If the processor scrubs then we don't make the sale either. FC stated they have "free" signups with "instant" payments.. They get charged for free signups, you don't make money on them. Now that I know they have free signups this makes even more since. And, only one NATS program is doing this.. And they are honest and clear about it.

Remind me to never use a sponsor with this implemented, id rather be paid out weekly or b-weekly.....

Please note, my above posts are not accusing anyone of anything. I'm simply trying to point out the rather large holes where people could slip the titanic through to get away with skimming some off the top. Is NATS responsible? No, but I'd like to know their stance on it as they've gone out of their way to ensure people didn't steal in other situations. Hell, I even considered a license to NATS, and I wouldn't if I didn't feel it was a good product.

One of the people complaining on their forum was using paid signups and was claiming a 30% non-verified ratio, so it's a little bit of both. Part of that could however be their traffic source and method of promotion.

Thank you for your direct and honest answer, as I stated above, I'm not attacking you nor NATS, I just want to understand as much of the situation as I can from all points of view. It'd be like buying a car without knowing if it had an engine, and if that engine was able to run. Bad analogy I know, but I'm tired.

TheDoc, without being able to see what is going on it the background, there is no way for an affiliate to really know. While we all have to have trust in a program, I would prefer to know exactly under what circumstances I get paid and what circumstances I don't get paid on.

It also opens a can of worms, because other programs could easily adopt the use of this module and suddenly a new level of fraud detection comes into the game, which some could very easily use as the "acceptable" way to skim from a NATS system. Just like programs pushing chargebacks onto affiliates, one program does it, and then everyone else slowly comes in and does the same, pushing the monetary risks of fulfilling a customer after the sale back onto the affiliates.

I think NATS has just created a "full disclosure" skim module of sorts. I can smell the potential abuses from a mile away.

Jact, I have no problem with people raising concerns. There's no reason people should ever be silent if they think there may be an issue. The problem is that GFY has too many people who sit on the other extreme which is just as bad. They just love to come up with conspiracy theories and think the world is out to get them. There is no good at either extreme. An informed discussion somewhere in the middle is what helps things improve and progress.

In short, there are way too many people here who think that we never landed on the moon.

This is a standard, vanilla reply from a program owner. Do you know how many times I went over this with David? Yes, I already know that "everything is fine on your end" http://sexy-celebs.net/hotlink/rolleyes.gif



I don't see how it's any different with paid trial.
A fraud is a fraud. If some is going to card a program, he might as well do it to $35-$40 PPS programs, not you.




You should go check your own forum and read what people have to say.

Yes, I could add it in. But I have paid trials and stuff, nobody would use me if I had this. Maybe if I had a big pps program, but not as a revshare. I don't see any revshare company using this for payment. And don't forget, you have to disclose that you have it in your terms.

CB's / Refunds, ect.. It's really mixed up between the revshare companies. Some do, some don't, some split. Like, I split the epassporte fee, all of $1. But that's me, others do it differently.

Yeah sure, I have nothing better to do than photoshop these up

http://www.darksidedata.com/gfy/flashcash.gif
http://www.darksidedata.com/gfy/flashcash2.gif
http://www.darksidedata.com/gfy/flashcash3.gif


http://sexy-celebs.net/hotlink/rolleyes.gif

Aren't the signups "free" signups mostly?

TheDoc, if 5 or 10 of the bigger nats programs put it in place, you could add it without issue, and suddenly have a nice way to filter off... what, 10%? 10% probably wouldn't piss off the affiliates much (it's security people!), and you could boost your bottom line.

It isn't about any individual program doing it, as much as it catching on as a defacto standard in the industry. Too many things have happened in the last few years that suck the money out of the affiliates pockets, all the while larger program owners run around in fur hats and driving Ferraris screaming "best month ever!". Considering the number of "close to the line" and "way fucking over the line" methods that have been used, I can see this fraud module getting turned into a shave module very easily.

Just one of those things.

What I'd say is that this module is poorly conceived, and even more poorly implemented.

I think that what happened is 1 client of theirs said hey we'll move to your software if you can make it do X, and Nats made it do X and released it to everyone else as well, perhaps without putting enough thought into it.

Look at it this way:

What percentage of "unverified" signups become real-world refunds or chargebacks? That's the REAL number everyone should be asking about.

If 99% of "unverified" signups turn into real-world chargebacks or refunds, then 1% of "unverified" signups are legitimate, and affiliates are losing 1% of that income.

While I have no data, coming from an information security and user profiling background, I can tell you I HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt that this system would be ANYWHERE NEAR that number.

So if the system is 99% effective on "unverifieds", affiliates lose 1% of sales of those. What happens if it's 90% effective? Affiliates lose 10% of "unverified" sales that are actually legitimate.

That starts to add up to a LOT of money, and if there's no way for an affiliate to know they'll eventually get credit for those sales or not, they have every right to be bitchy.

What this module NEEDS to do, is take those "unverified sales", and automatically make them "verified" so that affiliates get paid out on them, after X period of time has elapsed without refund or chargeback.

THAT's what needs to happen.

This way you're saying to the affiliate: Hey we'll give you instant payout on these sales that we're comfortable with. There are a few sales that are a little questionable to us, so we're going to hold those until the regular payout date, when you would have gotten payment for them anyway.

I don't think anyone would bitch about that.

It sounds like flashcash was mostly using this system to protect themselves with their free signups program (from what I understand), but now that it can also be used by programs for paid signups as well, the ill conceived notion of this entire system becomes amplified.

Your stats are 22% not 30%.

And yes. I'm not saying no one has higher %s. Or that your #s aren't higher than the average. You keep saying EVERYONE (or MOST) has a 30% rate. That is completely and absolutely false. The problem is you are impossible to argue with. You did it last night and you did it today. You can't just make things up and use words like "all" based on a few exmaples. Of course the people with bad #s are going to complain. Those with 2% rates you won't hear from.

I am not arguing with you anymore. There is no point when you make up whatever you want and say whatever you want with no regard for the truth.

I have no interest in arguing on the internet. As I said I have a vested interest in solving this problem for you as I want you to be happy with our program. If you want that help please contact me. I hope you do.

We have tens of thousands of webmasters around the world, there are always going to be a handful of them that are upset about something. But the truth is that nearly all of them are doing fine and are happy with the system. You clearly aren't, let's solve the problem.

Yeah, I don't think any big programs will add this to the current system. You might get it added for a new program, maybe with higher payouts or free signups, but not just added in.

Trial Member Areas have been around for 5-6 years, and still 75% of the programs don't have them in, and they make earn the program instant growth.

Whats your point?

Why not? I have nothing to hide, do you?

Why don't yuo address the questions publicly?

22% looks kinda near 30% to me http://sexy-celebs.net/hotlink/rolleyes.gif


So answer me, 20% of my sales are Credit Card fraud?

100 Unverified Sales!

http://www.gaymainstreet.com/TheStre.../misc/clap.gifhttp://www.gaymainstreet.com/TheStre.../misc/clap.gifhttp://www.gaymainstreet.com/TheStre.../misc/clap.gifhttp://www.gaymainstreet.com/TheStre.../misc/clap.gifhttp://www.gaymainstreet.com/TheStre.../misc/clap.gifhttp://www.gaymainstreet.com/TheStre.../misc/clap.gifhttp://www.gaymainstreet.com/TheStre.../misc/clap.gifhttp://www.gaymainstreet.com/TheStre.../misc/clap.gifhttp://www.gaymainstreet.com/TheStre.../misc/clap.gifhttp://www.gaymainstreet.com/TheStre.../misc/clap.gifhttp://www.gaymainstreet.com/TheStre.../misc/clap.gifhttp://www.gaymainstreet.com/TheStre.../misc/clap.gifhttp://www.gaymainstreet.com/TheStre.../misc/clap.gifhttp://www.gaymainstreet.com/TheStre.../misc/clap.gifhttp://www.gaymainstreet.com/TheStre.../misc/clap.gif

"FREE" trials do require a credit card.

I think thats an issue you should contact Buddy about.

Why hasn't anyone answered the question about what happenes to the "unverified" sales money?

Do they get refunded? If not, who gets to keep them?

John? Buddy?

Free signups DO go through epoch/ccbill, the program gets charged $ for the valid cc check. It is a real signup, through the real processors. PPS programs have huge fraud problems already, I'm sure fraud through free signups is even worse.

Sales money? It's a free signup.. If they don't rebill, login, ect.. Why would you make money on them?

Why would it be worse?

Wouldn't carders rather get $40 on a paid trial then $20 on a free trial?

Why difference does it make to them? They're stealing anyway.

Why do carders fraud revshare programs? Because they think they can get away with $10 extra bucks. It isn't their card, they just want the money.

Free trial automatically converts to full sale after 3 days.

I still don't follow you.

Why would free trials be worse fraud-wise?

$20 vs $40 ? what would you rather take?

Anyway, fuck all that.

They want to use that bullshit "anti-fraud" crap? Whatever...

I've already redirected most of my traffic away from them, and will redirect the rest soon.

See, now that is a good question. Maybe they don't rebill the free signup if they don't login, or maybe you do get credit if they rebill. I don't know, a good question to ask though.

Here are my stats since Flashcash switched to Nats

1450 signups
1308 verified signups

But the thing is I don't receive instant payments so the excuse that this extra fraud control needs to be put in place because Flashcash pays instantly does not not apply to accounts such as mine.

Who knows why, it just happens. Fraud is just retarted bad, cc fraud is so bad it's just stupid. I think they will work any method they feel can earn them money, free paid, pps or revshare.

I wish I had more fraud answers for you. But honestly it's bad. 85-90% of my refunds due to fraud members or webmasters. With CB's, most of those members never logged in, refunds is a different story.

Nigga please. I'm pretty sure it rebills automatically even if no one logged in.

That whole log in thing is bullshit too. Surfer signs up holding a dick in his hand and doesn't log it? Right...

there are too many unanswered questions about all that.

It's safe to say, before fraud, traffic quality, ect.. That about 10% don't login for whatever reason. Almost ALL my chargebacks never logged in.

FC is a bit bigger than me, so I'm sure they have a few more problems with it than I do.

Thats a very good point. An "unverified sale" doesnt necessarily end in fraud.

BTW, DarkJedi, you didnt specify any dates for the stats you posted... are they all from the same period? All time? Cant tell if each row is for each site or particular dates. Just curious.

Buddy, please visit your own forum and let webmasters know they are not listened anymore!

Thank you.


ok, how about trusting your affilates who works with your program for years?
how about switching this system for the people you can trust? is it possible?

As for the only program with free trials and instant payments.
What are those Instant payments for if our ratios went down with them. Webmasters need cash first imho.
I can wait till the end of period or make a hold time. Just let me know why others dont do that? Processors are using their ant-fraud systems why do we need another one?

How could you know? You are not reading your forum :)

That's the only question that needs to be answered. A FREE Trial doesn't make any money for the program so nothing to be refunded. But some of us primarily promote the PAID trials and so we'd like to know. It certainly shouldn't be the case that the program keeps the money and we get shafted.

However.. It seems to me from this part of the TOS:

Flashcash pays for sales where the buyer logs in at least once to the site purchased. Based on years of data, if the surfer doesn't log in, the sale will normally credit or chargeback, so no payment is made.

That the policy is to simply not pay affiliates even if the payment ends up being a good one. How long does the surfer have to log in?

I understand the issue of not knowing what the "fraud protection" is doing. For all we know, it could also be monitoring the free to paid conversion and not verifying if a WMs ratio gets too bad. We should at least be informed if this is the case or not.

Flashcash needs to clarify the policies and the TOS.