Originally Posted by Porn Farmer (Post 12640204)

Yeah, its amazing the countries that can provide health care to all their citizens, even many in the second world.

Perhaps what is more amazing is some of the ones that can't.

Originally Posted by Loryn-Adult.com (Post 12636423)

THANK YOU!!!!!!! Someone who gets it! :thumbsup

Why the fuck would anyone want the government to control anything else in your life?

LESS GOVERNMENT! And please NO ONE in America gets turned away for medical help. For God sakes illegal aliens get medical help all the time, and they know not to call a taxi, call an ambulance because it will get paid for. There are so many government assistant programs out there it is not even funny. People just don't use them because the "headline readers" say there is nothing out there for anyone and people just sit on their ass and believe that instead of going out and finding what they can do to help better their lives.

When I got into an accident when I was in my early 20's, getting away from the family and wanting to be on my own, I had no insurance and I got great medical care, plus I got assistance with the bills. I have had many friends that I have helped over the years in the same situation and got the same results.

I think once the government starts controlling that part of our lives, you will see the decrease of competition in the medical fields. Competition is great and it makes people work harder to find better cures for illnesses.

I can?t stand when people say out of one side of their mouth, I hate the government it is so corrupted, but out the other side of their mouth its the government should support me and pay for everything. Make up your mind, you either like the government or you don't.

The people are not stupid we can take care of ourselves and our families. And the people who are in this country who can't take care of themselves, there are several programs already out there for them. Nothing is perfect and NOTHING EVER WILL BE. But if you let the government have any more control over you, you will fuck yourself more than you could ever image. Once they get you to depend on them for things that you can take care of yourself, it?s hard to get away from it. Look what happen with welfare. It was designed to help, but instead people took advantage of it and ended up depending on it for life and not their own ability to succeed. It keeps people down, it doesn?t help motivate them to succeed and be their best. Yes, I know there are people who do use welfare the way it should be used, to help get through a tough time and get back on their feet.

And of course what he said about Social Security. At the time it was needed, but now it is not. People depend on that money instead of planning their own retirements. See the crutch the government wants you to have so they have the power. LESS GOVERNMENT BETTER COUNTRY!!! Opportunity is everywhere in this country, ask anyone of the people who stuffed themselves in crates and boxes to get here. It?s because they want the freedom to make the choices they want in their lives and use their talents and brains to support them and become successful. They don?t come here to have another government control them.

I think it was France that had that huge heat wave and thousands of people died. There was no gathering of people to help each other during that heat wave, because everyone just thought their government would take care of them. That didn?t work out to well, did it?

America is America because of how Americans are, HELPFUL and GIVING! And if you can?t see that then you are blinded by your own ?headline reading? hateful agenda.

Originally Posted by TheSenator (Post 12640407)

My head is spinning. I have an idea.

Why not privatize fire departments? Better yet, why not privatize the police department?

Originally Posted by ADL Colin (Post 12640388)

Hardly an argument. We here in the US call that humor. look it up ;-)

Originally Posted by ADL Colin (Post 12640418)

She said "less government", not "no government".

Originally Posted by ADL Colin

I am not a big fan of the government "protecting the people". I am in favor of people protecting themselves.

Originally Posted by TheSenator (Post 12640407)

My head is spinning. I have an idea.

Why not privatize fire departments? Better yet, why not privatize the police department?

Originally Posted by Porn Farmer (Post 12640442)

But you're against the government protecting citizens?

Originally Posted by Loryn-Adult.com (Post 12636423)

THANK YOU!!!!!!! Someone who gets it! :thumbsup

Why the fuck would anyone want the government to control anything else in your life?

LESS GOVERNMENT! And please NO ONE in America gets turned away for medical help. For God sakes illegal aliens get medical help all the time, and they know not to call a taxi, call an ambulance because it will get paid for. There are so many government assistant programs out there it is not even funny. People just don't use them because the "headline readers" say there is nothing out there for anyone and people just sit on their ass and believe that instead of going out and finding what they can do to help better their lives.

When I got into an accident when I was in my early 20's, getting away from the family and wanting to be on my own, I had no insurance and I got great medical care, plus I got assistance with the bills. I have had many friends that I have helped over the years in the same situation and got the same results.

I think once the government starts controlling that part of our lives, you will see the decrease of competition in the medical fields. Competition is great and it makes people work harder to find better cures for illnesses.

I can?t stand when people say out of one side of their mouth, I hate the government it is so corrupted, but out the other side of their mouth its the government should support me and pay for everything. Make up your mind, you either like the government or you don't.

The people are not stupid we can take care of ourselves and our families. And the people who are in this country who can't take care of themselves, there are several programs already out there for them. Nothing is perfect and NOTHING EVER WILL BE. But if you let the government have any more control over you, you will fuck yourself more than you could ever image. Once they get you to depend on them for things that you can take care of yourself, it?s hard to get away from it. Look what happen with welfare. It was designed to help, but instead people took advantage of it and ended up depending on it for life and not their own ability to succeed. It keeps people down, it doesn?t help motivate them to succeed and be their best. Yes, I know there are people who do use welfare the way it should be used, to help get through a tough time and get back on their feet.

And of course what he said about Social Security. At the time it was needed, but now it is not. People depend on that money instead of planning their own retirements. See the crutch the government wants you to have so they have the power. LESS GOVERNMENT BETTER COUNTRY!!! Opportunity is everywhere in this country, ask anyone of the people who stuffed themselves in crates and boxes to get here. It?s because they want the freedom to make the choices they want in their lives and use their talents and brains to support them and become successful. They don?t come here to have another government control them.

I think it was France that had that huge heat wave and thousands of people died. There was no gathering of people to help each other during that heat wave, because everyone just thought their government would take care of them. That didn?t work out to well, did it?

America is America because of how Americans are, HELPFUL and GIVING! And if you can?t see that then you are blinded by your own ?headline reading? hateful agenda.

Originally Posted by ADL Colin (Post 12640492)

I am absolutely not against the government protecting its citizens. I said no such thing. I said I am not a "big fan". Meaning I would shrink nearly every government expense out there. I am completely in favor of a strong military. I think we could cut back there though. I am in favor of limited welfare. I think we could cut back there. I am in favor of helping our eldest citizens. I think we could cut back on it though. There are no contradictions there. I can be in favor of a strong military but yet think we spend too much on it.

So lower taxes, cut back IRS expenses, raise the retirement age and get rid of 3-6 aircraft carriers. I'd be down with that.

Where there is a reasonable opportunity for privatization of any government service I would be in favor of doing such things in test markets. Baby steps. Again, I am not in favor of no government. Nor do I think government is horrible at everything it does. UPS and Fed Ex are great services that compete against the postal service. The postal service does a great job too, No complaints there.

Police and fire? I don't know how to do that from here. Education? I don't know how that can be done either. Some things we are probably stuck with.

Originally Posted by Peaches (Post 12638489)

If there's a family where only the Dad works and the Dad is out of a job, then why can't the wife work then?

I am betting that his COBRA would have cost less than what they are going to pay out for his cancer treatment.

Originally Posted by tony404 (Post 12640570)

I love you but watch more than Fox, it really shows. On this subject you really dont know what your talking about also I assume you dont pay for medical insurance.

Originally Posted by tony404 (Post 12640587)

Privatization is not always a good thing look at the iraq war, privatization has cost us taxpayers a bundle.

Originally Posted by ADL Colin (Post 12640644)

I don't disagree with you, Tony. Government spending my money on "outsourcing" is just as bad as them spending my money on programs they run directly. What i want is smaller government expenditures. While governments overall are quite inefficient that is only part of the story for me.

You think you have a RIGHT to healthcare? Well, fine.

I think i should have a RIGHT run my business for a profit without 50 cents of every dollar I spend (federal taxes, state taxes, city taxes, property taxes, sales tax) being "redistributed". It's straight-up robbery! How far we've come since feudalism. Now instead of the local lord forcefully taking half of everything I earn a buncha dudes in Washington DC VOTE to forecfully take half of everything I own. :1orglaugh

Originally Posted by tony404 (Post 12640652)

To prosper in this great country and then bitch about taxes is wrong to me.

Originally Posted by OldJeff (Post 12640135)

A lot of people have posted in favor of universal health care using the point that they want doctors, not insurance companies making decisions.

It might work in some other countries, but the last thing I want is some far right slanted government (like we had for the first 6 years of W's admin) deciding that since the church says abortion is bad, and we should only teach abstinance that abortion and birth control are no longer covered by our health care system.

Even better, I do not want the "approved" and paid for proceedures and medications to be determined by which company sent the most money to the current administration's campaign.

I have dealt with the US Health care system on pretty much all level, as a welfare recipient as a child, as a soldier, as a HMO member, as a person without coverage, and as a person with a GOOD health care package.

I have never been denied treatment anywhere.

Yes most insurance companies suck to deal with, but dealing with the government ALWAYS sucks more.

Originally Posted by pocketkangaroo (Post 12639572)

COBRA is only 18 months. On top of that, there isn't a health insurance company in the world who will accept someone who has cancer.

Originally Posted by MikeVega (Post 12638549)

I'm amazed by this response because i know your not some young girl that doesn't know the ways of the world.

lets say his Mom hasn't worked in 5-10-15 years and has been raising kids and taking care of the house. she is in her 50's now. you think she can just run out and get a job that will not only pay all there bills but also allow her to take care of her sick husband. hell it took him 30-40 years to get to where they are in life, I'm sure she can run out with little to no work experience or skills and pick up right where he left off.

And yes the Cobra would be cheaper but if you are a middle class person living basically paycheck to paycheck like most middle class your not going to be able to afford the Cobra either. many families lose everything they've worked for because of that exact situation his parents are in.

Tony ... I wish your dad the best .. in most countries a man works all his life and comes down with an illness like that and his government and countrymen would make sure he doesn't lose what he's worked for and can get the treatment he needs without debt and worry.

Originally Posted by Peaches (Post 12640786)

So you're saying the government should take care of them instead of

1. Having the wife get a job
2. Having good health insurance in the first place
3. Saving throughout your life so you have money to pay for your own medical care
4. Getting private donations

Originally Posted by Incredible_Wil (Post 12641144)

A
So you're saying that by not saving for the $500,000+ operations, it's their fault for being irresponsible? Or are you saying that we should just let people die?

Originally Posted by ADL Colin (Post 12641291)

It's one thing to say you think something is a problem. It's quite another to say that it is the responsibility of a government to fix it. There are a lot of problems in the world. What does that have to do with government?

Cigarettes are a problem. They kill people. We are just 'letting people die" from them. Is it the government's responsibility to ban them?

Originally Posted by ADL Colin (Post 12641226)

100 commies!

Originally Posted by Incredible_Wil (Post 12641144)

Again.. obviously you are someone who has NEVER had something significant happen to someone in your family. Our medical prices are so inflated that no middle-class family could afford to pay for them.

So you're saying that by not saving for the $500,000+ operations, it's their fault for being irresponsible? Or are you saying that we should just let people die?

In a perfect world, sure.. we should be able to pay for our own healthcare. But because of the current system, hospitals have to charge 200%+ for procedures, in the hopes that HMO's will pay half of what they ask for. This drives prices up so far that it's impossible to pay the bills (for an average family).

And, I know you're going to say "it's your fault for not having insurance." So what about those people that can't get decent insurance due to "pre-existing" conditions?

Again, please watch the movie. It might not change your mind, but I'd at least like to hear your thoughts afterwards. I've always hated Michael Moore, but this topic was hot before he brought it into the spotlight. Most Americans have been too complacent to do anything about it, hopefully this will light a torch under our asses.

Originally Posted by Peaches (Post 12641403)

Actually, yes I have. I paid over $25K of my own money in 2000 because I was under insured. Was I pissed? Yes. At myself.

I paid probably $5K a year for prescriptions for the first two years I had insurance because migraines were an excluded pre-existing condition for 2 years. I sucked it up, paid the $$$, realized I had screwed up by not having continuous coverage and now my migraines are covered.

Did I want the government to come in, take over and fix the problems I had created for myself? No. I tend to want LESS government involvement in my life, not more.


But that's me.

Originally Posted by Peaches (Post 12640745)

Exactly. It amazes me that of all people, we are hearing that people in THIS INDUSTRY want more government involvement in their lives!! :helpme

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz (Post 12641505)

I laugh at how people in our industry talk out both sides of their mouths. Agree totally.

Originally Posted by Peaches (Post 12641403)

Actually, yes I have. I paid over $25K of my own money in 2000 because I was under insured. Was I pissed? Yes. At myself.

I paid probably $5K a year for prescriptions for the first two years I had insurance because migraines were an excluded pre-existing condition for 2 years. I sucked it up, paid the $$$, realized I had screwed up by not having continuous coverage and now my migraines are covered.

Did I want the government to come in, take over and fix the problems I had created for myself? No. I tend to want LESS government involvement in my life, not more.


But that's me.

Originally Posted by Incredible_Wil (Post 12641607)

No matter what, we're paying taxes aren't we?

I'm sure that you guys rather buy your own firetruck and protect your house when it's in need, but your taxes help pay for the service if you can't afford the expenses. If you refuse the help, that's your choice.

What's your solution? If something horrible happens to our family members, and insurance flakes out on us, we should beg for money on GFY? I guess that's what Peaches meant here:



If it's all about YOU, then yeah you're probably fine. But think about your parents, or some relatives who will be forced to work their entire lives so that they can pay for the extremely overpriced prescriptions.

Originally Posted by MikeVega (Post 12641334)

No the government shouldn't ban them but if you've seen the movie Sicko you would know that in the UK the doctors make more money based on the health improvements of their patients . a doctor will make more if he helps you stop smoking.

and the doctors are paid very well not like you would be led to believe ..

Originally Posted by TheSenator (Post 12641643)

Here ya go
Listen to the tapes Nixon preserved. CLICKY peaches

Originally Posted by Incredible_Wil (Post 12641909)

I really don't want to argue with you guys, it's obvious that you feel our system is great. :) I'll continue fighting for the people who don't have the luxuries that you do, and blame myself for having an Autistic son (which most procedures are considered "experimental," so we end up having to pay for a lot out of our pockets.)

Originally Posted by ADL Colin (Post 12641920)

My 11 year old sister is autistic. Not everyone with the same family situation comes to the same conclusions about the nature and role of government.

Originally Posted by ADL Colin (Post 12641687)

If Michael Moore makes a movie about the evils of cigarettes that doesn't mean I will be convinced by watching it that it is the government's responsibility to ban them. Now that would be a great flick, right? You could follow around people whose loved ones are dying of emphysema and cancer. You could show some mind-blowing statistics. You could find someone that contracted lung cancer from second-hand smoke and follow them to their deathbed. You could interview executives at Altria and follow all the money they donate to campaigns. Now you and I know that 400,000 people per year die in the United States from cigarette related illnesses. 1 in every 5 deaths in the US is smoking related. Horribe, right? "Are we just gonna let these people kill themselves?" All these things are true. The statistics are obvious and I don't think there is anyone that would argue that banning cigarettes would save lives. Yet I don't want to ban them - and neither do you - despite the fact that the world would be better off without them. Why? Because there are other principles at work besides maximizing life expectancy and minimizing financial burden.

I don't care what doctors make in the US vs the UK vs the EU. I don't care about doctor's salaries one bit. I am in favor of smaller, less intrusive government.

Originally Posted by uno (Post 12641941)

What if a decent % of those 400k/yr could be saved through preventative medicine and universal healthcare?

Originally Posted by ADL Colin (Post 12641961)

You're asking me how I feel about taxing me to help care for the illnesses of people who have chosen to smoke cigarettes? I hope you already know the answer to that.

Originally Posted by Incredible_Wil (Post 12641989)

have you seen Sicko?

If not, I'll find a copy for you. I know you'd probably rather die than watch it,
but I'd like to hear what you think about it.

Originally Posted by Peaches (Post 12641666)

LOL! I don't know where you live, but in my small town community we have cook outs, craft shows, "donation cans" on counter tops, etc. that's raising money if someone who needs it for medical care. Places of worship also donate money to their members who might need it for an unexpected medical situation.

Some of my savings IS for my future health care. My parents and grandparents did the same.

I've said it before: If you want government health care, then go for it, but let people like me opt out. I don't want to pay for it and I don't want to use it.