian bitch or we will send few B52's and bomb your little third world shithole country back to stone age.

Let me ask you people something....

Why does Germany continually maintain this "MOST RACIST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD" moniker?

I've never been there, and the glossed over mainstream news usually paints it as a simple matter of teenage skinhead angst.

So are there Germans here that can tell me why this country is consistently labelled the way it is?

And shit.... I guess solving the Serbs / Croats conflict is about as easy to solve as the Middle East.

Seems like we've got a few knowledgable people in here (along with some real dickwads)...

huggs, lub ya and peace :) i mean it




drew, you little shitty worthless skunk
i wave my dick at your aunties
die, little faggot, die :1orglaugh

I've never been there, and the glossed over mainstream news usually paints it as a simple matter of teenage skinhead angst.

---------------------------

Maybe you should go there. Dont get me wrong, they are very nice people if you are a tourist. Just dont be imigrant from some african country.

Great. I guess tolerance for racism is a wonderful trait in Germany.

I think that's one country I'll skip thank you very much.

Dont you have some Cluster Bombs to pick? I can see that Depleted Uranium from our bombs had effect on your brain.

I thought this was pretty accurate thread about AMERICA. Even its former presidents distrust the Dubbya Administration. And just think, some of you still want to attack Iraq. How pathetic.


[B] The Troubling New Face of America[\B]

By Jimmy Carter
Thursday, September 5, 2002; Page A31

Fundamental changes are taking place in the historical policies of the United States with regard to human rights, our role in the community of nations and the Middle East peace process -- largely without definitive debates (except, at times, within the administration). Some new approaches have understandably evolved from quick and well-advised reactions by President Bush to the tragedy of Sept. 11, but others seem to be developing from a core group of conservatives who are trying to realize long-pent-up ambitions under the cover of the proclaimed war against terrorism.

Formerly admired almost universally as the preeminent champion of human rights, our country has become the foremost target of respected international organizations concerned about these basic principles of democratic life. We have ignored or condoned abuses in nations that support our anti-terrorism effort, while detaining American citizens as "enemy combatants," incarcerating them secretly and indefinitely without their being charged with any crime or having the right to legal counsel. This policy has been condemned by the federal courts, but the Justice Department seems adamant, and the issue is still in doubt. Several hundred captured Taliban soldiers remain imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay under the same circumstances, with the defense secretary declaring that they would not be released even if they were someday tried and found to be innocent. These actions are similar to those of abusive regimes that historically have been condemned by American presidents.

While the president has reserved judgment, the American people are inundated almost daily with claims from the vice president and other top officials that we face a devastating threat from Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, and with pledges to remove Saddam Hussein from office, with or without support from any allies. As has been emphasized vigorously by foreign allies and by responsible leaders of former administrations and incumbent officeholders, there is no current danger to the United States from Baghdad. In the face of intense monitoring and overwhelming American military superiority, any belligerent move by Hussein against a neighbor, even the smallest nuclear test (necessary before weapons construction), a tangible threat to use a weapon of mass destruction, or sharing this technology with terrorist organizations would be suicidal. But it is quite possible that such weapons would be used against Israel or our forces in response to an American attack.

We cannot ignore the development of chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, but a unilateral war with Iraq is not the answer. There is an urgent need for U.N. action to force unrestricted inspections in Iraq. But perhaps deliberately so, this has become less likely as we alienate our necessary allies. Apparently disagreeing with the president and secretary of state, in fact, the vice president has now discounted this goal as a desirable option.

We have thrown down counterproductive gauntlets to the rest of the world, disavowing U.S. commitments to laboriously negotiated international accords.

Peremptory rejections of nuclear arms agreements, the biological weapons convention, environmental protection, anti-torture proposals, and punishment of war criminals have sometimes been combined with economic threats against those who might disagree with us. These unilateral acts and assertions increasingly isolate the United States from the very nations needed to join in combating terrorism.

Tragically, our government is abandoning any sponsorship of substantive negotiations between Palestinians and Israelis. Our apparent policy is to support almost every Israeli action in the occupied territories and to condemn and isolate the Palestinians as blanket targets of our war on terrorism, while Israeli settlements expand and Palestinian enclaves shrink.

There still seems to be a struggle within the administration over defining a comprehensible Middle East policy. The president's clear commitments to honor key U.N. resolutions and to support the establishment of a Palestinian state have been substantially negated by statements of the defense secretary that in his lifetime "there will be some sort of an entity that will be established" and his reference to the "so-called occupation." This indicates a radical departure from policies of every administration since 1967, always based on the withdrawal of Israel from occupied territories and a genuine peace between Israelis and their neighbors.

Belligerent and divisive voices now seem to be dominant in Washington, but they do not yet reflect final decisions of the president, Congress or the courts. It is crucial that the historical and well-founded American commitments prevail: to peace, justice, human rights, the environment and international cooperation.

Former president Carter is chairman of the Carter Center in Atlanta

You certainly talk about dicks alot. You obviously love the cock.


Your above comment and many of your other comments are both condescending and assinine, and smack more of a junior high schoolyard than an adult forum. Tell me why I should debate someone who lacks the class to speak even semi-maturely?


Serbs showed themselves to be invaders. You yourself mention what a criminal Milosevich was, yet the Serbs CHOSE to follow that criminal, that mental case. You caused major upset in the world, and for that the Serbs paid the price, and if there is more price to pay I hope they are made to pay that too. There is never an excuse for raping, killing children, slaughtering people and driving them to run for their lives like the Serbs did in Kosovo. It took me all of about one month back in the early 90's to decide that Milosevich was a fucking asshole, yet the Serbs followed him like sheep. Well, you reap what you sow sheep boy.