My sentiments exactly.

Hey Kimmy

Wassup with me

Workin like a bitch - geez, I just wish the rules with billing would stand still for 5 minutes so I can get a goin with my major projects

Right now though, two proggies are about to hit the street using Multibill. Mine and one of my best friends

So the big system is a comin - 4 sure

Just like all lthose people who get 30 minutes of tuggin time for free - oooohhhh bugger, back to my Tim Tams ;-)

Hugs
Dan

Hi,

Just think how great life would be if us billing companies and webmasters could convince EVERYONE not to offer trials anymore. Disputes would drop tremendously and we would all make more money....

But seriously folks;

We have merchants who offer 30 minute trials for some time (over 8 months) now with mixed results. There are definitely more disputes and huge increases in customer service needs. If offering a 30 minute trial, we recommend not billing the customer for an hour or two to give a little slack for the cancellations. I can be lucrative if you do it properly and keep increasing the overall transaction volume to offset tthe increased chargebacks. However, I would not personally ofeer it on my own pay sites. A 3 day trial is my recommendation and more of our merchants have great success with 3-5 day trials than any other method.

Mitch

For once I agree with Mitch.

Bah, let's just try it all and see, stop the IF's And Butt's!

Try it and if it doesn't work, well woopy Dink! Go back to the normal shit!

:)

have fun.

What's gonna happen is the sponsor will have a valuable email address to follow up on. The surfer will cancel the 30 min. freebie and then be offered special deals or a membership on another site which the webmaster gets no credit for and ends up working for free.
I get Fucken pissed when I see a box on a paysite asking for the surfers email "to get free shit by email" Yea right! Who gets Fucked? Boycott any of these bastards who pull this shit!
Sounds Like bullshit to me!! What the fuck benifit is the webmaster possibly ever get out of these cancelled surfers?
You can damn well bet someone else is from all these porn surfers with CC's who might just want a slightly different site for membership. See the light?
Oh well go ahead and keep fucken the stupid ones then when the webmaster complains about his trials converting you can blame his traffic or promotion, because the surfer came from there. Some fucken sponsors are getting so bad that they don't even wan't your site to convert they would rather have it convert in the POPUP HELL EXIT that you probably don't make diddly from. Imagine that! I'd move my shit in a heartbeat when this happens! What Next?:mad:

yup yup

and soon the 35 dollar per 30 minute trial signups sponsors will come along.

LOL

The razors will be working overtime when that happens.

Chargebacks are only as bad as the paysite...Our shit has always been under 1%. You gota give the webmaster what the site says, make sure the username/password process is easy as shit, offer your own support that answers e-mails and use the processor's support. We use Epoch.

When we moved to Epoch we saw a 20% increase in sales and the bottom line is MONEY.

If most paysites would pry into the members more they would find out why they get upset. Here is the number one issue. The free site webmaster is using their own content...In a gallery let's say. They click to our site and signup and can't find that content. That pisses them off, they wack off, goto sleep, 1 month later they chargeback cause it isnt want they wanted.

Every processor has issues or has had issues.

I-bill not paying on web900 and down all the damn time.
CCbill goes down for us more than Ibill is down.

Watch your recurring counts with CCbill and Ibill...Watch it on a custom webmaster program. Notice that BOTH will loose track of rebills to webmasters..Oh shit did I say that? Not really to webmasters but they wont tell our system when they cancel. Or hell wait..3 days AFTER 30 days they rebill. Even at times the person doesnt cancel and it tells us they did killing the username/password which creates problems for us

We did not notice this issue on the stand alone program but we did when we went into custom code. That is why we don't use them as a main processors anymore, why when we left our sales went up and our recurring base started to GROW.

PayPal loads ISO images and the stupid img key is case sensitive.
Epoch has a bad history of not paying.

After that I cant tell you about netbilling or jetis or any of the others. 2000 charge seems to be ok.

Epoch had problems in the PAST. If all of us looked in our past i'm sure we have all fucked up at some point and some of us even in the adult business.

Epoch has unfucked their business and is running solid now. Our charge backs are low, money comes in, they work with us on special features and all is good.

With the 30 minute deal you guys are looking to big. Yes some webmaster program will probally come out with 30 minute free shit and pay $20 bucks..But think of it more as a way to get e-mails or run a small paysite. 30 minutes free, rebill monthly at $4.95. Valid cc e-mail and recurring membership at the same time.

If you offer them a good members area they will stay.

I agree with Labret but maybe this technology could be used responsibly... remember 30 minutes is the least amount of time you can set this up for...

Consider this example... You give the surfer trial access for 3 hours. Now he can't complain about not having enough time to cancel... Surely he has enough time to review the site in 3 hours -- it's fair... Most likely he will take his time looking at the site -- jerk off -- fall asleep... now if he's poor he thinks ok I'll set my fucking alarm so I can cancel within 2 hours 30 minutes just to be safe so that leaves him 2 hours to sleep... alarm goes off... snooze button... snooze button... LOL

I'm sure there will be a sweet spot -- 6 hours, 9 hours...? You never know until you test it... Since I get most signups at night it seems like that would be an important factor -- maybe a 12 hour trial would work great -- maybe the surfer will plan -- "ok I'll get up early and cancel before I go to do X in the morning" -- LOL he will forget or his gf/wife won't understand the urgency of a porno membership being more important than her and XYZ...

i can't say i like the idea, but I don't say it will fail for sure until I see it tested. I find good for some mainstream services where you have to deal with webmasters, but I'm not sure if it will offer on porn sites. As you already said, the client is always right... If the surfer gets a prompt to leave the site or he'll be billed for a monthly membership it's ok.

The model free->trial->full month membership is worse than trial-> membership.

Not giving the option to the surfer to see when he'll be billed (actually when the 30min has passed) will probably be a big chargeback problem. Personally as a consumer I wouldn't like to be billed without getting such prompt.

Flyntdigital gives 1 day free trial, but they have to rebill at near $50 in order to manage make a profit.... Obviously this model will not work for many sites.

But again this is an option that you decide to use or not. You are the one that will see what works best for you and your webmasters, so having a CC processor giving you this option is not bad, but good.

or maybe it's not since we train the surfers for 30min rides to paysites. Time will show.

No need to further reply on this topic, I think I covered all possible situations :1orglaugh

Well said, Soul Rebel! I agree with everything you said completely! :thumbsup

[Labret],

Damn... I thought you always agreed with me, like Kimmykim. :-)

Mitch

I forget who made mention of three transactions here -- but to clear it up, I don't see where that would be the case. -- If you had 30 minutes free, then a free trial, then a paid recur -- you are talking one transaction, since the pre-auth at the original trial is for the paid recur amount, with the day to rebill on the amount already in the system. If it has to go free trial, paid trial, paid rebill, then it's much less attractive.

Actually I can see how this is an incentive to get the surfer to try a site -- and where IF disclosed properly it could be used to add to the bottom line, for the site owner.

I can't for the life of me though, figure out how in the hell you could pay resellers on the transactions yet. People who pay on active signups I guess could, and of course the % payout people could, but there's no way per join could pay on it legitimately without some serious testing.

haha, I just got back to the states & read this...
what a joke, i am already missing my last two payments from
Clay.
is this another way for me to get screwed out of more money?
if you can't pay out your clients, why should I jump on this new deal?

:321GFY

thanks a lot :thumbsup

I'm always right.

Mmmmmm, more money.

And think how much more than that everyone would make if free sites would quit giving away free hardcore... The surfer would have to pay for play and everyone would make bank.

It IS a nice dream though, on my 100th! :Graucho

Ronin,

Drop me an email at [email protected] and give your company code or affilate ID so I can determine why you might be missing anything. I will get back to you on Monday and let you know what's up.

---Rand

First of all thanks for all of the support for EPOCH from dig, thedoc and everybody else,
you guys know whats up and run great programs and are reaping the benefits of processing with EPOCH.

In regards to the preview product let me clarify a few things:

First of all there are not 3 transactions there are only 2 transactions just like a paid trial

And Secondly you do not have to set the time at 30 minutes, you can set the time
to any amount of minutes you want ie. 60, 75, 120 minutes - whatever

As far as chargebacks are concerned, if you really understood the billing
model you would be a lot less pessimistic. There is a huge difference
between deceptive billing practices (such as hiding cancel links so the surfer cannot
cancel in the X minute time period, or having to email someone to cancel etc..)
There is full disclosure both on the purchase forms and in the email confirms and if you
were able to see the transactional data and cancellation data you would be able to
determine that this model works and that the cardholder fully understands the billing procedures.

And for all of you slamming EPOCH, if you don't like the way we do business then process
with someone else. AND DON'T BEG US LATER TO PROCESS FOR YOU. But if you truly understood
high risk credit card processing and the issues that 3rd party processors face and are going
to face in the near future then you might reconsider what you have posted. There are many
new rules and regs which are coming out now and over the next 2-3 months which are going to
change the way that adult transactions are processed. Do you know what these rules are?
We do, every one of them, is the sky falling, it is for some.

Let the haters hate and the players participate.

Clay
EPOCH
http://www.epochsystems.com/sales

epoch,

the latest comment from you is pretty immature, i would think that a company such as yourself would return some better comments then "hater this hater that"

"And for all of you slamming EPOCH, if you don't like the way we do business then process
with someone else. AND DON'T BEG US LATER TO PROCESS FOR YOU."

slamming? this is business. some people want to be a critic, so let them be, you should be working with them and making them understand instead of putting them down, afterall, they are "YOUR" business.

because people are giving you their opinions, your saying, don't ever come proccess with us. hows that good business practice?

really...i'd like to hear ;)

you still have to sell a membership 3 times to get a monthly :winkwink: chargebacks can't happen if you can't do that lol

Details.

the new rules that will be introduced in 2003 were brought up a couple months ago, nothing new

more protection for online companies from chargebacks

the sky is not falling, it never will, this business will continue to grow, keep an open mind.

I wouldnt try it..I run a paysite and i think its a bad idea..But you never know until people try it out and know for sure...but it wont be me

word. we've always been well under 1% - one of the reasons: free content that ALWAYS matches the members area (just alot more, and alot better)...

i will be in touch, i ended my vacation early to get back & resolve this...i thought this was not going to start happening AGAIN!

pete,

I find nothing immature in my post, maybe there is just some frustration,
my god after 3 years of answering the same damn questions gets old.
I thought it was a very informative post about the outstanding questions
regarding the new product and other issues relating to credit card processing.
As far as a good business practices,
we don't do business with entities who speak negatively about the way we
do business, now is that really immature or just good business sense?

And as far as the new rules in 2003 you mention - you are referring to Verified by VISA,
which is not a rule but a verification method known as 3D secure. EPOCH already has this
implemented in our system, it did not come out a couple of months ago, we have been
working with VISA on this for well over a year and a half. A similar method of
authentication should or will also be adopted by MC.

I am referring to the 19 new VISA rules specifically targeting adult transactions
and 3rd party processors, its about 50 pages in length. Covering such things as
bank teir 1 capital, individual submerchant registration etc.. And then we have
all the new rules for MC. And these rules take effect in November 2002.
The sky is not falling for all, but it is for some. Yes the industry will continue
to grow but not everyone will get to play.

I'm done with this thread for today, it's a beautiful day in Southern california
and I'm looking forward to enjoying it and checking record stats again in the morning.

Clay
EPOCH
http://www.epochsystems.com/sales

Great just another feature for low quality sites that can't
distinguish them selfes from others. If you run a good site
you don't need free/paid trials....quality sells and always will
Sure there will be some extra revenue but it won't cover the
hassle you get in return for it.

I hope this dies soon dialers have done as bad enough already.
When start people to focus on quality and retention instead of
finding new ways to milk the last penny out of ignorant surfers.

Oh well.....I guess this will pass just like the other crap we've
seen come by.....can't wait till the big bang comes which will
weed out all the fuckers and just leave the ones that conduct
business as should.....somehow I have feeling it won't take too
long anymore..

No business is so easy to start with as adult internet and it's so
easy to just screw around and even getting away with it. It's
about time for a big cleanup so this industry can be taken really
seriously by the ones that stay.

DynaMite :2 cents:

If it gets old you guys should have made sure you didn't got
in a situation where people started to ask these question
buddy.....that is just a logic reaction caused by your own action.
Accept it and deal with it

DynaMite

what a bunch of shit from Epoch!!!

who would beg a billing company for anything but lower rates.
you guys are the ones always begging for business back.
the lower rates are not worth it when you don't get paid!!

you don't even do business like a true professional, more like
a true asshole....:BangBang:

Please elaborate. Esp on submerchant registration.

:thumbsup

DynaSpain - :it gets old"... blah blah,


As far as our loss of 30M+, I think we did deal with it, and are in the process of dealing with those who stole it, in fact this is the subject of a RICO Lawsuit now in the federal courts of los angeles. We took a big hit, but I guess no one ever makes mistakes trying to keep these adult websites in business, It's funny how we make the least amount of money but take ALL of the financial risks. Let me know of one other business model which allows this.

I guess all the low quality sites that do 7 figures a month with us are missing something...Maybe you have the answer for them.

Continual negotiations with card associations to allow our industry to authorize and settle adult transactions under mcc code 5967 for the indusrty gets old. (adult video text- just in caes you were not aware of the fact that internet porn has its own merchant classification in the visa/mc system which is 5967, gaming is 7995).




Your right, we should have gone down like all the rest and moved on to other things and left the webmasters with
NO money. I guesss paying back money that we never received is a sign of UN-dedication to our clients.

rorin - don't know who you are, or what you do, but your total of 9 posts of which 5 were today don't lend much credibility, your
not 2 weeks behind in payment. Post your company code or reseller code and lets talk.

"And who would beg a billing company
for processing??" UH, A Company that needs processing? Tried to get your own 5967 merchant account lately, kinda tough huh? Well maybe because the tunnel of love is shrinking at a faster rate then you will ever be aware of.

labrat - Why would I furnish information which may help you in the future when you are slamming EPOCH. You deserve to be shocked like
everyone else. BUZZ... Registration fees are an economic nightmare for those who cannot afford them, thus the skies are falling for more than
one reason. and will fall on more than one entity.

Don't mean to scare anyone but a little dose of reality is in order at this point.

Clay
EPOCH
http:///www.epochsystems.com

DynaSpain - :it gets old"... blah blah,


As far as our loss of 30M+, I think we did deal with it, and are in the process of dealing with those who stole it, in fact this is the subject of a RICO Lawsuit now in the federal courts of los angeles. We took a big hit, but I guess no one ever makes mistakes trying to keep these adult websites in business, It's funny how we make the least amount of money but take ALL of the financial risks. Let me know of one other business model which allows this.

I guess all the low quality sites that do 7 figures a month with us are missing something...Maybe you have the answer for them.

Continual negotiations with card associations to allow our industry to authorize and settle adult transactions under mcc code 5967 for the indusrty gets old. (adult video text- just in caes you were not aware of the fact that internet porn has its own merchant classification in the visa/mc system which is 5967, gaming is 7995).




Your right, we should have gone down like all the rest and moved on to other things and left the webmasters with
NO money. I guesss paying back money that we never received is a sign of UN-dedication to our clients.

rorin - don't know who you are, or what you do, but your total of 9 posts of which 5 were today don't lend much credibility, your
not 2 weeks behind in payment. Post your company code or reseller code and lets talk.

"And who would beg a billing company
for processing??" UH, A Company that needs processing? Tried to get your own 5967 merchant account lately, kinda tough huh? Well maybe because the tunnel of love is shrinking at a faster rate then you will ever be aware of.

labrat - Why would I furnish information which may help you in the future when you are slamming EPOCH. You deserve to be shocked like
everyone else. BUZZ... Registration fees are an economic nightmare for those who cannot afford them, thus the skies are falling for more than
one reason. and will fall on more than one entity.

Don't mean to scare anyone but a little dose of reality is in order at this point.

Clay
EPOCH
http:///www.epochsystems.com

Slamming Epoch? I think you need to read back through the postings there slapdick. I am slamming the practice of 30 minute trials... regardless of who does it first. You, IBill, CCBill, doesnt matter, its a bad idea. Although I do think your a fucking asshole for starting up a practice that will only bring more attention to us from the credit card companies. But what do you care? You'll make your money and run... and thats all that matters right?

I have never used Epoch, would never use Epoch, I dont give two shits about your company. I was around when you fucked everyone.

What makes you think we would believe a con artist anyway?

Clay you are a joke..
we all understand you need a 3rd party biller to process adult content..
as far as the posts, i like to play the fake GFY name game. lol

oh ya, Post my company code or reseller code, i am not a newbie!

you will hear from me and others, i'm sure!

:321GFY

As far as our loss of 30M+, in the process of dealing with those who stole it........ dealing with yoself..:321GFY

i've bookmarked page 3 of this thread. for future reference.

I guess it'd be great if you are so proud of your members area that you KNOW it will retain surfers...

Perhaps if people do use the Epoch option for 30 minute free trials... and get alot of people cancelling within the 30 minutes, they could keep the email addies of those surfers and use them... for mailings. Surfer HAS to have a CC to signup for a free trial, right? Might be some pretty good emails.

Sponsors and opt-in emails rarely go in the same sentence.

labret i love your style ;)

still, why not charge them 3 (preferably 5) bucks for the trial. if they cancel, you'll have both the money from the trial And the email.

and whether trials are a good thing at all is a much more complicated issue.

Clay,

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And who would beg a billing company
for processing??" UH, A Company that needs processing? Tried to get your own 5967 merchant account lately, kinda tough huh? Well maybe because the tunnel of love is shrinking at a faster rate then you will ever be aware of.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not sure about you Clay, but we are setting up accounts for 5967 merchants every day using several domestic and offshore entities. It is not as tough as you make it sound sometimes. Remember, all of our merchants have their own merchant achahahahas and we rarely have trouble settting them up. Third party processing is not the only game in town, just different.

Mitch

Fart

also, new visa / mc regulations don't even effect offshore visa / mc so people with offshore merchants are in the clear, which you'll see alot more of

i think trials are good, you should be able to make sure the site has everything it says it has before paying top dollar. can't expect someone to front $40 and find out there is next to nothing inside. if your members are dropping too quickly this means you have too little content and need to make it bigger so your members want to stay longer. simple.