Bigbagsofcash has the same payout like sexhit, they are also Australian based, probably associated. UniversalPass also has confusing terms related to free ... but not free :)
49thParallel, you said you wanted honest sponsors, the first 2 in my signature do not have hidden charges. One of them uses entrance and exit console where you don't get paid, that's how they can pay $40/trial, but that's all. :)

Cash..thanks..I will look into these sponsors.

Lexxx...have you been following this thread?...thankfully the general feeling of most that have posted would not be one of "fuck the surfers", as would appear to be the sentiment you harbor. Read the entire thread...perhaps then you will understand why these dishonest practices are the same as outright theft.

Here's a similar scenario..Say you took advantage of a free offer for a product at your local store, say even a food sample at your local grocery..you walk out the door...then when you check your bank statement you find out that the store had installed an automatic credit card card scanner which charged you a $49 fee when you walked out the door for some service that you did not even know you had received nor wanted...same thing as SEXHIT's practices...won't you be steaming mad...it's a scam and it's theft..don't try and justify it.

what if the same store said, upon leaving you will be charged the $49? Also, you're talking about a free sample...wrong scenario...

but have you ever gotten a free magazine subscription? They give you a couple issues for free then bill you for the amount due...have you ever reserved a hotel room (free reservation) and not shown up only for them to have billed your card for 1 day? How well are these things disclosed?

I don't get it.

I offer non-rebilling options. I don't do free trials. There are no hidden clauses or even remotely deceptive tactics to any of my membership options. I haven't even considered such tactics...

Yet, I make my living off of around 1,000 hits a day. I have loyal members, they rebill with rebilling memberships, they buy multiple non-rebilling memberships, they sign up for 6 months at a time.

Why do the big programs, with their high production values and professional staff, not to mention thousands of affiliates, have such a hard time making money with plain and simple membership?

I guess what I am saying is this: Offering free trials, or making $70 payouts, or whatever, is your choice. You could be making good money, even if you hadn't upped the bar. Tactics like those have made it that much harder for people like me to market our sites, and our affiliate programs. Further, it is *not* the only way to make money. It's just a way to make *more*... but can it last?

notice that did you? webmasters only care about that big per signup money...

but, here is the reason they have more problems with "plain and simple" is that when you open per signup, the cheaters crawl out of the woodwork and "newbie mistakes" happen, you deal with a lot more TGP traffic (most TGP webmasters only go for the per signup programs) TGP traffic is mostly "educated" it doesn't matter if you have every nude picture ever shot, most have no intentions of EVER going past the trial membership. With per signup, you're also generally getting more signups, but this can also mean more problems like higher chargeback rates, more surfer fraud, etc.

Well said.

The bottom line is there is only a few ways to get new traffic if you don't have a good hook and mouse trap.
In the long run you will be eating the cheese. If you don't understand the average surfer.

Surfers are much smarter now. unless you have great type-in traffic or search engine traffic.
your getting traffic that know's what their doing.

We have a few good type-ins like erotica.com, wetdreams.com chubby.com etc. but it still doesn't matter cause type in has dropped and people go to search engines now and find all the free stuff
which needs to be converted. or something like that:winkwink:

we even have a site thats 6.95 a month and they still cancel
trust me it has alot of content more than you will ever be able to get thru. so you tell me whats wrong?
www.megaporn.com great site no bullshit

I'm confused. Are you guys saying that the standard megasite methods are good, or that they are bad?

The bottom line is...if you can't make an HONEST buck...then you should just give up!!

somebody just missed a whole section of the thread....

well YOU tell ME...why do you send to a per signup over a revshare? Granted it's much easieer to open a revshare program and there are a bunch of shitty ones....if you prefer per signup, what is it that makes you select who you send your traffic to? 99% of webmasters only care about one thing: "How much are you paying me?"

everything is about the marketing....

I am far from a "fuck the customer" type...I say "fuck the freeloader" but that something entirely different...

Do you have any idea how much Hilton makes from charging people one room night for cancellations? Do you think their shareholders care how much of the hotel's income is derived from that? No, all they want to know: "How much are you making me?"

Cut it how you want..some of us make a very decent living by treating our customers with respect and honesty...the rest of you can continue to kill the industry and ensure that the words "I am an adult webmaster" need to be whispered...

I think most of you seem to be missing a major point here. When a hotel charges you for a room that you booked and no showed, how is that the same as consumer buying from a site he sees and likes and then being 'auto signed up' to a site he has never seen or shown any interest in. I think fair charging of folks cc's is charging them for things they sign up for, not signing them up for a 5 day time bomb waiting to be billed for something they have never even shown any intrest in. What about giving the surfer content that he was looking for and charge him a monthly fee for it. If you deliver what the surfer was/is looking for and collect a fee as long as he/she is using the service what is wrong with that? I still think it is just flat out scamming by signing someone up to a site they have never seen or shown intrest in even if you give them a free few days. I agree that it is probably a great way to make a quick buck, but how many surfers do people such as yourself need to piss off (even if in your mind you are legit by giving them a few days before you charge them for a service they got fine prnted into joining) until nobody is able to get anyone to signup because they are sick of being screwed? I really do believe that people are willing to pay a fee for a site that offers unique and entertaining content, but if people keep getting screwed by fine print they are going to stop buying, we are selling a luxury service, not a neccessity. Like I said earlier there is nothing that I or anyone in this thread can say to make you change your business model, however at least step up to the plate and admit that you are using some fairly shady methods to charge a consumers card.

Rory
:helpme

what's wrong is that it's a megashitload of the same CRAP that everybody else has. It doesn't matter how MUCH content a surfer can get through, it's how much the surfer LIKES the content that he's surfing through.

I'm not a program owner at the multimillion dollar level. I just can't understand how y'all just don't get it.

Spend some of those millions you're making and hire some unknown in-house photographers to go out there and find some unique content. If I had the money y'all had, I'd have people working EXCLUSIVELY for me all around the world.

This has just been our observation we have tried every type of
model you can possibley do
From free trials, paid 3 day trials, low monthly membership like $6.96 a month, 1dollar a month trial and a few others.

we have had a litle content in our sites to buying everything to put in the membership.

and nothing has kept the retention for more that 2-3 months

If you do a few sales a day your average retention might be a little higher. but the average retention is about 2-3 months now.

what I am saying is surfers look for free stuff and they join because its an impulse buy its not thought out. they just got turned on by your site for whatever reason and joined.

there are always exceptions of course.

so look for a sponsor you can trust and who makes you the most overall
Don't look at the payout $ if it sounds to high there is a reason for it.
but everyone has there own formula to profit we make ours off the exits and cross sells that no secret and we pay on the trial so it works out for us. the freefreeprogam has been our best program we have built so far.
because most people know nothings free we are a buck for a month
we build programs for the webmasters so if there's something
you guys would like to see let me know:)

Do you think we havn't tried that. I was one of the first to have a vouyer house called therealworld.com it had tons of live cams with audio and tons of exclusive content.
It was also in the news many times. but it didn't matter we charged $19.95 a month for it and people still move on and get bored.
they want to see what else there is out here. and they have short attention spans. they just want to spank one out real quik
then when they get the bill they get upset.

I don't know how else to explain it?

A few months? Could it have something to do with the whole feel of the "corporate magasite"? We retain much better than that, and have a few people signing up for a 6-month membership every six months. Personality and quality go a long way... an impersonal megasite isn't going to instill loyalty. We've had people sign up for our sites just to show us support.

I forgot to mention we also had many girls with there own amateur site and a live cam inthere house with exclusive content of there own that we shot for them.

it did retain a little better but not much.

maybe you guys remember chinasbox,sexbrat those were a couple of our real amateur sites.

then what happens is the girls get burnt out and they stop chatting with the members etc. they become pre madonna's or what ever.
we have many niche sites that don't have a mega feel to them.

Like I said we have been doing this for about 7 years we have tried everything.
there is a reason why alot of the big sponsors have the same set up. I'm sure they have tried everything.
the only model that I think was a great hit for retention and still is is Ifriends. at first I thought it wouldn't work per Minute but they showed us differant.:winkwink:

I'm just curious when you buy shoes or even a drink what do you purchase?

what type of computer do you have E machine or HP or whatever?

Sketchers. Mountain Dew. Gateway, just ordered a Dell.

Why? I didn't catch what you're trying to point out, I skimmed the long posts.

I do know one thing, friends who know I do porn bitch at me because of tactics that the "free" AVS sites use, and even other pay model sites. Furthermore, they make it quite clear that they have little faith in porn sites, solely because they know they're going to get scammed.

The same people that do this shit are the same ones who bitch about free sites and TGP's. Go figure. People go to The Hun because they trust him, no scams, no nothing. They're skeptical of paysites because of their previous shitty experiences.

I'm not accusing anyone here, just stating some observations.

with the hotel, you're getting charged for something you never even used....THAT is shady....I agree some of the sites crossbilling could use better disclaimers, but I'm not about to tell anyone how to run their business...

actually, we don't use shady methods at all...but because we are a partnership proggie, we don't get the same number of webmasters as other programs, but that suits us fine...we'd rather work with affiliates who want to make money with us long term, but there don't seem to be many. Hmmm, I wonder who the quick buck artists are? those who use "shady" practices...or those who want that $35-40-45-50 signup regardless? How shady is giving away from free porn to minors (like TGP's do)?

I buy comfortable shoes. Don't worry about brand... just something boring, black, and leather that doesn't crush my fallen arches. ;)

I buy a lot of weird drinks... organic colas, grenadine, fruit juice... Some brand names, some based on experience, some because they are on sale.

And, of course, my computers are Macs...

I get what you are saying. People like brands, because they are sure to get something they can trust. However, that only works if they have had a good experience with that brand before.

Brands arose because of really low quality around the turn of the century, mostly. People never knew what they would get. With coca-cola, for instance, you knew every bottle was the same. We see the same thing now with McDonalds... it isn't the best, but it is consistent... and the rat tails in the bottles are more rare now. ;)

However, think about how this applies to porn... People don't want a faceless corporation. They don't want just consistency. They are looking for a personal experience... They are masturbating, for christ's sake! Would you wank over the golden arches?

So if you want to do well, you need personality, and you need the *consistent* experience you give them to be really great. Otherwise, your brand has no value. (Not targetting anyone in specific here, it's a general point.) With Porn, you have to at least be an Apple or a Saturn... You can't be a Hyundai or a Packard Bell.

No shit

when we went to an active model and paid $40 with a paid 3 day trial and no cross sells. up front no bullshit you get paid when we do or when it went to a full membership.

we lost half our webmasters who wanted to get paid on the trial.
that was a bad move on our part now we pay on a $1 trial for a month that is very easy to convert and its hard to beat.

like i said look who makes you the most money don't worry about the pay out. try everything out and see who makes you the most $$$

How at all is getting charged for something you didnt use and getting charged for something you never had any knowledge of the same thing? Sure you probably mention it in your fine print, but we all know that most folks dont read the fine print (and in my opinion they shouldnt have to read pages of bs just to make sure they arent being signed up to other sites). The hotel may charge you for something you didnt use, but at least the hotel didnt make reservations for you for your next vacation and then charge you for not staying even though you never made the reservations. If you dont see the difference in those 2 scenarios then please put your right hand behind your head and bang it against your monitor. Repeat if neccessary. :warning

RogerV :
You seem to continue to try and convince everyone that your scamming is neccessary because you have tried everything else and this method works. No one is trying to tell you how to run your business as I said before, you will run it how you feel and use the methods that you choose. However the fact that its the only way that you can be successful doesnt change the fact that you are still scamming consumers. You may make millions using this method and sit on some beach somewhere and never worry about anything, which is great and more power to you, but the fact is that you scammed a few consumers along the way to make those millions. So please dont try and act like the "Ya I hate scammers" guy when you yourself are doing a bit of scamming yourself.



Rory
:helpme

Check out our operation before you say we are scammers

and our free trials that rebill at a full price are not in fine print
so check out what we do before you post.
if they can't read thats not my problem.

Join our site and check it out for yourself thats what I do on other programs. or can you not afford a $1

but I guess we all have our own opinions.
I'm just trying to shed some facts from our experience.

what is your experience? and what do you deem exceptible?
enlighten me

consumers are used to reading fine print and if they don't they get screwed buy everything they have purchased if they were not careful. the thing is they signed something or paid cash.
when was the last time you bought something do you read all the fine print and if not do you get your money back or just store credit?
when they buy it with us they don't sign on the bottom line so they just cancel and chargeback. so who gets screwed?

Just because we have agreat converting program doen'st mean we are scammers. we just figured out the right formula for now

:thumbsup

Rory what is your program and sites i would like to check them out.
either post it or email me [email protected]

As many of you know, Real Audio announced a couple of weeks back that they are not adverse to adding an adult channel to their line-up. (PR speak for, "we ARE adding an adult channel"). It just shows the sad state of our industry when I, as an adult webmaster, would join their site long before I would join many of the programs flogged on this bbs. They've built a reputation for quality and honesty...and that goes a long way.

And yes, I would and have joined Amateur Pages in the past. Proving there is profit in honesty and good marketing.

P.S. For those of you have not followed this entire thread...which I started...yes, at the start Pornkings did look guilty of a certain "scamming" practice. I for one am satsified that he was able to clarify the situation , and does run a acceptable program. SEXHIT on the other hand does not. Of course...in 4 days when my test account Trial Period at Pornkings is over...I will attempt to cancel it...if I run into any obstacles, believe me, I will certainly be the first to blow the horn. But for now, I will take Roger at his word.

...Crazy people!

Goth and Roger are really talking about two different things.

Goth your site shows retention better because you do not offer a trial. It is easy for most any paysite to hit 3.5-4.5 average retention ratio because their is no trial.

You add in a trial and it drops it to 2 months..If your lucky.

Once your site is at a point of massive amount of content, exlcusive series, good video, something that makes it worth the money people will retain a tad longer.

Even from site to site within the same niche and same content will retain differently. Colors, looks, ect all factor in.

I think roger is talking about his paysites. Which are trial based. If Roger does the math after the trial the rentetion is stupid high which he knows.

Goth your site is totally different. Their is no trial so ofcourse your retention is going to longer.

We have exclusive content, personal bios, chat boards, live shit, interviews with porn stars, everything to make our site(s) more exclusive. The only improvment we saw was the trial to full membership ratio. Our big dick sites out convert and out retain our teen sites while our boobsite which is almost all exclusive content does the worst out of all our sites. Is it the look? No our members area all have the same layout with different graphics.

I have not seen anyone in years that is doing over 4 month average retention ratio even with no trials.

2% of all members forget...That helps :)

Now you might be thinking then why have trials. Well fact is without trials you can't convert as well...

So if I get 100,000 hits with no trials and convert 1:1000 I get 100 signups X 29.95 = $2995

100,000 hits convert at 1:500 = 200 X 4.95 = $990
200 at 35% converstion ratio (average) 70 X 29.95 = $2095.50

Add the two together $3086.50 I win with trials. As well I have 100 extra credit card e-mails, more members in my members area to get up sells, sex shops, special promos to stay longer, whatever. I end up with the damn near the same member base growth even with bad ratios.

The main goal for pay per join money programs is to get that trial to full month membership ratio as high as possible as we all know what the average retention ratio is going to be after the trial.


With cross sales they are not blind. They click the button it's not checked by default. Cross sales are normally picked on the niche of the site as well if the money programs did "SCREW" the member they would bitch and the complaints on this are very low. They want it..Reason we know this for a fact is if their is ever an error with a password they want access to that site to check it out. They know what the fuck is going on.

As for paysite owners screwing the surfer? Some people yes, the major programs..NO! Epoch/Ibill ect jump our asses for simple password or database errors. I think you have it backwards...It's members screwing us. Fucking charging back saying they never used the site when we know for a fact what date and time they used the members area. Reqeusting refunds under the same thing...Members fuck paysite owners 10 times worse than any paysite fucks members. For the most part :)

Jesus Roger , how many times are you going to try and switch focus to something else such as my programs, etc. Iam not trying to stab at your manhood or whatnot, I agree you are a big timer successful multi millionare, I am not disputing that. All that Iam saying is that I really dont think that there is anyway that you can say that signing a consumer up to a site they have never seen or shown intrest in even if they have a 5 day period to cancel if they happen to notice they were enrolled in some great program. Tell me this , would you be pissed if something like this happened to you : Say you order some fitness equipment online and in the fine print they hide down on the bottom of the page that they send all there customers a set of 40 fitness videos that they charge your card $300 for unless you go to igotscammed.com and enter your order number in 5 days. Tell me that wouldnt piss you off and I will at least know where you are coming from. Please though dont say that you read every fine print of every document in your life and that you can recite the fine print on the terms on the metal sign in the parking lot at Safeway near your house. I believe it is the responsibility of the merchant to treat consumers fairly and all I want to say is that IMO I believe that people who charge someones card for a membership to a site that the consumer has never seen or shown intrest in is scamming the consumer. If you can however say that you think that charging someone for a site they got 'fine print' enrolled to is 100% legit than I can suggest seeking some mental help.

Rory
:helpme

The thing that I find madding is, after starting this post, I have visited a large number of sponsor sites. It seems to be the industry norm to offer free trials for one amount of time...ie...5 days...then in the small print Terms and Conditions say that the cancellation of the trial must occur 1 or 2 days before the end of the trial, or else full subscription fees will be in effect.

This is what I meant by fraudelent practices. A 5 day trial that needs to be cancelled in 3 or 4 days is not a 5 day trial...it is a 3 or 4 day trial...this is an obvious attempt to mislead the consumer...this should be ILLEGAL...how can anyone not agree that this is simply theft!

And no, the fact that SOME consumers will try to chargeback legitimate purchases does not justify "screwing" the consumer.

49th :
Im by no means saying that I agree, but technically if you get access to the site for 5 days (whcih you will be able to access the site for 5 days), you are technically getting 5 days of access therefore a 5 day trial. I agree its a wording issue there that I agree is very deceptive, however it is in theory giving the consumer a 5 day trial. He gets a peak for 5 days, however he has to read the terms to figure out that he has 3 days to decide if he likes the site to avoid being billed. Like I said, by all means I think that is using fine print to use 'creative' wording which does put a sour taste in the consumers mouth.

Rory
:helpme

Yes, but Rory, then they could say a 2000 day trial if they wanted to. Since you have to pay on the third day, your subscription starts that day...so the trial is in fact only 3 days. And you must agree that any intelligent person reading a 5 day FREE trial would be correct to read this as ...I get 5 days to view and 5 days to decide...

Anyhow, I did my part...I have gone in and removed all links on all of my pages to any of the sponsors that I feel are running a program that I myself would not join. Talk is cheap...being able to sleep at night with my conscience is priceless.

I do agree with you about the trial having to be canceled before the 5th day of the free trial but that was a typo mistake that was made on epoch's pages that no one caught and it will be changed.
it was across the board for everyone using cross sales with epoch
they did not get billed if they canceled on the last day of the trial.

It was an honest typo on the terms that none of us caught
except for 49th:thumbsup
Epoch was made aware of it and it is going to get changed if it didn't already happen. Those T&C are on epochs side not ours.
it's in there best interest to correct the T&C
I hope I've cleared things up.

Roger...and that's exactly why I retracted my earlier posts...you came to bat and you cleared the air in the public. I personally wish that this thread had died a while back or that those who can not defend their practices ...like SEXHIT...would take the beating instead of you.

P.S. You convinced me on the honesty of your program. I put up a few links tonight to test the waters..

Thank you:thumbsup

Because this is my last post on this topic.

I hope people read the thread and not just post.
We at Pornkings run a good and clean program.

thank you and I hope you do well.
If you need help converting us hit me up. all my info is on Pornkings

Example www.onlyporn.com its ugly but it loads fast and works

RogerV:
I never intended to say you were running a good or bad program, I just stated my opinion on cross joins and I thought it was odd that you appeared to be anti scam guy when you were IMO doing a bit of scamming/consumer confusion yourself. I dont want you to think I was attacking you or your program, I was just stating my opinion about what I feel confuses the consumer and gives paysites a bad rap. I do however find it odd that a post addressed to you was skipped , however you replied and quoted a post I addressed to 49th. Once again nothing personal againt you or your program, I hope you do very well.

Rory
:helpme

Its kewl This thread started to get confusing

And your right I wish the cross sells never started. but if we don't follow the trend we can't compete with the rest.
because MOST webmasters are not loyal and they go for the higher payout or free trial with the high payout.

that is why we came up with a creative way to Promote our sites and I'm sure many will follow. $1 trial for a month

I'll be honest With the longer trial I thought people would forget to cancel but they don't they still cancel within the day and only a few stick around.But we do a High volume of sales so it comes down to a numbers game.

all I know is if you promote the Porn 4 a $1 a month you will love
the conversions.
the payout is $25 per trial but you convert 2-3 times better than other programs so its like making $50-$75 on the same traffic.

Also my last post...

Rory...just to clear the air...I think SEXHIT's practices and Pornkings practices are getting confused here. Sexhit throws in the automatic paysite membership along with their free trial...all in very small and misleading type.

Pornking's add-ons are clearly displayed along with complete rollover subscription pricing....Since the other concerns have been alleviated, Pornkings practices are fair and no different then a clothing store saying, "do you need a pair of socks with that shirt". Pornking is simply doing an upsell and they are not hiding this fact.

As I said, this is my last post...I just felt since I started this thread, it was only proper that I clarify matters.

I love your posts Doc, very informative. That said, I have a problem with your math.

First scenario: 100 signups x 29.95 = $2995

PLUS 3 extra months retain = 3 x 100 x 29.95 = $8985

Total sans upsells: $11980

--

Second scenario: 200 trials x 4.95 = $990

70 (35%) retain past trial and retain 2 months: 70 * 2 * 29.95 = $4193.00

Total sans upsells: $5183.00

---

Now tell me, why are you offering trials again? We sure don't, and we love it. Trials suck ass.

Cheers,
Backov

Oh good lord, does it take a girl to say it?

Its not about the money after a point its about being the biggest or bigger than so and so.

Program A runs off at the mouth about how they have conversions of 12 joins to 1 surfer.

Affiliates jump on board.

Program B says they'll pay 3 billion dollars per free trial sold.

Affiliates jump on board.

Program C says our ratios are good and we pay a reasonable amount. We aren't the best in our own stats versus other peoples own stats and we don't pay out a ridiculous amount, but we are steady.

If people don't know you, no one jumps on board.

You have two choices in this business, margin or volume and they are proportionately equalizing.

If you can do 10 joins a day but you only make 10 bucks off each join, BUT you can do 1000 joins a day and make 1 buck off each one, what are you going to do? And if the only way to get to that 1000 joins a day is to pay more or whatever, I guess that's what happens.

So then programs D, E, F gotta raise the bar, and its another of those vicious cycles.

And all this is befote you take into account cheating webmasters, smarter surfers, and an oversaturated marketplace.

In the end tho, it comes to a point between big programs where the dollars are a game, the number of joins are a game, and the rest is irrelevant.

In the end tho, it comes to a point between big programs where the dollars are a game, the number of joins are a game, and the rest is irrelevant.

kimmy kim I didn't realize how informative you were:)

Your right like I said in my post above its all a numbers game and the margins get tighter all the time.

Its to the point where we have to do High volume with high conversions and payouts to profit a little.

What's scary is some programs run at such tight margins that the only way to profit is to shut the program down one day and not pay webmasters. scary thought
example some company generates 1 mill a month but pays out webmasters 900,000 a month not counting overhead he might be in the black.
turns his program off and walks away with millions.

thats why i say get to know your sponsor if there hiding from you
there is a reason for it. Its alot easier to disapear and start all over again. think about it.

this is something that we talk about behind close doors all the time. which big company will jump ship first.
competition is tuff not like it used to be 2 years ago.

webmasters still expect to make as much as they did 2 years ago or even a year ago.
If you can't pick up the phone and call your sponsor somethings up.

proportionately equalizing... wow! Big words. Just teasing, you hit the point right on. Make bank on low profit/high volume or high profit/low volume... seems to be the cardinal rule of business in general, not just this biz.

WG