You are sooo correct Wired Guy -- every industry that's derived from a sales standpoint has the run of the spectrum -- and it's all about what sort of system people running the businesses want to manage.

In economics tho -- there is the law of diminishing returns -- and I would guess that some companies in adult have already hit that threshhold and are on the sinking side of it --

which is fine, they'll either cash out or clear out, and what's left will readjust itself to the market and correct.

If affiliates spent more time looking at the totals on their checks and less time looking at their stats, things might even out too :)

Yup, webmasters have the same issues to look at as well. I used to have an enourmous ROI % last year before the January Internext. Shortly thereafter, it plummeted. So since then I've been working on getting volume of traffic rather than improving ROI. So to speak, I am changing from the low volume/high ROI model to the high volume/low ROI model. I find the high volume model to be less risk though in the long run.

Everyone (webmasters and sponsors) should always evaluate their ROI's to see what works best for them.

WG

Problem is, you are comparing apples to oranges.

Dell sells computers. So does Joe's computer shack down the stret from me . . . their business models/plans are quite different.


My old site was like yours - no trials, no tricks. But I will say you might try experimenting with removing your no re-bill option . . . if you have a quality site and a good processor you'll make more money.

I am confused by TheDoc's contention that I am talking Apples and Oranges.

Most corporate sites have things like...
Free trials with tricky expiration,
Free trials with instant cross-sale,
Free trials with obfuscated rebill,
Confusing upsales,
etc.

My site has...
Non-rebilling option,
No cross-sales,
No small print.

So, yes, the sales models we are using are totally different. However, how is that a relevant concern? I know they are different, that's what I am talking about! If they were the same, I wouldn't have said anything.

What I am trying to say, first of all, is that the only reason to offer such bullshit is to impress affiliates. You can make just as much money from your viewers by offering straighforward and honest billing options. So it isn't about conversions, it is about volume. I don't think any of you really think that pricing like that draws in and keeps members.

That leaves the issue of traffic, of course. If you offer deceptive bullshit and impressive numbers to your affiliate webmasters, then they get the feeling that your program will convert well for them. The thing is, you got there by deceiving the viewers. And, to some extent, you're suckering the affiliates as well. Tempting them with cookies instead of proving yourself with good conversions. That makes you an Infomercial (now with free ginsu knives), not a Prestige Brand. People may try you out, but they won't stay... just like the viewers.

But wait, there's more! I guess my point is that the big players have started a bidding war that they can't survive. They keep offering more and more ridiculous payouts, to lure the webmasters in. Great, for now... but we can already see what is happening. People have to include tricks so that their great offers don't put them out of business... and worse, they have to shave (or think they have to).

Why not just tone it down? Why let the "everyone else is doing it" logic get to you? Offer good sites. Be honest with your viewers, and treat them like people. Offer your affiliates a solid one-time payout, or a healthy percentage recurring. Then, show them that it works... Get people who make good money to stand up and say so. Let word of mouth do its work. Stand up and say "this is how well our program converts, and here are this month's stats"... Use third-party billing/processing so people know you don't shave.

And, here's the cool part. If you do business like that, you can stand up and ask the other bigboys why they aren't doing the same! You can make it clear that they need to cheat to win, but you're making yourselves and your affiliates rich without tricks.

Oh well. I can dream. In the meantime, I hope that corporate porn tactics are driving people to my sites as a refuge. Eventually, such tactics will ruin all of our reputations, involved or not. When that happens, the floor falls out from under us. Just remember, it is your constant struggle to outdo your competitors that is dragging us in that direction.

Backov,

Your math is not possible :)

First off 100 first time signups do not retain for 3 months.

As well sites with trials convert better than sites without trials. Which is why most programs run trials.

Running with trials allows you to have more signups which allows you to move more credit card holding traffic that will buy porn to other things or other sites that you own.

My math is rather simple and about as correct as it comes. We ran NO trials for the first 2 years of our program. After we changed to trials is when signups and money started going nut's. You push an extra 50% member base (even if a good % quits before the trial) you will make more money.

If your example was true I think every money program on the planet would drop trials. Reason we don't....More money with trials.

Not sure where you get the problem with the math. The math is in the conversion ratio. Trials convert better. Same thing of why Roger offers $1 1 month trials..Push a huge ass amount of members through the system :) Better ratios make him more money.

gothweb,

I only know of a few people doing tricky shit...We arn't one of them. We have cross sales but they have to click the check box.

We could run without cross sales but having them allows us a few "extra" fun things for the webmasters..Yes like you said to bring the webmasters in. Bonus days, signup bonus, ratio bonus, whatever little promotion we can think of. The ratio of people that take them is not all that great.

We do how ever get very low complaints about them even when we cross sale our own stuff. People know what they are clicking.
We ran without cross sales for years...Now that we have them we can add in a few bonus options. We did no raise payouts or make some fucking wacked money program because of the cross sale.

You are correct though...Most people have it to create extra stuff for the webmaster. Which in the end is what we need and want but I know Roger and Myself are not scamming the member. My chargeback ratios are under 1% even to my own sites that I exclusive cross sale from time to time.

If people did bitch I would remove cross sales as I don't need the heat or the extra support for my guys.

Hehe more stuff :)

We had it "toned down" we used to pay out only $32 a signup. You get the exit if you use the $29.95 per join signup page. We get it if it has trials. .. Know what? Webmasters did not care what the ratio was..They don't do the math they see $32 per join, don't care about the exits, just that it's not $35 or $40 a signup.

Even right now with a $35-$40 payout. I get e-mails every day asking if I will pay them flat $40 a signup if they send X amount of signups..Which I don't.

About shaving? If anyone thinks I shave I don't care. Signup for my site under your ID and watch the signup show up. I can't think of how many times I have told webmasters to do the same thing. If I had to shave I would close my program. I'm not some that needs a new super car or some fucking huge house. I have a normal house..As well as my partners. I have a normal car no super sport car. I love the money yes..But I have employees that damn near make what I do. I offer a nice office, great working conditions, pool tables, racket ball courts, a gym, a cook for the the employees meals, hot tubs, steam rooms, 2 big screen tv's.

Shaving is a way to hang yourself. If you think someone shaves sign up for the damn paysite and bust them. Real simple. We used to let I-bill do the payments and tracking...We changed and we grew 50 times larger.

I guess we must be doing something right as we still have webmasters that used us on the old largecash that was paid by I-bill.

Okay, wait, I dunno if I get all this...


So then the problem for the paysite owners (corporate or otherwise) becomes something sort of like 'the tgp problem' for webmasters trying to sell... expectations have been raised to a point at which nobody is willing or able to turn them back to a more reasonable, realistic level that wouldn't require any jacking.

Surfers expectations of free porn and the ease at which you can find high quality pics in any niche completely free have frustrated webmasters because they're being 'spoiled' and won't break out the plastic.

In response, webmasters look for the highest paying programs with the least restrictive terms, both for themselves and for the surfer - the biggest trial at the lowest price for the highest payout with the least number of strings attached.

So, to compete, the programs go into these 'cross-sells' which may or may not be clearly defined (depending on who you talk to) but which basically act as upsells that provide the high payouts the webmaster DEMANDS because plummeting conversions have made the higher payout mandatory for the webmaster to maintain their ROI.

Is that what's going on? If so, is it just for the 'corporate' or 'cookie cutter' sites that basically provide the same content as every other site in the same niche, or are the sites based on exclusive content and high quality pics and/or vids having these same problems?

Wouldn't that also mean you could blame this whole mess on TGP as well, because if so much free stuff weren't so easily available and accessible, the conversions would be higher and the need for these cross-sells would be negated? And if that is the case, with the need for a huge payout diminished by conversion ratios that go back to where they statistically SHOULD be, wouldn't removing those cross-sells and 'twists' meant to generate that extra income to cover those payouts actually increase the surfer confidence in the product, resulting in higher conversions in and of itself?

Then, to promote retention, instead of giving the webmaster the extra 30 bucks because his conversion rate is half what it should be, these sites could spend the other 30 bucks per member on new content daily/weekly/monthly, actually giving the surfer a reason to spend 40 bucks per month, and the security and trust to do so.

So really, we need to get rid of freebies because they're not REALLY free, it's prepaid by the webmasters and backended to the surfers whether they like it or not if/when they finally do bother cracking open their wallets.

Supply and demand... the demand for porn is there, and the supply of free porn is coming too damned close to meeting that demand for people to make what they should be making fairly and honestly.

Ugh probably babble but I had to try to figure out what this whole argument was about, and find a way to blame the TGPs... seems strangely rational though.

M

PS - I think what makes the hotel analogy sort of a bitch is that even if it IS a scam, it's a 'convenience' fee... it's like returning something and paying them to 'restock' it. You didn't stay in the room, but you DID ask them to hold it for you and NOT rent it to anyone else, and when you DON'T rent it, they charge you that fee based on the fact that if you hadn't reserved the room then cancelled they COULD have made money... even if YOU would have been free. Or something like that. I dunno. I stayed up too long again.

The problem is much larger than paysite/money program owners and free sites. Their is so much 'real' shit going on in this industry and it isnt from most of us money program owners. Aye we do some 'dirty tricks' or spam as well as other wacked tricks.

The problem is well beyond that. A few are billing companies not checking sites and people changing them to cp/beast ect. People like Yahoo with open 18+ sex chat rooms filled with 100's of young teen boys and girls.

It's everything together. Free sites, paysites, billing companies, content providers, chatrooms, 1 on 1 sex, stupid users, visa/mc. It's all it together that is the problem.

From software fuck ups like I-bill have with billing people after they cancel to parents not watching their kids as they jack off to your free teen site cause their was no age verification.

Only way to clean up porn is shut the internet off.

Dude, I used YOUR NUMBERS.

Conversion ratio was accounted for with TWICE the conversion, which was in your numbers. I know that 100 signups won't retain for 4 months (which is the number I used), but neither will the 70 retained signups from trial retain 2 months.. We're talking about averages here.

Rather than saying my math is wrong, when it isn't (remember, I used YOUR numbers and assumptions), then tell me why. I just don't see it, and I'm pretty good with math.

Here's the real reason IMO - the reason that trials are better for you - you get more affiliates. Affiliates are dumbasses and are impressed by things like trials and $40-$70/signup, even when it's not good economic sense for the sponsor, and said sponsor has to pound the member with exits and upsells just to come near that value from him.

Cheers,
Backov

Out of all the long threads this one's got the longest posts...

some people are so... um... unaware here about the current state of the industry where 90% of the sponsors bill the holy shit outta surfers with processing companies located all over Asia and Europe. Lots of "theft" as some of you call this... but it's you who demand fucking $50 per sale, so they gotta make the money back somehow...