The only problem with this is that the Government is headed by enough "shitbags" who behave and get paid just like CEO's of corporations, who treat things like health care as a business rather than a service to ensure people are healthy. What's more, there is less accountability in Government. Everytime a government beauracratic body gets in trouble, nobody takes a fall. It almost seems like every other day some government official gets busted for something or another and is able to resign with his multi million dollar severance package intact.

Quite frankly I'm not sure which option is better, but I do believe it is a fact, as Loryn said, that Americans aren't border jumping into Canada to get healthcare. It seems they do, in the end, get the care they need at home whether they can pay for it or not.

Thing is, people are not responsible with money which is why we have enormous credit card debt. If taxes are reduced and put back into the hands of citizens, those citizens aren't going to save that extra money for a rainy day when they get sick and need to pay a hospital bill.

I don't know enough about the history of healthcare. Was there a time in say, Canada, when it didn't exist? Were things so much worse/harder for Joe Blow to get treatment at that time?

that's not true .. people do cross the Canadian border and use addresses of friends to get free health care. they even gave an example in the Movie Sicko. As for Mexicans coming over your right. they don't get good treatment in there country but they are also dirt poor and in the US you can get coverage if you are very poor. but a guy that is just able to buy a house and work 7 days a week can't. it's a fucked up system.

I haven't seen the movie yet. I look forward to it. Are there any stats on this phenomenon?

Likewise there are tons of Canadians who buy drugs in the US because they're too expensive in Canada.

Interesting that not one person living in a country with universal healthcare wants to get rid of it.

Lets face it, private enterprise cannot be trusted with your health. They are no less corrupt or more trustworthy than government. You only have to look at this industry to see how morally bankrupt private enterprise can be - thieves and scammers everywhere....

Does anyone really want a healthcare system where the dollar is the bottom line? I sure as hell dont.

More votes a-holes.

That's the first time I've heard that and not the other way around.

You're right, it's the other way around. My bad.

Read the book sick, actually the costs are much cheaper when the goverment runs it. The Chairman of united health care gave himself a half billion dollar bonus,the government doesnt give bonuses and other bullshit like Tv advertising,print. The Iraq war has been so expensive because they have been privatizing this war.

The problem is in most countries the government works for the people because they fear getting tossed on their ass. In the US the government controls the people for the most part. Canada is getting closer to this as well.

blank message. Poster corrected himself.

Very true :thumbsup Can't say about Canada, but smell a few Euro countries are sliding that way as well - but nothing like the US. There would be riots in the streets if they pushed their luck :winkwink:

As posted above by another person this link shows you the per capita spent on health care by the governments of the America's.
http://www.who.int/whosis/database/c...nguage=english

Look who spent twice that of Canada..... Surprise Surprise

I dont want to pay for all you fatties ...
We pay people not to work and get fat and have babies with welfare, and now you want us to pay for their bad health as well ?

You already pay twice that per person than that of Canada with your tax payers dollars and thats only for a fraction of your population.

Under the universal system you would be down 40% at least in money spent over time. There would be time where it would be more costly due to trying to get people that neglected their health due under the old system to get healthier and practicing preventative medicine.

People who say they don't want to pay for other people, you already do. In taxes you pay more than any other country per capita. In insurance costs you pay more every couple years in dues for every person in your HMO that got very sick and cost them more money then they planned for their 4th quarter profits.

Mike .. hit me up on ICQ when you get a chance.

I suppose you have a valid point there.

Let me share another story with you, my Dad is a republican and he was always people going broke from health care its liberal bullshit. My Dad had started with a new company 5 months ago,did so well they had him interview for a management job ( my dad works in the ins industry).Well then the cancer came,he gets a call from his boss at the sales meeting we all prayed for you and in the next breath HR has to talk to you. Hr says we are putting you on short term disability(6 weeks) then your terminated and your health insurance is canceled you can cobra if you want. Now he is lucky he is being switched to my moms plan.Now in a family where the hubby only works, they are in a world of shit in the middle of cancer and God only knows what the cobra would of cost. This really opened his eyes.

If there's a family where only the Dad works and the Dad is out of a job, then why can't the wife work then?

I am betting that his COBRA would have cost less than what they are going to pay out for his cancer treatment.

I'm amazed by this response because i know your not some young girl that doesn't know the ways of the world.

lets say his Mom hasn't worked in 5-10-15 years and has been raising kids and taking care of the house. she is in her 50's now. you think she can just run out and get a job that will not only pay all there bills but also allow her to take care of her sick husband. hell it took him 30-40 years to get to where they are in life, I'm sure she can run out with little to no work experience or skills and pick up right where he left off.

And yes the Cobra would be cheaper but if you are a middle class person living basically paycheck to paycheck like most middle class your not going to be able to afford the Cobra either. many families lose everything they've worked for because of that exact situation his parents are in.

Tony ... I wish your dad the best .. in most countries a man works all his life and comes down with an illness like that and his government and countrymen would make sure he doesn't lose what he's worked for and can get the treatment he needs without debt and worry.

Thanks Mike,your a good guy and very right.

Its often said you can judge a society based on how they look after their elderly . Maybe western society is on the decline ?

You know what...i keep hearing about how taxes would have to be increased to bring universal healthcare to the USA, blah blah blah. And even though i don't want that ofcourse, if you think about it, with all the fucking high-ass healthcare rates i pay right now for my family, it would mostly likely come to being the same cost anyway. AND, no matter how much i currently spend right now as is, they still can deny me treatment on top of that...lol. Decisions by a CEO = Fucked....that's nothing new.

I can't give a true opinion as my research is very limited...ie; how much taxes would be increase, as compared to what i pay a month for health in it's current state, etc etc. Would be interesting to see...

lol..maybe? US society health care for the elderly is so fucking disgusting that words can't even make light of it. I witness this first hand with my girls father and all the issues we went through for 4 years up until his death. The best insurance, didn't make a difference...ppo, hmo AND motion picture....they fucked him every which way and then fucked him so more. You guys have no idea.

We got a grade A lesson from the "school of hard knocks" on how the healthcare system works (at least in California). It's nasty, it's disgusting, and it's embarassing.

I get my health insurance through my wife's work. We just got married and previously I was her domestic partner. That made for interesting calls to HR & the insurance companies -- I basically had to stress that I wasn't gay.

Bumping to see if we can find one person who lives in a country with universal healthcare who thinks their country would be better off without it.

Surely they exist?

Really sorry to hear about that mate ... and hope things work out :(

I actually think 'sicko' has the potential to force a few changes due to public pressure. Even being an Aussie I was pretty shocked at what I saw on it.

Not sure if you've ever had to make an extended stay in the hospital. Insurance companies will ALWAYS try to get you to stay less time, will always try to push against tests, and will always try and save a buck.

I've had the top of the line BlueCross/BlueShield insurance since college. I had to spend 2 nights in the hospital and the insurance company threatened to not pay for the 2nd night because they didn't feel it was necessary. I was just listening to what my doctors thought was best. It took a couple months of fighting with them to finally get them to pay for a portion of it.

I'm not saying I support national healthcare, but saying that insurance companies don't tell doctors what to do is just being blind to our current healthcare system.

COBRA is only 18 months. On top of that, there isn't a health insurance company in the world who will accept someone who has cancer.

The far right loves fetuses but healthcare for a person thats already born?

Forget it. :1orglaugh

I think the poll results from countries who have universal health care speaks volumes.

I would venture to guess most of them have systems that are not perfect yet they still wouldn't trade it in for the HMO system.

Agree, but yes - it's not surprising. I come from one of these countries and you are correct in that nothing is perfect - but would never dream of giving up that system. I've also lived in other countries with universal health care and they also provided an excellent service.

Probably the fundamental difference is tied to a profit element with HMO's - they exist to earn money and not surprising they try to maximize their bottom line - along with insurance companies.

It has probably already mentioned - but the main users of heathcare are the elderly and it is important that they get a good level of healthcare without having to concern themselves with money.

I am in favor of smaller government in general. Shrink the military, shrink healthcare, shrink taxes, keep the roads. I am not a big fan of the government "protecting the people". I am in favor of people protecting themselves. Of course, this is not realizable 100%. we need some military, some healthcare (innoculations) but I would prefer that we have less than we have now. Not more.

So where does a person who wants to shrink the government make cuts? I'd say these are our top candidates for sure making up over 80% of the US budget.

(2006 budget)
Health and human services 23.1%
Social security 20.5%
Military 19.2%
Treasury 16.6%

Compare these same items to 1962 for kicks.
Military 47%
Social security 13%
Treasury 7.9%
Health and human services 3.3%

So yes, I'd shrink the military. I'd shrink healthcare. I'd raise the age of retirement. I'd definitely cut down over at the IRS.

Still looking for this person.

Anyone? :winkwink:

A lot of people have posted in favor of universal health care using the point that they want doctors, not insurance companies making decisions.

It might work in some other countries, but the last thing I want is some far right slanted government (like we had for the first 6 years of W's admin) deciding that since the church says abortion is bad, and we should only teach abstinance that abortion and birth control are no longer covered by our health care system.

Even better, I do not want the "approved" and paid for proceedures and medications to be determined by which company sent the most money to the current administration's campaign.

I have dealt with the US Health care system on pretty much all level, as a welfare recipient as a child, as a soldier, as a HMO member, as a person without coverage, and as a person with a GOOD health care package.

I have never been denied treatment anywhere.

Yes most insurance companies suck to deal with, but dealing with the government ALWAYS sucks more.

:thumbsup

Interesting map.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../94/Health.png

Ask 29 people on welfare if they want to get rid of the welfare system.

Results? 29 no, 0 yes.

Why? Cuz China, Russia, Saudi Arabia and Argentina all have some type of universal healthcare?

Nice straw man argument.

In reality, people see the value in the system, how it makes their society a better place and that it works better than the alternatives.

But I suppose you would have to live in a country that had it to understand that.

Yeah, its amazing the countries that can provide health care to all their citizens, even many in the second world.

Perhaps what is more amazing is some of the ones that can't.

Hardly an argument. We here in the US call that humor. look it up ;-)