tony286

I agree please show us.

aico

[TRANSLATION] I don't have any proof [/TRANSLATION]

hollinator

I never said 'everything out of his mouth was a lie'

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hollinator

Alright - since you won't do your own research - here's a website for you...

http://www.moorewatch.com/

Do a little reading...

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dig420

nah we should all shut the hell up and take what they give us like REAL patriots, like you and sticky.

tony286

Your kidding right? You have to be.

aico

Opinions aren't facts

Didn't Michael Moore pay for that guys wife's health bill and save his website? what an asshole.

Peaches

Why should they? If the insurance companies are doing such a horrible job, they're putting all the extras into the executive's pockets anyway. They aren't paying for stuff you think should be paid for - wouldn't you be happier if you made sure your money was put to good use?

I've seen a LOT of companies try to self insure. I've seen it work once. Running an insurance company ain't as easy as everyone seems to think.

hollinator

That's not at all what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that everyone should try and see both sides and not just be so willing to jump on the bandwagon... What Michael Moore and LOTS of other people say should always be taken with a grain of salt. The minute you start believing everything you see and hear without researching both sides, well, enough said...

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tony286

Actually your mistaken alot of companies are self insured and they hire big insurance companies to manage it for them. My dad worked for one of the biggest health insurance companies in the country and that was part of what he did.

aico

coming from the guy who hasn't even seen the movie.

tony286

your not presenting facts,your basing your argument on a guy who could afford a 12 grand bill.

Peaches

Oh, and that one company that had self insurance that worked - they still had employees bitching because if the company didn't do what they wanted, they couldn't complain to the insurance commissioner. But at least they didn't go broke like the other companies that tried to self insure.

I brought it up before but can't find the thread: When MM was interviewed on Leno, he said he thought all private companies should be shut down and the government should be the only medical provider. I SO disagree with that it's not funny. What's even sadder is that the two things he brought up as "good" things the government does were fire departments and social security. As someone posted previously most fire departments are volunteer (mine is - our HOA pays for everything) and if he thinks social security is a prime example of the government running something well, then he has some SERIOUS lack of info.

dig420

Moorewatch and pretty much every site like it has been refuted point by point. You don't care. You wouldn't read it if I picked up the monitor it was on and bashed you over the head with it. You don't want to know your heroes are villians, you don't want MM or anyone else telling you that. You'd cut off your own nose to spite your face, like just about every conservative.

The critics of Moore's work have to twist themselves until they bleed from the anus to try to make a case that Moore lies, and they can't do it, because he doesn't. The fact that he's not lying, people ARE fucking you over, means fuckall to you. I swear I don't understand you people or how you think. Meanwhile your penisfaced heroboys like Limbaugh lie about 200x every show. You don't care about that. I'm pretty sure all conservatives are either brain damaged or have some deep personal issues, or are just easily led astray...

In addition to about a thousand other sites refuting the people who make a living out of trying to say Moore 'lies' here are three good ones right from the source. I'd say check it out, but I'm pretty goddam sure you won't lol

http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/checkup/

Peaches

I'm not "mistaken" when I state exactly what I know as something I know, lol.

So your Dad is saying the government could run it better than he did?

dig420

He says there should be no profit motive in health care. Sounds about right to me.

Doesn't that irrational hatred just eat you people up inside like poison?

tony286

Well said its very sad.

aico

Most fire departments are voluntary??? where the fuck do you live? Where I live everyone and their brothers try to become firefighters because the pay is so good and the hours are nice.

Did the "volunteers" build the firehouse? Did they all get together and build the trucks too? Who brings them the water to put out the fires?

Yes, all fire departments have a volunteer program, and it usually consists of people trying to become paid firefighters.

tony286

Whatever.Actually he said the system has to change it doesnt work and he is a card carrying member of the RNC.

TampaToker

I do my research daily my wife does this for a living and the company she works for has over 335k of patients in there Florida network . I know were both sides gets there facts and its the same place so to sit here and say Moore is fudging the facts is not correct.

But note the $7200 a year Moore has been saying is a grey line. That number is estimated for 2007 it could be more or less by the fiscal years end. Beside that he has been dead on. Is he doing this for the money sure he is we all know that and he banking too. So later tonight i will come back and show you were both sides getting there info and you tell me what you think...

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Peaches

Actually what he said was he thought we should get rid of private insurance and just let the government run it. I heard him. I even repeated it on my TiVo because I couldn't believe he said it. Especially when his examples of things the government does right are fire departments and social security.

I've said for years that socialized medicine is fine with me as long as I can opt out of it. I don't want it. Period. I want to pay for my own insurance. If I still have to pay for the uninsured then make my premiums 100% tax deductible.

If wanting to be responsible for my own health instead of letting a federal government that's screwed up just about everything it's touched is irrational hatred, then I wear the badge with pride

dig420

The govt runs large enterprises significantly better than private enterprise. Political Science 101, not a secret. Educate yourself. Ever heard of the post office?

Jace

Peaches

Someone else posted the stats that something like 60%+ of the fire departments in the US were volunteer - I'll have to Google.

In my subdivision we built the firehouse, we bought the trucks and pay for their gas and maintenance, the firemen are volunteers and the water is from our own privately run water system.

Peaches

Funny you brought that up. The PO just sent me a survey to complete and I pointed out how if I wanted to make sure a package or letter got somewhere, I sent it via FedEx.

dig420

Just because you're ignorant enough to 'want to be responsible for your own health' doesn't mean the rest of us should be saddled with a broken, medieval health care system designed to make money instead of heal people. That's the problem with conservatives, there are so many of you that your idiotic votes enact policy that affects the rest of us. There are so many of you that it's just enough that your criminal politicians can steal national elections.

You're paying for the uninsured right now. I'm paying to kill innocent middle easterners. It's a democracy. Get over yourself or go buy a cabin in the woods.

tony286

Your very right,old people get their checks every month.Medicare/medcaid works fine in fact they have a higher satisfaction rate than private insurance. Our army is the greatest in the world, the government screws everything up is the right wing talking point they all cling too.

Peaches

Volunteer fire department info:

* Estimated number of firefighters in 2005: 1,136,650 (career: 313,300, volunteer: 823,350)

Source: National Fire Protection Association, U.S. Fire Department Profile Through 2005

dig420

Yes, I see that you do indeed wear your ignorance badge with pride. Good for you.

dig420

What does this have to do with anything? There are a lot volunteer cop wanna-bes out there too. Should we have a private police force?

Peaches

Actually I DID buy a cabin in the woods

Walter Reed - yeah, that was a great place. Run by the government and the military.

Grady Hospital in Atlanta is in jeopardy of closing down because it's a government run hospital. One of their solutions to stay in business? Get more patients who have private insurance.

Just two examples off the top of my head.

And if Medicare and Medicaid are so great, why are more and more doctors refusing Medicare/caid patients? Sure the "customers" are happy - they get free care. The welfare mother is happy with her food stamps too.

Sorry if I don't just watch one news show or watch one movie to get my info from.

Peaches

I was merely answering this question:

Many upscale subdivisions DO have their own police forces, BTW.

dig420

Yes, Walter Reed.. isn't it nice how your chickenhawk deserter politicians fuck over vets? You point hospitals as examples of government fuck ups? Aren't you just bolstering MM's points when you bring up how fucked up healthe care is?

Out of the 25 leading western nations, we're the only ones that do health care right? I'm sorry too, I'm sorry that you get your 'news' from National Review Online'. Since when are doctors refusing medicare patients? That's a guaranteed and reliable payment for them, most doctors love medicare patients. Food stamps? You want to see people starving on street corners? Many, MANY people get into situations where they need a little help, at one time including myself. Food stamps etc kept our family alive and together until we could get back on our feet, god bless food stamps. Of course, brilliant people such as yourself, and I can tell your brilliant by your business success, would never need food stamps. I'm sure you think only fat black women with ten criminal kids use food stamps, because that's what you've TOLD to think.

Peaches

Granted, I'm older than a lot of you so perhaps my real life experiences are different. But so far I've yet to see an example of where the private sector didn't kick the ass of any government run business.

And again, I don't care if my insurance company makes money off me or not - I want the choice to have private health insurance and from MM's mouth, he doesn't. I disagree with him. Period.

dig420

He's not lying. Most volunteer firefighters are trying to build points and their resume so that they can be hired full time. Not all, but I would say the majority.

I can afford to pay for a private police in my subdivision in Spanish Trails. Can you? If you can't pay for it, you don't deserve it. Out of the two of us, clearly only I deserve police protection. Right?

dig420

I doubt you're that much older than me, and just because you don't know it or understand it doesn't make it any less true that govt runs large enterprises better than private industry, especially enterprises without a large profit margin. Not a secret, as well known as night follows day but not intuitive, therefore you have to educate yourself just slightly in a real school to know it. It's unfortunate that there are so many politicians willing to lie to you and to mislead, because THEY definitely know it, but it's your fault for voting according to dumbass hot button issues like gay marriage.

Peaches

LOL! Dude, relax

I never said anything bad about people on food stamps. I said they are getting something for free so they certainly aren't going to be COMPLAINING about it. Just like Medicare/caid patients aren't going to complain - they walk in, they get taken care of. What's to complain about?

Why are doctors no longer taking them? Slow payments is the #1 reason. My personal doctor hasn't taken Medicare/caid patients in years. He was LOSING money taking them. Just like a lot of landlords won't rent to Section 8 tenants - free money? Yeah - with a lot of strings attached and it can take months for that first check to come in.

ONCE AGAIN, I don't care if the rest of you want to go to the government doctors and hospitals, but I think it's absurd to cheer on someone who wants to take away the ability to get private coverage.

dig420

I want the choice to not have my tax money spent to kill people who never did anything to me. You want the choice not to fund a system that will provide superior medical care for everyone. I don't think either one of us are going to get our way. It's called a democracy.

dig420

I think it's absurd to have all the facts in front of you to make an informed decision and continue to make ignorant ones. I think it's absurd to keep calling MM a liar when he's demonstrably not. I think it's absurd to vote for a President who treats veterans like shit, and who disrespects war heroes when he went AWOL like the coward he is. I think a lot of things are absurd.

Peaches

I never said he was a liar, I said I disagreed with him. Surely you think we should have the right to choose? Why champion someone who wants to take a choice away from us?

dig420

For the same reason I would champion Lincoln when he reined in the south, for the same reason I would have championed the politicians who made the Fire Dept. a govt responsibility when fire brigades would show up at your house and make you pay the bill before they would put your fire out. For the same reason I champion politicians who want more money for underfunded police forces and to fix the potholes in the public thoroughfares.

Because it benefits all of society, and it makes sense, and it's the best way to do things.

Why do YOU champion a President who wants to spy on you without a warrant, who wants to take away your right to a trial, who wants to torture people like we're a fucking third world banana republic, and who encourages neighbor to spy on neighbor?

georgeyw

eh?

You think that private health care would disappear if the government offered free health care?

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Peaches

Geeze, seriously, I know I type a lot but does anyone take the time to read what I write?

I said MM said in an interview with Leno that he (MM) thought private insurance should be gone and the government take over healthcare completely. I said I disagreed with MM on this.

I hope that's easier to understand

directfiesta

typical ....

I have proof that George Bush fucks Condi in the ass while Michael Moore takes her pussy .....

But, I will not post it here, but trust me, there is plenty of proof out there ...

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aico

Hmmm, strange, to me that reads firefighters, not department. Like I said many volunteer, that's what they do to get hired. It's not easy to get hired, but those who want to, need to volunteer.

Peaches

Erm, I haven't championed any president....

I could be wrong (as I often am) but doesn't every other country with socialized medicine - you know, the countries everyone else is saying are so great - offer a private insurance option? I know Canada does because when I worked for a Canadian company, all of our employees who could afford it bought it.

dig420

I'm no healthcare expert, but I believe that you can also get private coverage in most countries that have state health care if you can afford it. I would do it. I would have two or three seperate policies right now, one thru the biz and one private one except that under this system both companies would try to deny you treatment on the basis that they are not your primary provider.

When it comes to your health you cover your ass the best you can afford.

directfiesta

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TampaToker

Did you know that seniors at a certain age can get medicare/hmo? They take the fees right out of the social security check. This year the cap on prescription drugs is $2400 for the year. After they hit the donut hole they have to spend another $3600 out of pocket before the insurance will kick in again. I cant say which company im referring to but 18% of its seniors that have the medicare/hmo plan have all ready hit there donut hole and its only July.

There is a alert that went out last month to grocery stores here in my county instructing them to report large purchases of cat food and dog food by seniors becuase they know whats coming...

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dig420

yep, medicare is being defunded and has been ever since Bush hit office, and it's serving the segment of society that gets sick most often and has the highest per capita health care costs - seniors. It's a tough situation for the old people.