Kevsh

A few years ago, okay even last year, it seemed that the key to UFC success was the guys with strong ground skills (and in UFC histroy, Gracie, Shamrock, Hughes, etc. they owned)

Lately, the guys who are devastating on their feet *and* can avoid takedowns are taking over:

Chuck Lidell - Definetly a striker and has beaten guys like Ortiz and Couture who had far better grappling skills

Georges St. Pierre - Owned Matt Hughes with his stand-up, though he's got a ground game too. Maybe the best overall fighter in UFC now mainly due to his incredible striking.

Tim Sylvia - Definetly a striker but managed to avoid takedowns vs. one of the world's best, Jeff Monson

Anderson Silva - Destroyed Rich Franklin with his stand-up

Okay, the only other champ, Sherk, is a ground guy but clearly the advantage seems to be heavily in favour of the guys who win with their fists and kicks ... and if the past few events are any indication, it is bringing out far more exciting bouts.

Discuss while I eat breakfast.

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ajrocks

YA man it really does rock. I really like to watch the strikers go to work, Ground and pound just isn't as exciting to me.

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Anthony

There is nothing to discuss.

It's not about grapplers or strikers, it's MMA.

The winner is the better athlete, who is great standing up, on the ground, and in the clinch.

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cess

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...FighterID=3500
Name Georges St. Pierre
Nick Name Rush
Record 13 - 1 - 0 (Win - Loss - Draw)
Wins 6 (T)KOs (46.15%)
4 Submissions (30.77%)
3 Decisions (23.08%)
Losses 1 Submissions (100.00%)
Association Triumph Fight Team
Height 5'10 (178cm)
Weight 169lbs (77kg)
Style Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu <-------------
Birth Date 5-19-1981
City St. Isidore
State Quebec
Country Canada

Wins 6 (T)KOs (46.15%)
4 Submissions (30.77%)
3 Decisions (23.08%)

I don't see how you can call him a striker trying to avoid takedowns.

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Anthony

You made my point for me, thanks.

He's the newest Generation of MMA fighter. Well rounded, and can beat you standing or grappling.

His wins say it all, 6 by knockout, 4 by tapout.

Matt Hughes is a great wrestler that picked up good striking, and good Brazillian Jiu Jitsu, and ruled as Champ for a long time.

GSP made him look like an amateur.

Next generation of MMA fighters who can do it all are GSP and Brandon Vera.

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cess

Another thing, I don't think Randy Couture should have been fighting at age 40+. That really doesn't seem like a smart thing to do and that's when Chuck beat 2 out of 3 times. Chuck's a great fighter I'm not trying to discredit his wins but I think most people can see my point.

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MikeVega

the guys on top are all well rounded guys. I think the days of being a good ground or striker are over. If you can't do both you'll get caught by the guy that can. It is also a Biz and big knockouts make for a good show. these guys are always looking for the big finish. that's what gets them the big money.

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WarChild

Crocop won the OWGP, and is primarily a striker.

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Vegas Ken

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cess

Cro Cop got armbared by Nogueira back in 2003, they haven't fought since then.

Cro Cop also lost to Fedor a year ago.

Name Fedor Emelianenko
Record 24 - 1 - 0 (Win - Loss - Draw) ( 1 NC )
Wins 6 (T)KOs (25.00%)
11 Submissions (45.83%) <----------
7 Decisions (29.17%)
Losses 1 (T)KOs (100.00%)

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pradaboy

Put Fedor in with the UFC and Tim Sylvia would crap his pants and run away.

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Anthony

Cro Cop is now a purple in BJJ, under Fabricio Werdum. The man learns from his mistakes.

One thing 13 years ago you wouldn't think to see, during the Fedor/Mirko fight, a striker (Mirko) controlling Fedor (Grappler) in his guard.

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Anthony

Forget Fedor, Cro Cop is rumoured to be coming to the UFC.

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WarChild

Personally I can't wait. The big strike again Mirko used to be no stamina. Looks like he's done something about that now though.

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cess

I think a lot of guys from Pride could beat Tim. But I won't forget Fedor, I like Pride FC more than the UFC.

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cess

Oh and just for fun...

Tims style.


vs

Cro Cops style.

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Drake

I like watching a good UFC fight. I've never seen a Pride fight. What's the difference between the two leagues? It would be great if they amalgamated into a single league so we could see who the best is.

Anthony

Might get what you wish for. PRIDE FC is having some problems, can't get run on Japanese TV, Yakuza mob,etc...

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Kevsh

I think you kind of missed my point - I did point out that guys like GSP are good on the ground, but how the fights have been won lately seems to lean toward striking, and avoiding takedowns. Look how each won their titles?

I'm not calling GSP a striker, clearly he has a ground game, but it's not how he beat Hughes. Nor how Liddell won his title, Sylvia or Silva.

And yes, it is "MMA" but all won their titles without ANY true ground game in their fights (unless you count avoiding takedowns as ground game!)

Anthony

Takedowns are part of grappling. Without a good ground game, you have no take down defense.

Everything is tied to gether in MMA. the striking is used to setup the shot, the shot is used to get top position, the scrample back up to the clinch is to get back to the ground, or to escape to get back to striking.

MMA is complete fighting.

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RealityWife

LOL...these MMA post kill me. Those pictures do NOT tell the whole story or show the scope of these two fighters skills. No one knows what would happen if these two MMA fighters fought. I doubt Tim would be running for shelter. Sure he might lose but ALL MMA fighters lose some time. In fighting the best does NOT always win and never will win all their fights. There are many variables deciding who wins, training, diet, confidence, skills, mental game, LUCK, discipline, and many others as well. Just because a fighter loses in their career does not make them less of a fighter. Even the best fall in this sport which makes it great. You give UFC fighters too little respect and Pride fighters way too much.

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RealityWife

You forget that Lidell is one of the best in UFC at wrestling. Why do you think the top guys cant get him on the ground to pound him? His ground skills are far more superior that you think. If they were not he would have allready lost the title to even an old Couture. The awesome part is he has developed some of the best striking skills in the world.

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MarkTiarra

A god part of this is the way they run the UFC too though. They stand guys up much more quickly than they do in say Pride and the cage as opposed to ropes allows strikers to force a good grappler into a spot where he can't work. The standing them up thing is a huge difference though. I understand the need to keep it exciting and not have a fight where there is a stalemate on the ground but they stand guys up way more often than they need to in my opinion.

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Busty

"The winner is the better athlete, who is great standing up, on the ground, and in the clinch."

pretty much sums it up

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MarkTiarra

I'm another guy here who does MMA and is a fan too. I think the quality of the fighters and the fights broadcast at Pride in general are far better. Last I saw there guys got paid quite a bit more so they attracted a higher caliber of fighters. Every time I see a UFC guy go over there he gets creamed. GSP is one of the only ones I think would hold his own.

The difference is you see a much more balanced game between striking and technical grappling. They use ropes, not a cage so if they get to the edge of the ring in a ground war, they stop and reset in the middle in the same position. They get more time to work on the ground but they do get stood up if it's a boring stalemate.

And... they have Fedor. He is the Tyson of MMA without the basketcase brain.

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Anthony

Very nicely put, and your post previous to this. Not many ppl know about Chuck Liddell fighting in PRIDE 2 years ago and getting his ass owned by Rampage Jackson, either.

It's an ever learning system, you have to have skills in all ranges of combat. Chuck is an awesome warrior who keeps learning and getting better.

People think just because he's primarily a striker, that he's nothing else. He's got great take down defense, and excellent submission defense. All due in part to him training in Wrestling, and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu.

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Lance69

Wasn't that in a tournament though? After fighting once that night already? I'm not the biggest fan of Chuck personally, but the guy ain't the champ this long because his ground game sucks.

Anthony, when you put this together I got goosebumps!
Well done.

I can't wait to see if UFC ups the ante and signs Cro Cop, I've love to see him fight Sylvia!

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Anthony

Thanks Bro, I appreciate the good words.

I think it's up to us veteran fans to educate the new fans about the sport. Pat Militech was asked to make a comparison of Boxing to MMA on 60 minutes, his answer was "It's like checkers to chess".

It also doesn't hurt that I train in it as a hobby, or you fight MMA as an amateur to be able to give a first hand view and explain what exactly is happening.

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evilangelalex

I agree...p.s. CHUCK LIDDELL IS THE GREATEST FIGHTER IN THE WORLD(for his size)

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MarkTiarra

I didn't know that was on the table. That would be great. A good move for him too because how many times can he fight Fedor? He's got nowhere to go. At least in the UFC he can grab a title and be "the man."

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dynastoned

I'd like to see the UFC throw in fighters like Cro Cop, The Axe Murderer, and that Russian bad ass Fedor. Those are definately 3 of my favorite and most exciting fighters to watch.

Anthony

Wanderlai Silva fought in the UFC.

He lost to Vitor Belfort.

Of course, this is back when he first started fighting MMA, "The Axe Murderer" is a different fighter now.

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Martin3

It's still a new sport and the athlete's are still in kind of a transitional period. In the beginning the ground guys dominated because the standup guys didn't know jack shit about grappling.
Then the stand up learned to alteast be defensive with the ground game and avoid takedowns. Because of the transitions it's kind of gone in waves back in forth. But now we starting to see some of the young guys that are truely equal in all areas.

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Anthony

The reported amount is 2.5 million dollars to fight in the UFC.

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WarChild

They pretty much sum up the skill difference between a giant man with sloppy striking and a K1 fighter with some of the best striking in the game. Yes, someone knows what would happen if they fought, it's me. I'm trying to tell you, having followed Mirko's whole career since K1, Crocop by domination is the verdict 9/10 times.

Luck is a bullshit excuse real fighters never use. Immediately following each piece of good or bad "luck" is the reality: a good or bad decission. Fighters make their own luck,

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cess

I'm not sure if you noticed but I said "just for fun". You act like I'm praising Pride fighters and saying UFC fighters are shit. I didn't say anything like that. As for the pics I posted that shows Tim's sloppy style compared to Cro Cops style.

I could've posted that pic where Tim was actually able to knock Tra out with a left kick too. But the one I posted is Tim's usual style vs Cro Cops usual style.

Sounds to me like you give Pride fighters too little respect and UFC fighters way too much.

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RealityWife

Sorry if it came off that way but I actually understand where you are coming from and also believe that Belfor or Crocop could beat Silvia, but I also believe that UFC has great fighters and until we see Crocop or Belfor fighting in the UFC you cant say for sure who would really win. I think Lidell could knock out anyone in the world in his weight class weather it was in pride or UFC. He is a much better all around fighter since the loss to Rampage. I believe he won a Pride match as well as losing one, which I dont speak about.
I agree with everyone that Crocop in the octagon would be well worth a few million to everyone involved. I bet it would rival many larger pay per view events.

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RTP

Pride is the most superior of all MMA, not just saying that from a fans prespective but from a fighters perspective also, in my mainstream co. we sponsor both UFC, Pride, K1 guys and Pride is considered the top of the food chain by many...at one of the events I remember the Tokyo dome having sold out with 100,000 fans. It's a way of life over there, respect to all but you can't really compare the two, the level of fighter over there is just very, very different. "B" class fighters over there ae considered top talent to many other orgs like UFC, IFL etc.

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cess

It's cool, here's another tim kick for ya.

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dig420

There are other factors that play into this besides just fighting style. MMA is set up to help strikers in several ways. Number one, time limits. A groundfighter has to shoot early and often instead of waiting for it to come naturally, and that is EXHAUSTING. Number two, getting stood up. A grappler, ideally, wants to stay on the ground, he doesn't WANT the fight to be exciting. He wants to keep you down, wear you out, and submit you when you're ready to go. The way the fights are set up now, you have to be in the process of landing a submission from the second you hit the mat until the end of the round or you get stood up. Again, that's exhausting. Grappling is a merciless, grinding, bit by bit type of fighting and understandably MMA organizations want excitement and flash.

WebDork

I dont like the new format - way too many rules for what was originally one of the "purest" sports...

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Lance69

It's only to increase the longevity of the sport and the fighters careers. If everything was the way it was, it'd be outlawed first of all; and second you be seeing new fighters roll in and out like a revolving door no matter how good they are. Not good for the sport.
And if it's not bloody enough for you just look at Edwin Dewees in the Ultimate fighter. I'm sure that'll be enough.

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gideongallery

it is all about the rules
when the ufc first started by the gracies there were no breaks, no stand up
once someone got you on the ground they could sit and wait advancing very slowly until you made a mistake

which made submissions really effective.

the new rules are best for strikers, because it is a lot easier to learn take down defence than it is to learn submission, and take downs.

if you can tie someone up so they are not advancing then you get stood up again.


personally that unanswered strike rule is to arbitrary, it should be a time limit
to many fights are stopped by the referee when they could continue.

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Titan

Pride fighters are better than UFC fighters. All hardcore fans know this. Fedor would destroy Tim Sylvia standing up and really really destroy him on the ground. Fedor could beat any person on Earth alive or in the past.

Fedor > Crocop > Tim Sylvia
Wanderlei > Rampage > Chuck Liddel (lacks ground skills)
Dan Henderson > Anderson Silva (3-2 in pride, undefeated in UFC)
GSP - don't think there is a 170lb weight class in pride
Gomi (a beast) > Sean Sherk

Pride has larger attendance and fighters get paid more.

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Titan

Josh Barnett could probably beat Tim Sylvia as well so Tim would probably rank 4th or 5th in the world.

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rodney25

I agree with you on that, mate. It seems like strikers are recently dominating the game.

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MarkTiarra

I think Nog probably take Sylvia too and even Mark Hunt since they'd both stand up and Hunt is such a beast there. Like someone said above, MOST UFC fighters at the top are B-Class for Pride.

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reynold

I clearly see your point there, mate.